Sierra-2 Development Thread

[Mag_Neato]

----> 1/21/2014: Sierra-2 are now available. Please click here (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?5577-Sierra-2-Ordering-Info) for order info <----


Ok, I'm going to put this out there.

With all the focus lately on the new Sierra Towers and Center speaker, let us not forget that some of us do not have the budget, and some do not have the space needed to jump onto the tower bandwagon!

So, what if us Sierra-1 NrT owners desire some of the midrange goodness offered by the towers? Would a replacement driver for the Sierra-1 woofer be something possible? Say, more of a mid driver with less emphasis on the low bass, which is usually handled by a sub. Perhaps something similar to the tower mid driver with the required crossover modification. This way we can have more of the mids that the tower produces?

What do you think, Dave? Sound like something possible?:cool:

[curtis]

We talk about something like this at one of the gatherings at the shop. It definitely would not be the Tower's mid-driver. It can not play low enough to cross to a sub.

How low would you want it to go? It would have to go to at least 60-70hz or so to cross to a sub nicely.

Hopefully Dave can elaborate.

[Funambulistic]

Ed,

Way to throw a monkey wrench into my works! ;) Yes, I have been coveting the new towers and, yes, they are out of my financial reach, but I am totally satisfied with my current system (Arcam DV137, Sony BDP-N460 [only reason for two disc spinners is the Sony plays BluRay but the Arcam plays SCAD, DVD Audio and sounds MUCH better on CDs and the picture and sound on up-converted DVDs is no contest] T+A Power Plant, Ascend Sierra 1 Nrt and my trusty Sunfire True Sub) for the first time since 1997 (Adcom CD player, Audio Alchemy DLC, circa 1978 Marantz amp [a beastly 254wpc] Sony ES SS-M5 speakers [you know, those odd, tetrahedronal units made FOR Sony but not designed BY them] and my trusty Sunfire True Sub). Between 1997 and the present, my system has gone through many changes because of marriage and/or divorce, unemployment, ad nauseum. Suffice to say, aside from intellectual longings, I am done (for now, hehe). There have been a select few speakers that have really lit my fire (Proac 1SC, Ruark, Vandersteen 2CE [oy - those are ugly to this day] the aforementioned Sony's and, now the Sierras). To tamper with small monitor perfection is, shall I say, heresy! I do not know what Dave has up his sleeve (I read the thread on how difficult it would be to incorporate an RALL tweeter) but leave well enough alone! My check book cannot afford it. And to deprive the Sierra of it's bass response with the mid driver from the tower - heck, go for an Axiom M22 (kidding, though I did own a pair).

I hope you find this post in jest, for that is how I intended it. If Dave can come up with something better than the Nrt at a similar price point, I'm all in. Doubtful...

John

[Mag_Neato]

I did not mean this as a replacement for the NrT, but as another enhancement/upgrade like the NrT tweeter was. The goal being a cost-effective method of another performance enhancement.

[curtis]

How much bass are you willing to give up? Also remember, cost effective goes two ways. Dave has to be sure he can sell enough for it to be cost effective on his end, he also has to believe the improvement is cost effective to his customers.

[GirgleMirt]

If you use a crossover (with sub) anyhow, it lowers the 'strain' of the woofer, so that should marginally improve performance, probably not up to the dedicated mid's level, but maybe audible? :confused:

I think it was mentioned that the mid woofer wouldn't go low enough... After 25 pages of the "tower thread" and no luck finding the number, I'd say definitely >200hz, maybe even 500hz, which would leave a really big gap between speakers/sub, and maybe even making the mid unusable... Another thing to remember, the Sierra-1 is ported, and the mid has its own sealed cabinet compartment... So again, just 'sticking' it in the Sierra-1 cabinet would probably be all wrong with internal volume and ported vs sealed...

And even if the mid could go down to 200hz, as it was most definitely optimized as a mid and to be crossed over to dual 'bass' woofers, it's performance <200hz (<500 hz or whatever) might not really be viable (not as clean; more distortion; sounds worst) when compared to the Sierra-1 woofer... Making it probably not a good idea as a replacement...

So all of that said, I'd be tremendously surprised if it ended up being a good idea for a Sierra upgrade... Sorry! lol ;) (But I'm not the speaker designer genius though, so hope remains... haha)

[Mag_Neato]

I realize as well as the next guy that it may be an impossible dream, but if you don't ask the answer is always no!

[davef]

Ok, I'm going to put this out there.

With all the focus lately on the new Sierra Towers and Center speaker, let us not forget that some of us do not have the budget, and some do not have the space needed to jump onto the tower bandwagon!

So, what if us Sierra-1 NrT owners desire some of the midrange goodness offered by the towers? Would a replacement driver for the Sierra-1 woofer be something possible? Say, more of a mid driver with less emphasis on the low bass, which is usually handled by a sub. Perhaps something similar to the tower mid driver with the required crossover modification. This way we can have more of the mids that the tower produces?

What do you think, Dave? Sound like something possible?:cool:

OK -- here we go :)

Since work began on the towers, must be at least 3 years ago now --- I have seriously challenged myself on coming up with an affordable bookshelf speaker that uses the mid from the tower and the NrT dome. I have built several prototypes and have had this same conversation during several open house listening sessions with both Ascend owners and non-Ascend owners.

The issue that I continually run into is that to deliver the type of midrange detail and quick transients, the tower mid uses an extremely lightweight cone and the overall suspension / motor system is also very low mass. This mid has the lowest MMS of any 5 1/4" "cone" based woofer I have ever come across and the moving mass of this woofer is actually less than half that of the Sierra-1 woofer. It is the reason why it is capable of delivering tremendous levels of detail with very quick and accurate transients.

Having this low of an MMS comes at price, the mid has a natural roll off that starts in the 180Hz range. I could design a ported version and possibly extend the low end to be -3dB at about 100Hz, but a ported version will not provide the same great transient accuracy and I am not fond of high crossover points to a subwoofer (100Hz etc.)

With that in mind, I built a prototype using this mid, one Sierra-1 woofer and the NrT dome. The problem with this is that there is a significant difference in efficiency between the two different woofers and both the tweeter and the mid have to be padded down by at least 4-5 dB. This 3-way bookshelf speaker, or LCR, would only be slightly less expensive than our Sierra Tower and I was simply not able to get the performance I would have liked. The beauty in the Sierra Tower is that the sensitivity of the dual 5 1/4" woofers match the mid and that matches the NrT dome (and even the RAAL, which has a custom impedance / sensitivity profile for us). There is almost zero padding on any of the transducers in the Sierra Tower which means the efficiency on all the components is maximized.

Keeping the bass response of the Sierra-1 intact is important to me, a very large percentage of our customers use these in 2-way systems without a subwoofer. So, how do we keep the bass response and yet provide even more midrange detail? The NrT upgrade does a good job of this as we cross a bit lower so more midrange detail comes from the tweeter, which is quite robust and can handle it with ease.

Along this same line of thought, I have built a custom Sierra-1 with our RAAL 70-20XR. With this particular ribbon, I can cross even lower and just as important, the slope of the high pass can be shallower. This allows less of the upper mids (the critical area where detail is sensed) to be reproduced by the woofer and instead is reproduced by the most detailed transducer I know of, the RAAL... The results of this combination is exceptional and while not as detailed as our Sierra Tower, for a 2-way bookshelf speaker it has to be amongst the best out there. The problem with this is the expense :( After completing the BOM, the price of our RAAL Sierra-1 will come out to be $1798/pair. Certainly not high for anything with a RAAL tweeter, especially a 70-20XR with AM core -- but, I just don't know if this would be marketable and it will not be possible to "upgrade" existing Sierra-1.

So here is where I look to forum feedback -- at $1798 / pair, would there be demand for a RAAL Sierra-1?

[GirgleMirt]

while not as detailed as our Sierra Tower, for a 2-way bookshelf speaker it has to be amongst the best out there.
So if I understand correctly, for about 15% more, 300$, you could get an NrT tower which would be more detailed? Or are we talking about the RAAL Sierra tower? If the RAAL, how would the NrT tower compare?

Hard to say without hearing, but I think that if the NrT tower was more detailed in the mids and I wanted a ~2000$ speaker, I'd probably opt for the towers, since 300$ isn't that much more, and you do get towers in the end... Just a question like that, would you go for the RAAL bookshelf instead of the NrT towers? :p Because I think that could influence possible answers ;)

[curtis]

To me, it seems like you would get better midrange detail than a Sierra-1, but not as good as a Tower, and the treble response of Tower w/RAAL.

I would certainly like to hear it.

And we could call it...the Sierra-R....or maybe not.

[Dark Ranger]

First off, props to Dave for considering and actually working on suggestions from customers.

In my opinion, the towers are a no-brainer with either the NrT or RAAL option. You get the luscious mids and highs in an optimal 3-way design.

However, there are customers who cannot fit a tower into their listening environment. I am one of those customers. A Sierra-1 with RAAL would cater to a niche group including, but not limited to:

- those with no space for full towers
- those who prefer two-way bookshelf designs
- those who prefer high-quality sound in a discrete enclosure

However, I think the lack of upgrade path from Sierra-1 to Sierra/RAAL may cause some folks to back down because of the additional investment. I figured it would be extremely difficult to retool an existing S-1 cabinet for a RAAL upgrade.

One thought I had: a "trade up" program might be attractive for those who already own S-1, but I have no idea how much that would affect Ascend's ROI or resale objectives. There would be a lot of B-Stock going this route, and it will impact Ascend's current inventory turnover.

I do have a soft spot for quality bookshelf monitors. I will definitely stay tuned.


EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention names. My thought was Sierra-1R. Simple, but descriptive.

[Mag_Neato]

Glad to hear there is experimentation with this concept!
The difference in cost vs. The NrT towers would be the tough choice.
That would be dependent on each persons situation. Having the room for the monitors but not towers..........RAAL vs NrT.......etc.
Space for large speakers is not an issue for me, but cost is. If I could manage $2000 for the towers I'd be sticking with the excellent NrT tweeter. If I wanted the goodness of the ribbon combined with a little better midrange over the Sierra-1 NrT then a Sierra-1R(ribbon) crossed over to my 12" Rythmik would fill the bill.
Tough decision.

[Dark Ranger]

Glad to hear there is experimentation with this concept!
The difference in cost vs. The NrT towers would be the tough choice.
That would be dependent on each persons situation. Having the room for the monitors but not towers..........RAAL vs NrT.......etc.
Space for large speakers is not an issue for me, but cost is. If I could manage $2000 for the towers I'd be sticking with the excellent NrT tweeter. If I wanted the goodness of the ribbon combined with a little better midrange over the Sierra-1 NrT then a Sierra-1R(ribbon) crossed over to my 12" Rythmik would fill the bill.
Tough decision.

I was thinking more about this today.

Dave already has a NrT upgrade kit available for stock Sierras. This takes the original design with excellent sound and refines it in several ways. The great thing about the NrT upgrade is that it does not require reengineering the cabinet, and the kit can be installed by the user. However, nearly everything changes with the RAAL upgrade: new cabinet design, new crossover, new tweeter, etc. It is NOT a drop-in replacement kit.

As far as sound quality, I recall that the NrT and RAAL share similar voicing, although the custom RT for Ascend does provide several key advantages over the excellent NrT.

OK, here's my point: the Sierra-1 with RAAL could be attractive for new customers who want a bookshelf monitor, but desire higher-quality sound than either stock or NrT versions provide. However, for customers who already own Sierra-1 systems, the RAAL upgrade would be harder to justify in my opinion, and it still would not offer as much detail as the full Tower system.

On the other hand, Ascend could offer this "exceptional" bookshelf monitor that would be among the very best two-ways at almost any price point.

Decisions, decisions!

Honestly, I would be extremely interested in seeing measurement data comparing the prototype Sierra-1R (had to plug my suggested name) with the existing stock/NrT versions. Of course, a listening session would be great, but since I'm on the East Coast, I'll have to leave it to others.


Just a few thoughts on this Thursday morning.

[merrymaid520]

Dave,
My thoughts are divided as well. Its tough to justify $1800 for a RAAL bookshelf when the NrT towers with a dedicated mid driver are the same price. On the other hand, if the RAAL bookshelf has an improved mid range presence because of the lower XO point over and above the Nrt sierra-1, then it might be a interesting proposition.

I suppose if someone is after the best tweeter (highs) in a bookshelf, it would be tough to beat.

I suggest letting some folks hear the prototype(if possible) and gauage the feedback. I of course would not mind demoing a pair:p:D Had to throw that out!

Just out of pure curiosity while we are on this subject, if there was a possibility to improve upon the Towers (with RAAL) such as better drivers, different cabinet design, etc, what would you do?

Thanks,
Brandon

[Sam1000]

I have seen a few vendors selling 2 way bookshelf for approx 3.5k with same RAAL tweeter. AS someone mentioned, it's a good option for those who have space constraints or for anyone who's interesting in timbre matching their RAAL front stage with RAAL surrounds.
SO,I think there will be a market for this product however, it might be smaller/niche market compared to other Ascend offerings. But, at least the consumers/buyers will have options :-)

[Mag_Neato]

Dave,
My thoughts are divided as well. Its tough to justify $1800 for a RAAL bookshelf when the NrT towers with a dedicated mid driver are the same price. On the other hand, if the RAAL bookshelf has an improved mid range presence because of the lower XO point over and above the Nrt sierra-1, then it might be a interesting proposition.

I suppose if someone is after the best tweeter (highs) in a bookshelf, it would be tough to beat.

I suggest letting some folks hear the prototype(if possible) and gauage the feedback. I of course would not mind demoing a pair:p:D Had to throw that out!

Just out of pure curiosity while we are on this subject, if there was a possibility to improve upon the Towers (with RAAL) such as better drivers, different cabinet design, etc, what would you do?

Thanks,
Brandon

Now wait just a minute!! Brandon, Dave made the Towers specifically for YOU, so being the one whom started this here thread, the prototype should be sent to ME!!:D

[curtis]

Dave...the one thing that has really stood out for me since last hearing the Tower w/RAALs is the Dean Peer track "Lord's Tundra". That track has been on my list of tracks when listening to speakers for a long time, along with Ray Montford's "One Witness".

I love (loved?) the way it sounding on my Sierra-1's with the Rythmik, but on the Towers, the sound was much more defined. I am guessing that it is mostly because of the dedicated midrange.

How would you characterize it on the "Sierra-1R" (I concede to Jacob)?

[steven1110]

This is a very interesting conundrum! I do feel like there would be a market for it but I don't feel it would be as big as your other offerings. I'd agree with others that it would be more of a niche offering for those who 1) can't fit a tower, 2) prefers bookshelves, 3) prefers ribbon tweeters, 4) budget constraints, and 5) want a smaller option to the STC with matching ribbon.

If a ribbon tweeter bookshelf was an option when I purchased my tower, I have a feeling that I would have had a very hard time deciding between the two.

[pawsman]

What about a totally different animal; say a Seas 7" Excel Magnesium mated with the 70-20xr RAAL? This would be a bigger, more powerful monitor than the Sierra 1; a Sierra on steroids, so to speak, that would compete with the Joseph Audio Pulsars of the world (a Sierra 2?). I'm one of those who prefers a Monitor over a Tower; the well designed 2-way Monitors do so many things right; they give you point source sound, incredible imaging, and disappear with good recordings.
Or, apparently Dave has some expertise with amplifiers; a powered 2-way monitor would be interesting. Doing the crossover at line level, and tailoring the amp to the specific drivers gives you much better performance than a passive design. Just a thought--

pawsman

[Chops]

Hello From New Hampshire

I’m a newbie to the forum. I don't know if this can be done, however a possible idea to keep everyone happy would be to have a crossover change switch on the back of speaker. This would have a selectable option for a crossover change that would allow less bottom & more middle for those that want it. It would also require a new circuit board.

[curtis]

Hello From New Hampshire

I’m a newbie to the forum. I don't know if this can be done, however a possible idea to keep everyone happy would be to have a crossover change switch on the back of speaker. This would have a selectable option for a crossover change that would allow less bottom & more middle for those that want it. It would also require a new circuit board.
hey Chops...

It isn't about less bottom vs more middle(more detailed middle). With a switch, you still need a driver that can do both, rather than design a specific (better) driver for a narrower application.

[merrymaid520]

Now wait just a minute!! Brandon, Dave made the Towers specifically for YOU, so being the one whom started this here thread, the prototype should be sent to ME!!:D

I'll see what I can do:p

[Mag_Neato]

I'll see what I can do:p

After giving this some more thought, maybe you would be the best candidate to send the test units to. Afterall, you have the RAAL towers and have more time with them than anyone else aside from Dave himself!:cool:

[curtis]

After giving this some more thought, maybe you would be the best candidate to send the test units to. Afterall, you have the RAAL towers and have more time with them than anyone else aside from Dave himself!:cool:
After I get to hear them at Dave's shop!!

[Mag_Neato]

After I get to hear them at Dave's shop!!

Oh sure, RUB IT IN!! We can't help that you live so close and we have to rely on UPS/FedEX.

BTW Curtis, I saw a post somewhere where you mentioned some music tracks you now use as your standard speaker test/demo material, but I can't seem to find it again? I think you got the suggestions from Dave.

Any idea? Thanks!

[curtis]

BTW Curtis, I saw a post somewhere where you mentioned some music tracks you now use as your standard speaker test/demo material, but I can't seem to find it again? I think you got the suggestions from Dave.

Any idea? Thanks!
Oh...Dean Peer and Ray Montford. They have been part of my list for a long time...I gave them to Dave.

[logicology]

I don't think I would spend that much for bookshelves. But I would pay half that for a Center RAAL speaker with similar dimensions to the Sierra. I can't fit a STC Horizon, but I really want a center with a RAAL speaker.

But in either case, I feel it would be a niche market, as others have suggested. Not sure if there would be mass appeal. If I didn't already have RAAL towers and were in the market. I would opt to pay the 15% more for NrT Towers over a RAAL bookshelf.

[Dark Ranger]

After giving this some more thought, maybe you would be the best candidate to send the test units to. Afterall, you have the RAAL towers and have more time with them than anyone else aside from Dave himself!:cool:


After I get to hear them at Dave's shop!!

I agree. Brandon is arguably one of the best candidates for "beta testing" since he's heard the NrT Sierra-1, NrT Towers, and now owns RAAL Towers. He's got history. :p

Of course, I think some of us (myself included) are a wee bit jealous of Curtis's proximity to Ascend. I am definitely interested in his thoughts if Dave opens the floor to demos. :D


I don't think I would spend that much for bookshelves. But I would pay half that for a Center RAAL speaker with similar dimensions to the Sierra. I can't fit a STC Horizon, but I really want a center with a RAAL speaker.

But in either case, I feel it would be a niche market, as others have suggested. Not sure if there would be mass appeal. If I didn't already have RAAL towers and were in the market. I would opt to pay the 15% more for NrT Towers over a RAAL bookshelf.

A Sierra-1 sized center channel with the 70-20XR is a good idea! I've read posts here and at AVS about folks who cannot fit an STC into their setup. This would be a great option for those who want ribbon sweetness, but cannot fit (or afford) the full STC. Actually, this option might end up more popular than the L/R ribbon bookshelves.

Let me say this: I spent the weekend with my new STC (ribbon version) and came away impressed. I have a mini review and pics forthcoming, but after hearing the RAAL I remain very interested in a bookshelf version.

Let me spell it out: yes, I would be willing to shell out $1,800 for a pair of RAAL bookshelves. It's unfortunate that I don't see Towers in my future due to space constraints.

I would also be interested in reviewing a pair of said bookshelves if Dave finds me worthy. :p :D

[Mag_Neato]

Wow, all of this talk of a RAAL version of the Sierra-1 has taken over the thread! I started this thread based on the possiblility of a woofer/crossover upgrade to maybe improve on the mids of the Sierra-1 NrT, as a more cost effective step over the cost of the towers. If there is not a significant cost advantage over the cost of the NrT towers then I would just set my sights on those as space is not an issue here.

