Best sub for S2EX, Music + HT?

I have been playing with my S2EX for a while, but still cannot get the mid/upperbass fullness I have been searching for. First problem is my room. It's 15x22 and the LP is along the long wall, and the L+R are stuck to less than 2 ft out from the opposite wall and only about 5 ft apart. Sorry, but this is what I am stuck with at the moment due to room and WAF, and cannot add any room enhancements, but there IS a huge sectional that is super absorbing.
I have a older Legacy sub with dual 15's, and it still plays good, but only up to about 60Hz or so. I have a Denon 4700 that allows 2 subs, so i have been experimenting with an old cheapo sub that I had, setting the xover at 90Hz for this one, and about 60 for the Legacy sub, this helped tremendously to fill in the upper bass. It seems that going even higher would help more, but this sub gets nasty above about 90. Running Audessy is worthless, as it always sets fronts to large, and wont account for the subs (maybe im doing something wrong?) and when i try to bump the 125 range on the graphic eq, the EXs cant handle it and get all muddy. I have tried a separate 300WPC amp for the L+R, which helped just a little to get more fullness, but not much.

So, I'm questioning which sub will better mate with the EXs? The L22, or the F8 (Not sure what the FM8 difference is?), thinking the F8 could be used for upper bass, with my old Legacy handling the lows. Or is there a better option? I do realize that the upper bass is directional, but that's a secondary concern behind smoothing out the room response. Want to keep it under $1000.
Thanks

Phew. Okay, lots to absorb here, lol.

You're on the right track. Some good subwoofage will fill in what you're missing. You just need to get things set up.

First, Audyssey. Audyssey does not set your crossovers or decide whether your speakers are large or small. That's determined by the manufacturer and almost always sets the crossover too low or make your speakers large. I don't know why but a friend has a theory that they don't want to tell their customers their speakers are "small"... lol.

Anyhoo, what it does do very well is correct for phase (distance settings), set levels and try to make your frequency response as linear as possible, and in my experience does pretty well with all of the above. I run Audyssey, use careful mic placement and follow the recommended pattern. Then I go into the settings behind it, set my speakers to small and change the crossovers to 80 hz. Done, and my bass is much better than the "before".

If you don't like what Audyssey does with the frequency response you can turn it off and the levels and distances will still remain. Audyssey and room correction in general can be hit or miss, but it has always done very well with distances and levels for me. If you get the MultEQ editor app you can also limit how much correcting it does too. For instance, have it only correct below say, 400 hz for your subwoofers and it will leave your speakers virtually untouched.

Your subs, you have 2 different models? If they're not similar in performance the weaker one will hold the stronger one back. You said you have 2 different low pass (crossover) settings for each sub, 60 and 80 hz respectively? I would bypass the subs' filters using an LFE input or for older models turn the crossover all the way up and let your avr handle that. Also, if there's a significant difference in performance between them I'd just use the best one by itself.

Which Legacy sub do you have? A dual 15" implies some pretty beefy subwoofage. Seems odd that it would only play up to 60 hz tho... most subs are capable of a full octave higher than that.

*Edit: Yeah boy, if it's anything like these newer models you already have a really solid subwoofer!

https://legacyaudio.com/products/vie...ations-reviews

https://legacyaudio.com/products/view/goliath-xd

Your wife is okay with a hulking dual 15" sub in the room but not okay with your speaker placement? Lol

Anyway, both of those are easily capable up to 120 hz, and the Goliath up to 150 hz. I'd be shocked if your model wasn't similar in performance. Either way if you're looking at a sub to match with it you'll want one with similar tuning and performance. It doesn't have to be a dual 15", but I'd want at least a single 15", and should also be of the same design. Meaning ported or sealed. I don't know what you have now but mixing ported with sealed is tricky and not generally recommended.

It pays to be familiar with subwoofer models and when it comes to Rhythmik I am not, lol. I see now that the L22 is a dual 12" subwoofer and quite the monster itself! Yeah, I think it'd work well with your Legacy if it's also sealed. If your Legacy is ported I'd be looking at FV15HP/SE, FVX15 or at a minimum the LVX12.

