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Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I just took the leap to an Anthem AVM 60 processor. The 7 channels on the floor will consist of 4 RAAL equipped towers, RAAL Horizon center, and S2s in the rear. Are S2s or Lunas viable as height speakers, or would the increased vertical dispersion of a dome style be better in this particular application?
Some time back I tried S1s with NRT tweets as surrounds in a 5.1 configuration. I didn't like the mismatch and converted to S2s. I don't want to buy twice, will it take ribbons as heights to properly integrate with the rest? I'm thinking Lunas with swivel mounts for their diminutive size/weight.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Congrats on the AVM60..
Personally, I run HTM200's as heights with RAALs on the 5 floor channels (5.2.4) with an MRX720. I think they sound fine with movies. I don't listen to music in multichannel so can't comment there. Plus, for me, the added cost for ribbon heights versus the "ambient" sounds from the heights & my limited movie viewing didn't make alot of sense $$-wise. That said, no reason you couldn't use the Luna's as heights with a swivel mount (side to side & up/down) to adjust to suit.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I have a fairly extensive collection of multi-channel music, as well as Blu-Ray concerts. I will likely configure a mode for that type of material to a 5.1 or 7.1 setup. I must say that a well executed multi-channel experience can be quite engaging.
All that aside, I'm still wondering if the mismatch of a dome tweeter on the height speakers will present as much of a mismatch in their role as the NRTs did as surround speakers. To be fair, the NRTs sound fabulous in their own right, but while listening to multi-channel music that panned front to back the mismatch was obvious, the metallic sparkle that the ribbons reproduce is astonishing to me. I'm not sure the same issue would present itself in the course of a movie encoded with Atmos content, as I've no experience with the format, and the reason I'm seeking guidance in this regard.
I think the cost of the ribbon heights would not make sense should they not provide a noticeable difference, I do tend to be a bit on the OCD side when it comes to the sound system.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
petmotel
I have a fairly extensive collection of multi-channel music, as well as Blu-Ray concerts. I will likely configure a mode for that type of material to a 5.1 or 7.1 setup. I must say that a well executed multi-channel experience can be quite engaging.
All that aside, I'm still wondering if the mismatch of a dome tweeter on the height speakers will present as much of a mismatch in their role as the NRTs did as surround speakers. To be fair, the NRTs sound fabulous in their own right, but while listening to multi-channel music that panned front to back the mismatch was obvious, the metallic sparkle that the ribbons reproduce is astonishing to me. I'm not sure the same issue would present itself in the course of a movie encoded with Atmos content, as I've no experience with the format, and the reason I'm seeking guidance in this regard.
I think the cost of the ribbon heights would not make sense should they not provide a noticeable difference, I do tend to be a bit on the OCD side when it comes to the sound system.
Jay
I think HTM-200s are perfectly fine for Atmos heights along with ribbon mains and surrounds. Atmos makes my whole system sound more seamless. Even with non-Atmos movies it feels like sound effects travel right through the middle of the room.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
natetg57
I think HTM-200s are perfectly fine for Atmos heights along with ribbon mains and surrounds. Atmos makes my whole system sound more seamless. Even with non-Atmos movies it feels like sound effects travel right through the middle of the room.
So let's say there is a scene where a glass dome shatters and the glass pieces rain to the ground and hit a concrete floor, would those sounds not pan from the heights to the floor? Would the transition from the heights to ground level be seamless?
I appreciate any and all input, maybe I'm overthinking this, when it comes to theater sound one can't be too careful LOL! Seriously, with the economy being what it is today, I need to be as practical as it's possible for me to be, probably not too high of a bar.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
petmotel
So let's say there is a scene where a glass dome shatters and the glass pieces rain to the ground and hit a concrete floor, would those sounds not pan from the heights to the floor? Would the transition from the heights to ground level be seamless?
I appreciate any and all input, maybe I'm overthinking this, when it comes to theater sound one can't be too careful LOL! Seriously, with the economy being what it is today, I need to be as practical as it's possible for me to be, probably not too high of a bar.
