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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Thanks Brian!
I was just curious, mostly, about the power output. If that is the same then I don't see a need to change the amp.
I have an LD player. It is nicely packed away in it's original box in a closet:cool:
I do like the new sub enclosures. I still need to figure out some sort of grill for my unfinished MDF box:(
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RythmikAudio
The comparison of sealed vs vented subwoofers is a bit difficult because there are weakness in each. The vented box would have more output between 25hz to 40hz band only, and lose to sealed subwoofer below port tuning frequency (for the rumble effect). But I have a few PC Ultra customers, after they hear the sound of our subwoofers, they are pretty much surprised there is such a huge difference. One customer, Kevin, even said our sound is just cleaner, there is no other way to describe it. If you are into sound quality and not into SPL competition, our sealed 15" have plenty output.
BTW, I won't recommend turn D15SE side way, it just doesn't look good. The reason we are still evaluating what to do with a piano finish F15 is that we can use a different driver. If there is any improvement in SPL we'd want to do, the reward is higher if it is done on 15".
-Brian
Is there a reason why you are considering a different driver for the F15 rather than just offering it in a piano finish? If I am in the market now, having carpet over wood sub-floor what do you recomend I do?
Brandon
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
merrymaid520
Is there a reason why you are considering a different driver for the F15 rather than just offering it in a piano finish? If I am in the market now, having carpet over wood sub-floor what do you recomend I do?
Did you do the "stomp" test that Brian mentioned in that area?
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
curtis
Did you do the "stomp" test that Brian mentioned in that area?
I am planning on "stomping around" when I get home tonight. I will report back with all of the scientific data I can gather;)
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RythmikAudio
For me, musicality is the correct combination of contrast (some call it dynamics), articulation, and pace that give us goosebumps and make us tap our foot.
Interesting answer, Brian, thanks!
Sounds like what you're describing is what a lot of people call "PRaT" (pace, rhythm & timing), but I think we're talking about the same thing when you describe the effect it has on the listening experience.
Very interesting (and encouraging) that you have each subjective aspect of musical sound mapped to a t/s parameter or other hardware component. I'm really looking forward to hearing what your subs can do!
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Subs look great...love the pb finish. Funny thing is, since I'm based in TX, it looks like it would be cheaper to purchase from Ascend (899+50 s/h) than picking one up from Rythmik in Austin (899+$74 due to 8.125% tax)!
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Wow! How did I miss this? Congrats to Dave and Brian! :D
I've dealt with Brian in the past, problems with Canada Post with an amp plate, and Brian was absolutely great to deal with. Great guy! I really think this partnership with Ascend and Rythmik is absolutely fantastic. I don't think it was a coincidence that Rythmik stood out at the time I was looking for sub parts a couple years ago, as they always somewhat seemed to fit with the Ascend philosophy. At the time the servo was more than I wanted to spend, but if I built/bought a new sub, it would definitely be a servo, and Brian/Rythmik is where it's at.
Sealed and servo is where it's at for musical subs. Hell, I even said so in the "what sub do you guys want"! Well sort of...
Quote:
So I guess what I'm asking is not to make a monstrous looking sub, bit of aesthetics is more important than type of finish for me In my case, I'd like smaller footprint and maybe higher, but that's not so important.
One thing I learned with my sealed sub, you want a flat FR... Sealed, that probably means EQ or servo, but I'll leave the designing to you
[...]
Words like Servo or digital amps are floating in my mind...
And Servo we got! Not to mention great looking subs... Piano Black looks great, probably fantastic match with the Sierras!
Seriously, if I could have chosen, or written the story myself, couldn't have done better, Ascend and Rythmik together, absolutely fantastic. Two great companies and individuals, imho, couldn't have been a better match!
Congrats!
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Wow
Great choice Dave!!
I have been enjoying my DS12 for awhile now, and have absolutely no regrets with the purchase I made.
Teamed up with my Sierras, the DS12 sounds fantastic.
Brian was very easy to talk to when I was getting ready to order, just like you were Dave.
Welcome to the forum Brian!
