L12 or F12??!

I'm looking to upgrade my Axiom 12" ported sub (in a 2.1 Stereo setup with the Sierra-2EX) to a couple of Rythmik 12 Servos! I have placement space behind each 2EX stand, thus either the L12 or the F12 will fit into this new 2.2 stereo setup. With my dedicated sudo-near-field 90sf 100% music listening room, I don't really have any other options. :(

Two of either (L12 or F12) will be an overkill in this smaller environment (no problem for me...love orchestral and pipe organ genre), but since it is dedicated for just "Music", curious if going the double F12 route would be the best way to go...opinions and experiences welcome! :)

Ted

Have you treated the room? Since it is dedicated to music, I would look into finding out what the acoustic issues of the room are, try to take care of them with treatments/placement, and then go from there.

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Originally Posted by curtis

Have you treated the room? Since it is dedicated to music, I would look into finding out what the acoustic issues of the room are, try to take care of them with treatments/placement, and then go from there.

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Thanks Curtis!

Last year I had 4 -2ft sq. by 2" deep GIK acoustic absorption/reflection panels in an attempt to "improve" my listening position response. After 30-days of many various set-ups and detailed listening sessions, I've discovered my listening room doesn't present any severe acoustic issues (to my ears). Actually, most treatment set ups robbed the live detail/focus of the recording or reduced and collapsed the openness/ambience of the soundstage venues. Seems I already have a well balanced bottom to top presentation in my current listening room!

So why change what I already have? Well, my stereo components are stacked on top my current 12" sub (see pic) and I want to install them in a small audio rack instead (between the Sierra-2EX). Going with 2-subs would allow me to possibly achieve even better imaging and take the low end response down to 14Hz! Currently, I'm very satisfied with the current sub's musical performance, but can imagine overall improvements (sound wise and aesthetics) by going to a 2.2 stereo configuration!?!:cool:

Ted

Attachment 2055

Ted, I went through this exercise earlier this year.

I have Sierra-2EX's. I had a single Ryhtmik F12 that I had been using for years without any complaints.....awesome sub!

Last year, with all the time home, I decided to build some corner bass traps. I also have (4) DIY acoustic panels..... 2" thick Owens-Corning 703 in 2' x 4' frames.

I placed the sub next to the left speaker, same distance to my listening position. I did not have any type of room correction in my Parasound preamp so equidistant placement was the cure.

Everything sounded fantastic, no complaints. Fast-forward to 2021. I started watching Youtube vids of a few guys who cured some bass response issues by implementing multiple subs along with a MiniDSP 2X4 HD. Using REW software with a UMIK-1 they were able to see exactly what was going on with their response. By locating the subs optimally, using REW measurements to guide them through settings in the MiniDSP, they were able to boost bass output using the multiple subs. Once the response was boosted to where any dips were still high enough above flat, they EQ'd all the peaks down to where the boosted dips were and created a slightly rising response from around 100hz to 30hz of 10db (You never want to boost more than that). So, I purchased a MiniDSP and UMIK-1, and installed the free REW software on a laptop and followed their video. Once I found I could not fix a fairly big dip from 50 to 80hz, I decided to pick up a 2nd F12. After I went through the set up process (measurements.....tweak settings......measurements.......tweak.......measu re....rinse.....repeat) I was amazed at the results. Bass is super clean, detailed, powerful. Seemingly endless headroom, though I'm sure it has a limit.

So that is what I'd suggest. If you haven't done so, take room measurements of what your system is doing. Only then can you make an educated move to the next step.

Ed - which youtube videos? Home theater gurus have some really good ones on using miniDSP with multiple subs. If yours were different, could you post a link (if still have it).

Good suggestion to take measurements using REW (free) and a Umik mic (~100) to evaluate room response. miniDSP is also great, especially for integrating multiple subs. Based on what you find out, could even use it to help smooth out bass with the one sub. Bit of learning curve with REW, though.

The 2x4 HD is a great unit. I used one for a few years but recently moved to the 10x10HD, after adding a dedicated preamp (needed more inputs). I ran the AVR LFE out to one input, then outputs to each of my subs (3) LFE in's - tailored to movies. I ran l/r line out 2 from preamp to two different inputs, then outputs to the line in of 2 (of 3) subs for 2 channel music. Thought about also running the l/r line out 1 (front left / right mains) to the miniDSP to maybe improve integration. Still debating as mostly vinyl and don't really want AD/DA conversions.

