Who is JR? And what do you mean mass loaded? You mean like a passive radiator?
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No to the latter and...I linked Data-Bass...so the JR is Josh Ricci....lol.
Mass in this case would be size and weight...thou I can understand and appreciate how Dave and Brian share the same common design principles & philosophies. I like and use Data-Base for baseline testing...a lot of folks do...:)
I know what mass is. Mass loading usually refers to adding additional mass to a speaker for tuning purposes or reducing vibration.
I'm familiar with Data Bass. The Rythmik FV15HP did quite well in their tests.
I believe when most people refer to the "speed" of a speaker or a subwoofer, they are unknowingly referring to transient response. They do not mean how "fast" the woofer is moving or how fast it can move, but how quickly that woofer can come to a full stop and start. This is no myth or fallacy, and is easily measured and is often quite audible. Low mass drivers in combination with low inductance and powerful motor systems = greater transient accuracy. Add to this Direct Servo - which further improves transient accuracy.
Ribbon and electrostatic speakers have exceptionally accurate transients - and as such, it is indeed important to try and extend that to the subwoofer as well (at least as best as is possible as no sub can match these speakers).
There is a reason so many electrostatic and ribbon speaker owners are using Rythmik subs or have been pointed towards Rythmik.
The F8 is an incredibly articulate subwoofer.
Excellent info Dave. I should point out that I am not just a Rythmik fanboy. I have 7 subwoofers from 4 different manufacturers in my home right now. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. I have also owned previously 2 subs from SVS and 3 subs from HSU.
That is no joke. The only sub recommendation that gets thrown out in any Magnepan group I was part of was always Rythmik. It was eye-opening to see how many guys had problems integrating other subs, but Rythmik subs can be dialed in to sound incredible with Magnepan speakers in a day or so. It's even easier than using the DWM bass panel module.
I tried to get Brian to say that F8 has better transient response than other subs but he did not explicitly say anything regarding it. I tried F8s at my place but returned them as they were not cutting it for bass heavy movie scenes. YMMV. My rythmik F15 never felt shy to bring down the whole house and then some....😀.
Thanks
Ron
Ron, I may have misspoke about what Brian would say. I know Dave has shown a preference for the F8.
When it comes to bass heavy movies scenes, I too have hit the limit of dual F8 on occasion with some movies (TRON, LOTR). One thing I found interesting in my testing is that that dual F8s have pretty decent output at very low frequencies. I can get my doors 30 feet away to audibly vibrate with 12hz test tones with the F8s. As you go higher in frequency, however, the output capability does not increase as much as with some other subs.
Hey Ron....thou I've never experienced Rythmik in home, I have heard them a couple of occasions...my first encounter albeit brief was at PSA when I dropped by the shop whilst in the area and second was closer to home at a friends gtg both vtf15h and fv15hp on display along with some diy subs....aamof the RA and Hsu where dual setups...but without hearing them in my home I can not comment or speculate regarding SQ or personal preference.
Yes. That dreaded Tron movie made me return the F8s. I was testing things out and was planning to watch the "light cycle battle" scene but the subs threw up at the very first scene where the guy (Flynn) ends up at the "digital frontier". But I guess that's what will happen if we try to mis-use the product. As far as I know F8s were not designed to play very heavy bass scenes in Interstellar. The upcoming 18s are for that purpose. But I will and many others am sure would like to know how good the F18 is for music
Thanks
Ron
I had a small group at new year party my house for 20+ people. I never showed off my subwoofer business. But my wife urged me to do it. So I invite them to my 2 channel setup. It has AA 340SE plus a 15" sealed subs. I first showed them how the speakers just disappear and then played the Chesky Test CD 2 where there is a group of percussion musician come into a warehouse and circle around the microphones. The sound stage from those AA 340SE plus subwoofer is just amazing. The sound never appears from the speakers themselves. Not only that, you can hear they go to behind the speakers, to the left of the left speaker, then to the front of both speakers and then to the right of the right speaker, and continue circling. The sound stage was almost 3 dimensional, left and right, back and front, and low to high. The same Chesky test CD2 also has a track to test if microphone can hear the height. They kept asking me if that is multi-channel or some DSP (again buzz words). I told them it is 2 channel, unaltered in any way. I told them, that room is the best I have found in years. All that audible illusion is created by coherent sound from reasonably controlled wall reflection. My speakers are placed about 4 ft from back wall and 5 ft from side walls. It is difficult for me to give it back to my wife. I use that for all of my subwoofer testing. Towards the end, I had to play "Bass I love you". They saw the cone movement.