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clarke68
Interesting answer, Brian, thanks!
Sounds like what you're describing is what a lot of people call "PRaT" (pace, rhythm & timing), but I think we're talking about the same thing when you describe the effect it has on the listening experience.
Very interesting (and encouraging) that you have each subjective aspect of musical sound mapped to a t/s parameter or other hardware component. I'm really looking forward to hearing what your subs can do!
I want to clarify a bit though because if we just focus on pace, rhythm and timing, it may sound very mechanical. If we analyze music techniques such as portamento (techniques of gliding between notes in singing or strings), what does it take to faithfully reproduce that type of sound? I think it is contrast and articulation (and not so much of rhythm as defined as periodic beat). Yes, human voice and strings are two of my favorite instruments, so my view may be biased.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
I was looking at these Rythmik subs on their website, and the frequency response in the specs seem to be the identical curve for all 3. Is that possible?
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Yep, due to servo :)
See here: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/technology.html
Quote:
*1. Amplified signal
The plate amplifier receives a signal which is filtered on the pre-amp board to achieve correct integration. The power amplifier sends a signal to the driver.
*2. Cone excursion
As the amplified signal passes through the voice coil, the cone moves.
*3. Correction signal
A very thin sensing coil is attached to the voice coil. As the cone moves, a signal is generated. This signal is used to accurately track the movement of the cone. Effectively the sensing coil is a specialized microphone which measures the precise output of the driver.
*4. Feedback
The correction signal is fed back into the summing points of the amplifier. It is compared to the original signal and corrections are made without the use of any active circuits.
*5. Corrected signal is accurately reproduced
The driver now reproduces a signal that is corrected. The sources of distortion which plague other subwoofers are dramatically reduced.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
millerwill
I was looking at these Rythmik subs on their website, and the frequency response in the specs seem to be the identical curve for all 3. Is that possible?
I need to discuss with the web designer. I may not have communicated them well with him. I have published DS1200 and DS1500 curves before. They are almost idential below 60hz for the reason GirgleMirt mentioned. Above 60hz, the roll-off is different for 12" and 15" due to the magnitude of inductance are different in those two models. Anyway, I will correct that as soon as possible.
BTW, Paul Spencer has helped me designed these webs and he has done a great job. He is also an audiophile and owns a pair of directservo subs.
There is a historical reason for me try to clone the frequency response. When I was designing DS15 (our first 15" driver), I had problem deciding what roll-off contouring I should use for the low end. I want it sound as close to our 12" as possible. I constantly switch between the two in my listening room. And I struggled for a month and then the face of Bob Carver gave me a hint and then I decide I should clone the frequency response as much as possible. Then if there is any difference, it is due to driver and not due to frequency reponse. Ever since then, that is our design philosiphy and it has helped us to design good driver and subwoofer. Whenever a driver does not sound as dynamic, we go look at the spider, the surround, and all the components that can affect sound quality.
For those not familiar with what Bob Carver has done, he is the first one successfully implemented transfer function cloning for pre-amp and power amps and demostrated in front of a panel of audiophiles, not just once, but twice. The second time was from Stereophile. The first time was from TAS. Stereophile felt the first event was not carefully designed so they gave him a tube power amplifier wrapped in a box or case that Bob cannot see what is inside. The rest is history.
-Brian
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RythmikAudio
I want to clarify a bit though because if we just focus on pace, rhythm and timing, it may sound very mechanical. If we analyze music techniques such as portamento (techniques of gliding between notes in singing or strings), what does it take to faithfully reproduce that type of sound? I think it is contrast and articulation (and not so much of rhythm as defined as periodic beat). Yes, human voice and strings are two of my favorite instruments, so my view may be biased.
Good point...you've obviously thought about this quite a bit! You may be biased, but a bias towards the human voice is probably a good thing for any speaker designer.
I love to hear what some of your favorite recordings are, both for general listening enjoyment and for subwoofer testing. For the latter, I'd particularly like to know specific things you listen for, and what they "mean" to you when evaluating/improving a product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RythmikAudio
I need to discuss with the web designer. I may not have communicated them well with him.