Thanks pogre, sorry for the late reply.
To answer some of the questions:
I have a Legacy Pacemaker Sub....from the mid 90s. I have a sub transmitter/receiver so it sits in an unobscure part of the room, not near the Main L+R, so this is another reason I do not want to send it very hi frequencies, and no, it does not play anything above 60-70Hz very well, in fact the adjustment only goes to 90!
The only reason I brought in the 2nd sub (pretty crappy) is to see how it might fill in above the 1st sub...and it helped. This is why I want to get a sub that plays higher.
The Legacy sub is ported.
If the Rhythmic performs well, I would likely pull the legacy out of the system. But still, i would not try to overlap upper bass, but use the Legacy for only signals below like 50-60 for extra punch. It seems it would be more critical to mesh with the S2ex...which is ported.

Thanks for the info on the MultiEQ App, I will have to try that.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say " Audyssey does not set your crossovers or decide whether your speakers are large or small. That's determined by the manufacturer and almost always sets the crossover too low or make your speakers large" When I run it, it ALWAYS sets crossover and sets large/small....always sets front to large. And what manufacturer are you speaking of? (Denon?)

I think I would prefer a sealed sub, just based on the fact that they are purported to be more suitable to music vs HT. Again, I can still run my old sub, just manually adjusted to a low xover freq to get the bottom octave.

Thanks again
Qman

Yes, I mean Denon. Or Marantz or Yamaha. Audyssey is not choosing the crossovers or large/small setting. The manufacturer does that and they always set speakers to large and/or set the crossovers too low. My Marantz always sets my Sierra Towers to "large" (my bookshelf speakers too!) and they are not full range speakers. So I go in after running room correction and change them to small. Then I change the crossovers to 80.

I think sealed subs being better for music is more myth than fact. Tho it's a myth that had some grounding in truth a long time ago, but with advances in science, design and computer modeling modern ported subs have come a long way. Today's properly designed ported subs can perform just as well as sealed for music. In fact I've seen some ported subs with even lower group delay (high group delay is a common criticism of ported designs) than some sealed designs.

I think you might have an integration or setup issue. If your sub is capable up to 90 hz then I'd be using a 80 hz crossover. That would definitely help with what you're describing. I have 3 big subs in various locations in my room, 80 hz crossover and no issues with localization.

What you seem to want to do is set up a mid bass module, which is even trickier to set up than a single or even dual subwoofers. How are you planning to do it? Do you have a mic and are familiar with using REW? I would want a calibrated mic and a program to do measurements with to tackle something like that, still wouldn't expect it to be very easy, and I have a lot of experience with integrating subwoofers.

I think if you get your sub (your current one or a new one) integrated properly you won't need a mid bass. Either way it's strongly recommended to not mix ported and sealed. Either both sealed or both ported. Mixing them can be an integration nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Pogre

Yes, I mean Denon. Or Marantz or Yamaha. Audyssey is not choosing the crossovers or large/small setting. The manufacturer does that and they always set speakers to large and/or set the crossovers too low. My Marantz always sets my Sierra Towers to "large" (my bookshelf speakers too!) and they are not full range speakers. So I go in after running room correction and change them to small. Then I change the crossovers to 80.

I think sealed subs being better for music is more myth than fact. Tho it's a myth that had some grounding in truth a long time ago, but with advances in science, design and computer modeling modern ported subs have come a long way. Today's properly designed ported subs can perform just as well as sealed for music. In fact I've seen some ported subs with even lower group delay (high group delay is a common criticism of ported designs) than some sealed designs.

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This is correct, Audyssey simply provides the measured data and the manufacturer of the receiver decides how to interpret it to determine large/small and crossover points etc.

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Originally Posted by davef

This is correct, Audyssey simply provides the measured data and the manufacturer of the receiver decides how to interpret it to determine large/small and crossover points etc.

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Thank you Dave.

I just wanna add that room correction in general isn't a magic bullet and results can vary wildly depending on setup technique (proper mic placement, low noise floor, etc), room interactions and the speakers themselves. I keep it limited to bass frequencies, below 200 hz or so, using the MultEQ app editor. I also use it to turn off midrange compensation too, even if just correcting for bass.

