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Thread: We Saved The Best For Last!

  1. #681
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    Quote Originally Posted by maheeinfy View Post
    Thanks Dave. Love the analogy.

    Been reading that larger speakers create a bigger sense of scale. Since ELX towers are on the slimmer side, how do they achieve the scale? I am guessing speaker size is only part of the equation.
    Where did you read this because this is not true... Sense of scale, with regard to loudspeakers, is an illusion created both visually and by what you think you are hearing. There is no quantifiable or identifiable characteristic for "scale"... That stated, speakers that have wide dispersion, thus creating a large soundstage, in combination with good bass extension and midbass punch create the illusion of a large scale. Driver size has nothing to do with this, at all....

    I have listened to pro-gear with 15" woofers designed for high efficiency - at the sacrifice of bass and poor directivity, sound significantly "smaller" than a pair of well designed satellite speakers in combination with a properly integrated subwoofer.


    Quote Originally Posted by maheeinfy View Post
    Regarding the bamboo cabinets, i love them on my S2 for their inertness. Would love to know from a designer perspective why choose bamboo over something like Baltic birch, which JTR uses in their products
    Baltic Birch has nothing in common with the bamboo material we use. Besides being much less expensive, baltic birch is full of voids and is not a cross ply. Birch is also less dense with much shorter fibers. Bamboo has very long fibers which dramatically reduce / absorb resonance, it is stiffer, environmentally friendly and truly sustainable as it is the fastest growing plant in the world.

    I would choose MDF over baltic birch for a speaker cabinet as MDF is less resonant. Baltic Birch has the advantage of being much lighter though, so there can be considerable cost savings involved for larger speakers due to the reduced weight for shipping.
    Last edited by davef; 01-23-2025 at 08:30 PM.
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  2. #682
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    Jul 2014
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    Thanks Dave. Good to know ELX does scale well
    Bamboo cabinets are awesome for inertness and sustainability reasons. Other than Ascend I don’t know anyone else using them; i think i read somewhere they are quite expensive

  3. #683
    Join Date
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    The rare use of bamboo by others is either bamboo veneer or bamboo plywood.

    Bamboo plywood is not the same as the 3-ply V-LAM used in Ascend loudspeakers, from what I can see:

    "V-LAM bamboo (vertically laminated bamboo) differs from bamboo plywood in both its construction and applications:

    Construction
    V-LAM Bamboo: V-LAM is made by laminating thin vertical strips of bamboo edge-to-edge, creating panels where the grain runs vertically. This structure provides extreme rigidity and strength, as the vertical orientation maximizes the material's load-bearing capacity and resistance to bending or warping. It is often used in high-performance applications like speaker cabinets, where rigidity and reduced resonance are critical.

    Bamboo Plywood: Bamboo plywood is created by layering thin sheets or slats of bamboo, which are glued together under high pressure. The layers can be arranged in different orientations (horizontal, vertical, or cross-laminated) to achieve specific properties. The grain orientation in bamboo plywood can vary depending on the intended use, offering flexibility in design and strength.

    Strength and Durability
    V-LAM Bamboo: The vertical lamination process results in a denser, more rigid material that is highly resistant to vibrations, making it ideal for applications requiring structural stability and acoustic performance (e.g., loudspeaker cabinets).

    Bamboo Plywood: While also strong and durable, bamboo plywood may not match the rigidity of V-LAM due to its layered construction. However, it excels in versatility and is widely used for furniture, flooring, and cabinetry.

    Environmental Impact
    Both materials are eco-friendly as they utilize bamboo—a fast-growing, renewable resource. However, V-LAM's vertical lamination process may involve more precise manufacturing techniques compared to the broader applications of bamboo plywood."

    Baltic birch cabinets are also made from gluing sheets together, the way that bamboo plywood is made. Baltic birch used in loudspeaker cabinets is also not V-LAM.
    Last edited by piaresquared; 01-25-2025 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #684
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    Great to learn this. Thanks!

  5. #685
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    And if you weren't aware, bamboo is a grass.

    We've got a bunch growing at the back of our land in Brazil. Not enough to supply Ascend though - sorry Dave :-)
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  6. #686
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    Weird...I was under the assumption that Baltic plywood is essentially void free, superior, stronger & lighter to either MDF or HDF boards. How it compares to bamboo well...that's like apples to oranges.
    Media Room 5.1.2: TitanTowers v2 & STC(RAAL v2), Monitor Audio CP-WT & CT 260s
    Sub: 18.0 Funk Audio in Santos Brazilian Rosewood

    Source: Denon X3800H, Oppo BDP 103D, UBK-90 4K & LG OLED 65".
    Office 2.0: Phil's Gloss WhiteTrue Mini, Fosi TB10D & Wiim mini.