Jay
I don't think our hearing is as discerning either upwards or backwards, so I would say, no, I don't think you would notice a transition going from domes to ribbons. I'm using HTM-200s as my rear heights and Polk OWM3s as my front heights. My front three are Sierra-2EX and my surrounds are Luna's. Even the cheap Polks don't draw any attention to themselves...that I notice anyways. I'm just happy if the mixing guys put stuff for the heights to play. A Quiet Place was a good Atmos demo movie.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Many have suggested that top speakers, on-ceiling or in-ceiling, give a more convincing overhead experience. If you have tall ceilings I guess you can make the case for front heights. The problem with trying to put Lunas on the ceiling, is that even if you are okay with mounting such a speaker on the ceiling, they have wide dispersion in one direction and narrow in the other. This is not really what you are looking for with an overhead speaker. Honestly an in ceiling speaker would be best for the overhead Atmos position. Ascend recommends Sonance, for such a speaker.
I have cathedral ceilings in my living room, where I think that front height speakers might be okay. They go up to a 10 foot peak on the middle. Though if I were to go with Atmos in that room I would still want on-ceiling or in-ceiling speakers, to give the most convincing overhead experience. In my theater room the ceiling height is nowhere near that high for front and rear heights to work, so I went with in-ceiling overhead speakers. To be honest the overhead effect is subtle. I don’t hear any difference in timbre, between the Sonance speakers and my fronts with the Raal ribbon tweeter. Maybe that will chance if I can get a rough carpenter lined up this summer to turn it into a dedicated room where I also get some acoustical treatments though. Having a dedicated room should lower the noise floor and the room treatments should help absorb and diffuse some the sounds to allow the brain to better understand location and to be able to pick out detail better too, hopefully.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
From what I've read, agree that top (on or in ceiling) give the best overhead experience. High walls aren't quite as good but maybe 85-90% of the way there. Ceilings in my listening area are trayed, from about 10' to 13', and not really a good spot for on/in ceiling so I went with top of the front & rear walls, angled downwards. Works fine for me.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I'm currently in an ancient farmhouse in Illinois, but will be relocating to much nicer accommodations in Colorado. The space the theater will be in is a converted garage with an open beam ceiling, so in ceiling speakers won't work.
I looked at the Sonance stuff just for kicks, they seem pretty darn proud of their products, confirming what we have all come to appreciate, that being what a superb value Ascend products represent. I was impressed with the Sonance invisible in walls. Fully taped, textured, and painted, when they say invisible they MEAN it! I'd sure be interested in hearing a full complement of those!
It's quite an interesting phenomenon I've seen time and again that occurs on internet forums, A member poses a question, gets a fairly consistent consensus, and then totally disregards the excellent advice, and then they go ahead with what they planned on in the first place! At this point I'm inclined to try the HTM 200s. I'd be less than honest to say I'm not still a bit conflicted.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
If your hearing noticed a discernable difference going from the NRT to the RAAL ribbons, then I'd suggest sticking with the Lunas. They are notably pricier for surrounds and height speakers, but if your preference is going the all ribbon route, then that would be the best way to go. I enjoy their sound quality and they look great.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
racrawford65
From what I've read, agree that top (on or in ceiling) give the best overhead experience. High walls aren't quite as good but maybe 85-90% of the way there. Ceilings in my listening area are trayed, from about 10' to 13', and not really a good spot for on/in ceiling so I went with top of the front & rear walls, angled downwards. Works fine for me.
That makes a lot of sense. I have a more traditional cathedral ceiling when it is 8 ft on the left and right walls and then goes to a 10 ft peak in the middle of the room. I think in my case if I go with atmos speakers in that room, that inceiling speakers would be fine, just slightly wider than if the ceiling were flat. But I just blew 20 inches of insulation in the attic, so I don’t want to mess with going up there in that.