I think you may have similar issues in the "specifications" section...the F15 and the D15SE are listed as having the same dimensions.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RythmikAudio
I need to discuss with the web designer. I may not have communicated them well with him. I have published DS1200 and DS1500 curves before. They are almost idential below 60hz for the reason GirgleMirt mentioned. Above 60hz, the roll-off is different for 12" and 15" due to the magnitude of inductance are different in those two models. Anyway, I will correct that as soon as possible.
Thanks much for the detailed reply; much appreciated.
BTW, I presume that the 12" sub would be quite adequate for my medium small room, 2200 ct ft; is that right? I've had a SVS PB10 ISD for ~ 3 yrs and liked it, though I'm always open to something better.
Also, is the only difference between the F12 and F12SE the finish? (I actually prefer the black oak of the F12, to make it 'disappear' more easily.)
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RythmikAudio
There is a historical reason for me try to clone the frequency response. When I was designing DS15 (our first 15" driver), I had problem deciding what roll-off contouring I should use for the low end. I want it sound as close to our 12" as possible. I constantly switch between the two in my listening room.
Hi Brian,
If you guys tried to make the 15" sound as close to the 12" as possible, does this mean the 12" driver sounds better than the 15"? The 15" has more output but gives up slightly on SQ? If so, will it be correct to say we can just add more 12"s to our setup to increase output but won't be able to improve SQ with the 15". Which one of these drivers do you think will be a better setup with the Sierra 1's? (In a dual setup)
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blake1214
Hi Brian,
If you guys tried to make the 15" sound as close to the 12" as possible, does this mean the 12" driver sounds better than the 15"? The 15" has more output but gives up slightly on SQ? If so, will it be correct to say we can just add more 12"s to our setup to increase output but won't be able to improve SQ with the 15". Which one of these drivers do you think will be a better setup with the Sierra 1's? (In a dual setup)
+1 on this question, I started to get that impression from this thread. over time of research I heard forward firing was also better for music, but I think that is too subjective to the layout of the sub and quality of components.
I did stumble upon this thread, ironically while reading this one, which may help. but I'm sure Brian will clear this up anyway :)
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
scape
+1 on this question, I started to get that impression from this thread. over time of research I heard forward firing was also better for music, but I think that is too subjective to the layout of the sub and quality of components.
I did stumble upon this
thread, ironically while reading this one, which may help. but I'm sure Brian will clear this up anyway :)
The difference in sound between 15" and 12" drivers are now less than DS15. You really have to play them in the same room and back to back to hear the difference and even then, the difference is very subtle. If you crossover at 60hz or below (the most likely scenario with Sierra-1), the difference is almost zero. I hope this will clear things up. If not, I need to explain how servo works.
Dave had both of my 15" and 12" complete subs in test boxes last year for his evaluation. He was surprised that the two frequency response are almost right on each other. That is a feature, but a mistake. Keep in mind, what is the difference between servo and nonservo? Servo has feedback connected from the sensor output and nonservo has feedback connected from the amplifier outputs. With feedback connected from amplifier output in nonservo, it can only control the amplifier output to follow a linear relation with respect to input signal. The actual speaker output still needs to go through the transformation from electrical energy to acoustic energy. With servo, we are controlling so that sensor signal is linearly proportional to the input signal, completely bypass the interface between amplifier and speaker. As a matter of fact, we can even insert a 6ohms resistor in series with the driver coil and the frequency response would still be the same. We can also change the enclosure volume to 2x as big in sealed box (the case for vented box is a bit different) and still frequency response is still very close +/-1db or less. All of these demonstrate the consistency and coherence of servo subwoofer.
The new driver DS1500 in both F15/D15 is different from DS15 (our first generation 15" driver) in that the moving mass has been reduced by 20%. I contribute that to a more dynamic sound in the new model.