I find Audyssey most useful for bass. Specifically the independant sub delay/leveling and to a lesser extent the actual filtering. A lot of folks will limit Audyssey to correct below the Schroeder frequency (generally around 400 hz) where the room is in charge.

Just as a free-to-try experiment I'd recommend a fresh calibration by running Audyssey, use all available mic positions with careful placement, then change your speaker settings to "small" (if necessary) and change your crossover setting to 80 hz. Then just give it a listen and see what you think. Make sure you bypass your subwoofer's internal filters by turning the crossover all the way up or use the LFE input to bypass internal filtering altogether. Otherwise you're double dipping and over-filtering.

As far as your concerns with localization goes the rule of thumb is generally to start with an 80 hz crossover because it's still low enough to be non-localizable for humans.

Now you just knowing where it is can influence your perception and make you feel like you can localize it. I know this because I have one nearfield (that and the knowledge that we're very susceptible to confirmation bias) and I swear I can tell where it is sometimes, but every time I've had someone over they've failed to realize there's a big ported dual 12" subwoofer just inches away, behind my couch.

Attachment 2307

Is this your sub?

Attachment 2308

It certainly looks like a very capable sub, but it's pretty difficult to find much info on it. Being that it's pushing 30 years old you could be due for an update. Thats a long time for a sub.

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Originally Posted by Qman

and no, it does not play anything above 60-70Hz very well

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If that is true then you likely need to replace that sub. A good sub that still performs within spec should be capable of producing clean bass well above 60 hz. This makes me think there's something wrong with your sub.

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But still, i would not try to overlap upper bass, but use the Legacy for only signals below like 50-60 for extra punch.

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That "punch" is going to come from higher frequencies than 60 hz and below. This is why I recommend trying a higher crossover. If your current sub can't handle it then I'd replace it and start over.

Thanks Pogre.
I guess we are back to my original question; which sub under $1,000? What would I gain/lose by going for the ported vs the sealed? I do not need to reproduce the lowest of lows, but I do need balance and punch.

Thanks

Have you called Ascend to get their recommendation (or even Brian/Enrico at Rythmik)?

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Originally Posted by racrawford65

Have you called Ascend to get their recommendation (or even Brian/Enrico at Rythmik)?

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This. Those guys are going to be most knowledgeable, of course.

In a room your size, and depending on your goals I definitely lean toward ported subs, but again, depends on your goals. Like I hinted on the first page I think one of the ported 15" models (FV 15HP/SE or FVX15) would likely match up to the one you have now. The LVX12 would be next closest. If you want to switch to sealed I'd recommend going dual.

Before you take my word for it tho, give 'em a call and see what they suggest.

First tho, I'd start by experimenting with the one you have now. Run a fresh calibration, change the setting to small and crossovers at 80 hz. Try it with Audyssey turned on and off. The levels and distances will still stick even with Audyssey turned off. You may find a higher crossover fills in what you're missing. That is if your sub can handle it, which it should, unless something is wrong with it.

If you go with a Rythmik, see if a paper cone is available fot the model you choose as, from what I’ve read on AVS Rythmik thread, this has a bit more output in the upper bass region than the aluminum cones.

I do like pogre’s recommendations above but believe all are above your 1k target. Maybe save a bit more and cry once. Could always add a 2nd later if needed.

Other options could be the E22 or maybe 2x12 inch subs. If your goals are punchy and more even bass, then you’ll probably want 2 subs (same model).

FWIW, I run 2 E15’s in my room 16x12x11) which is open to a foyer/dining room behind (dining is same size as listening room) and to den on left (~24x20). These work really well for music and movies.

Thanks for the input folks.

You’re welcome. Let us know what you decide

I'm curious about your current sub. If it isn't capable above 60 hz then I would presume something is wrong with it and needs replaced. I suspect it likely performs fine above 60 hz but I'm not there and it's possible your sub might have issues.

