We Saved The Best For Last!

[piaresquared]

Reading through the discussions here and the website technical data, I haven't seen mention of the crossover frequencies on the ELX. I have the Sierra LXs, so I know how well two LX drivers will likely handle the bass, but I'm curious at what frequency they take over in the ELX. For the RAAL, I assume the crossover is in the 2.5 to 3.0 kHz range just judging by the published data on the Seas Curv and RAAL tweeters (although I know Ascend uses custom versions of the two).

I don't mean to pry in case this is proprietary information. I'm used to seeing it with other speakers and thought I would ask, out of curiosity.

[maheeinfy]

Just curious how ELX towers compare to JTR floor standers. Can’t imagine anyone doing a side by side listening tests, but curious how ELX towers compare to speakers that are physically larger and with bigger drivers

[davef]

Reading through the discussions here and the website technical data, I haven't seen mention of the crossover frequencies on the ELX. I have the Sierra LXs, so I know how well two LX drivers will likely handle the bass, but I'm curious at what frequency they take over in the ELX. For the RAAL, I assume the crossover is in the 2.5 to 3.0 kHz range just judging by the published data on the Seas Curv and RAAL tweeters (although I know Ascend uses custom versions of the two).

I don't mean to pry in case this is proprietary information. I'm used to seeing it with other speakers and thought I would ask, out of curiosity.

Acoustic crossover points are as follows. Bass woofers "cross" to the midrange driver at ~400Hz. Midrange crosses to the RAAL at approx 2.8kHz.

Hope this helps!

[davef]

Just curious how ELX towers compare to JTR floor standers. Can’t imagine anyone doing a side by side listening tests, but curious how ELX towers compare to speakers that are physically larger and with bigger drivers

These are completely different speakers with very different design goals. It's a bit like comparing a Ferrari SF90 to a Hummer. JTR are designed for very high efficiency combined with very high SPL capabilities. If you are looking for a speaker with ideal directivity and accuracy, there is no comparison between the two - ELX is in an entirely different league. However, if you want speakers that will deliver 120+ dB and fill giant rooms, than JTR has the advantage. JTR will also be very limited in bass compared to ELX, JTR 210HT are -6dB at 63Hz. In comparison, our ELX are -6dB at 31Hz (that is a tremendous difference)

I know that the general public typically views larger drivers as "better" - but that is far from the actual truth. The only thing larger drivers provide is higher efficiency, and that comes at the expense of poorer directivity.

You can actual directly compare NFS measurements of our ELX with JTR210HT:

https://www.spinorama.org/compare.ht...r&version1=eac

hope this helps!

[piaresquared]

Acoustic crossover points are as follows. Bass woofers "cross" to the midrange driver at ~400Hz. Midrange crosses to the RAAL at approx 2.8kHz.

Hope this helps!

Thank you!

[davef]

At various points in this discussion, Dave has mentioned that the ELX speakers use only the highest-quality parts. This morning, I was reading up on RAAL ribbon tweeters and realized, not surprisingly, that not all RAAL ribbons are created equal.

Below is a table of some of the differences between the RAAL used in the ELX speakers and the RAAL used in other well-made and well-regarded speakers. Among the many differences is the use of a ferrite core in the lower-level RAAL. This explains why Dave notes in the ELX specifications the use of an amorphous core transformer in the RAAL he uses.

Attachment 2755

This is excellent info, but where did you obtain this?

I have been under contractual obligation to never discuss an additional major performance advantage of the RAAL 70-20XR compared to the 64-10x, or any other true ribbon tweeter.

Apparently this info is now, finally, public! Below is a direct quote from the RAAL website.

The below info is really what sets the 70-20xram apart from ANY other tweeter in the world, and is directly responsible for its incredibly smooth but detailed and airy sound, as well as its nearly perfect impulse (transient) response. This why we still continue to use this tweeter, despite how unbelievably expensive it is (it is worth every penny).

The below feature combined with the 70-20's amorphous core transformer is unique, distinct and clearly audible when comparing this particular RAAL to all the others.

I should add, this unique feature also makes the 70-20xram ribbon INCREDIBLY DURABLE with massive power handling.

The next feature that sets this ribbon apart from the others is that the ribbon is made like a sandwich. It’s made out of two layers of aluminum foil with a thickness of 8 microns, which is ironed and stiffened by a very demanding process. In between the two layers of aluminum foil a special grease is extremely precisely measured and applied, which has the role of soothing the ribbon in an even shorter time after the impulse stops. This ribbon doesn’t have carrier foil made out of MYLAR, it’s in direct touch with air. This provides the smallest possible moving mass, several hundreds of times smaller than any classic DOME tweeter and far smaller than RIBBONS with a MYLAR carrier foil.

https://nnraal.com/product_model_70_20xr.html

You will not find this incredible tweeter in a loudspeaker that is priced at anywhere even close to our Towers and Horizons. Typically, the 70-20xram will be found in speaker costing $20K/pair and up....