Do continue with the RAAL talk though, as it seems Dave has been thinking of doing that.:)

[merrymaid520]

I agree. Brandon is arguably one of the best candidates for "beta testing" since he's heard the NrT Sierra-1, NrT Towers, and now owns RAAL Towers. He's got history. :p


^^^^^ I am going to have to agree with you here^^^^^^^^



:p

[Chops]

Curtis,

After reading quite a few threads I have been impressed with your responses.

Is the tower mid speaker the same size as the bass so it would fit into the bookshelf?
Would this work as an option by giving more mid detail, while loosing some bass response?

I might rather save the $700 for the RAAL bookshelf & spend it on a sub.

Maybe it would be called the Sierra-1 M

I'd have to spend money for stands for the RAAL book shelves which would end up being the same foot print as the towers. I'd look at the towers as being less then $200 dollars & would probably opt for them.

[curtis]

Curtis,

After reading quite a few threads I have been impressed with your responses.

Is the tower mid speaker the same size as the bass so it would fit into the bookshelf?
Would this work as an option by giving more mid detail, while loosing some bass response?
The midrange driver and woofers are approximately the same size, but it isn't some bass you would lose out on...it is A LOT. Not even deep enough to crossover to a sub. So not feasible.

[Funambulistic]

I posted my first response entirely in jest, but it seems this thread may have gotten out of hand. The Sierra 1 (and it's subsequent upgrade to the NrT) is an awesome stand mount speaker: at it's price point (and several points above!) there is no challenger, IMHO. There are quite a few speaker systems designed for that 80-100Hz cutoff, but none that I would spend money on (most seem to have a 3-4" midrange - ick!). To incorporate the mid bass from the towers into the Sierra just seems backwards to me. The Sierra 1 has incredible bass for it's size (yes, it may be a tad slower than a dedicated midrange driver, but could the majority of us tell the difference if a proper crossover were incorporated?) but with the many room correction systems (of which I use none) it is a completely viable HT speaker. Now, the RAAL tweeter does intrigue me, but, as Dave posted earlier, it would take almost a complete redesign (i.e. port location, etc.) of an already epic enclosure. Also, from what I have read on the 'threads, one might as well shell out the cash money for the towers.

I am always on the hunt for something better, but, for the time being, I am perfectly at home with my Sierra 1 NrTs. I love Dave's style: research, research, test, test, research (ad infinitum) and possibly upgrade...

[choirbass]

It's a fairly difficult choice honestly, lol. Although, if someone is set on RAAL tweeters in a bookshelf, a Sierra-1 center is probably the most sensible option. It's maybe a couple hundred or so less than the NrT Horizon, and it's noticeably smaller for those who are tight on space. It's like an HTM-200 SE in that sense :)

Hm. I suppose I really am just rehashing what others are saying. RAAL bookshelves are an excellent option to have, where towers or stands simply aren't an option themselves.

[davef]

Hey everyone...

A quick update to this thread...

While I can not post details just yet, we have made a rather significant investment into the future of the Sierra-1 / Sierra-1 NrT.

Combining our vast experience, our decades old worldwide vendor relationships and our resources - crucial attributes that few, if any, other ID companies can match - work has now begun on something quite special...

Current and future Sierra-1 owners will be very, very happy :D :D

[Dark Ranger]

Dave!! You just made my day!! :eek:

I am very excited to hear this update. You know, every one of your product updates have been significant and worth waiting for:

- Signature Edition for 200/170/340
- NrT upgrade for Sierra-1
- RAAL upgrade for Sierra Towers/STC

...not to mention the original products themselves.

As I've mentioned to you before, I love my Sierra-1s, but I think I will start saving my pennies for whatever you've got cooking. :D


Thank you!!

[Mag_Neato]

Oh boy-oh-boy-oh-boy-oh-boy!!:D

Oh how you are a tease master, Dave! Going to be checking this thread constantly now.

Too bad I'm so broke that I can't even pay attention:(

[GirgleMirt]

Interesting... Any ETA?

[davef]

Dave!! You just made my day!! :eek:

I am very excited to hear this update. You know, every one of your product updates have been significant and worth waiting for:

- Signature Edition for 200/170/340
- NrT upgrade for Sierra-1
- RAAL upgrade for Sierra Towers/STC

...not to mention the original products themselves.

As I've mentioned to you before, I love my Sierra-1s, but I think I will start saving my pennies for whatever you've got cooking. :D


Thank you!!

If all goes as planned, this will be our most significant upgrade yet. The Sierra-1 and Sierra-1 NrT will not change -- this will be an optional "uber performance" upgrade, available as factory new or DIY. I am extremely excited about this and have invested a significant sum to make this happen for you guys :)

This version will firmly place the Sierra-1 into the ranks of the best bookshelf speaker at any price anywhere... Our customers asked for this and we are going to deliver BIG TIME!

Happy 4th!

[davef]

Interesting... Any ETA?

Difficult to say at this point, within a year though. I still have to work out some details but I believe the most challenging part is done. We are essentially designing and building custom parts from the ground up and committing to large enough purchase quantities to take maximum advantage of volume discounting to keep price points reasonable.

To be perfectly frank, the success of the Sierra towers has allowed us to make a significant investment back into our company and you, our customers, are going to be the beneficiaries :)

[GirgleMirt]

Awesome! :D

I had a flash a couple of minutes ago... If this is what's happening, I officially have super powers! An add on top cabinet for a mid woofer for the Sierra-1 (with crossover, of course). :cool: Let the rumor mill begin to turn! Logic behind the guess: 1) Doubt it's a tweeter upgrade, 2) doubt it's a woofer upgrade, 3) the cabinet must remain the same, so I don't know, for some reason the design of the tower with the mid on top and likely inner volume for the sealed mid, seems doable for a Sierra-1, so while I wish I'm right, I hope I haven't spoiled anything!!!

(if it's right and surprise must be kept feel free to delete this post!)

[logicology]

It's probably either:

Bluetooth radio for wireless connectivity
Waterproof enclosure that looks like a rock for outdoor use


:D

[Dark Ranger]

If all goes as planned, this will be our most significant upgrade yet. ...this will be an optional "uber performance" upgrade, available as factory new or DIY. I am extremely excited about this and have invested a significant sum to make this happen for you guys


This version will firmly place the Sierra-1 into the ranks of the best bookshelf speaker at any price anywhere... Our customers asked for this and we are going to deliver BIG TIME!


We are essentially designing and building custom parts from the ground up and committing to large enough purchase quantities to take maximum advantage of volume discounting to keep price points reasonable.

Emphasis mine. I think the hint is the DIY option, not to mention the "uber performance." That does narrow it down based on what we know from previously mentioned prototype designs.

Yup, Dave knows how to tease us. :D


Might I add additional possibilities to logicology's list:

internal Class-H amplification of 2000 watts into 8 ohms (>120 dB SN @ 1 watt)
chameleon finish options to automatically blend into any decor
nano technology upgrade for improved sonic performance when evaluated in the realm of quantum mechanics


Whatever it is, I gotta have it! :D

[qwknuf6]

RAAL tweeter upgrade?

[merrymaid520]

Good news Dave! I'll admit, I am bit nervous.....will this "upgrade" effect the Towers? I really cant swing any more A/V purchases for a while:eek:

[merrymaid520]

RAAL tweeter upgrade?

My bets are on this^^^^

Maybe a custom sized version to fit the sierra-1 cabinet including a revised XO.

[chas]

My bets are on this^^^^

Maybe a custom sized version to fit the sierra-1 cabinet including a revised XO.

I'll put my money on that as well...

[Dark Ranger]

Good news Dave! I'll admit, I am bit nervous.....will this "upgrade" effect the Towers? I really cant swing any more A/V purchases for a while:eek:

I'm just speculating here, but I believe this optional upgrade is intended for the Sierra-1 monitors. Now with Dave, anything is possible, but the Towers are already Ascend's flagship performer offering exceptional SQ in a 3-way design (plus optional RAAL upgrade). Meanwhile, folks have inquired about a Sierra-1 upgrade and Dave has been working on various designs.

You should be safe...for now. ;)


My bets are on this^^^^ [RAAL tweeter upgrade]

Maybe a custom sized version to fit the sierra-1 cabinet including a revised XO.

Emphasis mine. I remember Dave saying that the current 70-20XR model could not be fitted to a current Sierra-1 cabinet. I have a lot of faith in Dave's ingenuity and engineering skill, but that would take a miracle to accomplish. Then again, this wouldn't be the first miracle he's pulled off. :cool:

I'm with all of you; looking forward to future announcements. As I've mentioned before, I just don't have the space for Towers. My Sierra-1 monitors are placed on Auralex MoPads resting on a computer desk. If Ascend can offer an additional upgrade for these puppies (beyond the NrT), I'm going to do everything I can to get it.

When this upgrade is ready, it will be interesting to hear Dave's feedback on the level of performance compared to the Towers. For example, this upgrade will deliver 84.93% of the NrT Tower performance (number pulled from thin air for demo purposes).

Oh, and one more thing: I'm sure we'll have to twist Curtis's arm real hard to stop by the Ascend workshop when Dave is ready for show and tell. :D

[GirgleMirt]

RAAL tweeter upgrade?
My doubts with that is that the RAAL upgrade is 700$ for the towers, and that's basically ignoring/replacing the NrT crossover with the RAAL crossover, in other words, you're only purchasing 2 RAAL tweeters (so around 350 each) for the towers as the price of two crossovers is already included in the original price of the NrT towers, so the RAAL upgrade cost is majority tweeters imho.

So if the upgrade is for the Sierra-1 RAAL tweeter, your current crossover is useless, so you must buy two more crossovers, so if the pricing is similar, you're looking at >700$, not below 800$ in my estimate... Which is a significant cost! It's the original price for the Sierras! :eek:

If we take the NrT upgrade, it was 340$, so I'm not sure how great the pricing works.. Sure, maybe volume discounts and all will factor, but a RAAL upgrade will be quite costly... There are cheaper ribbon tweeters available though, some which would probably fit in the existing cabinet...

But thinking back on my earlier guess, my mid cabinet option might also be quite expensive, not sure how much it would cost to make 2 small cabinets + two mids + crossover... Maybe also costly... And performance wise, not having heard the NrT towers or RAAL towers, I could only guess which of these two upgrades would be better... :confused: Another thing, the towers use different bass woofers from Sierra-1, so again maybe another component to change? Leaving as is would be ok too, but if you add the mid.. Anyhow, can't wait to hear more details :)

[GirgleMirt]

Oh, and one more thing: I'm sure we'll have to twist Curtis's arm real hard to stop by the Ascend workshop when Dave is ready for show and tell. :D
I can see Curtis hopping in his Ninja suit and peering inside the windows of the Ascend factory... :D

[Dark Ranger]

My doubts with that is that the RAAL upgrade is 700$ for the towers, and that's basically ignoring/replacing the NrT crossover with the RAAL crossover, in other words, you're only purchasing 2 RAAL tweeters (so around 350 each) for the towers as the price of two crossovers is already included in the original price of the NrT towers, so the RAAL upgrade cost is majority tweeters imho.

So if the upgrade is for the Sierra-1 RAAL tweeter, your current crossover is useless, so you must buy two more crossovers, so if the pricing is similar, you're looking at >700$, not below 800$ in my estimate... Which is a significant cost! It's the original price for the Sierras! :eek:

If we take the NrT upgrade, it was 340$, so I'm not sure how great the pricing works.. Sure, maybe volume discounts and all will factor, but a RAAL upgrade will be quite costly... There are cheaper ribbon tweeters available though, some which would probably fit in the existing cabinet...

But thinking back on my earlier guess, my mid cabinet option might also be quite expensive, not sure how much it would cost to make 2 small cabinets + two mids + crossover... Maybe also costly... And performance wise, not having heard the NrT towers or RAAL towers, I could only guess which of these two upgrades would be better... :confused: Another thing, the towers use different bass woofers from Sierra-1, so again maybe another component to change? Leaving as is would be ok too, but if you add the mid.. Anyhow, can't wait to hear more details :)

You make a lot of good points. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out an upgrade path that provides reasonable cost (considering volume discounts), uber performance, and the DIY option. My biggest hindrance is the fact I don't have decades of engineering experience or potent relationships with key vendors. :p

GirgleMirt, I have to say your guess is pretty good. I think it's logical and reasonable. However, I still do have some unanswered questions in a few areas and haven't come up with any solutions yet.

As I pointed out earlier, the key seems to be the DIY option. Ascend has to streamline the upgrade process so it's relatively straightforward for most customers to accomplish. Consider the NrT upgrade. Dave posted great instructional videos, and the whole process is very simple to do (excluding the extra time involved with the 1st-gen cabinets).

Then comes the area of cost. To me, the earlier discussion in this thread indicated that ~$1,800/pr would be too high for most folks looking at bookshelf monitors. Now of course that included the reworked cabinet, plus all the new components. So my gut feeling is that Dave found 1) a workaround or 2) a new possibility that showed great promise, allowing customers to use their existing cabinets and providing a more "reasonable" cost to upgrade.

Perhaps I should undergo plastic surgery and cosmetic adjustment so I can sneak in under the guise of "Sal." Then I could get a sneak preview. :cool:

[curtis]

Jacob....like you have mentioned, Dave/Ascend has strong relationships with suppliers/OEMs. This is something that I believe few, if any, ID speaker manufacturer has. These OEMs go to Dave with new products to try and evaluate. They welcome his feedback and engineering expertise. He is also able to bring costs down because of quantities purchased.

These relationships open a lot of doors for Ascend. I have a feeling that whatever Dave has cooking, significantly exploits these advantages.

When Dave is ready to give a peek at what is going on...I will be there. :)

Happy 4th of July!!

[Dark Ranger]

Thank you for the insight and additional details, Curtis. I feel very fortunate to have discovered Ascend. :)

Happy 4th to you, too, and to everyone else here on the Forums.

[GirgleMirt]

Now of course that included the reworked cabinet, plus all the new components.
No no! Just to be sure we've got the same idea... Hmmm... Take JMLabs Utopia for instance: http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/710focal.1.jpg

They are built with multiple cabinets. That's what I had in mind. The original Sierra cabinet wouldn't change at all, just another 'module' would sit on top, containing the mid woofer. So you'd end up with a MTW, just like the tower's MTWW. This would require new crossover of course, but then, each crossover is wired in parallel, so to do that, no need to bust anything in the original sierra cabinet, simply remove the woofer, replace the current crossover with the new one, and then, from outside, by the binding posts, connect the speaker as usual, and then have jumpers going to the top module, which would contain the mid crossover and woofer. The bottom crossover would contain the circuit for the woofer and the tweeter.

So no carpentry needed at all for the consumer, it would be just a sealed cabinet sitting on top of the sierra. Sort of like this too (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/vienna_acoustics_klimt_the_kiss_loudspeaker/index.html). So it wouldn't be any more complicated than the NrT upgrade :)

For RAAL upgrade, as I said, maybe it's a more worthwhile upgrade than the mid woofer.. Maybe the extra mid/cabinet would be more expensive... Anyhow, I have really no idea, whatever is coming I'm sure it'll be something! :D

[Dark Ranger]

Don't worry, we're both on the same page. I completely understand the design you're thinking of. ;)

My comment about the reworked cabinet referred to the RAAL tweeter upgrade mentioned on the first page of this thread. The 70-20XR would not be a drop-in replacement like the NrT upgrade was. The Sierra-1 cabinet would need to be modified to accommodate the ribbon tweeter, hence the $1.8K tag on the BOM.

With your idea, I agree that it would most likely be a mid-woofer attachment. One of the problems I ran into was how to properly secure the "box" on top without ruining appearance. In addition, each box would need to be available in the same finish options as the Sierra-1 cabinets (arguably a minor problem).

Attaching the mid-woofer to the primary crossover is one problem I've been mulling over. Piggy-backing off the main binding posts is one option, but I think that would require two crossovers. I'm just not sure that's the best way to do it.

This is why Dave builds the speakers and I buy the speakers. :o

[Dark Ranger]

For RAAL upgrade, as I said, maybe it's a more worthwhile upgrade than the mid woofer.. Maybe the extra mid/cabinet would be more expensive... Anyhow, I have really no idea, whatever is coming I'm sure it'll be something! :D

Now we're all just speculating here and feeding the rumor mill, but it's still fun. :p

I have no idea on the cost of a mid-woofer module attachment, but if we're building it out of bamboo (likely), plus new crossovers and transducer, I can see BOM climbing quickly.

Dave said a few things earlier that keep nagging me regarding the mid-woofer theory:


With that in mind, I built a prototype using this mid, one Sierra-1 woofer and the NrT dome. The problem with this is that there is a significant difference in efficiency between the two different woofers and both the tweeter and the mid have to be padded down by at least 4-5 dB. This 3-way bookshelf speaker, or LCR, would only be slightly less expensive than our Sierra Tower and I was simply not able to get the performance I would have liked. The beauty in the Sierra Tower is that the sensitivity of the dual 5 1/4" woofers match the mid and that matches the NrT dome (and even the RAAL, which has a custom impedance / sensitivity profile for us). There is almost zero padding on any of the transducers in the Sierra Tower which means the efficiency on all the components is maximized.

Perhaps he's found a way around it, maybe not. :confused:

One thing's for sure, he's confident enough to announce it, whatever "it" is.

[GirgleMirt]

With your idea, I agree that it would most likely be a mid-woofer attachment. One of the problems I ran into was how to properly secure the "box" on top without ruining appearance. In addition, each box would need to be available in the same finish options as the Sierra-1 cabinets (arguably a minor problem).

Attaching the mid-woofer to the primary crossover is one problem I've been mulling over. Piggy-backing off the main binding posts is one option, but I think that would require two crossovers. I'm just not sure that's the best way to do it.
Correct on all :)

For 'securing' the box, there's no real need for securing... I mean, we're on earth so gravity will take care of holding the top compartment :p Maybe just have some sort of spacer, foam, rubber, whatever, but I don't see a need to 'secure' it in place... If you give it the same shape as the original Sierras, besides a small seam which would barely be noticeable, I don't think it would detract at all... But yeah, obviously, you'd need the same Sierra finish options lol

2 crossovers wouldn't be a big deal IMHO. Whether you put the components on one plate or two, not a huge difference... Plate is probably cheap... Manufacturing 1 vs 2 the same, the same parts still need to go on crossover, so whether 1 or 2 are built, so I don't think it would be a big deal... I'd just put the mid cross in top cabinet with binding posts/jumpers, and that's it. Otherwise yeah you have to pass the wires somewhere from inside the main cabinet and the top one and that doesn't really work without modifying the original sierra cabinet.


For the tweeter upgrade... As I said, I sort of doubted it was the case... Last week or so I've been passing some time with a ribbon tweeter, and for the high end the NrT more than holds its own. The NrT is really good!!! I personally wouldn't upgrade it a 2nd time for the high end. Which leaves the mids, which gets a bit impacted by the tweeter... Well that's a bit touchy, the RAAL goes down lower in frequencies than your average ribbon tweeter, so it's a special case for the mids... So going tweeter upgrade, IMHO, would basically require a 'very fancy' tweeter if you wanted it to go down low (mids), and very fancy usually means $$$... Whereas the mid woofer+cabinet upgrade, I'm not sure, but might be cheaper... Well probably would be than 700+$ of RAAL tweeters/crossovers... It would make the Sierra a 3 way, and personally, that might seem like a more interesting idea than simple tweeter upgrade... But then again, nobody knows what Dave has cooked up so that statement is waay premature!

And actually, even a woofer upgrade is possible. The woofer could in theory improve mids, maybe even bass... Hmm!



Dave said a few things earlier that keep nagging me regarding the mid-woofer theory:

With that in mind, I built a prototype using this mid, one Sierra-1 woofer and the NrT dome. The problem with this is that there is a significant difference in efficiency between the two different woofers and both the tweeter and the mid have to be padded down by at least 4-5 dB. This 3-way bookshelf speaker, or LCR, would only be slightly less expensive than our Sierra Tower and I was simply not able to get the performance I would have liked. The beauty in the Sierra Tower is that the sensitivity of the dual 5 1/4" woofers match the mid and that matches the NrT dome (and even the RAAL, which has a custom impedance / sensitivity profile for us). There is almost zero padding on any of the transducers in the Sierra Tower which means the efficiency on all the components is maximized.
Perhaps he's found a way around it, maybe not.
Ooooh interesting.. So he's probably referring to the Sierra tower mid... Yeah, then a new/modified mid would be required... Well... I'm no speaker designer, but that would certainly seem to be within the realm of possibility ;)

Actually, now I'm starting to think that the mid upgrade is far more likely than a tweeter, simply because in my own experience, the NrT tweeter is a great performer and I wouldn't see a huge potential for the high end...

