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Thread: L12 or F12??!

  1. #1
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    Question L12 or F12??!

    I'm looking to upgrade my Axiom 12" ported sub (in a 2.1 Stereo setup with the Sierra-2EX) to a couple of Rythmik 12 Servos! I have placement space behind each 2EX stand, thus either the L12 or the F12 will fit into this new 2.2 stereo setup. With my dedicated sudo-near-field 90sf 100% music listening room, I don't really have any other options.

    Two of either (L12 or F12) will be an overkill in this smaller environment (no problem for me...love orchestral and pipe organ genre), but since it is dedicated for just "Music", curious if going the double F12 route would be the best way to go...opinions and experiences welcome!

    Ted
    Sierra RAAL V2 Towers, Axiom EP 500 Sub, Morrow SP7 Grand Reference Speaker Cables, Phillips CD880 XLR Balanced Variable Line Output to Orchard Audio Strakrimson 375w/per ch Stereo Ultra GaNFET Amp..... (Dedicated 2.1 Acoustical Music Listening Room)!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: L12 or F12??!

    Have you treated the room? Since it is dedicated to music, I would look into finding out what the acoustic issues of the room are, try to take care of them with treatments/placement, and then go from there.
    -curtis

  3. #3
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    Default Re: L12 or F12??!

    Quote Originally Posted by curtis View Post
    Have you treated the room? Since it is dedicated to music, I would look into finding out what the acoustic issues of the room are, try to take care of them with treatments/placement, and then go from there.
    Thanks Curtis!

    Last year I had 4 -2ft sq. by 2" deep GIK acoustic absorption/reflection panels in an attempt to "improve" my listening position response. After 30-days of many various set-ups and detailed listening sessions, I've discovered my listening room doesn't present any severe acoustic issues (to my ears). Actually, most treatment set ups robbed the live detail/focus of the recording or reduced and collapsed the openness/ambience of the soundstage venues. Seems I already have a well balanced bottom to top presentation in my current listening room!

    So why change what I already have? Well, my stereo components are stacked on top my current 12" sub (see pic) and I want to install them in a small audio rack instead (between the Sierra-2EX). Going with 2-subs would allow me to possibly achieve even better imaging and take the low end response down to 14Hz! Currently, I'm very satisfied with the current sub's musical performance, but can imagine overall improvements (sound wise and aesthetics) by going to a 2.2 stereo configuration!?!

    Ted

    Ascend Acoustic Sierra-2EX.JPG
    Sierra RAAL V2 Towers, Axiom EP 500 Sub, Morrow SP7 Grand Reference Speaker Cables, Phillips CD880 XLR Balanced Variable Line Output to Orchard Audio Strakrimson 375w/per ch Stereo Ultra GaNFET Amp..... (Dedicated 2.1 Acoustical Music Listening Room)!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: L12 or F12??!

    Ted, I went through this exercise earlier this year.

    I have Sierra-2EX's. I had a single Ryhtmik F12 that I had been using for years without any complaints.....awesome sub!

    Last year, with all the time home, I decided to build some corner bass traps. I also have (4) DIY acoustic panels..... 2" thick Owens-Corning 703 in 2' x 4' frames.

    I placed the sub next to the left speaker, same distance to my listening position. I did not have any type of room correction in my Parasound preamp so equidistant placement was the cure.

    Everything sounded fantastic, no complaints. Fast-forward to 2021. I started watching Youtube vids of a few guys who cured some bass response issues by implementing multiple subs along with a MiniDSP 2X4 HD. Using REW software with a UMIK-1 they were able to see exactly what was going on with their response. By locating the subs optimally, using REW measurements to guide them through settings in the MiniDSP, they were able to boost bass output using the multiple subs. Once the response was boosted to where any dips were still high enough above flat, they EQ'd all the peaks down to where the boosted dips were and created a slightly rising response from around 100hz to 30hz of 10db (You never want to boost more than that). So, I purchased a MiniDSP and UMIK-1, and installed the free REW software on a laptop and followed their video. Once I found I could not fix a fairly big dip from 50 to 80hz, I decided to pick up a 2nd F12. After I went through the set up process (measurements.....tweak settings......measurements.......tweak.......measu re....rinse.....repeat) I was amazed at the results. Bass is super clean, detailed, powerful. Seemingly endless headroom, though I'm sure it has a limit.

    So that is what I'd suggest. If you haven't done so, take room measurements of what your system is doing. Only then can you make an educated move to the next step.
    Ed

    * Sierra-2EX's W/V2 crossover upgrade
    * (2) Rythmik F12's
    * Parasound Halo P6
    * Audio by Van Alstine DVA-M225 Monoblock Amps
    * MiniDSP 2x4HD For Sub calibration
    *World's Best Cables Canare 4S11 speaker cables

  5. #5
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    Default Re: L12 or F12??!

    Ed - which youtube videos? Home theater gurus have some really good ones on using miniDSP with multiple subs. If yours were different, could you post a link (if still have it).

    Good suggestion to take measurements using REW (free) and a Umik mic (~100) to evaluate room response. miniDSP is also great, especially for integrating multiple subs. Based on what you find out, could even use it to help smooth out bass with the one sub. Bit of learning curve with REW, though.