Provided everything is functioning properly and set up carefully tho, I think a higher crossover would shore up the deficiencies you're perceiving,

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Originally Posted by Qman

So, I'm questioning which sub will better mate with the EXs? The L22, or the F8 (Not sure what the FM8 difference is?), thinking the F8 could be used for upper bass, with my old Legacy handling the lows. Or is there a better option? I do realize that the upper bass is directional, but that's a secondary concern behind smoothing out the room response. Want to keep it under $1000.
Thanks

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If smoothing out the room response is your first concern, this is typically handled by two separate subs. It's much easier to control room modes with two subs.

If what you want is subs for both HT and music, I'd go for a pair of ported servo subs. In my case, I bought a pair of LVX12s to go with my Sierra 2 L/R pair, Sierra 1s as surrounds, and a Duo for center. My room is a little narrower than yours, but the other dimensions are about the same. The LVX12's work excellently for smoothing out room response, at least for me.

The reason for the ported servo subs is that with servos, the sound difference between ported and sealed for music is narrowed considerably. But HT needs the ported subs to reach down to that lowest octave with some authority. Without servo subs, it's a more difficult decision, but with servo subs, ported wins out, and fairly easily, at least for me.

Servo subs also make it very easy to integrate the subs into your system. Well, that and your Audyssey system.

So, back to your question: choose between L22 and FM8... The FM8s won't likely help you much given the bottom end of the Sierra-2 EX speakers. If you were using Lunas, maybe. But S-2 EX? I don't think so. As to the L22, one more powerful sub won't smooth out room response without a lot of sub-crawling and probably some room treatments. Better to have two smaller subs, sealed or ported doesn't matter so much as long as they are separates and can be located separately. But if I have to choose only between FM8 or L22, I'll take the L22.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

The reason for the ported servo subs is that with servos, the sound difference between ported and sealed for music is narrowed considerably. But HT needs the ported subs to reach down to that lowest octave with some authority. Without servo subs, it's a more difficult decision, but with servo subs, ported wins out, and fairly easily, at least for me.

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Servo subs are cool, but a modern approach with computer modeling, newer drivers and advanced design the tech has narrowed the gap very significantly in the last 15 years and has pretty much caught up.

That said, Rhythmik make very good subs and you can't go wrong with them. I agree a pair of LVX12s would likely work out really well for op, but his stated budget of $1000 kinda nixes that idea. I am wondering tho, if a single LVX12 would be able to blend well enough with his current sub, but we don't have a lot of info on that one. They likely have similar tuning tho, and both are ported.

I whole heartedly agree with you about the FM8 or L22. I'd pass altogether on the FM8. The L22 I would want 2 of them at a minimum. A single L22 I'm afraid won't cut it, and I wouldn't want to try integrating it with the current ported sub he has now.

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Originally Posted by Qman

Thanks Pogre.
I guess we are back to my original question; which sub under $1,000? What would I gain/lose by going for the ported vs the sealed? I do not need to reproduce the lowest of lows, but I do need balance and punch.

Thanks

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I kind of missed this question. In your budget, the LVX12, and depending on the state of your current sub, a 2nd one down the road.

First I would try experimenting with your current sub, do a fresh calibration and try a higher crossover. If you want more punch, that's happening above 60 hz. If it's still functioning properly I think you might be able to blend the LVX12 to work with it. If it is truly not functioning properly, as in won't play well above 60 hz, then run with the single LVX12 and save up for a 2nd one.

With careful placement and good integration I think you can make a single LVX12 work very well, at least in the general main seating area. A second one will help you widen and balance that sweet spot even better. A single can work very well too tho.

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Originally Posted by Pogre

Servo subs are cool, but a modern approach with computer modeling, newer drivers and advanced design the tech has narrowed the gap very significantly in the last 15 years and has pretty much caught up.

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I have been following the technical reviews of subwoofers reviewed on Audioholics and Data-bass, since they have been doing such technical measurements, rather than previously where there was simply impressions of how it sounds after listening to several different well known audio tracks and such. I agree that the measurements that are taken in such reviews shows only small differences at best between a servo sub and a sub that using DSP.