Sound is a fasinating thing to a lot of us. That group of mine indeed have different level of experience in audio. The most experienced one has a coaxial Tonnoy and he asked me to demo with small emsemble music and I played "Spanish Harlem" by Rebecca Pidgeon. He commented my system sounds much better than his in terms of articulation. He used exact the same track when he shopped for his speakers. Of course I also told them I am old fashion and therefore I am still using Ayre CD player, which by itself costs more than the rest of the system combined. What was interesting is one of them also brought up "****". The power of marketing is just amazing.
Now how do I know what I know now? It is via friends, it is via trade show (Audio show such as CES that I went more than 10 times), and it is via publication (both peer reviewed and non-peer reviewed). I was so lucky that I had an audio fanatic friend when I was in graduate school that in his room, he had changed the power amp at least 10 times, experiment with all sorts of cables and gadgets. He spent the money (trade-in equipments from time to time) and I did all the listening tests. The timing was perfect, that was when I am still annealable in my engineering training and what I hear gradually in my mind formed correlation to the physical world that I observed. I will talk about the danger of our eduation system next.
A lot of people go to a particular profession because of passion. But others don't and that makes huge difference and how they care about their products. I can tell you a lot of audio engineers don't listen to the products they designed. For them, it is just a job, from 9 to 5. Second, there are often criticism that today's education system is too rigid and it creates mind set from a common mold, and not many can really think outside the box. In audio, I can see that. Supposely I go to these trade shows and I cannot tell the difference these equipments make and I lost hearing in one ear, but I see big and easy bucks and still want to be in audio industry, I can still do well becasue I can apply all the "common sense", correct?
There are two types of publications: peer reviewed and non-peer reviewed. The former carries much more authority. I often treat the latter as opinions. For instance, some of the topics in the link Billy provided is just too hot to be peer reviewed. They will be striken out, not because it is right or wrong, but because there is no evidence of one way or another. Lastly, I do have a Ph.D degree and I can only earn my degree by publishing peer reviewed papers and I know how that goes. It is much easier to do a non-peer reviewed paper. You can pretty much write whatever.
Now go back to the subjects of F8. F8 is primarily for music/light HT system. Its bass sounds differently from the larger subwoofers because of "low inertia". For some it is almost feel like "light weight" because it comes and goes very fast. But frequency response wise, it does extends to below 20hz. I know a few customers can get F8 shake their room (as long as it is not large). Two months ago, I have another customer asked me about F8 on sale because he was on a film project at Austin for a few months. He is happy with F8 that shakes his smallish room and considering getting another F8 to save shipping cost on his way back to LA. So room size is an important factor. If you have a large room, not only you don't get the benefit of F8 and in fact it exposes its weakness much easier.
For Maggies, I think an F12G is a good fit, in particular if you need HPF. I had another local customer who bought all the subs he can return and borrow others, Hsu, SVS, F12, F12G and others from local stores, and he eventually goes with a pair of F12G. In his opinion, the tonality of F12G matches better with Maggies, depending on how critical your hearing is.
Thank you for your candid and sincere discussion. As I mentioned a couple pages back, I am drawn to the F8s because of the transient response. However, their crossover is lacking and I do not want to buy 'another box' to put in between my dac and my amp. Another concern of the F8s (and I will need two of them making 4 drivers) is the potential for interference. With multiple drivers, there is the concern that there will be muddying of the sound as the there will be multiple points of origin creating many more reflections. Although it should be easier to eliminate nodes this way (multiple small nodes are easier to hide that a couple of big nodes), I am concerned (as one reviewer put it) of kettle drums making a 'whoom' instead of a 'boom'.