I seldom disclose or explain how servo reduces distortion. And that have left a lot to imagination. I've even seen one comment that even in servo you need to have the same linearity as nonservo. My reply wa very simple: "have you written down the close form equation for distortion analysis?" As a remedy of the problem, I now want to design a PowerPoint presentation to describe how the servo and nonservo are different. As a matter of fact, the two can be compared side by side to get an apple to apple comparison through the method of equivalent circuit analysis.
For those who are versed in T/S parameters, let us now pretend we don't even know T/S parameters and think what the impedance of a bass driver is made of. It is an ideal motor (called back EMF) in series with a voice coil resistor. Let us ignore the voice coil inductance for now. The current goes through the driver and causes an IR drop (current times resistor) which is a voltage number. To keep the discussion complete, let us say the voice coil resistance is Rvc, and the current is Ivc. Back EMF is also a voltage number and it is related to BL*v. BL is also referred to as BL profile which may not be linear. The amplifier output, Vop = BL*v+Ivc*Rvc. Vop is distortion free. Let us further assume BL is perfectly linear and v is perfectly linear. Does that mean the equation is balanced now? No. If Rvc is 0 (which is type of assuming we use a superconductor), then the equation is balanced. If Rvc is not 0, there will be counter-distortion current to counteract with the nonlinearity of spider/surround, flux modulation, all sorts of distortion mechanism that has no bearing with BL linearity. That counter-distortion is still a distortion components. That components creates a nonlinear IR drop with Idist*Rvc. Now the equation is not balanced at all. Right hand side have disortion component and left hand side does not. So BL*v needs to have distortion component that is opposite sign of Idist*Rvc and that is how the velocity of cone becomes distorted even when you have perfectly linear BL profile. Yes, we have heard some manufacturers want you to believe as long as they have linear BL, then it will be the ultimate drivers. Here you hear the other side of that story. Also Rvc is voice coil resistor with a temperature coefficient of 0.3%/Celsius. As the Ivc*Rvc modulates over time, there will be additional distortion mechanism. So here is the summary for the distortion in nonservo subwoofer:
1) The distortion and hysteresis (memory effect) of spider/surround creates a Idist*Rvc component as an internal source of distortion, this source goes to affect BL*v and cause it the have distortion components and cause a new Idist value and this process iterate until the equation is balanced.
2) BL profile can cause a distortion component.
3) Voice coil resistance can modulate over time and cause a modulation distortion best described as thermal memory distortion.
So the total distortion is contribution from all 3 above.
Now how does servo's equivalent circuit compares to the above? Our servo has a unique feature of taking both velocity sensing and current sensing feedback. The result is it creates an equivalent circuit that is very similar to nonservo except a couple of "subtle differences".
1) The BL profile is replaced with the BL profile of sensing coil (not the driver coil). We have designed the sensing coil to be super overhang. It is way more linear and this does not reduce the efficiency of the speaker at all. I've seen several so-called "linear motors" widens the magnetic gap so much in order to get linear BL profile. It reduces efficiency as a side-effect and that leads to other type of distortion. Here we take a different approach. We can achieve linear BL profile while not widening the gap at all.
2) The equivalent Rvc value is almost resistive and it is only 1/3 of actual voice coil resistance. Whenever it is possible, we'd like to make equivalent Rvc as low as possible while maintain unconditional stable characteristic of the system. 1/3 is what we can achieve so far.
3) The temperature coefficient of Rvc is now 90ppm/Celsius because we use Mills MRA10 audiophile resistor as the current sensing resistor.
To complete the picture, the equivalent circuit of servo is again a back EMF (with profile from sensing coil) in series with a resistor only 1/3 of physical voice coil value and with a temperature coefficient of only 0.009%/C. Because the Rvc is now only 1/3, the distortion caused by spider/surround... is only 1/3 of nonservo and we are trying to put this number as small as possible and in the future it can be even lower. As I have mentioned before, surround/spider distortion is nonlinear memory effectdistortion. BL profile distortion is linear and coherent/consistent all the time. That 1/3x reduction addresses both types of distortions.
The physical aspect of the driver such as driver coil's BL profile and voice coil resistor are not in the equation at all. The distortion components of driver coil's BL nonlinearity is indirectly in the equation because the distortion caused by it is reduced to 1/3 because of 1/3 equivalent Rvc.