I do think that there are things that measurements can't capture that make a servo sub superior still though. The best analogy is with ribbon tweeters. I own Sierra 2s for critical listening in one room and CMT 340s for causal listening in the other. There is something about the ribbon tweeter where I can listen at -20 to -15 dB for several hours without fatigue. On a dome tweeter like that of the CMT 340 fatigue sets in for me much earlier at lower volume levels. Looking at the CSD measurements there is not a huge difference between the two tweeters though to explain this. I'm not at all talking bad about the tweeter in the CMT 340. It is far superior to other tweeters where fatigue sets in much earlier still, for me, and at even lower volume levels. From a theoretical standpoint we know that the ribbon tweeter is going to start and stop much more quickly than just about any other kind of tweeter, which partially explains what I am experiencing. But, the measurements are quite similar outside of the a few small resonant frequencies that don't die out quite like the ribbon tweeter. Maybe it is as simple as those few resonant frequencies lingering that aggravates my tinnitus, but I'm not so sure that is the only thing going on here. I don't really care, as I have found the speakers that work for me.

Getting back to subs versus a dsp sub. The servo sub can minimize the standing waves in the cabinet coloring the sound, where dsp does nothing. The servo sub can address unit to unit variation, because nothing can be manufactured exactly the same from one time to the next, there are tolerances on components in the driver, cabinet, even the port. When there is anything about how the signal is being reproduced that differs from what is supposed to be done, it continuously and instantaneously fixes the problem. Another downside of a DSP sub is the flipping back and forth from analog to digital and then back to analog. Something is lost in the signal from each conversion, since that process involves approximation rather than a closed form exact solution. But, a servo sub can avoid the conversion altogether, keeping the signal more accurate.

To my ears switching from my previous dsp sub (designed by Hsu) to a Rythmik servo sub was quite a step up. The dsp sub didn't have the transient response to match my Sierra 2s, where I needed to choose a crossover of 50 to 60Hz to not have the 50 to 80Hz region lose detail. With music this isn't a problem, but with movies there can be huge swings in the output in that region where I'd be worried about damaging the Sierra 2 asking it to play those frequencies at high levels. With a Rythmik sub, I can have that 80Hz crossover and not lose the detail. I'm sure that there are DSP subs that can do better in that 50 to 80Hz region than my previous dsp sub could do, but subwoofers are expensive to return if you hook them up in your room and find that they don't have an improvement in the upper bass region. Several others on this forum have experienced this same phenomenon, so I figured the easiest solution to try out Rythmik's servo subs, and it fixed the problem.

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Originally Posted by N Boros

To my ears switching from my previous dsp sub (designed by Hsu) to a Rythmik servo sub was quite a step up. The dsp sub didn't have the transient response to match my Sierra 2s, where I needed to choose a crossover of 50 to 60Hz to not have the 50 to 80Hz region lose detail. With music this isn't a problem, but with movies there can be huge swings in the output in that region where I'd be worried about damaging the Sierra 2 asking it to play those frequencies at high levels. With a Rythmik sub, I can have that 80Hz crossover and not lose the detail. I'm sure that there are DSP subs that can do better in that 50 to 80Hz region than my previous dsp sub could do, but subwoofers are expensive to return if you hook them up in your room and find that they don't have an improvement in the upper bass region. Several others on this forum have experienced this same phenomenon, so I figured the easiest solution to try out Rythmik's servo subs, and it fixed the problem.

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This is exactly what I experienced, but it started with the Sierra-1.

Hsu.. is considered entry level...imo.

One of the features I was advised to extrapolate from DB...using drivers or subs is how much they compress & destort at certain sweeps and what frequencies they start to stagger. This is often overlooked....nor understood...but we all know the better and more linear the driver measures...the more likely it will behave that way. From my laymen understanding you can take 2 different subs mfg.. all else being equal can exhibit similar numbers at 105db sweep...increase to 110 and after 115... you'll see how the more linear design unit will hold true and the distortion levels remain stress free or composed...the latter will compress and distortion rises into the audible range...in this case you'll need 2or more subs to equal the same clean output as a singular unit which most likely cost more..so in terms of subs....cost is relavent...much like the RAAL comparison above. As mentioned....the servo technology...helps the driver remain composed and within itself....when pushed...:)

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Originally Posted by N Boros

I do think that there are things that measurements can't capture that make a servo sub superior still though. The best analogy is with ribbon tweeters. I own Sierra 2s for critical listening in one room and CMT 340s for causal listening in the other. There is something about the ribbon tweeter where I can listen at -20 to -15 dB for several hours without fatigue. .