So it seems there is a trade off:
F8s for quicker response at the cost of losing them in a large room and losing the transients they provide by virtue of multiple drivers. I only listen to music with this setup (for now) and the maggie 3.7is are 5 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the side walls. I would put the subs inboard of the maggies with the drivers equidistant from the listening position with the maggies.
Excellent info Brian. I totally agree about loving what you do. I love playing with audio video equipment and that's why I got into the business (sales and installation). I much rather deal with people who are passionate about their careers.
so how are people here integrating the F8 into their stereo systems? Since it does not have a crossover like its larger siblings, how do you adjust a quicker rolloff, etc? Which crossovers do you use? and where do you put them??
The F8 does have delay/phase knob, crossover knob and selectable LPF slope (12dB or 24dB per octave) so it's very easy to integrate on any system.
Attachment 1408
Thank you. But i was more interested in what the 'audiophiles' do. Obviously, they want to time align their subs, they want to roll off their mains to let the subs do the heavy lifting at the low end, they might want a sharper rolloff than 24db/octave. Or are these concerns not audible?
Please forgive the naïveté of my questions. I have never integrated a sub before and am just trying to learn.
What audiophiles want is for their speakers to disappear. The same thing is for the subwoofer. That is really what it boils down to in the end so that we just enjoy the music and not even realize the presence of speakers/subwoofers.
Crossover has a long history. On one extreme, we have speaker companies like Thiel and Vandesteen advocate 1st order with the largest overlap between drivers (which means drivers have to work wider bandwidth than they normally do). On the other extreme, we have the infinite slope crossover that shapes like a cliff (and therefore claim perfect transition from one driver to another). Both approaches have problem that it creates "lobes" of frequency response and the MLP is not at the peak of the lobe. If you are slightly off that MLP, then you can have large dip or variation in FR. In front speakers, that also degrade sound stage because the image is created by direct wave plus wall reflections. If the wall reflection, which is from the off-axis FR of speakers, is very different from direct wave, the sound stage naturally suffers.
Only after Linkwitz-Riley published their paper on a family of filters with perfect phase alignment at the
crossover point (which includes 12db/oct, 24db/oct, 36db/oct...configuration), engineers begin to realize this "phase alignment" is THE key to all crossover designs. It creates the large "lobe" in the frequency response and the improves the image as well. Ever since them, the Linkwitz-Riley (or simply L-R) becomes the only filter people talk about. In particular, the 24db/oct L-R becomes the most important. All AVRs adopt that configuration in their bass management. It is really the milestone in audio.
As for the question that multiple subwoofer drivers can blur the image, I really don't think it is not bad as long as the drivers are close to each other. David's 340SE is what we call MTM which also has two bass drivers. I never feel the image from those speakers are not as good as any single bass driver speakers I have own or I have heard in the show. The subwoofer reproduces wavelength that is much longer than that from 340SE.
For the amp in HX580, we have all the hooks to add HPF. But HPF has to be in RCA, not XLR. If HPF is highly desirable, we may just add that. This is where we need customer feedback.
Thank you for your clear explanation. But i cannot find the hx580. What is it?
The amps listed here:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html
show "HPF out" for the A370-XLR2 as XLR. so i do not know what you mean when you say 'HPF has to be in RCA'
And what is MTM?
Finally, does anyone use 36 db/octave? i am trying to find the paper where linkewitz described it. That kind of steep cutoff might be better if you are dealing with longer wavelengths, but then again it might not matter.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/compact_amplifiers.html
MTM: Midwoofer-Tweeter-Midwoofer loudspeaker configuration. The Ascend CMT-340SE is a MTM speaker.
HX580 (used in F8) and HX590 (used in L22) share the same circuit board. Right now HPF is not available on either one of them. But the circuit board can add an HPF easily. If you check out the amp on L22, it has left/right line in plus an LFE in. We can convert that LFE in to an HPF out. But that means you need to have two F8, one for left and one for right.
MTM is midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer, a configuration that place tweeter between two midwoofers. The configuration can be generalized to any speaker design with symmetric top half and bottom half relative to the tweeter at the middle.Quote:
And what is MTM?