So I was thinking about getting some SVS Prime Elevation speakers, to flush mount on the ceiling. The angle of the speakers would just about counteract the angle of the ceiling were they would pretty much be firing straight down. I could get that super flat speaker wire that you can paint right over, so that I don’t have to go into the attic running wire. The ceiling has textured paint though, so I’ll likely wait until we paint the house to do this. It is nice that there are so many options out there.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I'd recommend buying designs with a pivoting tweeter...it should help in positioning sound onto desired locations or seating area. I've been extremely happy with my MA inwalls...moving from a traditional mounted monitor and bracket. I'd also consider getting enclosed speaker with minimum 8" mids...you'll get a little more fuller sound since these type of speakers are generally void of reproducing or excelling at mid bass frequencies. Otherwise they are easy to install except for doing a clean install through ceiling etc.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I think I have a suggestion for Dave's next big adventure. Not sure I can pull the trigger on a non-Ascend product for Atmos speakers, time for my favorite speaker designer to start thinking outside of the box. I simply ask for something that matches/plays nice with RAAL tweeters, has the dispersion characteristics needed for the application, and is easy to mount in ceiling or an acoustic enclosure. Cakewalk for a guy like Dave don't you agree?
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I've been looking at a couple of possible contenders, Monitor Audio CP-CT380IDC, or SONANCE VP89R,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/11387745921...4AAOSwA~ddcSk7
https://www.ebay.com/itm/12329752308...MAAOSwTMxbabT6
both probably WAY more than what I really need, but you know.......
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I've echoed that sentiment in the past but I know Dave usually recommends Sonance iirc...they have an office just down the road from Ascend head quarters... perhaps a collaborative effort...lol.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Emotiva recently released this:
https://emotiva.com/products/airmoti...udspeaker-pair
Not cheap but their folded tweeter may integrate well with Ascend's RAAL.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Those Emotiva's aren't that expensive, IMO...299/pair. A bit lower in efficiency, though, then I like.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
for the Emotiva folded ribbon, I am not sure if the dispersion of the tweeter is idea, or if it would be any better match than in tonality than another Ascend speaker.
I'm using HTM-200SE's for my surrounds along with the Sierra-2's upfront, and while I would like to have RAALs in the surrounds, the 200SE's do a very good job.
Although I understand the sentiment for wanting in-walls, out of the many systems I have heard (Ascend and non-Ascend), there was only one that I thought had implemented in-walls well. That was an all around Triad system.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MusicHead
Those look interesting but with the resonating diaphragm being 25mm x 25mm, the dispersion characteristics (a major performance benefit of the RAAL) will be limited. Likely won't matter all that much being positioned to fire downwards from the ceiling.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
racrawford65
Those Emotiva's aren't that expensive, IMO...299/pair. A bit lower in efficiency, though, then I like.
Didn't realize the price was for a pair! 🥴
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
No worries, MusicHead. I wish there was consistency in speaker list pricing - some are per pair, some are per speaker.
For me, the HTM200's work great for ATMOS (mounted high on wall) and blend quite well with my bed speakers (Towers with RAAL, Luna Duo Center, and S2 surrounds).
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I spoke at length with Bernie at the "Audio Store" which is where the AVM was purchased. He, as many here have suggested, advised timbre matching the height speakers is pretty much unnecessary. He suggested that something with capable output (at least 6" woofers) would be helpful, I suppose in a large theater room played at reference, output could be a significant factor, although no one here has made mention of that.
I've still not settled on what to get, but I'm not locked in to RAAL tweeters at this point. Undoubtedly, an enclosed speaker will best suit my application where they will not be mounted in a drywall ceiling. The good part is that I can look at relatively inexpensive bookshelf type speakers.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
https://www.svsound.com/products/pri...nt=26537028038
Anyone have any experience with the SVS speakers in the above link? At $250 a pop for the gloss white, these come with a wall mounting bracket, they look decent, and I love my SVS sub. Not crazy about an aluminum dome tweeter, I had some metal domes in my car quite a long time ago, they were very harsh.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Read a review by Mark Henninger on AVS forum, I wonder if he's ever met a product he didn't like? Bit of a conflict of interest when your review includes products from site sponsors.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/svs...#post-53068402
Read a more neutral/honest review: http://noaudiophile.com/SVS_Prime_Bookshelf/ which told me what I would/should expect from these speakers.