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Doesn't Dave have a whole suite of objective measurements that show and explain how and why ribbons are superior performers?

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Originally Posted by billy p

Hsu.. is considered entry level...imo.

One of the features I was advised to extrapolate from DB...using drivers or subs is how much they compress & destort at certain sweeps and what frequencies they start to stagger. This is often overlooked....nor understood...but we all know the better and more linear the driver measures...the more likely it will behave that way. From my laymen understanding you can take 2 different subs mfg.. all else being equal can exhibit similar numbers at 105db sweep...increase to 110 and after 115... you'll see how the more linear design unit will hold true and the distortion levels remain stress free or composed...the latter will compress and distortion rises into the audible range...in this case you'll need 2or more subs to equal the same clean output as a singular unit which most likely cost more..so in terms of subs....cost is relavent...much like the RAAL comparison above. As mentioned....the servo technology...helps the driver remain composed and within itself....when pushed...:)

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I didn't bring up or recommend HSU or any other brand. Tho I do think HSU make great sounding subs... but then so does Rhythmik and that's what op was looking at so I stayed the course and talked about Rhythmik.

If I were to recommend I'd probably go with Monolith's THX subs. For starters the Monolith 15" THX has lower group delay and lower distortion figures than the FV25.

Not that the FV25 is a bad sub or anything. They're fine subwoofers and the distortion and group delay are still well outside the range of human hearing. I don't think it'd have a negative impact on the sound tho, so I'd never recommend against Rhythmik. They make great subs. Thats why my recommendations in this thread were all for Rhythmik subs...

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Originally Posted by billy p

much like the RAAL comparison above.

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And again, there are indeed plenty of objective measurements of RAAL ribbons that explain why so many prefer them. It's not some magic, immeasurable unexplainable mystery...

I'm curious to hear how this turns out. I have completely different circumstances, but a similar goal; improvement in mid-bass hand-off . I'll post separately when I need help; just bumping this one to see if progress was made. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Pogre

And again, there are indeed plenty of objective measurements of RAAL ribbons that explain why so many prefer them. It's not some magic, immeasurable unexplainable mystery...

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I’ve looked at the measurements of both the Sierra 2s and CMT 340s. The only measurements that might explain, which were done for both speakers are the CSD plots. Both speakers die out pretty quickly at or around the 0.58 msec mark. But the lower end tweeter exhibits some resonances between 8kHz and 15kHz that linger for about 3 times as long. They are quite low in level in comparison to the original signal though. I don’t think that this completely explains it. I’m not saying that it is “magic”, but this is the only plot that helps explain it a little bit. The full explanation is most likely that the ribbon tweeter has the advantage in transient response over all frequencies, and there aren’t any of those extra resonances in the ribbon tweeter either. Also, I’ve also heard Dave mention that we won’t hear a ribbon tweeter clipping, like you would with a dome. Perhaps this means that even when pushed hard we don’t hear some of the harshness that we would hear from some dome tweeters. Maybe distortion measurements would show this difference, but we don’t have those to look at.

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Originally Posted by Pogre

I didn't bring up or recommend HSU or any other brand. Tho I do think HSU make great sounding subs... but then so does Rhythmik and that's what op was looking at so I stayed the course and talked about Rhythmik.

If I were to recommend I'd probably go with Monolith's THX subs. For starters the Monolith 15" THX has lower group delay and lower distortion figures than the FV25.

Not that the FV25 is a bad sub or anything. They're fine subwoofers and the distortion and group delay are still well outside the range of human hearing. I don't think it'd have a negative impact on the sound tho, so I'd never recommend against Rhythmik. They make great subs. Thats why my recommendations in this thread were all for Rhythmik subs...

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I only brought up Hsu, since that was my first subwoofer and I recently upgraded to Rythmik and it was quite an upgrade, where the 60 to 80Hz region was clearly handled better with the Rythmik subs.