All these have contributed to improvement in sound. Another important feature of directservo is now we have 3 different Q characteristic in the system:
1) The physical Q value. Physical Q value determines the energy transfer ratio between our amps and speaker. For instance, even though 0 voice coil resistance can eliminate a lot of distortion sources, it causes an undesirable stall effect that the frequency response follows a -6db/oct starting from 100hz all the way to 5hz which is not very good at all. The best physical Q value is around 0.7 to 0.9 to ensure max energy transfer in the pass band.
2) The system Q value determined by the equivalent circuit should be as low as possible as it is proportional to "equivalent" Rvc. Currently it is 0.3 for 12" driver and 0.25 for 15" driver. Lower equivalent Rvc increases damping force. When you push the cone, you can feel a stronger resistive force pushing you back. This characteristic is best observed in free air because once you are in a box and you really need to push fast enough to emulate the frequencies above 10hz (otherwise, you will be just excercising the spring force of a sealed box). In a spring-mass-friction system, resistive force is the only one that dissipates energy (this is also how we are different accelerometer-based approach, which implements a very large spring force in the equivalent circuit, and spring force does not dissipate energy). It also means the cone would transfer less and dissipate more of the standing wave inside the enclosure. Moreover, if the system is accidentally push out of their linear operation range (such as clipping) or deviated from their linear path due to nonlearity of the system, it can recover 3x faster than nonservo as soon as it is back to linear range. The result is a sense of fast bass under almost all condition.
3) Final time domain/frequency domain Q value. Although system Q should be as low as possible as we push below 0.25, the final frequency response from the sub stay above 0.5. Anything below 0.5 can sound very lean. For this reason, we have provided three settings for everyone to try (0.5, 0.707, 1.0) and most listeners like 0.5.
Servo is the only approach that can completely decouple all three Q values without one stepping on another. Our directservo further improves on that as 1) our impedance loading component is more resistive than accelerometer-based approach, and 2) There is only two resistor and one capacitor between our sensing coil and the feedback summing point of power amplifier. It has the least coloration. So I also like to call our servo as no-catch servo technique. BTW, DirectServo means direct coupling, both electrically and mechanically.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
man, that's a lot to chew on on a sunday morning... :)
thanks brian...
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
...Or any other morning for that matter. Thank God I was fortunate enough to stumble upon Ascend speakers and find speakers I like because they sound good. Knowing Dave, and how he always puts the best product out there, I can only assume that the Rythmik subs will sound equally as good. No offense Brian, but that description was just a schooch beyond me.:confused:
I do appreciate your willingness to discuss your product(s) with us here.
Peace,
Jim
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
buddhadas
...Or any other morning for that matter. Thank God I was fortunate enough to stumble upon Ascend speakers and find speakers I like because they sound good. Knowing Dave, and how he always puts the best product out there, I can only assume that the Rythmik subs will sound equally as good. No offense Brian, but that description was just a schooch beyond me.:confused:
I do appreciate your willingness to discuss your product(s) with us here.
Peace,
Jim
It is ok. For non-techies, I have another version to compare nonservo vs servo. It is like compare a dumb bomb and a smart bomb. A dumb bomb can home in a target when wheather condition is good. A smart bomb constantly adjust its direction between iis current position and target position and the result is a higher hit rate in practical use.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
When I first read this, I thought you "said" dumb blonde, after re-reading that makes perfect sense to this old fart.
Thanks,
Jim
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Any chance either if the 15" subs will come in honey oak?
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
I still educating myself wrt Rythmik subs and am confused by the 'Product selection guide' on their website. The demarkation between 'large' and 'medium' sized rooms is stated to be '115 sq ft = 35 sqm'. But 1 sqm is 10.76 sq ft, so that 35 sqm is ~377 (not 115) sq ft. My room is ~250 sq ft, so it's relevant to know whether it is 'medium' or 'large' with regard to the size of sub that is recommended. I think it is 'medium' (actually a small 'medium') so that for HT a 12" sealed sub is probably recommended. Right?