[maheeinfy]

Thanks Dave. Love the analogy.

Been reading that larger speakers create a bigger sense of scale. Since ELX towers are on the slimmer side, how do they achieve the scale? I am guessing speaker size is only part of the equation.

Regarding the bamboo cabinets, i love them on my S2 for their inertness. Would love to know from a designer perspective why choose bamboo over something like Baltic birch, which JTR uses in their products

[piaresquared]

Hi, Dave,

I used Perplexity to search for info on the RAAL and compile the results. Perplexity uses AI like ChatGPT (although you can select from among several models) and searches the web much like a Google search but focused on the question you ask and without ads. I asked Perplexity to display the results as a table and then copied this into Excel to format and screenshot.

Below is the response to “List all sources of data for this table.” Still, I find it’s about as useful as a college freshman research assistance: odd results will crop up if you aren’t critical of what you get.

=====Reply from Perplexity=====

The data for the comparison table between the RAAL 64-10X OEM ribbon tweeter and the RAAL 70-20XR-AM ribbon tweeter was sourced from the following:

1. **Solen**: Specifications for both the RAAL 64-10 and RAAL 70-20XR-AM tweeters, including frequency response, impedance, sensitivity, and crossover points [1][5].
2. **Madisound Speaker Store**: Details on the RAAL 70-20XR-AM's selectable impedance and sensitivity, as well as its repairability and application versatility [2][7].
3. **Nonsolospeakers**: Information about the RAAL 64-10's ferrite core transformer, non-repairable design, and compact size [4].
4. **NN RAAL Ribbons**: Additional technical details on both models, including ribbon dimensions, materials, and specific applications [8][9].
5. **AudioCircle Forum**: General insights into differences between RAAL models and their design philosophy [3].
6. **HiFiCompass**: Description of the RAAL 70-20XR-AM's advanced features like its amorphous core transformer and low crossover point [12].

These sources provided comprehensive technical specifications and contextual information for creating the detailed comparison table.

Citations:
[1] https://solen.ca/en/products/raal-64-10-ribbon-tweeter
[2] https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...ibbon-tweeter/
[3] https://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php
[4] https://www.nonsolospeakers.com/ribb...n-tweeter.html
[5] https://solen.ca/en/products/raal-70...ribbon-tweeter
[6] https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166926.0
[7] https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...ibbon-tweeter/
[8] https://nnraal.com/product_model_70_20xr.html
[9] https://nnraal.com/product_model_64_10.html
[10] http://www.stonessoundstudio.com.au/...on_tweeter.htm
[11] https://www.reddit.com/r/diysound/co...epairing_6410/
[12] https://hificompass.com/en/catalog/s...ribbon-tweeter
[13] https://techtalk.parts-express.com/f...big-deal/page9
[14] https://www.diyaudio.com/community/t...act-tl.356906/
[15] https://everydayaudiophile.com/2021/...dio-bmr-tower/
[16] https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...cement-ribbon/
[17] https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php
[18] http://stonessoundstudio.com.au/ston...r_products.htm

[piaresquared]

It is strange that RAAL names its ribbons using numbers correlating to the ribbon size when the ribbon and components in the tweeters differ significantly.

I had always gotten the impression that a RAAL was a RAAL, and they came in different sizes. That is not the case at all.

There are obviously a lot of design elements that distinguish the ELX (crossover, LX drivers, design experience, Klippel validation, solid bamboo cabinets, etc.), but the use of the best-of-the-best RAAL vs. the other RAAL models might not be as well understood.

Looking at something like the Sourcepoint 888, I would have to believe that a 1.25" soft dome tweeter sitting coaxially within a mid cone that acts as a waveguide (and induces distortion as the mid cone moves), is going to suffer quite audibly in comparison to the top of the line RAAL in the ELX Towers.

Judging from data on Spinorama, the frequency response on the 888 is also more jagged. If I understand the "Tone" number on Spinorama, this jagged response accounts for the difference between the calculated Tone number of 7.0 for the ELX RAAL and 6.2 for the 888. Spinorama considers a difference of more than 0.6 to be significant, and this difference is likely related to more than just the tweeter.

It would be interesting to hear a comparison between the 888 and the ELX RAAL. I don't doubt that the ELX would sound better (likely in bass texture, dynamics, detail retrieval, and soundstage/airiness).

[davef]

Hi, Dave,

I used Perplexity to search for info on the RAAL and compile the results. Perplexity uses AI like ChatGPT (although you can select from among several models) and searches the web much like a Google search but focused on the question you ask and without ads. I asked Perplexity to display the results as a table and then copied this into Excel to format and screenshot.

AI is truly amazing. I have not used or heard of Perplexity, I will check it out ASAP - thank you!