I too have looked into the Monolith subwoofers, mainly because Audioholics keeps reviewing them and, at least until recently, they seemed to be one subwoofer company seemed unaffected by inflation. In my living room setup, I'm about ready to retire the Hsu subwoofer and upgrade. I've already upgraded in my theater room with Rythmik's. I love the FV15HP's, but my wife didn't want something so large in the living room. I love the price and performance of the Monolith subwoofers and the group delay as you mentioned, but all of the Monolith subs are just massive and heavy. When Audioholics recently did a preview of the ported dual 10 or 12 inch subs, I was excited at the price and performance. Then I looked at the weight and dimensions and the Rythmik FV15HP, as nearly the exact same base, but the Monoprice subs are quite a bit taller and heavier. The Rythmik subs have a slight bit more output from 20 to 40Hz, if I recall, than the dual 12 inch Monolith sub but the two are close outside of that. But the price of the two subs are nearly the same, so I'd still choose the FV15HP over the Monolith M212. I have as larger room, so I definitely want a ported sub, but even the 10 inch ported models from Monoprice are huge. I saw similar trends across the line of Monolith vs. Rythmik. If you don't mind huge and heavy subwoofers, the Monolith subs seem like a reasonable choice, but I think I'm going to end up with a pair of ported Rythmik subs in the living room too.

I've been curious about subwoofers, so I looked at a number of them (even though it doesn't make sense for us).

Monoprice has a new 8 inch THX subwoofer that looks interesting - it's smaller and lighter than you'd expect:

Monolith by Monoprice THX Certified 8in 150-watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

It's reasonably priced, and goes down pretty far, although maybe not as far as some would want. They just posted that they're expecting more in stock in 9/22, which might be too long to wait.

One thing I liked is that they have line level inputs and outputs, with a real crossover, which would be what we'd want with our 2 channel system with older equipment. We'd put it in between our preamp and amp.

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Originally Posted by N Boros

I’ve looked at the measurements of both the Sierra 2s and CMT 340s. The only measurements that might explain, which were done for both speakers are the CSD plots. Both speakers die out pretty quickly at or around the 0.58 msec mark. But the lower end tweeter exhibits some resonances between 8kHz and 15kHz that linger for about 3 times as long. They are quite low in level in comparison to the original signal though. I don’t think that this completely explains it. I’m not saying that it is “magic”, but this is the only plot that helps explain it a little bit. The full explanation is most likely that the ribbon tweeter has the advantage in transient response over all frequencies, and there aren’t any of those extra resonances in the ribbon tweeter either. Also, I’ve also heard Dave mention that we won’t hear a ribbon tweeter clipping, like you would with a dome. Perhaps this means that even when pushed hard we don’t hear some of the harshness that we would hear from some dome tweeters. Maybe distortion measurements would show this difference, but we don’t have those to look at.

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It isn't clipping, it is ringing / breakup modes. All dome tweeters exhibit a rather harsh break-up mode while RAAL ribbons do not.

There are basically 4 characteristics that I attribute to why RAAL's sound so go.

1. They are generally about 1/50th the moving mass of a dome tweeter. They basically accelerate and decelerate instantaneously, a near perfect transient response.

2. Extremely wide and linear horizontal dispersion

3. No break-up modes (as I described above)

4. There is no voice coil, no former, no surround - the only moving part is the resonating diaphragm itself, that combined with the extremely low mass = practically zero stored energy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davef

It isn't clipping, it is ringing / breakup modes. All dome tweeters exhibit a rather harsh break-up mode while RAAL ribbons do not.

There are basically 4 characteristics that I attribute to why RAAL's sound so go.

1. They are generally about 1/50th the moving mass of a dome tweeter. They basically accelerate and decelerate instantaneously, a near perfect transient response.

2. Extremely wide and linear horizontal dispersion

3. No break-up modes (as I described above)

4. There is no voice coil, no former, no surround - the only moving part is the resonating diaphragm itself, that combined with the extremely low mass = practically zero stored energy.

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Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by James

I've been curious about subwoofers, so I looked at a number of them (even though it doesn't make sense for us).

