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Thread: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

  1. #11
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    But serious, a few inches isn't going to make an audible difference from more than a few feet away.
    People generally get overly concerned with having the speaker at the ideal height. For our ribbons, I recommend sitting within +/- 10 degrees of the midpoint of the ribbon tweeter. At a listening distance of only 3 feet, this means your ears should be within 1/2 foot above and 1/2 foot below the midpoint of the ribbon. Within this "window" - no human could hear a difference due to height differences - if they do, it is due to room acoustics - not high frequency dispersion.

    At a typical listening distance of 8 feet, the vertical listening window becomes 18 inches above and 18 inches below.
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    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  2. #12
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Roen View Post
    When moving to a new condo, I had been thinking about going to a 3 tower, 3 horizon or 2 tower / 1 horizon setup for the front.

    I've been a pretty big stickler for identical three speakers in the front for SQ reasons, so the third option dropped pretty quickly (unless someone has a convincing SQ argument for 2 tower / 1 horizon)

    I would most likely be wall mounting a 55 or 65 inch OLED, so I'm thinking 3 Horizon, since I can wall mount them right underneath the OLED.

    Is there an SQ argument for 3 tower, knowing that I won't be using a perforated screen? I think the TV would be way too high if it would be above the center tower.

    And lastly, is 3 Horizon going to be much better than my current 3 S2 setup? I had been planning on moving the S2 to surround duty and getting a fourth to complete a 7.x.x setup.
    Horizon and Sierra Towers use the same components... It is perfectly matched with the tower. I recommend it over a single Sierra Tower for the center.

    3 horizons for the fronts is becoming quite popular lately and it is a considerable step up in performance compared to 3 Sierra-2's, especially with regard to dynamics - which is extremely important for home theater.
    Last edited by davef; 08-30-2017 at 04:59 PM.
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    David Fabrikant
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  3. #13
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Horizon and Sierra Towers use the same components... It is perfectly matched with the tower. I recommend it over a single Sierra Tower for the center.

    3 horizons for the fronts is becoming quite popular lately and it is a considerable step up in performance compared to 3 Sierra-2's, especially with regard to dynamics - which is extremely important for home theater.
    I'd like to hear more on why you recommend 2 Tower / 1 Horizon rather than 3 Tower, on purely audio reasons only (ignoring form or placement or other logistical reasons). Or is it that it provides the same audio, but you get the all the other non-audio benefits?

  4. #14
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    I have two towers and a horizon center. They match perfectly. So much so, I think they'd be hard to tell apart in a blind listening test. Three towers would be awkward looking imo. My opinion - don't try to get three identical speakers, you'll gain nothing and potentially end up with something weird looking, or your tv in a sub optimal spot.

    Whatever way you choose good luck!

  5. #15
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Another big advantage of the Horizon as a center in comparison with the Towers is that the Horizon is front ported so it can be placed agains the wall. The closest the front of the center speaker is to the plane of the TV or projector screen the better. If the center is too far from the screen or TV plane then the dialog feels like is not coming from the screen.
    Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
    Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
    Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
    Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |

  6. #16
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Quote Originally Posted by kongar View Post
    I have two towers and a horizon center. They match perfectly. So much so, I think they'd be hard to tell apart in a blind listening test. Three towers would be awkward looking imo. My opinion - don't try to get three identical speakers, you'll gain nothing and potentially end up with something weird looking, or your tv in a sub optimal spot.
    I think the Horizon is the exception rather than the norm in the world of matched centers.

    http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...valuation.html

    The numbers still show the superiority of a vertical center channel vs a horizontal center, if you look at the same speaker but different orientation, or even across speakers. To say there is nothing to gain from three identical speakers is quite the gross overstatement, considering that the advice is usually to get three identical fronts for the most cohesive frond sound field / soundstage.
    Last edited by Roen; 08-31-2017 at 11:14 PM.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Agreed, I should have been more specific. I wouldn't get three identical Sierra towers. I'm not so sure you're getting much there since they match so well. If you do go three identical, I'd go three horizons because the center would fit better (and I see horizon=tower, so get what fits the space best imo)

    After owning my speakers for about a year and a half now - I'm sure you'd be happy with ascend regardless of what configuration you pick. Best of luck!

  8. #18
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Roen View Post
    I think the Horizon is the exception rather than the norm in the world of matched centers.

    http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...valuation.html

    The numbers still show the superiority of a vertical center channel vs a horizontal center, if you look at the same speaker but different orientation, or even across speakers. To say there is nothing to gain from three identical speakers is quite the gross overstatement, considering that the advice is usually to get three identical fronts for the most cohesive frond sound field / soundstage.
    You are looking at generalities rather than specifics. There are far too many variables involved to conclude that Audioholics "numbers" apply to every center speaker. Plus, there is much more to center channel performance than simply horizontal dispersion, which really means nothing provided that you can get a wide enough response with no evidence of lobing.