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
millerwill
I still educating myself wrt Rythmik subs and am confused by the 'Product selection guide' on their website. The demarkation between 'large' and 'medium' sized rooms is stated to be '115 sq ft = 35 sqm'. But 1 sqm is 10.76 sq ft, so that 35 sqm is ~377 (not 115) sq ft. My room is ~250 sq ft, so it's relevant to know whether it is 'medium' or 'large' with regard to the size of sub that is recommended. I think it is 'medium' (actually a small 'medium') so that for HT a 12" sealed sub is probably recommended. Right?
I think I see the error on the website: 1 m = 3.28 ft, and 3.28*35 = 115.
Somebody forgot to square 3.28 in converting SQUARE meters to SQUARE feet. I presume that the division between 'medium' and 'large' rooms is 35 sqm = 377 sq ft.
And wouldn't the VOUME of the room be more useful a measure than the floor space? I.e., doesn't height matter?
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
millerwill
I think I see the error on the website: 1 m = 3.28 ft, and 3.28*35 = 115.
Somebody forgot to square 3.28 in converting SQUARE meters to SQUARE feet. I presume that the division between 'medium' and 'large' rooms is 35 sqm = 377 sq ft.
And wouldn't the VOUME of the room be more useful a measure than the floor space? I.e., doesn't height matter?
I have made a correction. I do have a dedicated 300 ft^2 room with 9 ft ceiling and that should be a medium size room. Height would matter, but not in a linear relation.
I also corrected the frequency response and temporaory copied the plots from DS1500 to 15" subwoofers. As far as I know, all frequency response plots are now correct.
F15 currently only offers two finishes: black oak and walnut. I didn't consider any light color option as we want to use darker color to make it look smaller :rolleyes:
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RythmikAudio
I have made a correction. I do have a dedicated 300 ft^2 room with 9 ft ceiling and that should be a medium size room. Height would matter, but not in a linear relation.
I also corrected the frequency response and temporaory copied the plots from DS1500 to 15" subwoofers. As far as I know, all frequency response plots are now correct.
F15 currently only offers two finishes: black oak and walnut. I didn't consider at light color option as we want to use darker color to make it look smaller :rolleyes:
Thanks much, Brian. My 250 sq ft room is thus medium/small, so it 'sounds' like the F12 would be the sub I would be interested in. (And I LIKE the black oak cabinet the best!)
As I gather from the website, you only produce 'complete' subs that are sealed; i.e., you don't produce ported ('vented') versions of your subs (though a person could do one DIY). Is that correct?
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clarke68
I love to hear what some of your favorite recordings are, both for general listening enjoyment and for subwoofer testing. For the latter, I'd particularly like to know specific things you listen for, and what they "mean" to you when evaluating/improving a product.
Some of my favorite CD:
Eagles: hell freeze over (XRCD)
Dire Straits: Making Movies
Edgar Meyer et al: Heatland an Appalachian Anthology
Rosinni: String Sonata 1-6 (XRCD)
Jazz at the Pawnshop
Massenet: Ballet Music (Klavier)
I also use these to test subwoofer integration. The sound I am looking for is a perfect integration between front speakers and subwoofer so that the whole system sounds like a single fulll range system. One does not need to play a bass heavy music to appreciate the value of subwoofer. A subwoofer adds to all 3 dimensions of the sound stage. It gives a more complete boundary of instructment without making it fat. It is almost as if you can hear more detail of the sound. IMHO, it is the low frequencies signal that connects one note to next which makes the music flow with specific effects. Even instruments like solo violin is often played with techniques try to add low frequency contents to the sound to make it sound more rhythmic.