  7. #687
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    "Plywood Voids

    Standard birch plywood is more prone to voids (holes in the ply layers). Voids can affect the structural integrity of any project, and large holes should be filled to give the wood more durability. Conversely, Baltic birch has very few voids. When voids do appear, most wood suppliers will use a “knockout” to replace the void with an intact piece of wood. With so few voids, Baltic birch offers more stability than its standard counterpart."

    https://forestplywood.com/blog/plywo...-baltic-birch/

    Apparently, "Baltic Birch" and "Birch Plywood" are different. While Baltic Birch still has voids, the use of knockouts to fill the voids could also make its resonant properties slightly variable.

    I think the original suggestion was that baltic birch of some type or another might be better than V-LAM bamboo, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

  8. #688
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    Exactly the point I was trying to make. Starke difference between BB ply & Birch ply...cost notwithstanding...BB is superior to MDF & other plys...in all facets of woodworking projects. Not a lot of comparables to bamboo v lam....in some my past experience using bamboo flooring it very hard to cut and work with...but looks great plus eco friendly.
    Media Room 5.1.2: TitanTowers v2 & STC(RAAL v2), Monitor Audio CP-WT & CT 260s
    Sub: 18.0 Funk Audio in Santos Brazilian Rosewood

    Source: Denon X3800H, Oppo BDP 103D, UBK-90 4K & LG OLED 65".
    Office 2.0: Phil's Gloss WhiteTrue Mini, Fosi TB10D & Wiim mini.

  9. #689
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    Quote Originally Posted by piaresquared View Post
    The rare use of bamboo by others is either bamboo veneer or bamboo plywood.

    Bamboo plywood is not the same as the 3-ply V-LAM used in Ascend loudspeakers, from what I can see:

    "V-LAM bamboo (vertically laminated bamboo) differs from bamboo plywood in both its construction and applications:

    Construction
    V-LAM Bamboo: V-LAM is made by laminating thin vertical strips of bamboo edge-to-edge, creating panels where the grain runs vertically. This structure provides extreme rigidity and strength, as the vertical orientation maximizes the material's load-bearing capacity and resistance to bending or warping. It is often used in high-performance applications like speaker cabinets, where rigidity and reduced resonance are critical.

    Bamboo Plywood: Bamboo plywood is created by layering thin sheets or slats of bamboo, which are glued together under high pressure. The layers can be arranged in different orientations (horizontal, vertical, or cross-laminated) to achieve specific properties. The grain orientation in bamboo plywood can vary depending on the intended use, offering flexibility in design and strength.

    Strength and Durability
    V-LAM Bamboo: The vertical lamination process results in a denser, more rigid material that is highly resistant to vibrations, making it ideal for applications requiring structural stability and acoustic performance (e.g., loudspeaker cabinets).

    Bamboo Plywood: While also strong and durable, bamboo plywood may not match the rigidity of V-LAM due to its layered construction. However, it excels in versatility and is widely used for furniture, flooring, and cabinetry.

    Environmental Impact
    Both materials are eco-friendly as they utilize bamboo—a fast-growing, renewable resource. However, V-LAM's vertical lamination process may involve more precise manufacturing techniques compared to the broader applications of bamboo plywood."

    Baltic birch cabinets are also made from gluing sheets together, the way that bamboo plywood is made. Baltic birch used in loudspeaker cabinets is also not V-LAM.
    Excellent post.. thank you. We have actually taken our bamboo one step further, it is still V-Lam, but we are now also using a cross-ply technique which further enhances stiffness and overall durability. We purchase so much bamboo now that we can directly work with our supplier as to what we want.

    I have attached a pic of the bamboo we have been using for a few years now. You can see the V-Lam inner core, as well as the 2 outer cross-ply layers.

    bamboo.jpg
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

  10. #690
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    Default Re: We Saved The Best For Last!

    Quote Originally Posted by maheeinfy View Post
    Thanks Dave. Good to know ELX does scale well
    Bamboo cabinets are awesome for inertness and sustainability reasons. Other than Ascend I don’t know anyone else using them; i think i read somewhere they are quite expensive
    (1) 4x8 sheet of the bamboo we use costs, on average, of 15 times more than what the same thickness MDF costs. We save a few bucks because MDF must be covered with a wrap, either PVC, vinyl or a veneer.

    MDF must also be properly treated to resist moisture as it is extremely porous and moisture destroys it quickly. Bamboo is completely moisture resistant, and we don't need to use any type of wrap - just natural bamboo finished / dyed / painted as we choose.

    That stated, very few manufacturers use bamboo - it is very expensive, extremely difficult to properly cut (can only use grade A CNC router bits and even then they wear out quickly) and properly finishing the material is also quite difficult. It does not take stain or paint like wood does. It is not something I would recommend using without having the necessary knowledge to do so - it has taken us nearly 20 years to get right
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    Good Sound To You!

    David Fabrikant
    www.ascendacoustics.com

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