Finally, does anyone use 36 db/octave? i am trying to find the paper where linkewitz described it. That kind of steep cutoff might be better if you are dealing with longer wavelengths, but then again it might not matter.
I guess most 'audiophiles' then do not use an external crossover. They just get the bigger f12 with the fancy subwoofer amp which has the necessary line out.
But I am curious to hear from anyone else on this forum who uses an external crossover, how they configure it and which rhythmic sub they use?? Or is everyone just using them for HT with feeding the rhythmic whatever their processor outputs for 'subwoofer out'?
A lot of people use the MiniDSP 2x4 and their other products for this purpose. They have their own user forum with tons of guides and lots of positive results. It's also the cheapest way there is to incorporate room correction into a system, especially a stereo system.
but i don't see any separate room correction in your chain sludge ogre. i guess the emotive has dirac or something tho.
maybe i should not overthink this. just move the speakers around and start throwing blankets on the wall and run REW scans till i am happy. when i am tired enough, i'll be able to enjoy the music.
I have a modest system based on a Emotiva Fusion 8100 AVR in 5.1 configuration, which I also use in 2.1 for music. In both cases I use the bass management from the AVR, crossing my Rythmik L12 sub at 80Hz with the mains (which are set to "small").
The result is very good for music and quite up to the task for movies. In my 18x14x8 room with two large opening to the rest of the lower floor the L12 easily rattles the windows and depending on the movies you can "feel" the bass through the couch :-)
I believe that using the amp/AVR bass management to take care of the crossover point assures a better integration than "intercepting" the natural -3dB point of the main speakers lower extension with the upper end of the sub frequency response. It is not impossible or wrong to do it that way, if you have a stereo amp with no bass management, but again, if you can simplify use the bass management of the amp/AVR (which is essentially an electronic crossover), why not?
Were they close to 1/2 the cost of a dual F8, I would have 2 single F8's in a heartbeat.
My application is 2.1 for music only in a small listening space. CBM 170-SE's have been ordered.
External crossover(s) via Marchand XM-1 modules (LR 24db) are available to me.
Good transient response and higher usable crossover points of the F8 interest me, but I am unclear if I can make good use of said higher crossover points.
Can anyone tell me what frequency bass content usually goes from mono to stereo in recorded music?
Late 60's/early 70's rock&roll is my main jam.
If the answer is say, 100Hz or less then stereo content is being lost crossing a single F8 at 200Hz is my quandary.
Space/fiscal constraints limit me to a single sub placed between the mains. An L12 is my backup plan if I can't satisfy myself that I can well utilize the higher crossover point available from the F8.
I have made inquiry to Rythmik as to the feasibility of modifying an F8 to two separate 8"'s in the stock enclosure and am awaiting further response to my question.
Why do you want to cross at 200Hz? I have a single L12 paired with two CMT-340 SE main for L&R channels. This combo sounds very, very good with 2-ch music and quite good with movie in a 5.1 configuration. Although the CBM-170 does not reach as low as the CMT-340, it reaches low enough to be crossed at 80Hz, which is still well above it's -3dB roll-off point.
I'm quite sure CBM-170's with an L12 crossed @ 80Hz would be great.
Heck, my $100 eBay NHT SuperZero's running @ full range with a $90 craigslist Paradigm PDR-12 crossed about 80Hz sounds pretty darn good.
So, going to the 170's and a better sub should be a significant upgrade.
The reason I'm exploring the idea of crossing the sub higher is in case relieving the 170's of that extra bit of "down low" duty would help the mid/treble performance. Plus, the F8 (by all accounts) could be better in the 80-200Hz range than the 170's.
I'm about to decide to crossover @80Hz with a single L12.
Still intrigued by the thought of stereo subs, though. If I could stereo a dual F8.......or, get two single F8's at a reasonable cost.......could be some magic there.
Glad to hear your L12/340's combo works well. I looked hard at the 340's, but went with the 170's as my listening area is so small.
Are you running your 340's full range, or high passed @ your sub's xover freq?