    The 2x4 HD is a great unit. I used one for a few years but recently moved to the 10x10HD, after adding a dedicated preamp (needed more inputs). I ran the AVR LFE out to one input, then outputs to each of my subs (3) LFE in's - tailored to movies. I ran l/r line out 2 from preamp to two different inputs, then outputs to the line in of 2 (of 3) subs for 2 channel music. Thought about also running the l/r line out 1 (front left / right mains) to the miniDSP to maybe improve integration. Still debating as mostly vinyl and don't really want AD/DA conversions.

    Another really good device, and automated, is the dspeaker 8033S-ii (for subs) or Antimode (for subs or mains+sub). Currently, I'm trying out the 8033 in my 2 channel system (and just using Anthem ARC for movies). It sounds very good. Did a really good job flattening bass response (did REW measurements with the 8033 engaged and bypassed).

  6. #6
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    Default Re: L12 or F12??!

    Yes, home theater gurus has some good ones. The other guy is home theater gamer.

    Yes, steep learning curve, but the videos give you a good start.
    Last edited by Mag_Neato; 06-08-2021 at 06:02 PM. Reason: Additional comments

  7. #7
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    Default Re: L12 or F12??!

    thanks, Ed.
    Agree that the videos are really great - I used the HT Gurus ones (ep 7, I think, in particular) when I started with REW/miniDSP.
    Robert

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    Exclamation Re: L12 or F12??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mag_Neato View Post
    ...Bass is super clean, detailed, powerful. Seemingly endless headroom, though I'm sure it has a limit....So that is what I'd suggest. If you haven't done so, take room measurements of what your system is doing. Only then can you make an educated move to the next step.
    Ed & Robert,

    Appreciate sharing of your experiences on bass management! I never got into any of the automatic digital evaluation/equalization sources for room management (not sure I ever will). Being an older audiophile, I just use my analog ears (still testing well below the 20db normal human hearing), test CD's (20Hz-20KHz sweeps) and a wide genre of very familiar music! To my sweep spot ears, there is virtually no peaks/nulls in the full range response (till it gets beyond 15kHz, my current upper hearing limits), thus no reason for any room equalization! Guess you could qualify my music playback achievements as the old fashion "SWAG" methodology, with a "KISS" of attitude!

    Ed, your descriptions, "super clean, detailed, powerful, seemingly endless headroom" is what I have Now with my current single sub in my 990cf listening room! There really is nothing I Need to improve what I have in musical bass (tonality, slam, speed, tightness, accuracy, depth...it's all there), but Want to make a Visual set-up change in my very small dedicated music room. This will dictate "2" smaller subs (one behind each S-2EX) and a small -center channel placed- equipment rack. Again, all for mostly Aesthetic reasons (and hopefully keeping the sub performance I already have)!

    My question remains, should I get the L12's or the F12's?

    Ted
    Last edited by theophile; 06-09-2021 at 08:07 AM.
    Sierra RAAL V2 Towers, Axiom EP 500 Sub, Morrow SP7 Grand Reference Speaker Cables, Phillips CD880 XLR Balanced Variable Line Output to Orchard Audio Strakrimson 375w/per ch Stereo Ultra GaNFET Amp..... (Dedicated 2.1 Acoustical Music Listening Room)!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: L12 or F12??!

    Haven't heard both. I have dual E15's in my 2 channel system. I preferred the Al cone, so the F12 if I were going with 12's. The amp on the F12 looks like it has a bit more connection flexibility and digs a bit deeper.

    That said, if you haven't already, talk with Dina or Dave at Ascend or Brian/Enrico at Rythmik. You may also want to ask on the AVS Rythmik thread - Enrico or Brian might respond there, as well.

    https://www.avsforum.com/threads/off...#post-60799306

  10. #10
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    Thumbs up Re: L12 or F12??!

    Quote Originally Posted by racrawford65 View Post
    Haven't heard both. I have dual E15's in my 2 channel system. I preferred the Al cone, so the F12 if I were going with 12's. The amp on the F12 looks like it has a bit more connection flexibility and digs a bit deeper.

    That said, if you haven't already, talk with Dina or Dave at Ascend or Brian/Enrico at Rythmik. You may also want to ask on the AVS Rythmik thread - Enrico or Brian might respond there, as well.

    https://www.avsforum.com/threads/off...#post-60799306
    Agreed! My Axiom has a 12" aluminum cone, thus one of the reasons I'm leaning toward the F12 (+ the deeper sub-audible bass response)!

    I've spoken to Brian at Rythmik and he agrees that either will be over-kill in my small room! However, Dave understands my listening preferences and set-up situation, so I'll also touch "bass" with him in the early evening!

    Ted
    Sierra RAAL V2 Towers, Axiom EP 500 Sub, Morrow SP7 Grand Reference Speaker Cables, Phillips CD880 XLR Balanced Variable Line Output to Orchard Audio Strakrimson 375w/per ch Stereo Ultra GaNFET Amp..... (Dedicated 2.1 Acoustical Music Listening Room)!

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