Anyhow, I guess I should put more listening/comparing time on the NrT vs ribbon, but it's not that easy, either like I've been saying they're very close, or I'm a very poor listener... but the differences aren't very apparent to me, I even fear I might fail a DBT on it... (!!!)

I think a question would be, for the top cabinet, how large would it need to be? If we're talking a 5 inch woofer, I think that's quite a big cabinet on top of the sierra... If we're talking a smaller mid, then it opens the possibility of a smaller top compartment which might be the only viable option. Damn, couch speaker designing is so hard!!! lol

[curtis]

Girgle...I have heard a few different ribbon tweeters, I can tell you they don't sound the same.

[GirgleMirt]

Girgle...I have heard a few different ribbon tweeters, I can tell you they don't sound the same.

Yeah sorry not claiming they all sound the same... The 340SE tweeter for example sounds more distinct to me than either the NrT and Fountek's NeoCD3.0, same for the original Sierra tweeter... But, going from NrT vs Fountek Ribbon, I heard more similarities than differences. I mean that's a good thing, as sound reproduction gets better all products should converse to the same direction. But that was a non level matched & go switch speakers kind of test... Only alternated between both a couple of times and what struck me was that although the two speakers sounded drastically different, the top end felt quite similar, the Ribbon didn't strike me as "having significantly more air" or "being more detailed" or whatever, unlike the mids/bass/soundstage/imaging/etc., the top end sounded quite similar... But that was with the Fountek NeoCD3.0, RAAL or other ribbons are another story... Maybe it was my ears, or the listening material... I was focusing on cymbals mostly...

Or, maybe because it was one of the few commonality between the two speakers sound I thought it was more similar than it actually was... But all I can say for sure is that based on that short demo, the two tweeters felt rather equivalent, none seemed superior/inferior... So going on that short demo, I wouldn't spend $ to 'improve' the NrT tweeter to that ribbon, if it's even an improvement, I know in theory they should sound quite different, but I didn't hear it, weird... To be frank, I was expecting more differences than I heard... Like I said, rest of the speaker sounded drastically different, top end, not so much! So maybe that somewhat skewed the tweeter comparison...

I think Dave made a thread asking for recommendations a while back to highlight the NrT tweeter, maybe I should try some material from that thread and see if I hear more differences...

[Dark Ranger]

For the tweeter upgrade... As I said, I sort of doubted it was the case... Last week or so I've been passing some time with a ribbon tweeter, and for the high end the NrT more than holds its own. The NrT is really good!!! I personally wouldn't upgrade it a 2nd time for the high end. Which leaves the mids, which gets a bit impacted by the tweeter... Well that's a bit touchy, the RAAL goes down lower in frequencies than your average ribbon tweeter, so it's a special case for the mids... So going tweeter upgrade, IMHO, would basically require a 'very fancy' tweeter if you wanted it to go down low (mids), and very fancy usually means $$$...

If this "uber performance" upgrade is a new tweeter/crossover, I agree that it would have to be something special, hence Dave's R&D with the 70-20XR. While this combination was considered "exceptional," he ran into the whole cost and redesign issue.

So as you stated, a worthwhile tweeter upgrade over the NrT would be $$$.

It's possible he's found a way to "Honey, I shrunk the 70-20XR" and fit it into the existing cabinet, as merrymaid offered earlier. I just don't see how that's possible, hence my comment about a miracle.

Then again, it could be an entirely new ribbon tweeter offering similar performance, but in a much smaller package...


And actually, even a woofer upgrade is possible. The woofer could in theory improve mids, maybe even bass... Hmm!

This was one possibility I considered as well, something like a "Signature Edition" upgrade for the Sierra-1: new woofer, tweet, and crossover. However, while the DIY should be applicable, the issue I see is cost. The Sierra drivers are already very high quality. Then you run into questions like:


what tweeter would be an upgrade to the NrT, but not cost an internal organ?
what would a new bass driver give? Deeper extension, better mids, better efficiency? Etc., etc.
so how much is replacing all the guts going to cost me?



Actually, now I'm starting to think that the mid upgrade is far more likely than a tweeter, simply because in my own experience, the NrT tweeter is a great performer and I wouldn't see a huge potential for the high end...

While I agree that a mid-woofer addition would be "uber performance," the design could be checkmated based on Dave's quote I pulled from the first page. That seemed to be a show-stopper for the Sierra-1 3-way design (at least at the time).


I think a question would be, for the top cabinet, how large would it need to be? If we're talking a 5 inch woofer, I think that's quite a big cabinet on top of the sierra... If we're talking a smaller mid, then it opens the possibility of a smaller top compartment which might be the only viable option.

My thought was to go simple: same width and depth as the Sierra-1 cabinet, and high enough to accommodate the 5.25" mid-woofer. However, it also increases cost since more direct materials are used. Furthermore, the Sierra-1 would be more imposing and harder to place. It's probably pushing the limits of a "bookshelf" design. If a smaller woofer is used, I'm not sure how much performance one would give up for a slightly smaller module.


Damn, couch speaker designing is so hard!!! lol

I completely agree. Like I said earlier, I'll let Dave handle the design and engineering, and I'll just open my wallet when he's ready. :p


Note to all: I'm having some fun discussing this upgrade. However, because my design experience is infinitesimal compared to Dave's, I have no illusions of competence. I hope he has a good laugh at my expense. Seriously. :D

[GirgleMirt]

DR: Nice post! :)

I've stumbled on a very interesting conversation on that RAAL ribbon, which, besides knowing of them as sort of the very expensive holy grail of ribbons before Ascend talked of them, ...

Ok let me just preface with this. For some reason, maybe it's a lack of golden ears or experience/exposure, I've always been 'fine' with ultra high end tweeters. For example, the tweets in the JMLabs Utopia, in the Dynaudio Confidence series, in the B&Ws Nautilus/800 series, in Wilson Audios, etc., all sound fine to me... They're most often the least of my complaints. I've read some complaints about such tweeters, but I guess I'm just not that sensitive to them, and find complaints about them a bit weird. That said, I've also heard a couple of ribbons in Verity audio, ProAcs, MBL, PSB, Aurum Camtus, etc... And as the metal/soft dome featured in the flagship products of most company, also found most of them very very good, and yeah sure in some case did definitely notice a significant difference between these tweeter types, it wasn't as I had been struck by lighting and thought I could never listen to a dome tweeter ever again... It was enough to intrigue me though, and I decided going for a ribbon in my next speakers :)

Having finally 'taken delivery' of the ribbon speaker, my dome vs ribbon experience didn't really translate to the Sierra NrT tweeter vs Fountek NeoCD3.0. Or maybe it did as I was satisfied with both tweeters, but didn't find these two sounded significantly different... :confused: Maybe the Fountek isn't that great for a ribbon, maybe the NrT is very good, maybe I simply suck at "the listening" :p but IMHO, they're both good tweeters and as such, don't sound that different...

The RAAL is a different beast though, and looking up more info on it, I stumbled on an interesting discussion. But before, even before David/Ascend ever talked about the RAAL ribbon, I had heard of that name and heard this was a special tweeter. Very expensive, but as I had heard, one of the best and almost in a class of its own. (Maybe I even heard it but I can't recall..) Now, finally, to the interesting RAAL discussion, discussing out of all things, David F.'s measurements of the said tweeter! :D http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?227999-Dave-Fabrikant-measures-the-RAAL-70-20XR Very interesting discussion! Some quotes from it:


I was impressed by the RAAL when I heard it. Though, it was probably the most expensive tweeter on display that day, and I've only had one other experience where I _really_ got to listen to a $200+ dome. I would like to hear the RAAL back to back against a similarly well implemented very expensive dome tweeter. I trust Pete's ears, but.... trust but verify.


Just to stir the pot, it is interesting to read some of DavidF's comments in that thread w/ regards to the RAAL:


*RAAL ribbon tweeter upgrade will add $350 for each speaker. This price is expected to increase significantly once our current supply runs out.

I will say this in advance, I was surprised at the results – this particular RAAL ribbon tweeter is as close to a near perfect high frequency transducer as I can imagine. More specifically, I honestly can’t imagine that I will ever have the privilege of measuring anything better. Forget reading subjective descriptions of it… I have documented it in detailed measurements
While the ribbon is indeed objectively superior, many listeners still prefer the sound of the NrT. So much depends on your source material and your own preferences -- it is very subjective.

And this is where things can get dangerous No, you certainly do not need better electronics. However, the ribbon is extremely revealing and about as high resolution as a transducer can get. It will more easily reveal lesser electronics than a dome tweeter.
GirgleMirt note: Hmmm... Maybe it could be my source/electronics too? :confused:

Going with the ribbons is a very expensive option and while the differences are audible, that difference is probably not worth the expense for most of our customers.

I believe for loud and dynamic home theater, most rock and hip hop -- the NrT will probably be preferred.


I kind of cherry picked some choice quotes, but shocking to read from a guy trying to upsell a $700 option. I had Ascend speakers prior to my DIY days. I always liked DavidF. I thought he was a real straight shooter.
EM

This I think sums up my thoughts on the matter, after the NrT upgrade, another tweeter upgrade, this one probably more expensive than the NrT upgrade, just wouldn't rock my world... I'd most probably skip it as I'm perfectly fine with the top end performance of the NrTs, and wouldn't invest hundreds of $ at this time for a 'marginal' upgrade... But that's me, the 'tweeter sounds fine' guy! A woofer or 3 way upgrade, probably would be more tempting as a mid/bass improvement would imho be more doable or significant than improving the top end...

But reading the thread; RAAL vs Fountek:


This is like comparing an RS28F to an Aircirc. Both are fantastic but it's not just two versions of the same thing, even though it's similar technology, there's still differences that two or three graphs alone won't show but other graphs should. Or is an RS28F as good as a Beryllium Aircirc?

One such example i've seen is people who compare Dennis Murphy's Philharmonic 1s (fountek neocd3, SB 8") with his Phil 3s (RAAL 70-10d, SS Revelator 8") - so far they've all said that while the differences in bass/lower midrange are minimal, but the differences in tweeters are well worth it, and so they consider the Phil 2s (RAAL 70-10d, SB 8") to be the optimal choice dollar for dollar.

Anyhow, I guess more reading and more listening in my case is required!


to sum up, you and I both admit that the RAAL test better from a dispersion standpoint, and a linearity standpoint (response). From a non-linear standpoint, the RAAL 70-10 and 2.0 have a similar overall cutoff frequency before THD exceeds 1% (~2500Hz). However, above that frequency, the RAAL has lower overall distortion, even though both are predominantly 2nd order. The MUCH lower moving mass of the ribbon element in the 70-10 simply does more, with less, and exhibits a more realistic presentation to the ears. I don't care if both of them were $10 each. I'd still take the 70-10 over the 2.0 every time. They just sound better. It does suck that they are expensive due to being hand made and tested. But they are amazingly consistent.
Not sure whether the Fountek '2' they're talking about is the Neo X or Neo CD models, but anyway, again, RAAL, costing about 3-4x as much as Founteks, are found to be better ;)

But anyhow, it all depends on application too as they mention... To my ears, the Founteks sound great, and the NrTs surely don't sound like mushy jello or tin cans compared to them... Some random notes/quotes on the Fountek and it's selection criteria in the design I went with:


The extended range of the W4-1337SA's enabled a high tweeter crossover point, and an easy cross to a ribbon tweeter. The Fountek NeoCd3.0 seemed like a great choice. All the drivers exhibit high marks for value, which gives this design a high performance to cost ratio.

The top end had to have realistic reproduction of triangles and cymbals while extracting the ambiance of the recording venue.
...
The only tweeter considered for the project was the Fountek NeoCD3.0. It fit perfectly in the over all design goals and the extended frequency response of the W4 allowed the ribbon to be crossed at a high enough frequency to minimize distortion. A perfect match!


Treble: Cymbals sound like cymbals and the sound of triangles float in the air. Love or hate ribbons but they do a better job of realistically reproducing the highs to my ears than any other type of tweeter. The highs are open and airy with great off axis dispersion.


Treble, well, I love ribbons so it's a hands down winner in that respect for me.

IMHO, as stated, the Fountek is <100$ and probably not the best ribbon tweeter on earth, but it's definitely no slouch. As for the NrT, I don't know exactly how it would compare to an AirCirc, 7000, Crescendo, etc., but to my ears, it does a really good job, which in the end is quite similar to the Fountek NeoCD3.0... :)

But for tweeter upgrade, going from the quote of Dave's quotes on RAAL vs NrT, makes me doubt a little more the tweeter upgrade... Well I don't know, guess we'll just have to see!

[GirgleMirt]

This was one possibility I considered as well, something like a "Signature Edition" upgrade for the Sierra-1: new woofer, tweet, and crossover. However, while the DIY should be applicable, the issue I see is cost. The Sierra drivers are already very high quality. Then you run into questions like:


what tweeter would be an upgrade to the NrT, but not cost an internal organ?



Oh yeah, and btw, did you hear the Sierra NrT tweeter? I'm just somewhat reluctant or doubtful at the notion of upgrading the NrT tweeter, as my own listening experience and perception of the whole thing is that it's a great tweeter and upgrading it will cost an arm and might even be moot...




what would a new bass driver give? Deeper extension, better mids, better efficiency? Etc., etc.
so how much is replacing all the guts going to cost me?

For your 1st point, exactly! 2nd, again, just the woofer might be doable, how much would it cost? :confused: That's the question... But I'd see little reason to upgrade the NrT tweeter... So maybe not that much more than the NrT upgrade...


While I agree that a mid-woofer addition would be "uber performance," the design could be checkmated based on Dave's quote I pulled from the first page. That seemed to be a show-stopper for the Sierra-1 3-way design (at least at the time).

The difference in sensitivity you mean? That would only apply to using the tower's mid, I'd see no reason a new or modified mid couldn't be done...


My thought was to go simple: same width and depth as the Sierra-1 cabinet, and high enough to accommodate the 5.25" mid-woofer. However, it also increases cost since more direct materials are used. Furthermore, the Sierra-1 would be more imposing and harder to place. It's probably pushing the limits of a "bookshelf" design. If a smaller woofer is used, I'm not sure how much performance one would give up for a slightly smaller module.

yeah mids can be smaller, lighter, etc., since the bass woofer will handle the bass so you really don't have to go 5 inch.. Imposing/harder to place, naaaah, I'd be incredibly surprised if 95% of Sierra owners didn't have a couple of extra inches free on top of their Sierras... Most don't put the speakers in a bookshelf!


Note to all: I'm having some fun discussing this upgrade. However, because my design experience is infinitesimal compared to Dave's, I have no illusions of competence. I hope he has a good laugh at my expense. Seriously. :D
haha, same here, all discussions on the topic are for a purely recreative purpose and shouldn't be taken seriously or as true in any sort of way! :p I'd say my knowledge on speaker design or theory would probably earn me like a 3/10, and I'm being generous!!! :D

[GirgleMirt]

Girgle...I have heard a few different ribbon tweeters, I can tell you they don't sound the same.
Oh, and btw Curtis, could you share more of your thoughts on Ribbon tweeters, RAAL, NrT, etc.? I for one would have loved to say that the ribbon tweeter of the speakers that took dozens and dozens of hours for me to build blew away the NrT, but short A/B comparison told a different story! ;)

[merrymaid520]

Wow, you guys crack me up! Won't you all be dissapointed when Dave announces the "uber" upgrade to be improved binding posts:D

[curtis]

Oh, and btw Curtis, could you share more of your thoughts on Ribbon tweeters, RAAL, NrT, etc.? I for one would have loved to say that the ribbon tweeter of the speakers that took dozens and dozens of hours for me to build blew away the NrT, but short A/B comparison told a different story! ;)
Hard to describe...

Sounds smoother with more detail, but that is kind of a contradiction.

[GirgleMirt]

Hard to describe...

Sounds smoother with more detail, but that is kind of a contradiction.

haha k, I feel like I'm pulling worms from your nose ;) So it seems your comments was about the RAAL tweeter vs NrT, and not all ribbon tweeter.. My experience was mainly with the Fountek as mentioned. Btw did you get the RAAL towers?

[Mag_Neato]

I got it!!

A direct/reflecting tweeter array! Finally, licensing has become available from the inventor of this coveted technology, B*se, and now we Ascend customers will finally benefit!!

So when do we get the one-note bass Acoustamass technology to go with it?;)

[Dark Ranger]

Wow, you guys crack me up! Won't you all be dissapointed when Dave announces the "uber" upgrade to be improved binding posts:D

Upgraded binding posts? I never thought about that option. Sweet!! :D

I love the current Sierra-1 binding posts, but I've always felt it colored the sound in a palpable way. The vocal presence seemed overly crystalline with not enough top-end air, while bass delivery could be a touch "wooden."

I think the overall sonic quality of the Sierra-1 could be improved by upgrading the binding post material. The best choice would be to use superconducting rhenium overlaid with a graphite/Delrin shield. The added benefit is that it could filter out harmful RF waves commonly known to impact sound quality.


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to throw up now. :p

[kwarny]

Did you guys not get the email from Dave :confused:????

The first upgrade is the stand for the Sierra. This will host the Rotary sub for the low frequencies. The sierra woofer will also move down here in a separated compartment and be servo controlled.

Uptop on the speaker cabinet, a new beryllium midrange will fit into the hole where the woofer use to reside. The last upgrade will be a plasma tweeter (have not read about this technology but from the looks of it, it should keep those pesky little fingers away after the first touch).

You guys creating all these rumors. :rolleyes:

[Dark Ranger]

I got it!!

A direct/reflecting tweeter array! Finally, licensing has become available from the inventor of this coveted technology, B*se, and now we Ascend customers will finally benefit!!

So when do we get the one-note bass Acoustamass technology to go with it?;)

Everyone knows B**e is the best. ;)

Funny story: back when I worked in live audio, I had a friend who mixed some of the shows as front of house engineer. I did enjoy his style of mixing, although some of the venues did give us a challenge. Anyway, I went over his house one time for a movie marathon. I heard he had quite a sound system. Imagine my surprise when I discovered a 5.1 Acoustimass setup! I never did figure out why...maybe he just liked the tiny cubes. :p

[Mag_Neato]

Hmm.....rotary subs, Beryllium mids AND a Plasma tweeter? All we need now are Kryptonite caps in the crossover and we will have a genuine "Super" speaker!!

C'mon Dave, admit it.....we figured it out!:D

[kwarny]

Oh I missed a part of the email. :cool:

-"You can also send your fiance/wife's engagement ring in for a custom made diamond tweeter".

[Dark Ranger]

The first upgrade is the stand for the Sierra. This will host the Rotary sub for the low frequencies. The sierra woofer will also move down here in a separated compartment and be servo controlled.

Uptop on the speaker cabinet, a new beryllium midrange will fit into the hole where the woofer use to reside. The last upgrade will be a plasma tweeter (have not read about this technology but from the looks of it, it should keep those pesky little fingers away after the first touch).

And these upgrades could be ours for the low, low price of $5,000 USD? What a deal! I really want that rotary sub.



All we need now are Kryptonite caps in the crossover and we will have a genuine "Super" speaker!!

Hmm, I see what you did there. ;)

[Mag_Neato]

Oh I missed a part of the email. :cool:

-"You can also send your fiance/wife's engagement ring in for a custom made diamond tweeter".

Now that's gonna have a VERY low WAF!!

[Mag_Neato]

And these upgrades could be ours for the low, low price of $5,000 USD? What a deal! I really want that rotary sub.




Hmm, I see what you did there. ;)


Uh oh....I'd better add lead shielding to thwart your X-Ray vision!