I hope I'm not going to kick myself in the arse, went ahead and ordered 4 of these rascals. My brain hurts, I'm just tired of thinking about it. Thank goodness for Anthem ARC, hopefully it will make these speakers bearable. I will post back in due time, after I've spent time with them.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
petmotel
https://www.svsound.com/products/pri...nt=26537028038
Anyone have any experience with the SVS speakers in the above link? At $250 a pop for the gloss white, these come with a wall mounting bracket, they look decent, and I love my SVS sub. Not crazy about an aluminum dome tweeter, I had some metal domes in my car quite a long time ago, they were very harsh.
Jay
What do you see as the advantage of these over the HTM-200SE?
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
My guess is they have a bracket, mount flat to the wall and pre-angled down. I had looked at these as an ATMOS option some time ago for that reason and passed - went with the HTM200SE's.
petmotel - I have an Anthem as well. Personally, I wouldn't rely on ARC (or any other RC) to make speakers bearable. Hopefully, there is a trial period.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
curtis
What do you see as the advantage of these over the HTM-200SE?
Funny you should ask that, I asked myself that very question after I ordered them. Strictly aesthetics and mounting solution, if the aluminum dome is too harsh, I will replace with 200s.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
petmotel
Funny you should ask that, I asked myself that very question after I ordered them. Strictly aesthetics and mounting solution, if the aluminum dome is too harsh, I will replace with 200s.
Got it.
I would have given the timbre match (they sound pretty seamless as surrounds with my Sierra-2's) and the SEAS tweeter the nod.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
racrawford65
petmotel - I have an Anthem as well. Personally, I wouldn't rely on ARC (or any other RC) to make speakers bearable. Hopefully, there is a trial period.
ditto - and I have an AVM60
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I had Energy RCs with aluminum domes...if anything with most content they sounded recessed or laid back...never harsh. I reckon it depends on several variables... design and room acoustics...come to mind.
My mains being soft dome...made things a bit simpler but even within the same material it could be cumbersome from a design stand point to find a happy medium. Essentially I looked at proven architectural design from mfg like paradigm, PSB, Focal and MA....looking at the specs and sensitivity of each design....for surround or moreso Atmos implementation....I don't think you'd not find a suitable design for this application...from any of the listed above...with this hobby we often obsess over trivial things.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
billy p
I had Energy RCs with aluminum domes...if anything with most content they sounded recessed or laid back...never harsh. I reckon it depends on several variables... design and room acoustics...come to mind.
My mains being soft dome...made things a bit simpler but even within the same material it could be cumbersome from a design stand point to find a happy medium. Essentially I looked at proven architectural design from mfg like paradigm, PSB, Focal and MA....looking at the specs and sensitivity of each design....for surround or moreso Atmos implementation....I don't think you'd not find a suitable design for this application...from any of the listed above...with this hobby we often obsess over trivial things.
I would be inclined to agree with your assessment were it not for the fact that I listen to a LOT of multi-channel music, some of which creative mixers like to pan things like bell sounds or vibraphone tones around the room. In these circumstances even the mismatch between the RAAL ribbon equipped Towers, and NRT equipped Sierras was not insignificant. That being said, it's my understanding that Atmos height speakers don't integrate that directly with the floor level sounds.
I have decided that should the SVS heights not be to my liking, I will custom order Lunas in matte white with white grilles, and be done with compromise.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I received the new height speakers today, since they are not Ascends I won't be offering much here except to say they are very nice looking, and I haven't found the tweeter to be harsh at all.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I've spent time reading through this forum to get more insight into the subject of this thread and have come up with a wealth of older info.
FirstReflect commented: Naturally, anyone asking about Atmos speakers on this message board is probably concerned about timbre match and having a seamless and coherent sound field all around and above them. But I've gotta tell ya, I'm about as overly critical as anyone can get on that front, and having perfectly matching overhead or upward-firing speakers hasn't mattered even a little bit to me. The sounds that are up there basically only come in two varieties: ambient, diffuse effects that you can only notice by switching back and forth between Atmos and non-Atmos, and discrete, pin-point sounds that are basically just there to make you go, "golly! That came from right above me!"