Another really good device, and automated, is the dspeaker 8033S-ii (for subs) or Antimode (for subs or mains+sub). Currently, I'm trying out the 8033 in my 2 channel system (and just using Anthem ARC for movies). It sounds very good. Did a really good job flattening bass response (did REW measurements with the 8033 engaged and bypassed).

Yes, home theater gurus has some good ones. The other guy is home theater gamer.

Yes, steep learning curve, but the videos give you a good start.

thanks, Ed.
Agree that the videos are really great - I used the HT Gurus ones (ep 7, I think, in particular) when I started with REW/miniDSP.
Robert

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Originally Posted by Mag_Neato

...Bass is super clean, detailed, powerful. Seemingly endless headroom, though I'm sure it has a limit....So that is what I'd suggest. If you haven't done so, take room measurements of what your system is doing. Only then can you make an educated move to the next step.

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Ed & Robert,

Appreciate sharing of your experiences on bass management! I never got into any of the automatic digital evaluation/equalization sources for room management (not sure I ever will). Being an older audiophile, I just use my analog ears (still testing well below the 20db normal human hearing), test CD's (20Hz-20KHz sweeps) and a wide genre of very familiar music! To my sweep spot ears, there is virtually no peaks/nulls in the full range response (till it gets beyond 15kHz, my current upper hearing limits), thus no reason for any room equalization! Guess you could qualify my music playback achievements as the old fashion "SWAG" methodology, with a "KISS" of attitude! ;)

Ed, your descriptions, "super clean, detailed, powerful, seemingly endless headroom" is what I have Now with my current single sub in my 990cf listening room! There really is nothing I Need to improve what I have in musical bass (tonality, slam, speed, tightness, accuracy, depth...it's all there), but Want to make a Visual set-up change in my very small dedicated music room. This will dictate "2" smaller subs (one behind each S-2EX) and a small -center channel placed- equipment rack. Again, all for mostly Aesthetic reasons (and hopefully keeping the sub performance I already have)! :rolleyes:

My question remains, should I get the L12's or the F12's? :confused:

Ted

Haven't heard both. I have dual E15's in my 2 channel system. I preferred the Al cone, so the F12 if I were going with 12's. The amp on the F12 looks like it has a bit more connection flexibility and digs a bit deeper.

That said, if you haven't already, talk with Dina or Dave at Ascend or Brian/Enrico at Rythmik. You may also want to ask on the AVS Rythmik thread - Enrico or Brian might respond there, as well.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/off...#post-60799306

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Originally Posted by racrawford65

Haven't heard both. I have dual E15's in my 2 channel system. I preferred the Al cone, so the F12 if I were going with 12's. The amp on the F12 looks like it has a bit more connection flexibility and digs a bit deeper.

That said, if you haven't already, talk with Dina or Dave at Ascend or Brian/Enrico at Rythmik. You may also want to ask on the AVS Rythmik thread - Enrico or Brian might respond there, as well.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/off...#post-60799306

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Agreed! My Axiom has a 12" aluminum cone, thus one of the reasons I'm leaning toward the F12 (+ the deeper sub-audible bass response)! ;)

I've spoken to Brian at Rythmik and he agrees that either will be over-kill in my small room! However, Dave understands my listening preferences and set-up situation, so I'll also touch "bass" with him in the early evening! :o

Ted

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Originally Posted by theophile

Ed & Robert,

Appreciate sharing of your experiences on bass management! I never got into any of the automatic digital evaluation/equalization sources for room management (not sure I ever will). Being an older audiophile, I just use my analog ears (still testing well below the 20db normal human hearing), test CD's (20Hz-20KHz sweeps) and a wide genre of very familiar music! To my sweep spot ears, there is virtually no peaks/nulls in the full range response (till it gets beyond 15kHz, my current upper hearing limits), thus no reason for any room equalization! Guess you could qualify my music playback achievements as the old fashion "SWAG" methodology, with a "KISS" of attitude! ;)

Ed, your descriptions, "super clean, detailed, powerful, seemingly endless headroom" is what I have Now with my current single sub in my 990cf listening room! There really is nothing I Need to improve what I have in musical bass (tonality, slam, speed, tightness, accuracy, depth...it's all there), but Want to make a Visual set-up change in my very small dedicated music room. This will dictate "2" smaller subs (one behind each S-2EX) and a small -center channel placed- equipment rack. Again, all for mostly Aesthetic reasons (and hopefully keeping the sub performance I already have)! :rolleyes:

My question remains, should I get the L12's or the F12's? :confused:

Ted

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I hear you! I had what I considered tight, tuneful, powerful bass with just the 1 sub as well. It wasn't until I measured the response that I discovered a huge dip. Never knew it was missing because I never had it. I agree that from 80hz & up my frequency response looks pretty darn good. Bass is a different animal when it comes to room interaction and really, most of the time, needs correction. Once I was able to identify what was actually going on in my room, I was able to correct for it. By boosting bass output with multiple subs, I was able to raise those dips enough to allow me to then create an EQ curve in REW that cut out the nasty peaks that muddy bass detail and speed. I never expected the results after doing that to make such a big difference.

I understand being happy with what you have. You will be richer and happier if you don't worry about improving it. The pitfall of this hobby!

I'd at least recommend trying to take measurements of what's going on in your room, just as a baseline.

Just realized I did not try to answer your question regarding which sub to get.

I've never listened to the L12. If I did not already have (1) F12, I probably would have got 2 L12's just for budgetary reasons. I think with (2) L12's you will have plenty of output. Keep in mind, the F12 digs to 14Hz while the L12 is rated to 18Hz at the -3db point.

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Originally Posted by Mag_Neato

Just realized I did not try to answer your question regarding which sub to get.

I've never listened to the L12. If I did not already have (1) F12, I probably would have got 2 L12's just for budgetary reasons. I think with (2) L12's you will have plenty of output. Keep in mind, the F12 digs to 14Hz while the L12 is rated to 18Hz at the -3db point.

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Ed,

I've no doubt that either two sets (2-L12's or 2-F12's) will have way more output in my small room than I'll ever use! Musicality is my main focus and goal and if I can maintain that criteria with the budget minded L12's, than that'll be my route! However, if the F12's will be more musical, then I'm willing to absorb that additional investment!! :cool:

Thanks for the link, Robert...have reposted my question HERE!

Ted

no worries, Ted. I saw that you posted there and already have several replies / opinions (and at least one more option to consider). :)

Good luck with your decision and let us know what you chose. I know it's difficult - I went through the same process with my E15's...versus F15s..versus F18s. I knew I wanted sealed as I believe they are more musical (although the Rythmik ported from what I've read are very musical, as well). Weight / size were important, as well -- something I could move easily myself (not as young as I used to be). I do wish I had bought them at the same time - the standard amp on the current iteration is different than my original. Not a big deal (except for the OCD in me). Maybe I'll get a 3rd - use the two newest in the front for music, put the 3rd behind my seat for additional tactile feel during the occasional movie,

I have owned a L12 for a few years now, together with a pair of CMT-340SE as my mains, crossed at 80Hz and driven by an Emotiva Fusion 8100 AVR, in a 5.1 configuration.
I wanted a "music first" system that had also decent performances for movies, and I believe to have achieved that goal.
The system is in the family room, hardly optimized, but thanks to carpet, rugs, a very stuffed couch and the mains placed a few feet away from the side walls, it sounds great to my ears.
The room is approximately 18x14, with speakers on one of the long sides, with L and R mains spaced about 8' and listening distance is around 10'.
The L12 is positioned slightly to the right of the right main.
Despite the room having two openings, to the left of the left speaker and to the right of the right speaker (to kitchen and front door foyer respectively) and the modest power of the Emotiva, the 340s sensitivity and the L12 power and extension make up for that quite well.
What I really like of the L12 is that it does not "fake it". It seamlessly extends the low frequency range, it plays deep if there is content down there, otherwise it does not intrude.
It is fantastic with music and when I watch a movie I bump the gain by 3dB with the sub trim of the AVR remote to add a bit more bite.
As mentioned by another poster, the L12 goes down to 18Hz at the -3dB point and I have measured audible output down to ~15Hz. One of the advantages of a sealed sub is that it gracefully slopes down as it reaches the limit of its frequency response.
You won't be left wanting by the L12 for music. For movies, it may not have the brute force output of a larger, ported sub, but if the LFE channel has content down in the 15-20Hz range you will ear and feel it 😄.
Having two L12 is more about smoothing response than adding power, although the additional 3dB of output can come handy, especially in the form or more headroom and less strain on each sub.

Thanks to everyone for their "Sub Experience/Suggestions" input! No doubt, the Rythmik sealed Servo Subs would have been my next route, but believe I just created another solution that works for me with what I already have...See HERE! :cool:

Ted