Monoprice has a new 8 inch THX subwoofer that looks interesting - it's smaller and lighter than you'd expect:

Monolith by Monoprice THX Certified 8in 150-watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com

It's reasonably priced, and goes down pretty far, although maybe not as far as some would want. They just posted that they're expecting more in stock in 9/22, which might be too long to wait.

One thing I liked is that they have line level inputs and outputs, with a real crossover, which would be what we'd want with our 2 channel system with older equipment. We'd put it in between our preamp and amp.

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For me that would be a step down in performance. I have an Outlaw LFM-1 subwoofer, which has a 300 or 350 Watt amplifier and a 12 inch driver. I'm looking for a similarly sized ported model with a 12 inch driver, but one that has better detail in the 60 to 80 Hz range, where the Outlaw sub is lacking. I'll probably just go with a Rythmik LVX12 at some point. I'm also kind of waiting for this subwoofer to die, but those Bash amps last forever. The subwoofer is 19 years old at this point and still works great.

One suggestion for you is the Rythmik L12. It is a little bit more money that the subwoofer that you mentioned, but I would expect quite a big setup in performance. Still pretty compact too, where it is just about a 14 inch cube.

Sure, it doesn't go down as low as yours - I can understand that.

We're not really in the market for a sub, I'm just curious about a lot of audio stuff :-) Our Towers go low enough for us (and I don't hear some of the bottom end as it is, although my wife does), and evenly.

But thanks for that suggestion - it looks like a nice sub for music to me, which is most of my listening.

I can attest that the L12 does indeed work very well with music. For my tastes and room size, it is no slouch even with movies. It cannot match the sheer output of a ported sub, but it has enough power and extention to rattle doors, windows and loose stuff on shelves 😁.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N Boros

I too have looked into the Monolith subwoofers, mainly because Audioholics keeps reviewing them and, at least until recently, they seemed to be one subwoofer company seemed unaffected by inflation. In my living room setup, I'm about ready to retire the Hsu subwoofer and upgrade. I've already upgraded in my theater room with Rythmik's. I love the FV15HP's, but my wife didn't want something so large in the living room. I love the price and performance of the Monolith subwoofers and the group delay as you mentioned, but all of the Monolith subs are just massive and heavy. When Audioholics recently did a preview of the ported dual 10 or 12 inch subs, I was excited at the price and performance. Then I looked at the weight and dimensions and the Rythmik FV15HP, as nearly the exact same base, but the Monoprice subs are quite a bit taller and heavier. The Rythmik subs have a slight bit more output from 20 to 40Hz, if I recall, than the dual 12 inch Monolith sub but the two are close outside of that. But the price of the two subs are nearly the same, so I'd still choose the FV15HP over the Monolith M212. I have as larger room, so I definitely want a ported sub, but even the 10 inch ported models from Monoprice are huge. I saw similar trends across the line of Monolith vs. Rythmik. If you don't mind huge and heavy subwoofers, the Monolith subs seem like a reasonable choice, but I think I'm going to end up with a pair of ported Rythmik subs in the living room too.

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I'd say that's the biggest knock with Monoprice. Their subs are huge and heavy, but they do perform.

I have absolutely nothing against Rhythmik. They're legit and make great subwoofers. I could be perfectly happy with a pair FV15HPs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davef

It isn't clipping, it is ringing / breakup modes. All dome tweeters exhibit a rather harsh break-up mode while RAAL ribbons do not.

There are basically 4 characteristics that I attribute to why RAAL's sound so go.

1. They are generally about 1/50th the moving mass of a dome tweeter. They basically accelerate and decelerate instantaneously, a near perfect transient response.

2. Extremely wide and linear horizontal dispersion

3. No break-up modes (as I described above)

4. There is no voice coil, no former, no surround - the only moving part is the resonating diaphragm itself, that combined with the extremely low mass = practically zero stored energy.

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Right, I've pored over your comparisons between the RAAL and the NrT tweeter and think you make a great objective case for the reasons behind some of the magic of the RAALs. Like everything you mention in this post. There are definitely measurable attributes that explain why they're so preferred.

Well i finally sold some stuff and was able to get the E15. Pretty pleased so far.