[Dark Ranger]

Ok let me just preface with this. For some reason, maybe it's a lack of golden ears or experience/exposure, I've always been 'fine' with ultra high end tweeters. For example, the tweets in the JMLabs Utopia, in the Dynaudio Confidence series, in the B&Ws Nautilus/800 series, in Wilson Audios, etc., all sound fine to me... They're most often the least of my complaints. I've read some complaints about such tweeters, but I guess I'm just not that sensitive to them, and find complaints about them a bit weird. That said, I've also heard a couple of ribbons in Verity audio, ProAcs, MBL, PSB, Aurum Camtus, etc... And as the metal/soft dome featured in the flagship products of most company, also found most of them very very good, and yeah sure in some case did definitely notice a significant difference between these tweeter types, it wasn't as I had been struck by lighting and thought I could never listen to a dome tweeter ever again... It was enough to intrigue me though, and I decided going for a ribbon in my next speakers :)

Well, FWIW I don't think you're crazy. ;)

The fact that the high-end tweeters all sound good makes complete sense. All of the components in the "elite" loudspeakers are high-quality, so in my opinion there are more similarities than differences. It becomes more about implementation than individual component quality. One runs into diminishing returns at a certain level.

Consider exotic super cars from Pagani, Lamborghini, and Bugatti. They all use extremely high-quality materials for lightness, strength, and performance such as carbon fiber, titanium, and exotic ceramics. Everyone is using the best stuff at this level in the game, so the challenge becomes pushing the envelope and giving physics a black eye. It's about implementation.


This I think sums up my thoughts on the matter, after the NrT upgrade, another tweeter upgrade, this one probably more expensive than the NrT upgrade, just wouldn't rock my world... I'd most probably skip it as I'm perfectly fine with the top end performance of the NrTs, and wouldn't invest hundreds of $ at this time for a 'marginal' upgrade... But that's me, the 'tweeter sounds fine' guy! A woofer or 3 way upgrade, probably would be more tempting as a mid/bass improvement would imho be more doable or significant than improving the top end...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Dave understands only a percentage will opt for the uber performance upgrade. I'm sure he understands that some will be happy with stock performance, others with NrT performance, and there will be some who simply cannot afford the upgrade. However, this upgrade could attract new customers who believed the Sierra-1 didn't quite have the chops to swim with bigger fish.


But for tweeter upgrade, going from the quote of Dave's quotes on RAAL vs NrT, makes me doubt a little more the tweeter upgrade... Well I don't know, guess we'll just have to see!

...and it'll be the longest year of my life. :p

[Dark Ranger]

Oh yeah, and btw, did you hear the Sierra NrT tweeter? I'm just somewhat reluctant or doubtful at the notion of upgrading the NrT tweeter, as my own listening experience and perception of the whole thing is that it's a great tweeter and upgrading it will cost an arm and might even be moot...

I have not yet heard the NrT in person although I've done extensive research on it. I decided to wait on upgrading my Sierra-1s for two reasons:

1) I really needed to replace other equipment in the signal chain

2) The Sierras already sound very darn good

I would eventually upgrade (probably next year), but now I will hold off to see what Dave has cooking. I have a Horizon with RAAL tweeter. When I was planning the center channel upgrade, I originally settled on the NrT. Dave's measurements and feedback on the RAAL's incredible performance caused me to seriously consider the ribbon upgrade. I'm glad I did, it's really quite special.


The difference in sensitivity you mean? That would only apply to using the tower's mid, I'd see no reason a new or modified mid couldn't be done...

yeah mids can be smaller, lighter, etc., since the bass woofer will handle the bass so you really don't have to go 5 inch.. Imposing/harder to place, naaaah, I'd be incredibly surprised if 95% of Sierra owners didn't have a couple of extra inches free on top of their Sierras... Most don't put the speakers in a bookshelf!

True, one could use a different midrange transducer. Perhaps SEAS or another OEM just finished baking a brand new midrange woofer with the exact sensitivity Dave needs for a 3-way Sierra-1. :p

To be honest, I'm kinda out of ideas, so I probably won't say too much more...that is until Dave gives us another bone to chew on. :D

Fact is, there are only a few possibilities since this is a DIY upgrade. It has to be reasonably simple (for customers), but offer "significant" improvements. If you're right GirgleMirt, I'm sure there will be a lot of happy customers. I just haven't decided to toss the proverbial coin yet...

Heads: new tweeter/crossover
Tails: "SE" type upgrade
Edge of coin: mid-range upgrade :D :p :cool:

[Mag_Neato]

Just bumpin' this thread!

Dave, any more teasers for us audio nutjobs?!!:D

[hearing specialist]

I remember the Phoenix Gold Rotary sub back in my car audio competition days (mid 90's). In fact in 1996 I was top 10 (pro 1-100/150 watt class) at both USAC and IASCA World Finals and the guy that beat me out in the IASCA event used this exact sub. It was really strange sounding as I listened but the low freqs were there just different sensation. FWIW...


Brian in Bakersfield...

[Bigg35]

Can somebody please explain to me, what, or if, are the new upgrades going to be for the Sierra-1's? There seems to be some joking around in this thread, but I can't tell who is being serious and never received an email from Dave regarding any Sierra-1 upgrades???

Did Dave really send out any emails with details about the Sierra-1 upgrades?

Does anyone know what, or if, the upgrades are going to be?

[GirgleMirt]

I have not yet heard the NrT in person although I've done extensive research on it. I decided to wait on upgrading my Sierra-1s for two reasons:

1) I really needed to replace other equipment in the signal chain

2) The Sierras already sound very darn good

I would eventually upgrade (probably next year), but now I will hold off to see what Dave has cooking. I have a Horizon with RAAL tweeter. When I was planning the center channel upgrade, I originally settled on the NrT. Dave's measurements and feedback on the RAAL's incredible performance caused me to seriously consider the ribbon upgrade. I'm glad I did, it's really quite special.
Your amp I'm guessing? Amps don't make a huge difference in my experience... The NrT upgrade is exponentially more significant than having a non-overdriven decent amp and replacing it with an expensive one. Speakers basically make all of the difference.

But yeah now since a new upgrade was announced, might be a good idea to hold off on an NrT upgrade... (maybe Dave can weigh in on the matter to see if this is indeed the case? I'm guessing probably...)


True, one could use a different midrange transducer. Perhaps SEAS or another OEM just finished baking a brand new midrange woofer with the exact sensitivity Dave needs for a 3-way Sierra-1. :p
I guess developing or modifying an existing woofer would be viable for for a minimum number of orders... As the NrT tweeter was used for the Sierra NrT upgrade and the towers, it makes more sense than a maybe very limited of custom midrange driver for a Sierra-1 upgrade... Costs add up especially with the cabinet, so maybe finding an existing mid (and maybe modifying slightly?) might be the solution...


To be honest, I'm kinda out of ideas, so I probably won't say too much more...that is until Dave gives us another bone to chew on. :D

Fact is, there are only a few possibilities since this is a DIY upgrade. It has to be reasonably simple (for customers), but offer "significant" improvements. If you're right GirgleMirt, I'm sure there will be a lot of happy customers. I just haven't decided to toss the proverbial coin yet...

Heads: new tweeter/crossover
Tails: "SE" type upgrade
Edge of coin: mid-range upgrade :D :p :cool:

hehe SE for woofer might be tempting too... Not sure how doable/practical it would be, or the performance gain... But I think most modifications would require crossover modification, which would mean a crossover for the regular Sierra and one for the NrT... The mid cabinet too I would guess for the original Sierra, but at that point, a NrT upgrade might be necessary, so maybe would be the same for this 'SE' woofer upgrade...

[GirgleMirt]

Can somebody please explain to me, what, or if, are the new upgrades going to be for the Sierra-1's? There seems to be some joking around in this thread, but I can't tell who is being serious and never received an email from Dave regarding any Sierra-1 upgrades???

Did Dave really send out any emails with details about the Sierra-1 upgrades?

Does anyone know what, or if, the upgrades are going to be?
I think it's clear at this time that the upgrade will be pure oxygenated and cryogenic silver internal wire, these wires, unlike regular wire, allows to conduct electricticy without adding any sort of garbage or distortion, the result is a pure, oxygnated sound, free of any sort of garbage or distortion, easily audible by the human ear. Cryogenic really adds a new layer of technology on top of this wire, which makes it even more awesome and purer sounding than ever it could be without this cryo. This cryo isn't the regular type of cryo, it's done with very special cooling in a very special place that adds even more layers of information to this wire. The result is an even better wire that improves the sound unlike any other wire can improve the sound, really adds nuances and make a blacker background than ANY wire ever black backgrounded music... So black some have said it reminds them of a black hole, which is the name of the wire, black hole silver wire cryo wire, also creates a black hole effect in your wallet, if you can believe it... :eek: Surely the best 499.99$ you could spend for upgrading the Sierras, and the most awesome part, works with both original Sierra and NrT Sierra, even the 340SE or 170SE... Can be applied to ANY speaker... Hurry, quantities are limited... Order now and you'll also get a special green marker to upgrade all of your CDs by drawing on their edges... Really takes it to the next level (http://www.qwikstory.com/story_img/1338929206PzKVqbDTiT.jpg). This is a level 1 upgrade, level 2 upgrade coming soon ;)

[hearing specialist]

Sierra 1's with RAAL's ... sweet!

[curtis]

Can somebody please explain to me, what, or if, are the new upgrades going to be for the Sierra-1's? There seems to be some joking around in this thread, but I can't tell who is being serious and never received an email from Dave regarding any Sierra-1 upgrades???

Did Dave really send out any emails with details about the Sierra-1 upgrades?

Does anyone know what, or if, the upgrades are going to be?
Bigg,

All these guys making posts are goofing around and speculating.

In all seriousness, all Dave has posted, is that he is working on something, but he has not said what it is.

No emails have been sent out.

Unless you see a post from davef, take everything that is posted as being speculation or a joke. Go back to post #35 in this thread to see Dave's original post.

[Mag_Neato]

^^^ What Curtis said!

We are just attempting to entertain ourselves;)

Until you see something from Dave himself take everything here with a grain of salt.

[Dark Ranger]

All these guys making posts are goofing around and speculating.

Guilty as charged! :D


Bigg,

We're just having some fun tossing around possibilities from a customer's standpoint. As curtis said, this is only speculation and fun. Dave will post an update when he can disclose more info, and I think we all understand that. :)


@ GirgleMirt,

I'll get back with you later tonight. Heading out for the afternoon and evening. ;)

[Dark Ranger]

I decided to wait on upgrading my Sierra-1s for two reasons:

1) I really needed to replace other equipment in the signal chain
...


Your amp I'm guessing? Amps don't make a huge difference in my experience... The NrT upgrade is exponentially more significant than having a non-overdriven decent amp and replacing it with an expensive one. Speakers basically make all of the difference.

Yes, upgrading my electronics was part of the plan. I don't want to derail this thread too much by talking about my gear, but let me clarify.

I wanted to replace my mains, subwoofer, and center speaker first, because I knew the biggest improvement would come from that. However, I was using a $250 Denon receiver I picked up on clearance 5 years ago. That's all I could afford at the time and it fit my needs just fine. Today, however, it's a different story entirely: no HDMI, no support for lossless formats, not rated for 4 ohm loads, and certainly cannot do 75 watts x 7 into 8 ohms all channels driven.

Anyway, I debated for months on the best option for upgrade. Ultimately I decided to go with "separates" instead of a high-end receiver (I was considering the Yamaha RX-A3010 among others). I assure you that upgrading my electronics (pre/pro, amps, & DAC) from a low-end AVR provided nearly the same improvement as the speaker upgrade itself. It was literally night and day.

With that said, I completely agree with you that speakers are the biggest determining factor with sound quality, followed by room acoustics/treatment. However, electronics like processors and amplifiers are also important. The audio signal must travel through many devices before reaching one's ears. The weakest link in the chain, whether a speaker, amp, or DAC can affect the entire outcome. In other words, achieving optimal synergy in a given system creates a sum that is greater than the parts.

For example, most people would look at me funny if I dropped $2,700 on a pair of Towers, and then powered them with a $250 receiver. A more appropriate pairing would be a mid-range to high-end receiver, or a nice pre/pro and amplifier.

However, what I think you're getting at is this (correct me if I'm wrong): if one already has decent electronics, amps, etc., than any upgrades will be incremental at best. I believe this follows the principle of diminishing returns. This is one reason that I (and probably most of us here) believe in Ascend's mission. It's not about obtaining the last 5% of audio perfection (because that costs $$,$$$), it's about the 95% before it.

At this point in the game, I'm basically done with my system upgrades except for one other component I'm waiting on. I've got a nice balance of quality and performance in every area, and the bottlenecks are now extremely small. Any further performance gains with electronics will likely cost more than I'm willing to spend.

Oh, by the way...I just totaled up the cost for my two amps, DAC, and pre/pro and it's actually less than what I paid for my STC/Horizon with RAAL upgrade. I got all the electronics on sale or on clearance over the past two months. :D


But yeah now since a new upgrade was announced, might be a good idea to hold off on an NrT upgrade... (maybe Dave can weigh in on the matter to see if this is indeed the case? I'm guessing probably...)

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I'd rather just put the money towards the new uber performance upgrade instead of going NrT, and then upgrading again in less than 6 months.


hehe SE for woofer might be tempting too... Not sure how doable/practical it would be, or the performance gain... But I think most modifications would require crossover modification, which would mean a crossover for the regular Sierra and one for the NrT... The mid cabinet too I would guess for the original Sierra, but at that point, a NrT upgrade might be necessary, so maybe would be the same for this 'SE' woofer upgrade...

I could be wrong on the "SE" upgrade, it was just one idea I had to fuel the rumor mill. My thought was that it would replace the entire guts of the Sierra-1: tweeter, woofer, and crossover. Honestly, I'd be surprised considering how good the Sierra-1 woofer really is.

In the meantime, I guess I'll sit tight for Dave's next post and buy some of that cryo wire you mentioned. The nice salesman told me I could achieve oneness with the universe by purchasing the $8,500 1-foot interconnect cable. :p

[davef]

Good news Dave! I'll admit, I am bit nervous.....will this "upgrade" effect the Towers? I really cant swing any more A/V purchases for a while:eek:

Hi Brandon,

No worries :) ... this will not affect the Sierra Towers.

[natetg57]

Dave, it may be too early to reveal this..but will the 'uber' upgrade be in addition to the nrt upgrade or instead of? any timeframe on the big reveal?

[Mag_Neato]

natetg57,

Dave mentioned in one of his posts starting with post #35 that this would be an upgrade for the standard Sierra-1 as well as the NrT. Which to me means either a ribbon tweeter or woofer change.

[merrymaid520]

Hi Brandon,

No worries :) ... this will not affect the Sierra Towers.

Thanks Dave! Congrats on the Sierra-1 upgrade, I am sure it will be well worth it for those interested.

[Mag_Neato]

Dave, I have a couple of questions:confused:

Will this upgrade cost more than the NrT upgrade?

Is this upgrade non-dependant upon which version we have, i.e. standard Sierra-1 or NrT?

Thanks;)

[Dark Ranger]

Is this upgrade non-dependant upon which version we have, i.e. standard Sierra-1 or NrT?


While I can not post details just yet, we have made a rather significant investment into the future of the Sierra-1 / Sierra-1 NrT.

The way I read this, Dave is saying it applies to both versions of the Sierra-1. That tells me a thing or two about what the upgrade could be.

[davef]

Dave, I have a couple of questions:confused:

Will this upgrade cost more than the NrT upgrade?

Is this upgrade non-dependant upon which version we have, i.e. standard Sierra-1 or NrT?

Thanks;)

Hi Mag,

I am quite aways away from final pricing on this upgrade but yes, I would estimate that this will cost more than the NrT upgrade.


Is this upgrade non-dependant upon which version we have, i.e. standard Sierra-1 or NrT?

Both will be upgradeable :)

More than likely, this will be an entirely new version of the Sierra-1 and will be called the Sierra-2. Sierra-1/Sierra-1 NrT will be upgradeable to Sierra-2 and this option is my #1 priority.

[Mag_Neato]

Thanks, Dave! I was hoping the cost would be similar to the NrT but suspected that it would be higher.

Sierra-2? Now there's something to chew on!

[davef]

It's probably either:

Bluetooth radio for wireless connectivity
Waterproof enclosure that looks like a rock for outdoor use


:D


Emphasis mine. I think the hint is the DIY option, not to mention the "uber performance." That does narrow it down based on what we know from previously mentioned prototype designs.

Yup, Dave knows how to tease us. :D


Might I add additional possibilities to logicology's list:

internal Class-H amplification of 2000 watts into 8 ohms (>120 dB SN @ 1 watt)
chameleon finish options to automatically blend into any decor
nano technology upgrade for improved sonic performance when evaluated in the realm of quantum mechanics


Whatever it is, I gotta have it! :D


Wow, you guys crack me up! Won't you all be dissapointed when Dave announces the "uber" upgrade to be improved binding posts:D


I got it!!

A direct/reflecting tweeter array! Finally, licensing has become available from the inventor of this coveted technology, B*se, and now we Ascend customers will finally benefit!!

So when do we get the one-note bass Acoustamass technology to go with it?;)


Did you guys not get the email from Dave :confused:????

The first upgrade is the stand for the Sierra. This will host the Rotary sub for the low frequencies. The sierra woofer will also move down here in a separated compartment and be servo controlled.

Uptop on the speaker cabinet, a new beryllium midrange will fit into the hole where the woofer use to reside. The last upgrade will be a plasma tweeter (have not read about this technology but from the looks of it, it should keep those pesky little fingers away after the first touch).

You guys creating all these rumors. :rolleyes:


Hmm.....rotary subs, Beryllium mids AND a Plasma tweeter? All we need now are Kryptonite caps in the crossover and we will have a genuine "Super" speaker!!

C'mon Dave, admit it.....we figured it out!:D


Oh I missed a part of the email. :cool:

-"You can also send your fiance/wife's engagement ring in for a custom made diamond tweeter".

I just read through all of these posts... Very funny!! I really like the one with Kryptonite caps and sending in your wife's engagement ring to turn into a diamond tweeter :D

[Bigg35]

Difficult to say at this point, within a year though. I still have to work out some details but I believe the most challenging part is done. We are essentially designing and building custom parts from the ground up and committing to large enough purchase quantities to take maximum advantage of volume discounting to keep price points reasonable.

To be perfectly frank, the success of the Sierra towers has allowed us to make a significant investment back into our company and you, our customers, are going to be the beneficiaries :)


Hey, Dave. Is this upgrade going to be able to work for those of us who already own existing Sierra-1's? For example, the standard Sierra-1 tweeter that is upgradable to the Nrt. Or would we have to purchase a whole new pair of speakers?

I would personally like to see this upgrade for those who already own Sierra-1's.

[Mag_Neato]

Hey, Dave. Is this upgrade going to be able to work for those of us who already own existing Sierra-1's? For example, the standard Sierra-1 tweeter that is upgradable to the Nrt. Or would we have to purchase a whole new pair of speakers?

I would personally like to see this upgrade for those who already own Sierra-1's.

See post #94!

[Elmo]

ive been considering buying your speakers for a long time but now i might wait even longer gahhhhh

[JustaSheep]

ive been considering buying your speakers for a long time but now i might wait even longer gahhhhh

If I remember correctly, Elmo, Ascend has a very generous upgrade policy for Ascend speaker owners. I think he said this upgrade could be made for current Sierra 1/NrT owners, too.

Of course, you could just go for the towers which may never be improved upon. ;)

Just a thought.

Sheep

[Mag_Neato]

If I remember correctly, Elmo, Ascend has a very generous upgrade policy for Ascend speaker owners. I think he said this upgrade could be made for current Sierra 1/NrT owners, too.

Of course, you could just go for the towers which may never be improved upon. ;)

Just a thought.

Sheep

Dave did mention the upgrade will be available for us current Sierra-1 NrT, and NON-NrT owners, in post #94.

I am waiting for new info on this and check here regularly. Dave said he has a lot of finishing up to do on the details, so don't expect any real details in the near future. I would feel safe in ordering the Sierra-1's now if you want to enjoy them, rather than make yourself wait, knowing that whatever Dave is cooking up will be available as either a factory upgrade, or as DIY down the road.

As for the towers, Dave is always exploring ways to improve his speakers, so don't think for a minute he is "content" with his flagship!