    When I mention wide enough -- in most installations, +/- 30 degrees is plenty, otherwise you are sitting nearly directly in front of one of the left/right speakers which will cause more audible problems than even the worst center channel speaker....

    For example, if you are at a distance of 10 feet, +/- 30 degrees means you can sit up to approx 6 feet to the left and 6 feet to the right with no evidence of lobing. That is also assuming a human can actually hear lobing in a typical room environment, which I can assure - there are far more audible room anomalies one hears than lobing.

    That stated:

    If you look at the polar response of the Horizon, there is zero evidence of lobing even at 90 degs off-axis. How is this possible? It is really quite simple with no "magic" - we use an exceptionally beefy midrange that is crossed to the bass woofers at a low enough wavelength such that the woofers don't produce a wavelength that is 1/4 shorter than the distance between the 2 woofers.

    The distance between the Horizon woofers = 15 inches. We cross our mid to the woofers at ~ 180Hz. 180Hz = a wavelength of ~ 75 inches. 1/4 of this = 18.75 inches = quite a bit greater than the distance between the woofers.

    In addition, while I prefer to use the 1/4 wavelength calculation, many professionals claim lobing is only audible using the 1/2 wavelength calculation, which than translates to a minimum C-C woofer spacing of 37.5 inches for lobing to occur.

    The major difference is that most w-t/m-w centers use tiny 3" or 4" mids which must be crossed to the bass woofers at much higher frequencies, typically 800Hz... Which now means woofer to woofer spacing needs to be at 4.25" or less (using 1/4 wavelength calculation)

    The Audioholics article is decent, but it only covers one aspect of center channel performance, and this particular aspect is not a concern with our Horizon center.
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    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  9. #19
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Roen View Post
    I'd like to hear more on why you recommend 2 Tower / 1 Horizon rather than 3 Tower, on purely audio reasons only (ignoring form or placement or other logistical reasons). Or is it that it provides the same audio, but you get the all the other non-audio benefits?
    Several reasons why.

    Horizon has wider vertical dispersion compared to our tower so it will sound more like the audio is coming from the TV rather then below it. (critical for center channel performance)

    Horizon sacrifices a bit of deep bass for more midbass - providing a bit more impact than the towers, which is great for special effects, of which the majority comes through the center.

    Horizon is far more placement friendly due to the front ports.

    Hope this helps!
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  10. #20
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    Default Re: 3 RAAL Towers or 3 RAAL Horizon for front LCR

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    You are looking at generalities rather than specifics. There are far too many variables involved to conclude that Audioholics "numbers" apply to every center speaker. Plus, there is much more to center channel performance than simply horizontal dispersion, which really means nothing provided that you can get a wide enough response with no evidence of lobing.

    When I mention wide enough -- in most installations, +/- 30 degrees is plenty, otherwise you are sitting nearly directly in front of one of the left/right speakers which will cause more audible problems than even the worst center channel speaker....

    For example, if you are at a distance of 10 feet, +/- 30 degrees means you can sit up to approx 6 feet to the left and 6 feet to the right with no evidence of lobing. That is also assuming a human can actually hear lobing in a typical room environment, which I can assure - there are far more audible room anomalies one hears than lobing.

    That stated:

    If you look at the polar response of the Horizon, there is zero evidence of lobing even at 90 degs off-axis. How is this possible? It is really quite simple with no "magic" - we use an exceptionally beefy midrange that is crossed to the bass woofers at a low enough wavelength such that the woofers don't produce a wavelength that is 1/4 shorter than the distance between the 2 woofers.

    The distance between the Horizon woofers = 15 inches. We cross our mid to the woofers at ~ 180Hz. 180Hz = a wavelength of ~ 75 inches. 1/4 of this = 18.75 inches = quite a bit greater than the distance between the woofers.

    In addition, while I prefer to use the 1/4 wavelength calculation, many professionals claim lobing is only audible using the 1/2 wavelength calculation, which than translates to a minimum C-C woofer spacing of 37.5 inches for lobing to occur.

    The major difference is that most w-t/m-w centers use tiny 3" or 4" mids which must be crossed to the bass woofers at much higher frequencies, typically 800Hz... Which now means woofer to woofer spacing needs to be at 4.25" or less (using 1/4 wavelength calculation)

    The Audioholics article is decent, but it only covers one aspect of center channel performance, and this particular aspect is not a concern with our Horizon center.
    Have you done any lobing tests on a vertically oriented Horizon? Would it show improvements vs. horizontal?

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