In either case, a perfect timbre match to your Front speakers just doesn't matter, IMO. I found that to be the case with the "old school" Front Height speakers back when we were using Dolby Pro Logic IIz or DTS Neo:X upmixing, and I find that to still be the case with Atmos overhead speakers. I believe that part of it is that we humans just aren't that good at hearing sounds coming from above us to begin with, and part of it is that the sounds being put up there by the mixers are, like I said, either just ambience, or "whiz, bang" type of effect.
When asked if Ascend was interested in Atmos speakers, Dave F. responded: yes, we are certainly interested but still in the process of evaluation and curiosity about other soon to be released competing formats. There are some characteristics in the Atmos specs that don't make sense from the acoustic science aspect. One is the fact that they call for wide dispersion from the upward firing modules. To properly reflect (bounce) off the ceiling, a more directional speaker would be much more beneficial. The more sound that is directed towards the ceiling and less into the room, the less wave interference will occur with the reflected sound off the ceiling meeting the direct-sound from the speaker.
In some regards, Atmos goes against much of the theories that have been studied and learned for the delivery of accurate sound. That certainly doesn't mean we will avoid it, but I have much experience over the last 3 decades with regard to similar new "specs" for home theater that also presented contrary theories to the delivery of accurate sound, and these eventually died out with consumers always returning to accuracy...
I think the above comments pretty much answer why we aren't going to see specific Atmos height solutions from Ascend. I surely understand the reasoning, and why this application is in conflict with Dave's design philosophies.
Edit: I'm really happy I didn't spend the money for a ribbon height solution, by all accounts it would have been an unnecessary expense.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Good post, Jay.
I'm in the same camp as you with regards to timbre matching ATMOS speakers - not critical IMO. (I'm using HTM200's as ATMOS - high wall mounted). Sounds fine to me. As you noted, more for ambience or special effects (like planes flying over). I like what ATMOS adds.
My guess is they weren't worried about acoustical science, but in creating another market to sell more speakers, processors, and movies :-)
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
racrawford65
Good post, Jay.
I'm in the same camp as you with regards to timbre matching ATMOS speakers - not critical IMO. (I'm using HTM200's as ATMOS - high wall mounted). Sounds fine to me. As you noted, more for ambience or special effects (like planes flying over). I like what ATMOS adds.
My guess is they weren't worried about acoustical science, but in creating another market to sell more speakers, processors, and movies :-)
Product marketing surely plays a huge role in selling "the next big thing" I didn't see the need for 4K until they bundled HDR with the format. The expanded color palette along with my LG OLED certainly validates the format for me.
Glad many here have mentioned they like the Atmos effects, I'd have been sick to have spent what I have and not enjoy the results.
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
I made the move to 4K then ATMOS starting in 2016. I love my LG OLED 65E6P - 2016 model, so 3D as well. The 3D is excellent and the passive glasses are nice - step up from my previous Panny. Too bad it's gone away -- may have caught on better if it was as good when first came out.
I'll pass on 8K, though...at least for now. Thinking my next big AV purchase will be a Degritter ultrasonic LP cleaning machine.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Love my LG OLED too! 65C7
Until my girlfriend heard my soundsystem and saw the TV, she wouldn't have bought into either of them.
Now she is talking about a bigger OLED when we get our new place. I have to get her thinking the same way about the soundsystem, but that will take a little more work.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
curtis
Love my LG OLED too! 65C7
Until my girlfriend heard my soundsystem and saw the TV, she wouldn't have bought into either of them.
Now she is talking about a bigger OLED when we get our new place. I have to get her thinking the same way about the soundsystem, but that will take a little more work.
I think experiencing an OLED Panel TV can be correlated to hearing an Ascend RAAL speaker. No going back if you have!
Jay
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
petmotel
I think experiencing an OLED Panel TV can be correlated to hearing an Ascend RAAL speaker. No going back if you have!
When I was getting ready to buy the OLED, she read an article which pretty much said "if you get an OLED TV, it will ruin you for all other TVs". I need to find a article like that for Ascend speakers.
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Re: Atmos height speakers for a system that uses RAAL tweeters.
We must all have similar taste....I also enjoy my LG 65C8. Also planning to finish my bonus room HT with atmos using 340SE across the front and 200s for everything else.