[Dark Ranger]

ive been considering buying your speakers for a long time but now i might wait even longer gahhhhh

Hi Elmo,

Since you're posting in this thread, I figure you have more interest in the Sierra-1 monitors rather than Ascend's other products. As Sheep and Mag offered, the upgrade will apply for any current Sierra-1 owners. This means that you can buy now, enjoy, and then upgrade later if you want every last bit of performance.

Dave estimates this upgrade to be available within a year or so. If you're in no rush to purchase, then by all means, wait it out. However, if you're itching to try out the Ascends, I suggest purchasing a Sierra-1 pair now. If you decide to spring for the upgrade later, the financial investment will be spread out. You won't have to pay the full price for the Sierra-2 (tentative product identifier) all up front. The current Sierra-1 is quite remarkable.

You're welcome. :D



As for the towers, Dave is always exploring ways to improve his speakers, so don't think for a minute he is "content" with his flagship!

Blasphemy! The Towers embody perfection in every way, so how can one improve on perfection? :eek:

Actually, I'm more serious than facetious here. This is one reason I love Ascend: the passion for "Reaching the Peak of Audio Purity" is more than just a motto. :cool:

[RicardoJoa]

I ve been reading this post and my thoughts about next phase sierra1 and nrt would be a new woofer. A Raal upgrade doesnt really make much sense to me mainly due to the price though. I personally think the standard tweeter are great, they will let you listen to music for a long time without fatigue. Also, it doesnt make sense for those who upgraded to nrt from the standard sierra to upgrade the tweeter again. I think Dave might be focusing on the midrange this time. Since this a bookshelf, it is perfectly ok to loose a few HZ down low and focus purely on midrange with a better construction. Low end could be adressed by sub.

Just my thought.

[Mag_Neato]

Well, whatever it is I wish Dave could post more details about it:confused:

Anything......tease us Dave!!:D

[Mag_Neato]

OK, after some more thought about this upgrade, I am going to go out on a limb here and hazard another guess.;)

Seeing how this will be applicable to current Sierra-1 & NrT owners, as well as being available for direct purchase as the "Sierra-2", I am now beginning to think of this as a mini-tower, using the same drivers as the Sierra-1 & NrT but with a new, floorstanding cabinet which would extend the low frequency response as well as allowing the woofer, via the larger cabinet taking on more of the low end, to better handle the mids. Efficiency would most likely increase as well.

So how about it everyone......am I on to something?:eek:

[RicardoJoa]

I think the idea about upgrade sierra 1 and nrt, is that the current owners could enjoy without buying a whole new speaker. Dave had mentioned that the upgrade would be more expensive then the upgrade to the nrt.
If it is goint to be a raal tweetet upgrade, whats is the probability that people are willing to pay at least 700 or even more. What would be the probability that people are going to modify the internal cuout to fit the raal transformer plus changing the crossover? if is not a driver change, could it be possible to add a dedicated midrange cabinet on top of the sierra? i dont think this would yield a good setup. I still think a woofer change could be possible , with similar design as the midrange in the tower but are able to handle lower frequencies.

[davef]

Well, whatever it is I wish Dave could post more details about it:confused:

Anything......tease us Dave!!:D

Hi Guys,

So sorry about the delay. I really wish I could post more details but nothing is 100% just yet. These are fully customized components for us and I am not comfortable posting public details until I have approved final samples and the parts are in production.

With regard to a timeline, I hope to be able to approve final samples within 2-months. From there I would estimate 3-4 months for production and delivery.

Great things coming... I promise :)

[Dark Ranger]

Thanks for the update! :D

No worries, I think we all understand the prudence required at this phase in the project. Sometimes the close-knit community approach we have here makes it difficult to remember that you're still running a specialized business. It's just that we know something wonderful is in the pipeline. :cool:

Thanks for taking the time to post a little update for us. It is appreciated.

[RicardoJoa]

I know we are all anxious but good stuff usually needs time.

[Mag_Neato]

Dave, don't sweat it. I know when the time is right you will give us the goods!

Sounds like early Spring to me?!!;)

[davef]

Thanks to everyone for understanding :)

[j0nnyfive]

Just popping in at random to say.... Sierra-2??? :D :D :D :D :D :D YES!!!!!! Dave you da MAN!!!!! WOOHOO!!!!!! I'm okay. Just a little adrenaline. Whew! I love em little bookshelves. :D (happy dance happy dance)

[davef]

Just popping in at random to say.... Sierra-2??? :D :D :D :D :D :D YES!!!!!! Dave you da MAN!!!!! WOOHOO!!!!!! I'm okay. Just a little adrenaline. Whew! I love em little bookshelves. :D (happy dance happy dance)

I think you are going to be very, very happy :D

[Mag_Neato]

I think you are going to be very, very happy :D

Do tell, oh mighty speaker wizard!!:D

[j0nnyfive]

I have 2 home theaters planned for my future. :) "Beauty and the Beast." lol

Beauty: Beautiful TV, beautiful sound. Plasma-like picture with Sierra-2 and possibly a couple Rythmiks. Although that's debatable because the Sierra's bass is stupendous.

Beast: Projector with some gigantic high efficiency horn-loaded speakers featuring JBL 2226 woofers and a pair of subs with crazy output. (I can't resist lol). (This will sound beautiful as well, but a different type of beautiful.)



Heck, I'm still amazed by my CMT-340se's. So are my friends. I would have to say (and I've read this somewhere else before) that the CMT-340se is probably, pound-for-pound, the best bang-for-buck speaker you can get. I think it's the best 50/50 music/movie speaker you can get for it's price range. I sound like a fanboy/advertiser I know. Sue me. :p I don't care. I'm gonna go crank my CMTs. :) Mwahahaha

P.S. I have no subs either. Still sounds great. Very fun speakers.

[parimento1]

would love to see a small 3-way bookshelf : )

[curtis]

would love to see a small 3-way bookshelf : )
What would you consider small? It will have to be bigger than the current Sierra 1/NrT.

[parimento1]

Actually I was thinking of something similar in size to the NHT Classic 3 or the KEF Reference 201/2. Its just my opinion that most 3-way designs sound better than 2-ways, especially in the midrange, while not sacrificing bass as much.


What would you consider small? It will have to be bigger than the current Sierra 1/NrT.

[mziegler]

I think a three way would be the size of the 340, at least according to Dave.

[Mag_Neato]

Just popping in to give this a bump.

And hoping to see any kind of teaser from Dave!:D

[Dark Ranger]

Just popping in to give this a bump.

And hoping to see any kind of teaser from Dave!:D

Ya know, Mag, my heart skips a beat every time I see this thread marked with new posts. I am aware of Dave's timeline mentioned earlier, but part of me thinks "what if...maybe we have early news." :D

...and it turns out to be just a bump. Not cool. :p

[Chops]

There are other speakers on the market that have incorporated a tweeter & mid-range together in the same foot print. I don't know how successful these speakers are. Isn't the front of the Sierra-1 removeable so a new front might be part of the upgrade? Maybe a 3 way is possible.

[GirgleMirt]

Nah, front baffle is non removable, its a one piece cabinet. The NrT upgrade updated tweeter which was same size as old tweeter so you unscrewed the original one and replaced it with the new. Maybe the new upgrade will be RAAL tweeter, with a new mid, port block for the 'sealed' new mid, a new larger bass woofer and a new bass cabinet, making it a 3 way ;) nah I joke, although still like my mid cabinet idea.


Idea: if tweeter upgrade, could call it MrT upgrade, although I believe it is copyrighted...

[choirbass]

There are other speakers on the market that have incorporated a tweeter & mid-range together in the same foot print. I don't know how successful these speakers are. Isn't the front of the Sierra-1 removeable so a new front might be part of the upgrade? Maybe a 3 way is possible.

Maybe a 3-way, but I dunno.. Dave did post awhile back when he assembled a 3 way sierra-1 due to numerous requests for it, he simply wasn't happy with the results. A 3 way NrT Sierra-1 was as expensive as a tower, but didn't offer the kind of performance he desired to really be worth it.

Along those lines, a modified tower 'could' be brought closer to the dimensions of a Sierra-1, much like lowering the height of the Horizon center, tho other dimensions would need to be increased to compensate. There's also the possibility that the results may 'still' be unsatisfactory like before.

It is why I've mentioned the possibility of a RAAL Sierra-1, as it simply supplies a lot of the detail a mid driver would offer due to it being able to have a lower crossover than the NrT, negating more of the need for a 3 way. And being the type of ribbon it is, that says a lot for what it can offer. It isn't quite a Sierra Tower, but it is close.

edit.. here's his post. memory is a bit faulty, so this should correct where I misquoted:


""
OK -- here we go

Since work began on the towers, must be at least 3 years ago now --- I have seriously challenged myself on coming up with an affordable bookshelf speaker that uses the mid from the tower and the NrT dome. I have built several prototypes and have had this same conversation during several open house listening sessions with both Ascend owners and non-Ascend owners.

The issue that I continually run into is that to deliver the type of midrange detail and quick transients, the tower mid uses an extremely lightweight cone and the overall suspension / motor system is also very low mass. This mid has the lowest MMS of any 5 1/4" "cone" based woofer I have ever come across and the moving mass of this woofer is actually less than half that of the Sierra-1 woofer. It is the reason why it is capable of delivering tremendous levels of detail with very quick and accurate transients.

Having this low of an MMS comes at price, the mid has a natural roll off that starts in the 180Hz range. I could design a ported version and possibly extend the low end to be -3dB at about 100Hz, but a ported version will not provide the same great transient accuracy and I am not fond of high crossover points to a subwoofer (100Hz etc.)

With that in mind, I built a prototype using this mid, one Sierra-1 woofer and the NrT dome. The problem with this is that there is a significant difference in efficiency between the two different woofers and both the tweeter and the mid have to be padded down by at least 4-5 dB. This 3-way bookshelf speaker, or LCR, would only be slightly less expensive than our Sierra Tower and I was simply not able to get the performance I would have liked. The beauty in the Sierra Tower is that the sensitivity of the dual 5 1/4" woofers match the mid and that matches the NrT dome (and even the RAAL, which has a custom impedance / sensitivity profile for us). There is almost zero padding on any of the transducers in the Sierra Tower which means the efficiency on all the components is maximized.

Keeping the bass response of the Sierra-1 intact is important to me, a very large percentage of our customers use these in 2-way systems without a subwoofer. So, how do we keep the bass response and yet provide even more midrange detail? The NrT upgrade does a good job of this as we cross a bit lower so more midrange detail comes from the tweeter, which is quite robust and can handle it with ease.

Along this same line of thought, I have built a custom Sierra-1 with our RAAL 70-20XR. With this particular ribbon, I can cross even lower and just as important, the slope of the high pass can be shallower. This allows less of the upper mids (the critical area where detail is sensed) to be reproduced by the woofer and instead is reproduced by the most detailed transducer I know of, the RAAL... The results of this combination is exceptional and while not as detailed as our Sierra Tower, for a 2-way bookshelf speaker it has to be amongst the best out there. The problem with this is the expense After completing the BOM, the price of our RAAL Sierra-1 will come out to be $1798/pair. Certainly not high for anything with a RAAL tweeter, especially a 70-20XR with AM core -- but, I just don't know if this would be marketable and it will not be possible to "upgrade" existing Sierra-1.

So here is where I look to forum feedback -- at $1798 / pair, would there be demand for a RAAL Sierra-1?
""

[davef]

There are other speakers on the market that have incorporated a tweeter & mid-range together in the same foot print. I don't know how successful these speakers are. Isn't the front of the Sierra-1 removeable so a new front might be part of the upgrade? Maybe a 3 way is possible.

Keep in mind that when used with active bass management and a dedicated subwoofer, you essentially have a 3-way system ;)

[Mag_Neato]

Keep in mind that when used with active bass management and a dedicated subwoofer, you essentially have a 3-way system ;)

Good point. The main difference being: A 3-way speaker has an optimized crossover integrating the high/mid/bass frequencies, where a sub/sat system has to be tweaked by the end user in their home. Also, a big advantage of the tower is having a dedicated midrange driver which never sees any low frequencies below the optimal range for mid frequency reproduction.

As good as a 2-way design can be, once you hear it next to a good 3-way with proper mid-range integration the advantage becomes obvious. Sort of like comparing the old Dolby Pro-logic, which used "Logic" matrixing to separate the channels, to Dolby TrueHD. Things become clearer and better focused.

So Dave, how did I do?;)

[SpeedD408]

Along this same line of thought, I have built a custom Sierra-1 with our RAAL 70-20XR. With this particular ribbon, I can cross even lower and just as important, the slope of the high pass can be shallower. This allows less of the upper mids (the critical area where detail is sensed) to be reproduced by the woofer and instead is reproduced by the most detailed transducer I know of, the RAAL... The results of this combination is exceptional and while not as detailed as our Sierra Tower, for a 2-way bookshelf speaker it has to be amongst the best out there. The problem with this is the expense After completing the BOM, the price of our RAAL Sierra-1 will come out to be $1798/pair. Certainly not high for anything with a RAAL tweeter, especially a 70-20XR with AM core -- but, I just don't know if this would be marketable and it will not be possible to "upgrade" existing Sierra-1.

So here is where I look to forum feedback -- at $1798 / pair, would there be demand for a RAAL Sierra-1?
""

Feedback... $1798/pair is a bit steep to me. However, I will be in the market for this. I'm working on saving for a set of Sierra Towers and Horizon (all with the RAAL's) for my front stage and I'm a firm believer in matching components. Therefore, I would want this option for my side surrounds probably overkill and probably not needed at all for the rear surrounds but it is something I would want.

thanks.

[RicardoJoa]

Feedback... $1798/pair is a bit steep to me. However, I will be in the market for this. I'm working on saving for a set of Sierra Towers and Horizon (all with the RAAL's) for my front stage and I'm a firm believer in matching components. Therefore, I would want this option for my side surrounds probably overkill and probably not needed at all for the rear surrounds but it is something I would want.

thanks.

If you are interested in matching components you should go with a pair of tower for surround. Having a raal sierra1 doesnt fully match the towers and center.

[SpeedD408]

If you are interested in matching components you should go with a pair of tower for surround. Having a raal sierra1 doesnt fully match the towers and center.

I wouldn't be able to do towers for surrounds. I would have to do the horizons. I just think that would be overkill.

[davef]

Feedback... $1798/pair is a bit steep to me. However, I will be in the market for this. I'm working on saving for a set of Sierra Towers and Horizon (all with the RAAL's) for my front stage and I'm a firm believer in matching components. Therefore, I would want this option for my side surrounds probably overkill and probably not needed at all for the rear surrounds but it is something I would want.

thanks.

We will have a ribbon speaker that perfectly compliments the Towers/Horizon.


If you are interested in matching components you should go with a pair of tower for surround. Having a raal sierra1 doesnt fully match the towers and center.

Unless you go with the exact same speaker as the fronts, no rear/surround speaker will fully match the fronts.


I wouldn't be able to do towers for surrounds. I would have to do the horizons. I just think that would be overkill.

Horizons as rears is definitely overkill... Sierra-1 NrT work exceptionally well as rears with Ribbon towers as fronts and you save a ton of $$$. That said, if you want RAAL ribbon surrounds, we are happy to accommodate you.

[Dark Ranger]

Interesting news here... :cool: Also, the other post (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?p=41782#post41782) is relevant here as well.


Exciting days ahead, folks! :D

[Mag_Neato]

Hmm......interesting bit of information.

Could the "Uber" upgrade be a customized RAAL tweeter with the appropriate crossover? I'm not sure this would be for me, at least from a cost perspective. If we're talking about a significant investment for this, say $500+, I will be looking in from the outside. I realize $500 is probably way too low for such an upgrade, but that would be stretching things budget-wise. The NrT upgrade was around $350'ish for both speakers when I did that, so I'd imagine this would probably be closer to $700 or more.

Still can't wait to find out!

[qwknuf6]

700.00 for a pair of raal tweets , plus a new crossover , 900.00 for an ugrade?????

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

Want to hear a sad story? I dreamed I visited the Ascend 'factory' which turned out to be in a really old shopping mall's basement, and it was HUGE, probably the size of four football fields. I was in the neighborhood and just walked in without an appointment and walked around. It was super dusty and had metal beams and scraps on tables and stuff which had nothing to do with speakers... I wanted to hear the towers but unfortunately none were functional; none had woofers, but an employee then offered to build me a tower with NrT tweeter so that I could hear it lol

Then Dave showed me his prototype Sierra tower. It of course had no drivers, just empty cabinet, but a really funky curved cabinet. In the end, it would have a RAAL tweeter, mid, two woofers, and a large (15 inch) bass woofer on the side with radiator, it was quite amazing... Oh!! And I remember he asked me how much I thought it was going to be and then he said 7500$, and I thought that was quite expensive but there would probably be a market for them. lol

Then there was one regular Sierra tower finally completed, but it was time for me to leave and join some friends but I couldn't really leave to because they had gone through so much trouble to build that one speaker so I could hear it... And so I politely listened to that one speaker, in the factory, on a super crappy chair sitting against a wall, and the environment was so bad I could barely hear anything from that one speaker, and then Dave wanted me to hear the RAAL to see if I could tell the difference, and so he was manually replacing the tweeter, and when it was finally done I had largely forgot how the NrT sounded and couldn't hear any difference... LOL Then I went out and met some old friend and things got even weirder but that's another story...

Oh well, note: This has nothing to do with reality (I'm sure the actual Ascend is exremely clean and all), simply the very strange dreams of a guy who has weird dreams ;)

[JustaSheep]

700.00 for a pair of raal tweets , plus a new crossover , 900.00 for an ugrade?????

Mark

I think this speaks more to the value of the Towers than to the pricey-ness of the Sierra 2's.

[GirgleMirt]

Hmm......interesting bit of information.

Could the "Uber" upgrade be a customized RAAL tweeter with the appropriate crossover? I'm not sure this would be for me, at least from a cost perspective. If we're talking about a significant investment for this, say $500+, I will be looking in from the outside. I realize $500 is probably way too low for such an upgrade, but that would be stretching things budget-wise. The NrT upgrade was around $350'ish for both speakers when I did that, so I'd imagine this would probably be closer to $700 or more.

Still can't wait to find out!

Same here... BUT, we both did the NrT upgrade... For those who didn't do an upgrade, might be more attractive. And we have to keep in mind that the RAAL is one of the best tweeters available at any price point, so you do get what you pay for.

FWIW, I even skipped the towers... Maybe for new buyers, if it's 700, so 900+700 for RAAL Bookshelves, or 2700 for RAAL towers I think it is, or 1900 for NrT towers, maybe towers with NrT & mid woofer make more sense...

Though as mentioned, if RAAL takes over more of the midrange, maybe the match with 1 sierra woofer works great and gives better performance than NrT + dedicated tower mid...

Hard decision. Was NrT really 350? If RAAL was 4-500ish, due to maybe custom/cheaper RAAL tweeter, I might consider it, and I say this somewhat reluctantly as I'm not really interested in upgrading but such price point might make give me no choice... But 700 or more, I think would be a quite limited # of people due to cost of upgrade. But who knows... I have no doubt that if Ascend is offering it, it makes sense as an upgrade and so it is worth it.

But for myself I'm not sure.. As I said, I think the NrT has great performance, and vs NeoCD3.0 ribbon tweeter, I think it more than held its own. But the Neo is not a RAAL... So I don't know, I somewhat feel that the RAAL fits better with the towers (mid + 2 bass woofers), and for the Sierra bookshelves, it might be too 'big' of an upgrade. In actuality, this probably makes no sense, as if RAAL improves highs/mids it doesn't matter if speaker cost 900 initially and upgrade is almost 100% of original price, but upgrading on 2000$ speaker for 700 (30% cost of speakers) seems more 'balanced'...

[Mag_Neato]

I think this speaks more to the value of the Towers than to the pricey-ness of the Sierra 2's.

Disclaimer: This is ONLY my $0.02 and has NOTHING to do with reality! Dave MAY be looking at a ribbon for the upgrade, but who's to say it is the same RAAL as the tower uses? As far as I know that tweeter would not even fit in the Sierra-1 cabinet. So, these are merely my wild-ass-guesses!

[Dark Ranger]

For what it's worth, Dave did not state explicitly about the upgrade being a RAAL, or for that matter the same 70-20XR used in the Towers/Horizon. In fact, he did not even spill the beans yet from my perspective.