I am running the 340s high passed at 80Hz using the bass management in my receiver. The way the L12 works, if it is fed using the LFE input the internal crossover and phase adjustable controls are bypassed. That way the receiver or pre-pro take care of xover and phase, while you can still manually adjust sub output and bass extension. In reference to the latter, I keep the setting in "Low Music", so that the -3dB point of the L12 frequency response is 17Hz.
Dave can for sure elaborate more (and much better) on the subject, however I believe that crossing at 80Hz you are already helping the CMB-170 quite a bit. Even if the F8 can be used in "stereo" mode (I doubt it), the physical setup of the sub would keep left and right so close to nullify any stereo separation. Not to mention that the spacing would be way less than the spacing of the LR mains.
I have never tried it, but I believe the best way to have a stereo sub setup is to use two physically separate subs, feed them using the "Line In", one using only the L channel, the other using only the R channel and then adjusting xover, phase and level on both manually.
Doing this and if you put the two subs underneath or very close to the CBM-170, you could have some advantage is crossing at a higher point. You would effectively turn the CBM-170 plus sub into a 3-way system, with each sub and each CM-170 being co-located and therefore eliminating any mis-localization issue having the sub reproducing frequencies up to 200Hz, because they would be emitting by the same main speakers location.
On the other hand, if you cross at 200Hz with a single sub, you would be depriving the L and R main of some of the ambient cues that contributes to correct stereo imaging in the mid-bass region, which is exactly the opposite of what you want to accomplish.
Yeah, I had wondered if there was enough physical separation between drivers in the F8 to get any noticeable stereo separation.
Exactly, don't want to cross subs much, if any above 80Hz, unless in a true stereo configuration.
I believe it's time to quit overthinking this and order an L12.
Thanks for the feedback, bro.
Hi Mazeppa,
You are misunderstanding a few important issues here. With speakers like our CBM-170's that can handle being run full range and are essentially flat to 80Hz, you will never want to cross higher than 80Hz. There is an audible disadvantage to crossing higher as frequencies above 80Hz become localized to the subwoofer and this will completely throw off imaging and soundstage presentation.
Secondly, it is not that bass content is recorded in monaural - it is the fact that bass wavelengths are extremely long (80Hz wavelength is ~ 14ft) such that a listener would not actually hear any stereo separation - thus there is really no point in "stereo bass". Bass as defined at anything below 100Hz.
Recording engineers typically keep anything below 100Hz as monaural or "centered" - meaning the exact same signal is fed into both the left and right stereo channels so that the image is centered.
The reason for the option of using a very high crossover point on the F8 is so that people using tiny satellite speakers can cross to a high performance compact sub without ending up with a hole in their in-room frequency response. This is not an issue with any of our products ;)
What he said!! Like I wrote, Dave elaborated much better ;)
I am very happy with the L12. YMMV, as they say, but for the price, it is a giant killer, just like the CMT-340 is.
Finally got my head where it needed to be on this deal. 80Hz it is.
Interesting to hear that running the 170's full range is no real detriment to them.
Cool, forget the high pass from an external crossover to the 170's.
My 3.1, all active crossover system taught me that while it could be sublime, all in all simpler is better.
Dave,
You know, I've never seen a breakdown by frequency of typical audio terminology for ranges.
Now I know 0-100 for bass, what are the numbers that you, being a speaker designer, use for mid-bass, mid & treble?
MusicHead had me pretty well squared away on all this.
I ordered an L12 yesterday. Dina gave me the 5% off even though my 170's were ordered some 8 days or so ago.
Wow, I haven't even heard an Ascend speaker yet, but I'm ready to start telling my friends about y'all.
Here is an Interactive Frequency Chart that may help answer your question.
http://www.independentrecording.net/...in_display.htm
Jack
Thanks for the link, Jack.
I've probably strayed sufficiently from the F8 to move myself to more applicable (to my equipment)
threads.
Appreciate the help, fellas.
Dave,
Do you still use this sub in your setup? I am considering this model for my Sierra 2 setup but I’m wondering if it might not have enough output for my room.
My living room is in a way an open concept setup. While my main listening area is about 15x10, I often move around the whole kitchen area and would love to be able to hear a nice full rich bass setup throughout.
My other consideration is the F12 setup but the footprint is a bit larger leading to a tighter to fit in my area.