What I gathered is that there is another ribbon-based speaker in the works. It could be the Sierra-1 upgrade, but it could also be a completely new speaker. In any case, I find it very interesting because it will be a ribbon-based speaker instead of a traditional dome tweeter.


@ GirgleMirt,

Love that dream. I can guess where you picked up the $7,500 (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?p=41784#post41784) figure. :D

[Alleric]

So...

If this a tweeter upgrade be... I'm willing to discuss some second hand NrT setups for L/C/R. I have to do my things more on a budget, and in a strategic fashion. :)

But from my bench here at Speculation Station, I would think that taking a design up a full release level (Sierra 1 to 2) would mean more than just yet another tweeter option. Another tweeter option would seem more like a flavoring, like NrT is now. Full on Sierra 2 seems to implicate a far more holistic modification.

[billy p]

Some very active minds at play....I'm loving all this conjecture....:D

Thanks gents, I needed a good chuckle...:)

On a more serious note, I know the ETA was slated ~1yr ...has that since changed?

Regards, Bill...:)

[davef]

Want to hear a sad story? I dreamed I visited the Ascend 'factory' which turned out to be in a really old shopping mall's basement, and it was HUGE, probably the size of four football fields. I was in the neighborhood and just walked in without an appointment and walked around. It was super dusty and had metal beams and scraps on tables and stuff which had nothing to do with speakers... I wanted to hear the towers but unfortunately none were functional; none had woofers, but an employee then offered to build me a tower with NrT tweeter so that I could hear it lol

Then Dave showed me his prototype Sierra tower. It of course had no drivers, just empty cabinet, but a really funky curved cabinet. In the end, it would have a RAAL tweeter, mid, two woofers, and a large (15 inch) bass woofer on the side with radiator, it was quite amazing... Oh!! And I remember he asked me how much I thought it was going to be and then he said 7500$, and I thought that was quite expensive but there would probably be a market for them. lol

Then there was one regular Sierra tower finally completed, but it was time for me to leave and join some friends but I couldn't really leave to because they had gone through so much trouble to build that one speaker so I could hear it... And so I politely listened to that one speaker, in the factory, on a super crappy chair sitting against a wall, and the environment was so bad I could barely hear anything from that one speaker, and then Dave wanted me to hear the RAAL to see if I could tell the difference, and so he was manually replacing the tweeter, and when it was finally done I had largely forgot how the NrT sounded and couldn't hear any difference... LOL Then I went out and met some old friend and things got even weirder but that's another story...

Oh well, note: This has nothing to do with reality (I'm sure the actual Ascend is exremely clean and all), simply the very strange dreams of a guy who has weird dreams ;)

Oh my... this is a really disturbing nightmare :eek: Scary stuff.... Was there weird background music playing too?

We are actually in the process of organizing our warehouse. Check out our new 20' high "Wall o'170 cabinets followed by our Wall o'340 cabinets (behind)

Funny thing about your dream is that we have been looking for a larger facility and your dream reminds me of one of the places we recently looked at :eek:

[Alleric]

Care to move out to southern Arizona? I'd love to come hang out. As an ineffective taunt: I do indeed own a smoker and make some pretty darn good brisket and shoulder. :)

[Dark Ranger]

Oh my! Look at all that Cheddar! :cool:

This means one thing, folks, and one thing only: we simply are not doing our part to empty the Ascend warehouse! :D

I will pledge to buy two rows wide by two rows deep of both 170s and 340s. Who's with me!? Besides, I've always wanted good sound in my kitchen...and bathroom...and closet...and dog house*!


*Having good sound in the dog house is essential, because one day we men will screw up and get kicked outside, unable to listen to our primary system indoors. By outfitting the dog house with Ascend quality, we'll be able to conquer the lonely nights unfazed. ;)

[JustaSheep]

*Having good sound in the dog house is essential, because one day we men will screw up and get kicked outside, unable to listen to our primary system indoors. By outfitting the dog house with Ascend quality, we'll be able to conquer the lonely nights unfazed. ;)

That's why they make Schiit and NAD and Sennheiser...and AKG...etc. ;)

[davef]

700.00 for a pair of raal tweets , plus a new crossover , 900.00 for an ugrade?????

Mark

FYI, we could not possibly offer a pair of our specialized RAAL 70-20XR with Amorphous core transformers for $700. The reason we are able to offer these for $350 each in the towers is that we recoup our cost on the NrT dome, which is 4-5 times the cost of the standard Sierra-1 dome.

If someone were to purchase the tower ribbon from us, the price would be $585 each. Sierra-1 with the tower ribbon tweeters would be in the range of $1800/pair. Also, to make matters worse, the dollar has fallen against the Euro which only makes the ribbons more expensive :(

[qwknuf6]

Dave

If you were to offer a RAAL tweeter upgrade for the Sierra 1 and if someone had already upgraded to the NRT dome tweeter ,would there be a credit for trading in the NRT tweeter and crossover?

Thanks

[GirgleMirt]

Oh my... this is a really disturbing nightmare :eek: Scary stuff.... Was there weird background music playing too?

We are actually in the process of organizing our warehouse. Check out our new 20' high "Wall o'170 cabinets followed by our Wall o'340 cabinets (behind)

Funny thing about your dream is that we have been looking for a larger facility and your dream reminds me of one of the places we recently looked at :eek:

About that pic: :eek: :D


We will have a ribbon speaker that perfectly compliments the Towers/Horizon.
...
Horizons as rears is definitely overkill... Sierra-1 NrT work exceptionally well as rears with Ribbon towers as fronts and you save a ton of $$$. That said, if you want RAAL ribbon surrounds, we are happy to accommodate you.


FYI, we could not possibly offer a pair of our specialized RAAL 70-20XR with Amorphous core transformers for $700. The reason we are able to offer these for $350 each in the towers is that we recoup our cost on the NrT dome, which is 4-5 times the cost of the standard Sierra-1 dome.

If someone were to purchase the tower ribbon from us, the price would be $585 each. Sierra-1 with the tower ribbon tweeters would be in the range of $1800/pair. Also, to make matters worse, the dollar has fallen against the Euro which only makes the ribbons more expensive :(

So the Sierra-1 NrT 'Next phase' is a Ribbon upgrade? RAAL does offer other Ribbon tweeters but they're all above 400$ a pop... So a non-RAAL ribbon? Hmmm!

[nzone]

Will this upcoming Sierra 2 Monitor integrate perfectly with the current Horizon?
The current Sierra 1 Center looks cripple (visually) somewhat when remove the grill.

[hemingrey66]

Hi Guys,

So sorry about the delay. I really wish I could post more details but nothing is 100% just yet. These are fully customized components for us and I am not comfortable posting public details until I have approved final samples and the parts are in production.

With regard to a timeline, I hope to be able to approve final samples within 2-months. From there I would estimate 3-4 months for production and delivery.

Great things coming... I promise :)


So we are pushing November, is there anything that can be shared with us about the "Sierra-2". My interest because, although I have plenty of room for the Towers, my space for the center "Sierra Horizon" is no more than my existing Sierra 1 center, so a possible upgrade of my existing center with the great mid range of the towers is of great interest. Maybe I'm just wishing here, but from what has been said it seems possible. ;)

[davef]

I apologize for the delay in responding to these questions.


Dave

If you were to offer a RAAL tweeter upgrade for the Sierra 1 and if someone had already upgraded to the NRT dome tweeter ,would there be a credit for trading in the NRT tweeter and crossover?

Thanks

Yes, I believe we will offer a trade-in price for those who have Sierra-1 NrT.


Will this upcoming Sierra 2 Monitor integrate perfectly with the current Horizon?

This is the plan -- although it won't have the bass response or the dynamic capabilities of the Horizon (simply due to physical constaints)


So we are pushing November, is there anything that can be shared with us about the "Sierra-2". My interest because, although I have plenty of room for the Towers, my space for the center "Sierra Horizon" is no more than my existing Sierra 1 center, so a possible upgrade of my existing center with the great mid range of the towers is of great interest. Maybe I'm just wishing here, but from what has been said it seems possible. ;)

I can share that is coming along quite nicely so far ;) I spent a good 3-4 hours listening to the proto Sierra-2 vs. the Sierra-1 and Sierra-2 vs. Sierra Ribbon Tower and so far I think we have managed to reach our goals. Midrange and high frequency performance is directly between the Sierra-1 and the Ribbon Towers (closer to the towers)

We are not there yet though, we are still trying to further optimize the fully custom components (our 4th time around) and I hope to have the final versions here within a few more weeks.

[petmotel]

I apologize for the delay in responding to these questions.



Yes, I believe we will offer a trade-in price for those who have Sierra-1 NrT.



This is the plan -- although it won't have the bass response or the dynamic capabilities of the Horizon (simply due to physical constaints)



I can share that is coming along quite nicely so far ;) I spent a good 3-4 hours listening to the proto Sierra-2 vs. the Sierra-1 and Sierra-2 vs. Sierra Ribbon Tower and so far I think we have managed to reach our goals. Midrange and high frequency performance is directly between the Sierra-1 and the Ribbon Towers (closer to the towers)

We are not there yet though, we are still trying to further optimize the fully custom components (our 4th time around) and I hope to have the final versions here within a few more weeks.

Any type of guesstimate as to the ballpark price of these new Sierras? I will likely be getting a pair, and would like them in a finish that matches my espresso satin front stage.

I am extremely happy with the NRTs as surrounds, but I need a system out in the shop, and have been way too spoiled by the sound quality of the Ascends to settle for less, even in the shop!

Man, I sure do wish you could share a few details concerning the component layout of these new speakers, the suspense is intense!

Jay

[Mag_Neato]

Thanks for the update, Dave! I'll take any new information about this you are willing to give out!

Glad to hear things are moving along and going well.

[Brannigan]

I think the burning question is this. If they cost the same as the base model towers, what is the advantage? Will they sound better than the base towers if you use them with a sub? The price difference between a sierra 2 and a tower with ribbons is obviously significant but if they're the same price as non ribbon towers which do you choose? I assume the base model tower would be the wise choice if you don't have or plan on getting a sub because of the full range sound with 2 woofers\dedicated mid, and the sierra 2 would have better highs and mids IF you use a high pass filter around 60 hz to take some of the load off of the sierra 2's woofer and let the sub handle the lowest frequencies. Am I in the ballpark? I'm very interested.

[qwknuf6]

Some only have room for bookshelf speakers

[Brannigan]

Some only have room for bookshelf speakers

What I'm wondering is if space constraints is the only reason.

[curtis]

I think the dedicated midrange driver on the Towers would offer more midrange detail.

[choirbass]

Towers really did used to be an option.. I've since rearranged my room from the avatar, and removed some unnecessary furniture so I would again have more space.. but the towers still aren't an option (10'x10'x8'). You could say bookshelves are more of a 'godsend'. There's also the issue for those of WAF, towers may simply not be an option at all. Some simply like more the looks and convenience of bookshelves. Acoustically the differences are more obvious, but tradeoffs do still have to be made at times.

[petmotel]

I think the dedicated midrange driver on the Towers would offer more midrange detail.

Absolutely true. I've considered all of the information that has been put forth so far, and I believe the upgraded Sierras will not use a ribbon tweeter.

In order to get the midrange more in line with the capabilites of the Towers, either the speaker would have to sacrifice some bass capability, (lighter, faster cone assembly) or the high range driver would have to be able to operate significantly lower in frequency. Dave already commented that he wasn't willing to sacrifice bass performance.

Within the confines of a current Sierra cabinet, that would leave the possibility of either a coaxial tweeter/upper mid driver combination, or some type of wideband planar driver. I'm going to speculate on the latter. Whether or not I have the slightest clue, it's sure fun to try and figure these puzzles out.

The current NRT is already so good, it's hard for me to imagine a two way handily eclipsing it's performance. But if Dave says it has been done, I know it's like money in the bank.

Jay

[petmotel]

[QUOTE=davef;41783]We will have a ribbon speaker that perfectly compliments the Towers/Horizon.

Somewhere along the line I missed this little tidbit of info. Should have read through the entire thread BEFORE speculating. So a ribbon tweet it shall be!

I'm quite interested in seeing what Dave is working on, but glad that he is a perfectionist, and not willing to compromise design for release dates.

Jay

[Brannigan]

I'm getting more psyched about this by the day. The sierras with a sub already sound pretty much perfect so I can't begin to imagine what an improved version will be like. Can anyone confirm that the RAAL tweeters have a wide dispersion and don't have the sweet spot limitation of other ribbons? Also, any chance you can throw us a bone on the approximate price of upgrading from the non nrt sierras Mr. davef?

[Dark Ranger]

Thanks for the update, Dave! :D

I am very much looking forward to future months. Glad to hear you're nearing approval of the final samples and approaching the end of evaluation. A big weight off your shoulders, no doubt.

Good things coming soon, folks!

Oh, I went ahead and added the Ascend 24/7 hotline to my speed dial list. That way, I can have the best chance of getting the first production parts!! Oh yeah!* :cool:





*Just kidding. :p Although I do plan to call and order ASAP once Dave gives the word.

[choirbass]

I really can only imagine how they sound, but because they aren't dome tweeters, their dispersion won't be able to be as wide. For accuracy, neutrality, range, durability, and what other qualities there are, RAAL is the way to go, IMO. From reading other forums this type of ribbon is more considered the 'holy-grail', tho relatively expensive it is a justified choice nonetheless.

[curtis]

I really can only imagine how they sound, but because they aren't dome tweeters, their dispersion won't be able to be as wide. For accuracy, neutrality, range, durability, and what other qualities there are, RAAL is the way to go, IMO. From reading other forums this type of ribbon is more considered the 'holy-grail', tho relatively expensive it is a justified choice nonetheless.
I have you seen Dave's measurements of the 70-20XR? The horizontal off-axis measurements are exceptional.

[choirbass]

I have you seen Dave's measurements of the 70-20XR? The horizontal off-axis measurements are exceptional.

Ah, sorry, had forgotten. :o

I guess I was just more misremembering comments made awhile back about the NrT's being more ideal for movies, given that.

[davef]

I really can only imagine how they sound, but because they aren't dome tweeters, their dispersion won't be able to be as wide. For accuracy, neutrality, range, durability, and what other qualities there are, RAAL is the way to go, IMO. From reading other forums this type of ribbon is more considered the 'holy-grail', tho relatively expensive it is a justified choice nonetheless.

Just a minor correction :)

The horizontal dispersion of the RAAL tweeters is exceptional. Vertical dispersion is limited but this is not a negative as it reduces high frequency floor and ceiling reflections and is actually a requirement for some THX standards.

[davef]

Also, any chance you can throw us a bone on the approximate price of upgrading from the non nrt sierras Mr. davef?

I apologize in advance, it is still going to be some time before any prices have been confirmed. First comes finalizing the components -- then comes pricing the components with the manufacturers and determining at what volumes we need to purchase to get the best costs. If the latest prototypes work out, I might have a pricing an estimate in 1-2 months...

[Brannigan]

That's understandable not wanting to guess about price and end up being wrong. As far as the vertical/horizontal dispersion thing, I just wanted to know that I don't have to sit in a certain spot for it to sound good. I mean, I do have a favorite spot on the couch but if for whatever reason I have guests watching a movie in other seats it sounds like they'll hear everything fine. As for dispersion, how limited is it? My speakers are at head level when sitting down but I'm not always sitting on the couch. Will they still sound right when standing up from say...4 feet away if my head is 2 feet higher or lower than the speakers? Lets pretend I actually do situps and lift weights more than once every thousand years.

[curtis]

That's understandable not wanting to guess about price and end up being wrong. As far as the vertical/horizontal dispersion thing, I just wanted to know that I don't have to sit in a certain spot for it to sound good. I mean, I do have a favorite spot on the couch but if for whatever reason I have guests watching a movie in other seats it sounds like they'll hear everything fine. As for dispersion, how limited is it? My speakers are at head level when sitting down but I'm not always sitting on the couch. Will they still sound right when standing up from say...4 feet away if my head is 2 feet higher or lower than the speakers? Lets pretend I actually do situps and lift weights more than once every thousand years.
From my hearing the Sierra Towers with the RAAL, I don't think you are going to have any issue. No speaker is going to sound the "same" if you are 4 feet from them, and 2 feet above them, when compared to sitting in your sweet spot.

[curtis]

pssst...I got to hear a single prototype today for a few songs next to a standard Sierra-1. Lusher mids, more detail throughout, and doesn't extend quite as deep. All subject to change as Dave has not finalized anything.

I can't tell you the pricing or timing...Dave still doesn't know. It is a ways away.
If I told you anything about components, I would have to kill you right afterwards, so don't ask. :)

[Brannigan]

Sounds awesome but I couldn't wait anymore and ordered some RAAL towers instead. I SHALL WANT FOR NOTHING MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH :cool:

[avsnoob10]

pssst...I got to hear a single prototype today for a few songs next to a standard Sierra-1. Lusher mids, more detail throughout, and doesn't extend quite as deep. All subject to change as Dave has not finalized anything.

I can't tell you the pricing or timing...Dave still doesn't know. It is a ways away.
If I told you anything about components, I would have to kill you right afterwards, so don't ask. :)

Curtis: I hope the drivers on Sierra-2 doesn't affect Towers?? I waited long enough to order my Towers if not I am hoping that Dave will offer an upgrade for existing Towers.

[curtis]

Curtis: I hope the drivers on Sierra-2 doesn't affect Towers?? I waited long enough to order my Towers if not I am hoping that Dave will offer an upgrade for existing Towers.
I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Dark Ranger]

pssst...I got to hear a single prototype today for a few songs next to a standard Sierra-1. Lusher mids, more detail throughout, and doesn't extend quite as deep. All subject to change as Dave has not finalized anything.

I can't tell you the pricing or timing...Dave still doesn't know. It is a ways away.
If I told you anything about components, I would have to kill you right afterwards, so don't ask. :)

What?! Are you kidding me?! You visited Ascend's Top Secret (and highly classified) Skunkworks facility and they let you walk out without using the Men In Black Neuralyzer on you? OK, Brian is seriously slacking! That was his one job to do at Ascend--protect company secrets! (BTW, the whole "helping customers" thing is just his cover story.) ;)

Since you've now supplied us with valuable information about the upcoming Sierra-2 (and lived to tell about it), I'm guessing that you were intentionally set loose. Check your wrist the next time you're in the shower for a surgically-implanted tracking device.

OK, fun and games aside, thanks for the update on the new speakers. I'm thrilled that you heard that much difference between it and the standard Sierra-1. The difference between the Sierra-2 and the Sierra-1 NrT is probably less, but still noticeable. Truth be told, ever since Dave posted those pics of the "custom LCRs," I've been trying to fit them into my room and budget. But I'd go the RAAL route on those. Since I'm just at the start of installing room treatments, that takes first priority. The Sierra-2 upgrade remains firmly on the table as a cost-effective way (OK, that's debatable :p) to improve on a stellar design. I know it's too soon for details, but I am somewhat concerned about the slightly reduced low-frequency extension. I run a two-channel setup in full-range mode, and with Q-Plug B, the low end is quite satisfying. That said, low frequency extension can always be solved with my Rythmik if needed, and I'd much rather have improved mid and high frequency reproduction. No worries, I'm not going to fret quite yet, just thinking out loud. :)

I am very much looking forward to the next several months! For what it's worth, I am ready to die for classified knowledge and exclusive details of the Sierra-2. I'll even supply the sword. :D

[RicardoJoa]

are we going to get this product out before new year?

[Dark Ranger]

Ricardo,

Not likely. There is still more work to do before the design is finalized and prices are set. Based on the last tentative estimates, we still have a few months to go before the Sierra-2 heads for production.

Personally, I don't expect to see these available until March the earliest. There's much yet to be done. :)

[curtis]

Ricardo,

Not likely. There is still more work to do before the design is finalized and prices are set. Based on the last tentative estimates, we still have a few months to go before the Sierra-2 heads for production.

Personally, I don't expect to see these available until March the earliest. There's much yet to be done. :)
Correct...just about every aspect of the speaker I saw/heard was not the final version. Dave is still working with vendors on minor tweaks on components.

It is amazing what Dave's suppliers/vendors will do for him to make things "perfect". There is such a high level of respect between Ascend and its suppliers....engineer to engineer working on optimizing everything. Not just picking drivers off the shelf and developing a crossover to work with them...so much deeper than that. I learned some very interesting things.

[RicardoJoa]

Correct...just about every aspect of the speaker I saw/heard was not the final version. Dave is still working with vendors on minor tweaks on components.

It is amazing what Dave's suppliers/vendors will do for him to make things "perfect". There is such a high level of respect between Ascend and its suppliers....engineer to engineer working on optimizing everything. Not just picking drivers off the shelf and developing a crossover to work with them...so much deeper than that. I learned some very interesting things.

Cool.
The sierra2 is supposed to be part of the upgrade for the sierra1 owners as well right?

[natetg57]

Cool.
The sierra2 is supposed to be part of the upgrade for the sierra1 owners as well right?
Yes

[curtis]

Cool.
The sierra2 is supposed to be part of the upgrade for the sierra1 owners as well right?


Yes
Correct. A Sierra-1/NrT can be upgraded to a Sierra-2.

[Mag_Neato]

Curtis, you know that I'm jealous, right?:p :D

Hopefully Dave will add some of his own comments and throw us some more morsels to chew on!;)

[GirgleMirt]

The lack of prototype speaker pr0n of this thread is disconcerting! :p

Ok so what do we know, a RAAL Sierra bookshelf? It if it's an upgrade, it must fit in the hole, so it's smaller than the current RAAL in the tower, so similar to this (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ribbon-tweeters/raal-70-10d-raal-ribbon-tweeter-with-optional-amorphous-core/) (maybe vertical similar or slightly bigger thanvisible ribbon area?) with a round flange?


It is amazing what Dave's suppliers/vendors will do for him to make things "perfect". There is such a high level of respect between Ascend and its suppliers....engineer to engineer working on optimizing everything. Not just picking drivers off the shelf and developing a crossover to work with them...so much deeper than that. I learned some very interesting things.
like what?

[curtis]

like what?
That Ascend is special. :)

[Dark Ranger]

I saw this (http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonicaudio/philpages/monitors.html) recently and it made me think of the upcoming Sierra-2. Well, only because it is a ribbon-based two-way monitor. :p

One of these days, Dave is gonna post in this thread to say, "It's here! It's what you've been waiting for! I am proud to unveil our new Sierra-2 Reference Monitor, a high-efficiency, bi-polar, hybrid coaxial/horn-loaded speaker weighing 190 pounds. This is an easy DIY upgrade that requires an arc welder, three sets of Craftsman tool sets, and about 120 hours of labor. Best of all, this new and radical design can be yours for only $3,999!"

:D

[JustaSheep]

I saw this (http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonicaudio/philpages/monitors.html) recently and it made me think of the upcoming Sierra-2. Well, only because it is a ribbon-based two-way monitor. :p



All I can think after seeing that is this:

"One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?"

[Dark Ranger]

Haha! :D

OK, it looks like the emoticons are working again. N/M.

[Mag_Neato]

Interesting. Obviously a "lesser" ribbon tweeter than the almighty RAAL. You can be fairly certain that those drivers are "Off the shelf" and that the crossover has been designed to get them to play nicely together.

This just makes me more appreciative of the lengths Dave goes with customized drivers so that the crossover is relieved of the chore of having to step in to tame them.

[bkdc]

Why does it have to be 'upgradable'? I'd rather have the mighty RAAL designed into a new bookshelf speaker so that it fits nice and tidy.

[Mag_Neato]

Why does it have to be 'upgradable'? I'd rather have the mighty RAAL designed into a new bookshelf speaker so that it fits nice and tidy.

If, indeed, the Sierra-2 will have a RAAL (or other ribbin tweeter) you will be able to purchase it "New" rather than upgrading from a Sierra-1/NrT. The fact that Dave is taking the lengths needed to turn a Sierra-1/NrT into a -2 benefits us Sierra-1/NrT owners who desire an upgrade path without having to pay the full cost of a -2, or having to sell off our Sierra-1/NrTs in order to afford the -2. Not all of us (me!) can readily afford that. Upgrading at maybe 1/3-1/2 the cost is much more doable. Plus, I'd think using the same cabinets for both will save production costs too.

[Stump909]

Shameless bump.

After reading the last 15 or so pages, I need more! I'm guessing not much has been accomplished over the holidays?

[Dark Ranger]

Well, 15 pages is great, but you missed 4 pages! :D

From past experience, Dave is always working on something even though it appears like everything is quiet. For many reasons, he'll also wait to announce something or provide additional info until he feels comfortable with its certainty. I can't fault that, as it prevents the "over promise, under deliver" issue. Over the past several months, much of the time was spent evaluating components (and the endless revisions). After all, Dave's a perfectionist. :)

Yes, 2013 will be a great year. I've been following this thread since its inception. I can't wait to finally see the fruits of his labor and install a pair into my Sierra-1s.

That said, hopefully he and his family actually did get to enjoy the holiday.


It will be here soon, folks, the moment we've been waiting for. :D

[Stump909]

Well, 15 pages is great, but you missed 4 pages! :D

From past experience, Dave is always working on something even though it appears like everything is quiet. For many reasons, he'll also wait to announce something or provide additional info until he feels comfortable with its certainty. I can't fault that, as it prevents the "over promise, under deliver" issue. Over the past several months, much of the time was spent evaluating components (and the endless revisions). After all, Dave's a perfectionist. :)

Yes, 2013 will be a great year. I've been following this thread since its inception. I can't wait to finally see the fruits of his labor and install a pair into my Sierra-1s.

That said, hopefully he and his family actually did get to enjoy the holiday.


It will be here soon, folks, the moment we've been waiting for. :D

I'm excited, however, there's one thing bothering me. During my catch-up, I couldn't tell if the Sierra-2 was a Sierra-1 replacement (like the SE's) or a new line altogether. I'm currently eyeing some Sierra-1's, and I understand they'll be upgradable to 2, but I want to do this in the most cost efficient manner :D.

[Dark Ranger]

Have no fear! ;)

Based on the information we have, the Sierra-1s aren't going anywhere. See these posts from The Man himself (bold emphasis mine):



Hey everyone...

A quick update to this thread...

While I can not post details just yet, we have made a rather significant investment into the future of the Sierra-1 / Sierra-1 NrT.

Combining our vast experience, our decades old worldwide vendor relationships and our resources - crucial attributes that few, if any, other ID companies can match - work has now begun on something quite special...

Current and future Sierra-1 owners will be very, very happy :D :D



If all goes as planned, this will be our most significant upgrade yet. The Sierra-1 and Sierra-1 NrT will not change -- this will be an optional "uber performance" upgrade, available as factory new or DIY. I am extremely excited about this and have invested a significant sum to make this happen for you guys :)

This version will firmly place the Sierra-1 into the ranks of the best bookshelf speaker at any price anywhere... Our customers asked for this and we are going to deliver BIG TIME!


So, buy the Sierra-1s now, and then purchase the upgrade DIY kit next year. You'll be able to break up the investment cost rather than buying a brand new Sierra-2.

EDIT: I am counting down the days!! :D

[Stump909]

Have no fear! ;)

Based on the information we have, the Sierra-1s aren't going anywhere. See these posts from The Man himself (bold emphasis mine):








So, buy the Sierra-1s now, and then purchase the upgrade DIY kit next year. You'll be able to break up the investment cost rather than buying a brand new Sierra-2.

EDIT: I am counting down the days!! :D

Haha that's what I would prefer, but I'm afraid I'll end up spending more on this by making it an upgrade project. I think I'll have to see what the pricing ends up being...

That piano blk pair however is calling me....

[Dark Ranger]

That piano blk pair however is calling me....

They are beautiful. I should know. :p

To be serious for a moment, when the Sierra-1s first debuted, customers now had several high-quality finish options without going custom. Before that, some folks probably bypassed the Ascends because of their lackluster finish. I've even heard some folks call them (170s, 200s, 340s) ugly. While these models might not win beauty contests, their sound quality more than makes up for it. I actually like the understated looks, but that's me.

With the Sierra-1s (and Towers/Horizon), Ascend can offer loudspeakers that look as good as they sound. When I bought my Sierra-1s last year, I absolutely fell in love with the Piano Black. Before that, I had a set of Yamahas with PB finish, but the Sierra-1s took it to a whole 'nother level.

Like I said, they're beautiful. :)

[Mag_Neato]

Looks like the forum has been updated. Since nobody has posted yet I will put this post up as a test (and a little bump!)

[davef]

Looks like the forum has been updated. Since nobody has posted yet I will put this post up as a test (and a little bump!)

Still a work in progress but we are getting there :) Yes, we have updated the forum software to the latest version of Vbulletin. Many new features will be slowly showing up, including (at last) full mobile support.

[Mag_Neato]

Still a work in progress but we are getting there :) Yes, we have updated the forum software to the latest version of Vbulletin. Many new features will be slowly showing up, including (at last) full mobile support.

Dave, when can we expect the mobile support?

[davef]

Dave, when can we expect the mobile support?

Already looks great on my iPhone in the forum's native built-in mobile format. Thoughts?

[Mag_Neato]

Already looks great on my iPhone in the forum's native built-in mobile format. Thoughts?

My bad! I was getting directed to the full site. Finally figured out how to change to the mobile version. Looks good to me!

[Pianist718]

Still a work in progress but we are getting there :) Yes, we have updated the forum software to the latest version of Vbulletin. Many new features will be slowly showing up, including (at last) full mobile support.

Dave .... so big of an improvement that one should avoid receiver upgrade and spend the cash on Siera-1NRT next step upgrade? :-)

[Dark Ranger]

Dave .... so big of an improvement that one should avoid receiver upgrade and spend the cash on Siera-1NRT next step upgrade? :-)

I think that is a decision only you can make. :)

Speaking of receivers, did you ever decide on a winner in your receiver shootout last October? There was an Onkyo, a Denon, and a Yamaha A2010. Your sig still shows the v465, so I'm assuming you sent all three of those back... :confused:

[Pianist718]

I think that is a decision only you can make. :)

Speaking of receivers, did you ever decide on a winner in your receiver shootout last October? There was an Onkyo, a Denon, and a Yamaha A2010. Your sig still shows the v465, so I'm assuming you sent all three of those back... :confused:


Wow, Dark Ranger ... good memory. :-)

I only ordered Onkyo and Denon ... Yamaha RX-A2010 was already discontinued in Crutchfield, so unfortunately I still have the "what if thoughts" about Yamaha.

I was too lazy to read both Denon and Onkyo manuals and really get to know the receivers before sending them back. I was looking for a quick fix.

I noticed that for Movies ... Denon was good, BUT regular TV programming that I watch 80% of the time was a bit dimmed down. As if EQ (even though i turned it off at some point) was making the sound not as active.

Anyway .... taking into consideration the fact that I had to learn this massive unit, the fact that from the start sound did not WOW me and $1,500 price tag ... I sent it all back.

However ......... with some help from other forums, I found the options on my current receiver like D.Range and DRC .... after adjusting them .... i am happy with my sound.

A friend of my still hints that what he heard from Denon 4311 is better BUT .... I can bet that if he didn't know what receiver I had plugged, he'd never know the difference.

:-)

I do still think about Yamaha. Someone is offering me right now Yamaha RXV3900 for just $699. I am thinking :-)

[Dark Ranger]

Hi Pianist,

Thanks for the info. I'm happy you found a pleasing sound with your current receiver. Modern AVRs have so many features that it can be an exercise in patience to find them all. There's always something "better" out there, but sometimes "just right" can be obtained with what you have. :)

Good luck on your continuing journey for Good Sound. It never really ends, but owning Ascend speakers can solve that part of the equation. It certainly does for me! :cool:

[hearing specialist]

Fry's Electronics has some smokin' deals on Yamaha receivers, crazy awesome! I saw and should have jumped on a Aventage $799 for $200 in store pick up only. They are always having crazy discounted prices but you just need to watch their site. I would pay online and drive 3 hrs to pick it up down in Orange County. I had my eye on any of the Aventage units that offered the multi point/RSC YPAO affordably.

[Sam1000]

which model are you talking about? I don't see anyting on their site right now :-(

[Stump909]

Fry's Electronics has some smokin' deals on Yamaha receivers, crazy awesome! I saw and should have jumped on a Aventage $799 for $200 in store pick up only. They are always having crazy discounted prices but you just need to watch their site. I would pay online and drive 3 hrs to pick it up down in Orange County. I had my eye on any of the Aventage units that offered the multi point/RSC YPAO affordably.

How does that compare to Audyssey XT? Since I can't acoustically treat my listening space, this is quite important to me. Thanks!

[hearing specialist]

It was the 810BL and it was a smokin deal! Should have purchased and i'm kicking myself for not. They run crazy specials here and there and this morning I see the 810BL for $498 and is $849 on Yamaha's site currently. You will just need to watch daily as the prices are always changing. Sierra 1's would be such a great combination with Yamaha's warm and full sound.

[Dark Ranger]

For some reason, I am very excited today (more than usual) about the upcoming improvements for the Sierra-1/NrT. :D

The anticipation is driving me nuts because I know great things await. Perhaps the last spring rains will bring us news of project success, along with plans for the first production run before the summer sun rises for the first time. Oh, to be a fly on the wall! :)

[Erik]

I agree, would love some time lines. My system budget for 2013 hinges on the Sierra-2.... I would really love a new DAC, but since hearing about the upgraded Sierra's everything changed

[Mag_Neato]

Dave's initial realistic estimates on the Sierra-2 put it somewhere near early Spring, perhaps late March-April? Would be nice to hear an update even if to tell us he's not even close. But I have my patience-ometer set to Spring!:cool:

[Dark Ranger]

I wonder how many component revisions he's gone through trying to get the performance "just right"... :eek: I just love hearing the technical details of his projects, although I get the feeling that it can be as challenging as it is rewarding. An incredibly demanding job, no doubt. But boy oh boy, the end results are wonderful.

I had a friend over recently for a movie. She remarked how incredible my sound system was and gave me one of the biggest complements, "there's no need to go to the movie theater anymore!" And she's absolutely right. Dave and his loudspeakers have brought me a little piece of heaven, and I like to visit that heaven every chance I get. :D


Dear Ascend,

I will sweep the floors, take out the trash, run errands, and dance on my head like a monkey for a chance to hear the Sierra-2 prototypes. Maybe I can find Curtis and do the Vulcan Mind Meld to see what it was like. :p

[rmac]

Yes count me in on the anticipation. I have three Sierra-1 NrT's that sound great, hard to believe of them sounding better.

[curtis]

I wonder how many component revisions he's gone through trying to get the performance "just right"... :eek:
A lot! :) Also remember, depending on the tweak/change, it could take weeks for the vendor to make the change and the part to reach Dave's hands.

If I remember correctly, the original Sierra-1 was in development for 4+ years.

From the prototype I heard, I think it will be worth the wait.

[logicology]

Already looks great on my iPhone in the forum's native built-in mobile format. Thoughts?

Looks good on my Android. But I would still love if you added TapaTalk support so I can browse the ascend forum right next to AVS and other forums from a native app on my phone. All you need to do is download and install a little plugin. ;)

Check it out Dave, it's a much better mobile experience than using the web browser. And it's free to you & the users...

http://www.tapatalk.com/activate_tapatalk.php?plugin=vbulletin

[Mag_Neato]

Looks good on my Android. But I would still love if you added TapaTalk support so I can browse the ascend forum right next to AVS and other forums from a native app on my phone. All you need to do is download and install a little plugin. ;)

Check it out Dave, it's a much better mobile experience than using the web browser. And it's free to you & the users...

http://www.tapatalk.com/activate_tapatalk.php?plugin=vbulletin

I have to agree here. I use Tapatalk for AVS and find it easier to navigate and has a superior layout.

[arkiedan]

So I've been hiding in the bushes, enjoying reading and re-reading all the speculation regarding the Sierra 2s. I own 3 original Sierra 1s across the front and didn't go for the NrT upgrade in hopes I could afford the towers a little down the road. Well, that didn't happen so I've been watching the progress of the Sierra 2 with great interest.

I'm assuming the plan is still for a DIY upgrade to the Sierra cabinet to some sort of ribbon tweeter, along with a highly modified crossover, as Dave teased quite a while back. If that's the case I'll be down for the upgrade parts.

The truth is, I sold my old AR9 4-way towers, circa 1982, a couple years ago, in order to afford the Sierra 1s. Since then, while I love the Sierras, I've missed the massive soundstage and wonderful midrange of those old ARs (they were, and are, true classics). Mostly they lacked the crystalline highs of more modern speakers. The Sierra 1s made up for some of their shortcomings and are certainly smaller (the ARs weighed over 100# each).

So now I'm waiting impatiently for Dave to announce where he's going with the new Sierra and hoping he's not changed the plan to upgrade Sierra 1s. While I passed on the NrT a couple years ago I'll jump on this one (if it comes in around $600).

[SGCSG1]

I think the burning question is this. If they cost the same as the base model towers, what is the advantage? Will they sound better than the base towers if you use them with a sub? The price difference between a sierra 2 and a tower with ribbons is obviously significant but if they're the same price as non ribbon towers which do you choose? I assume the base model tower would be the wise choice if you don't have or plan on getting a sub because of the full range sound with 2 woofers\dedicated mid, and the sierra 2 would have better highs and mids IF you use a high pass filter around 60 hz to take some of the load off of the sierra 2's woofer and let the sub handle the lowest frequencies. Am I in the ballpark? I'm very interested.

Towers vs Monitors is a debate for the ages. Sort of like tubes vs solid state. This is not something that will be decided in our lifetimes.

Some people just prefer the sound of a monitor.

[Dark Ranger]

In my case, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Towers vs Monitors debate. It has everything to do with the fact I cannot fit a set of Towers into my listening room.

Believe me, I would prefer a set of Ascend's Sierra Towers without a moment's hesitation. I really tried to find a way to fit them, but ended up with compromises I couldn't live it. Perhaps one day when I have a bigger room. For now, bookshelf speakers are all I can fit.

If the Sierra-2 can give me more of the Tower goodness, I'm all in! :)

[SGCSG1]

I just read this entire thread and am definitely in the target market for the Sierra-2!

I hope we can get satin finishes instead of the high gloss. High gloss is like a pair of Magnepans - exciting at first, but you do get tired of it.

I'm moving into a new house the first week in April and it has a perfect HT room for three Sierra-2's.

I'll be checking this forum every week from now on for more news.....

[aenthusiast]

Been lurking here for several weeks now. I currently don't own any Sierras but for me it will be a question of price point to determine which version to go with.. I would love a pair of Sierra 2's cause it sounds like it's going to be a phenomenal speaker - waiting to hear on that.


I hope we can get satin finishes instead of the high gloss.


I would like to see satin or even matte finishes. Also, anyone else interested to see a a version in high gloss piano white? Just curious, It's probably easy to say but logistically there much more involved to actually produce..

Currently I'm debating on amplification and created a thread here if anyone is interested:
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?5283-On-Amplification-with-Sierra-speakers-Your-two-cents&p=43085#post43085

Looking forward to news in the coming weeks/months. Thanks to Dave and the people at Ascend for all your hard work and dedication.

Nate

Edit : Fixed the quote -I don't tire of a gloss finish but I feel like satin and matte finishes are currently more in style for a natural "wood".

[davef]

Hi Guys,

My sincerest apologies for being so out of touch for the last few months. It has been a whirlwind of activity here since November and while I expected a slow down in January, it hasn’t happened. To be perfectly honest, we have been hit with a sales volume that has far exceeded our expectations and has stressed our capabilities to the max, which thus forced me to put the Sierra-2 on hold until we caught up with everything.

This isn’t a bad thing of course, but it is not my original intentions for Ascend or for me as I never wanted to spend my time, all of my time, dealing with managing a small business. Between daily production, in-house demos, and technical emails – I quickly found myself without a spare minute for the Sierra-2. I think most companies would love this type of volume, but I have been there before and my passion, more so my desire to share my passion, was being squashed and let my just say that I was not a happy camper and drastic changes were needed.

I am pleased to say that we have made several considerable internal changes here at Ascend. We have added 2 additional employees, have now completed leasing another facility behind our current unit which will be used for both engineering and additional warehousing, and we have also doubled the size of our production line while completely re-organizing the warehouse. I have made a sizeable investment back into Ascend so that we can better support higher sales volumes and more importantly, free more of my time for engineering.

Having said that, the Sierra-2 is progressing nicely. I had a slight setback with the last set of prototype components as there was a slight error (not sure if it was my fault or theirs) but I expect the next batch of prototypes to be perfect and “final”. From there it is just a matter of optimizing the existing Sierra-2 crossover to accommodate the changes and then the components head into production.

I know everyone would like a firm time line and estimated prices, but I don’t want to provide information that is not accurate. Without question, it will happen this year and more than likely, by the end of June. Yes, Sierra-1, Sierra-1 NrT will be user upgradeable to the Sierra-2 – and while this complicates matters, this plan will not change. In addition, the Sierra-2 will not replace the Sierra-1 or Sierra-1 NrT, it will be an additional product in our lineup. The Sierra-2 will indeed use the same cabinet as the Sierra-1.

Thanks so much for all of the support and for your patience with us!!!

[Mag_Neato]

Thanks for the update, Dave!

Congrats on the boom in business!! We know that any delays with the Sierra-2 will result in a complete, ready for prime-time product in the end. I can appreciate the R&D time, prototype component evaluation, etc. that it takes.

Glad to hear the Sierra Towers/Horizon have become so successful.

[ats_phd]

Congratulations Dave!.

Its great to hear that you are neck deep fulfilling orders, which just proves how good your products are, especially the tower and horizon.

Boy, am I glad to hear that you re-organized and are back to doing what you to best, designing new speakers. :o

I am happy to have bought your products, where your new products are just upgradable from the old ones. Doesn't see that happening often in the industry or anywhere!. Future proof!

Aravind

[Dark Ranger]

Muchas gracias, Dave!

I am thrilled to hear the business is doing so well, especially with all the economic challenges present in our world. Since you don't advertise, it also indicates how much "word of mouth" really counts. Customers are satisfied overall and talk about their experience in a positive way. That's right, sir, you've become a victim of your own success! :D

Thanks for the update on the Sierra-2. I have reset my Patience-O-Meter to June-ish. :p I am so excited to see this project coming to fruition and I know you want to share it with us even more than we want to have it (because you know all about it). :cool:

I'll be here, ready and waiting to get my grubby little paws on the newest, shiny thing from Ascend!

[SGCSG1]

Is it too early to spill the beans on what a Sierra-2 is? I'm thinking a Sierra-1 with a ribbon (a less expensive one than the RAAL used in the towers) instead of the NRT.

Is that it?

Congrats on the booming business, very exciting.

[Brannigan]

I'm almost a little bummed that I jumped straight to the towers with raal instead of "leveling up" gradually with the sierra 2 in the middle so I could explore the differences between them all. Who knows, maybe I'll want surround sound one day and use sierra 2's for the rears. They would be perfect.

[Dark Ranger]

Is it too early to spill the beans on what a Sierra-2 is? I'm thinking a Sierra-1 with a ribbon (a less expensive one than the RAAL used in the towers) instead of the NRT.

Is that it?

From what we know, yes, that is it. The Sierra-2 will have a ribbon tweeter (and modified/optimized crossover) so that mid- and high-frequency performance is somewhere between the Sierra-1 and the RAAL-equipped Sierra Tower, but closer to the ribbon Towers.

This could position the Sierra-2 as one of the finest two-way monitors available. It also allows those who cannot fit (or afford) the Sierra Towers in their listening space to have a taste of the glorious mid-range and high-frequency performance offered by the Towers.

If there's one thing I've learned about Ascend, it's that they don't offer minor "incremental" upgrades. It's more like leaps and bounds. I'm stoked for what's in store for us Sierra-1 owners. The fact this upgrade is also designed as DIY is even better! :)



I'm almost a little bummed that I jumped straight to the towers with raal instead of "leveling up" gradually with the sierra 2 in the middle so I could explore the differences between them all. Who knows, maybe I'll want surround sound one day and use sierra 2's for the rears. They would be perfect.

Almost bummed? You've got the mostest bestest RAAL Towers, buddy! :D

OK, I do get where you're coming from, but you would end up spending more in the long run with the ladder upgrade approach. Sierra-2s for rears would be quite stellar and I'm sure Dave wouldn't mind one bit if you bought a pair. :p

[SGCSG1]

So if the Sierra-1 NRT is about $1150 and the NRT towers are $2k, maybe the Sierra-2 will be... $1575 a pair?

That's just a guess of course (the difference between the towers & 1's / 2 and added to the -1 NRT price).

[Dark Ranger]

Yeah, there has been no official mention of prices because the components are not yet finalized. This is completely understandable.

*redacted*

I've decided to remove the rest of my post. While I made it clear that I was just speculating, I kept getting the feeling that it should be removed. That info served no real purpose, and since it was just my guesswork on the price, nothing of value was lost.

[JustABrah]

NrT are an awesome tweeter and a big step up from the tweeter in the Sierra-1, how much of a step up is this next one? NrT tweeter is pretty awesome and doesn't seem to lack anything, imho, oh and the NrT black on the black Sierra-1 looks sooo badass. I also kinda think there is more to this update than just a tweeter for it to be a Sierra-2, I'm thinking there's a new woofer?

[SGCSG1]

NrT are an awesome tweeter and a big step up from the tweeter in the Sierra-1, how much of a step up is this next one? NrT tweeter is pretty awesome and doesn't seem to lack anything, imho, oh and the NrT black on the black Sierra-1 looks sooo badass. I also kinda think there is more to this update than just a tweeter for it to be a Sierra-2, I'm thinking there's a new woofer?

The NRT upgrade (and IMHO it was a considerable upgrade) was tweeter and a new crossover.

Unless I'm very much mistaken the -2 upgrade will be a ribbon tweeter and a new crossover.

I suspect the jump from NRT to Ribbon will be much greater than the Stock-tweeter to NRT.

[petmotel]

Hi Guys,

My sincerest apologies for being so out of touch for the last few months. It has been a whirlwind of activity here since November and while I expected a slow down in January, it hasn’t happened. To be perfectly honest, we have been hit with a sales volume that has far exceeded our expectations and has stressed our capabilities to the max, which thus forced me to put the Sierra-2 on hold until we caught up with everything.

This isn’t a bad thing of course, but it is not my original intentions for Ascend or for me as I never wanted to spend my time, all of my time, dealing with managing a small business. Between daily production, in-house demos, and technical emails – I quickly found myself without a spare minute for the Sierra-2. I think most companies would love this type of volume, but I have been there before and my passion, more so my desire to share my passion, was being squashed and let my just say that I was not a happy camper and drastic changes were needed.

I am pleased to say that we have made several considerable internal changes here at Ascend. We have added 2 additional employees, have now completed leasing another facility behind our current unit which will be used for both engineering and additional warehousing, and we have also doubled the size of our production line while completely re-organizing the warehouse. I have made a sizeable investment back into Ascend so that we can better support higher sales volumes and more importantly, free more of my time for engineering.

Having said that, the Sierra-2 is progressing nicely. I had a slight setback with the last set of prototype components as there was a slight error (not sure if it was my fault or theirs) but I expect the next batch of prototypes to be perfect and “final”. From there it is just a matter of optimizing the existing Sierra-2 crossover to accommodate the changes and then the components head into production.

I know everyone would like a firm time line and estimated prices, but I don’t want to provide information that is not accurate. Without question, it will happen this year and more than likely, by the end of June. Yes, Sierra-1, Sierra-1 NrT will be user upgradeable to the Sierra-2 – and while this complicates matters, this plan will not change. In addition, the Sierra-2 will not replace the Sierra-1 or Sierra-1 NrT, it will be an additional product in our lineup. The Sierra-2 will indeed use the same cabinet as the Sierra-1.

Thanks so much for all of the support and for your patience with us!!!

Considering that you produce World Class products at what can only be described as bargain prices, it would be hard to imagine this scenario not becoming a reality.

As more folks are introduced to Ascend speakers, and in particular the newer high end products, it is becoming increasingly clear to discerning, value conscious buyers that better sound quality would be hard to come by even at many multiples of the cost of these outstanding performers.

I can think of no other speaker line that comes anywhere even remotely close to the price of Sierra Towers that I would consider.

The thought of a bookshelf that can match the high end, and come so very close to the mid-range performance of my Sierra Tower/Horizon front stage will likely create an even higher demand for those seeking audio nirvana. Can't wait to hear a set of these babies when they pass your stringent requirements.

Very glad to hear that you have freed yourself of some of the more plebian tasks, enabling the design genius in you to do what it is you do so very well!

Jay

[aenthusiast]

What I'm curious to find out is if people who choose to upgrade to the new tweeter and crossover, but who have already upgraded to the Nrt, will sell their used Nrt tweeters and crossovers possibly creating a used market... Is this possible?

[curtis]

What I'm curious to find out is if people who choose to upgrade to the new tweeter and crossover, but who have already upgraded to the Nrt, will sell their used Nrt tweeters and crossovers possibly creating a used market... Is this possible?
I didn't upgrade my Sierra-1's to Sierra-1 NrT's, but if I remember correctly, part of the upgrade agreement was to send back your standard tweeter and crossover. If that is true, then I think it would be same for the Sierra-2 upgrade.

Someone correct me if I am wrong about the NrT upgrade.

[GirgleMirt]

I didn't upgrade my Sierra-1's to Sierra-1 NrT's, but if I remember correctly, part of the upgrade agreement was to send back your standard tweeter and crossover. If that is true, then I think it would be same for the Sierra-2 upgrade.

Someone correct me if I am wrong about the NrT upgrade.
That is not true, so consider yourself corrected! ;) You could send your original crossover & tweeter for a rebate on the upgrade, but you could also do the upgrade without sending in your old parts. :)

So actually, indeed, it could create a 2nd hand market for NrT upgrade... Hmmm... Interesting...

[curtis]

That is not true, so consider yourself corrected! ;) You could send your original crossover & tweeter for a rebate on the upgrade, but you could also do the upgrade without sending in your old parts. :)

So actually, indeed, it could create a 2nd hand market for NrT upgrade... Hmmm... Interesting...
OK...I stand corrected. :)

I wonder how the 2nd hand market will affect warranties.

[GirgleMirt]

OK...I stand corrected. :)

I wonder how the 2nd hand market will affect warranties.
Warranties for who? In both cases, for the seller of a used NrT upgrade, or for someone who decides to buy a 2nd hand NrT upgrade from an individual and then trying to install them themselves on their Sierras, I'd say it would void both warranties. I don't remember what the warranty was on a DIY NrT upgrade, don't think it was "at your own risk", but if someone managed to damage something during the installation, while I'm sure Ascend would offer a reasonable warranty, it certainly wouldn't cover damage caused by improper installation by a customer...

So anyway, the warranty would probably be void, usually the case with 2nd hand items. Or at least least it would be 'interesting' to try to get warranty on a 2nd hand 2nd installation DIY NrT upgrade ;)

Depending on cost of the upgrade, was a ballpark pricing mentioned btw? Don't remember... Anyhow, depending on the cost of the upgrade, if it's expensive enough, it might be worth selling your pair of S1s and getting new S1s with the RAAL upgrade installed... Say it's 500$ for the upgrade, which really wouldn't be exorbitant given 2 RAAL tweeters and two crossovers, now on sale 800$ for new PB S1s, maybe adding a 300$ for RAAL upgrade (not paying for original tweeter & crossover on new pre-upgraded purchases, so bit cheaper), minus say 400$ for used S1 sale, total cost... 700$, well plus tax and shipping... Ok, so probably not worth it in this case, but if the upgrade is 600, and you get to sell your S1s for more.. ;) Ok probably won't work too well in the end hehehe All conjecture now anyhow lol :cool: Maybe for a finish change at the same time though...

[petmotel]

What I'm curious to find out is if people who choose to upgrade to the new tweeter and crossover, but who have already upgraded to the Nrt, will sell their used Nrt tweeters and crossovers possibly creating a used market... Is this possible?

Seems most folks are assuming this is just going to be a tweeter/crossover upgrade. I was under the impression that one of the major goals was to get the midrange more in line with the Towers since that is the area of the biggest performance disparity, not the high frequency.

My thoughts are that a different woofer (lighter, faster) might be part of this package, which of course might lead to a slight loss of bass extension. In my case, I'd gladly sacrifice some low bass in exchange for a midrange closer to what the Towers produce. I have a big 'ol sub to take care of those frequencies anyway. In fact, I'm more interested in the mid-range performance of the Sierra-2 than the highs, which is already superb with the NRT.

Anticipation, it's making us wait (Carly Simon, or Carole King?) LOL.

Jay

[GirgleMirt]

Its a bit counter intuitive, but the tweeter also affects the mids. How much actually depends on the tweeter and crossover. In truth, mids, highs, bass are a bit abstract, they refer to the frequency; 20hz, 20000hz, etc., so all drivers able handle a certain range. Check out the measurements page, I think they show woofer and tweeter vs freqs.[edit] ok they don't... Ok here's an example (http://www.zaphaudio.com/SR71-modeled-individual.gif). Tweeter and woofer, 2 way. Sometimes, a tweeter can go lower and handle more of the mids, sometimes, it's the opposite, a tweeter will have poor performance at its lower end and will need to be crossed over quite high (often the case with cheap tweeters). So as tweeter goes lower in frequency it will increase in distortion and decrease in volume/power handling... For the woofer, it's usually the same but inverted, distorts more as the frequency increases and also roll off. (both of these extremes get worst because you're going out of the range they were designed to handle...)

So it's all about drivers, if your mid has good high freq performance, you can cross it over higher, and use maybe a cheaper tweeter that doesn't need to go as low... Or, if you have a tweeter that goes lower, than you can use a driver who's high frequency performance isn't so good, but it won't matter because the tweeter will 'take it over' if you will. It always varies from design to design...

So phew, tweeter can increase mid performance! And btw, NrT upgrade improved mids... So RAAL could too ;)

[Mag_Neato]

Its a bit counter intuitive, but the tweeter also affects the mids. It depends on the tweeter and crossover. In truth, mids, highs, bass are a bit abstract, they refer to the frequency; 20hz,,20000hz, etc., so all drivers able handle a certain range. Some higher, others lower... you can look at measurements page, I think they show woofer and tweeter vs freqs.

Btw, NrT upgrade improved mids... So RAAL could too ;)

Yes, the NrT improved the mids because it can be crossed lower than the standard Sierra-1 tweeter.

[rmac]

I have a LRC Sierra-1 NrT, any one know what the cross over is? Planning to upgrade if it is sonically and cost effective. This should go good with my new F12 and future SE200.

[SONDEK]

Dave

I am wondering if - at this juncture - you are able to confirm if the Sierra-2 will be more or less efficient than the Sierra-1 (base tweeter) and whether the impedance load characteristics will change materially?

As a thoroughly delighted Sierra-1 owner with 150w currently on-tap - I am considering moving to a lower powered amp like LAVARDIN or FIRST WATT (F5/J2), both of which are only rated about 25 - 30 watts output.

I imagine that would reduce my current spls by around 6dB - 2-clicks on my current DACT stepped attenuator - which still sounds plenty loud in my current rig, using my Sierra-1s.

Understanding likely Sierra-2 efficiency / impedance levels would certainly be handy during this amp decision phase... Any thoughts?

[davef]

Dave

I am wondering if - at this juncture - you are able to confirm if the Sierra-2 will be more or less efficient than the Sierra-1 (base tweeter) and whether the impedance load characteristics will change materially?

As a thoroughly delighted Sierra-1 owner with 150w currently on-tap - I am considering moving to a lower powered amp like LAVARDIN or FIRST WATT (F5/J2), both of which are only rated about 25 - 30 watts output.

I imagine that would reduce my current spls by around 6dB - 2-clicks on my current DACT stepped attenuator - which still sounds plenty loud in my current rig, using my Sierra-1s.

Understanding likely Sierra-2 efficiency / impedance levels would certainly be handy during this amp decision phase... Any thoughts?


The current protoype of the Sierra-2 is 1/2dB less efficient than the Sierra-1. Since every component is being fully customized and highly optimized for the intended usage, the "plan" is that this final batch of prototype components will compensate for the 1/2 dB difference. In addition, the impedance profile should be nearly identical. I expect the final version of the Sierra-2 to have nearly the same efficiency ( +/- 0.3dB) and nearly an identical impedance profile -- close enough so that any amp/receivers will never know the difference.

Hope this helps!

[Dark Ranger]

Now that's a tasty morsel of interesting info. :)

As always, your attention to detail is much appreciated. I also like how you put quotes around the "plan." Something about mice and men. Although, whenever I hear "The Plan," I usually think about Battlestar Galactica. "...and they have a plan." :cool:

[SONDEK]

Dave

Many thanks for confirming these efficiency and impedance 'plans' for the Sierra-2. Sounds good to me...
Now I just need to figure out if 25 Class-A watts will drive the Sierras to satisfying in-room volumes.
Appreciated.

PS: I don't crank it up, I'm more interested in highly dynamic and accurate low-mid volume listening...

-SONDEK

[Erik]

Dave

Many thanks for confirming these efficiency and impedance 'plans' for the Sierra-2. Sounds good to me...
Now I just need to figure out if 25 Class-A watts will drive the Sierras to satisfying in-room volumes.
Appreciated.

PS: I don't crank it up, I'm more interested in highly dynamic and accurate low-mid volume listening...

-SONDEK

I am currently driving the Sierra-1 NRT with a Red Wine Audio Sig 15 (about to be upgraded to the Sig 16). The amp is 15wpc and has a Class A tube input stage. Before that I had 100W Yamaha HT receiver. The receiver was definitely louder, but the sound quality of Sig 15 is in a different league.

I do not listen at loud volumes either (small kids sleeping), but things really come alive a bit louder than I feel comfortable when the wife and kids are asleep; which is about 11 O'clock on the volume knob. I do not have an SPL meter so I don't know what 11 O'clock translates to. When they are out, the Sig 15 has plenty of power for my taste.

I did find that NRT sounded louder than the stock tweeter, I'm a bit surprised that the Sierra-2 has a lower sensitivity rating.

I do not have anything else to compare the Sierra's to. Red Wine Audio has a 30 day trial, not sure if FirstWatt or LAVARDIN do. But without that trial, I probably would have not pulled trigger on a 15W integrated running 86.5db 8ohm speakers since I had no real world point of reference. Just the SPL calculators on the internet....

[SONDEK]

Erik

Very Helpful information thank you.

Your 15-watts is half of what I intend to use (30) on my Sierra-1s, so I should have around a 3 dB advantage over your current maximum in-room SPLs... Or at least that's how the theory would calculate on paper.

Of course, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating...

Sadly, very little chance of an audition down here in New Zealand. Oh well...

[Erik]

Erik

Very Helpful information thank you.

Your 15-watts is half of what I intend to use (30) on my Sierra-1s, so I should have around a 3 dB advantage over your current maximum in-room SPLs... Or at least that's how the theory would calculate on paper.

Of course, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating...

Sadly, very little chance of an audition down here in New Zealand. Oh well...

I found some SPL meters for the iPhone, I'll do some measurements and let you know the values I get.

[SGCSG1]

I'm bummed these got pushed back to June. :(

Has anyone ordered the 'custom Sierra-1 with the same RAAL tweeter as the tower'? That's something that's available to build, I believe.

[Erik]

Erik

Very Helpful information thank you.

Your 15-watts is half of what I intend to use (30) on my Sierra-1s, so I should have around a 3 dB advantage over your current maximum in-room SPLs... Or at least that's how the theory would calculate on paper.

Of course, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating...

Sadly, very little chance of an audition down here in New Zealand. Oh well...

Hi SONDEK,

I feel like I'm hijacking this thread, so I'll keep it short. Here are the values I found with iPhone SPL meter using 15wpc:
My normal Listen volume - about 9-10 O'clock on dial - Peaked at 86db
12 O'clock on the Dial - Peaked at 95db
3 O'clock on the Dial - Peaked at 101db (but the amp did clip, so I didn't go back and try that again)

Hope that helps, if you want more info PM me