The CDs that I test subwoofers for bass response include Massenet, flight of the cosmic Hippo (Bela Fleck), U571 (the depth charge dropped in the water and the explosion), and more recently Blue Man's group, Peom of Chinese Drums. BTW, I also enjoy Chesky demo CD2. in particular the track with a small percussion band circling around the microphones. With a good system (with or without a subwoofer), you can clearly hear the group circling our speakers going to the behind of speakers, then to the right of the right speaker, then to the front of the speakers (ie, between speakers and me), and then go to the left of lef speaker, then go behind the speakers again, then go on and on. All 4 instruments are clearly distinguishable and circle with distance between them. Another track of the CD tests the image height in your sound system. These tracks remind me that 2 channel audio is not dead, we just haven't exploited its full potential.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
millerwill
Thanks much, Brian. My 250 sq ft room is thus medium/small, so it 'sounds' like the F12 would be the sub I would be interested in. (And I LIKE the black oak cabinet the best!)
As I gather from the website, you only produce 'complete' subs that are sealed; i.e., you don't produce ported ('vented') versions of your subs (though a person could do one DIY). Is that correct?
Vented version is in the work. We would like to put in a couple of new features before we ship them. They will be all 15" based. I don't recommend 12" for vented subwoofer anymore.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RythmikAudio
Vented version is in the work. We would like to put in a couple of new features before we ship them. They will be all 15" based. I don't recommend 12" for vented subwoofer anymore.
VERY interesting! Thanks again.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Well count me In!
I placed an order for a Pair of RYTHMIK D-15 SE 15.
These will replace my SVS PC12 Ultra in my HT.
Had the upgrade bug and wanted to try out a sealed sub that hits hard and low.
Was a tough decision as I was also considering the HSU ULS-15, and the SVS PB13ultra.
I ruled out the ULS-15 because of the price (really wanted a pair and was just too much)
I ruled out the PB13Ultra, mainly because of it's size and weight, it would have be tough for me to place it in an optimal position in my room.
My HT family room is about 432 sq feet or 3500 cubic feet, but is basically a rectangular room with 2 doors that close. I cut the room in half long ways for the HT part, So Its much smaller than the footage would indicate.
I'm also running an HSU MBM-12 in my setup and will also use it with the 2 rythmiks.
Hopefully they won't disappoint!
Now if Dave can just ship them fast enough for me to get them by the weekend!
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jedi.night
Well count me In!
I placed an order for a Pair of RYTHMIK D-15 SE 15.
Be sure to give us a review once you've got them set up and dialed in!
Doug
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jedi.night
I'm also running an HSU MBM-12 in my setup and will also use it with the 2 rythmiks.
Try them with and without the MBM. I would also contact Hsu about changing that MBM to a sealed unit.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jedi.night
Well count me In!
I placed an order for a Pair of RYTHMIK D-15 SE 15.
These will replace my SVS PC12 Ultra in my HT.
Had the upgrade bug and wanted to try out a sealed sub that hits hard and low.
Was a tough decision as I was also considering the HSU ULS-15, and the SVS PB13ultra.
I ruled out the ULS-15 because of the price (really wanted a pair and was just too much)
I ruled out the PB13Ultra, mainly because of it's size and weight, it would have be tough for me to place it in an optimal position in my room.
My HT family room is about 432 sq feet or 3500 cubic feet, but is basically a rectangular room with 2 doors that close. I cut the room in half long ways for the HT part, So Its much smaller than the footage would indicate.
I'm also running an HSU MBM-12 in my setup and will also use it with the 2 rythmiks.
Hopefully they won't disappoint!
Now if Dave can just ship them fast enough for me to get them by the weekend!
Looks like we had the same subs in mind. I almost pre-rdered the PB13 but I really wanted to concentrate on SQ. Although I'm sure the PB13 would outperform my PC plus in both output as well as SQ, I decided to look elsewhere that was really about SQ. I knew I can retain ouput by just adding another sub.
When the ULS-15s came out, I was almost sure I would be ending up with a pair. At the same time, I really wanted to wait for what Dave was going to offer. I'm guessing the ULS-15 and the D-15 are more comparable. Price wise, I think they're also in the same league (after dual discount and pretty much the same if you go quads). It would definitely make the decision easier if the Rythmiks were at their original price or have discounts on multiples. Unless there's something different in the components used from when they were selling directly from Rythmiks' website, doesn't it kind of contradict with the whole Internet Direct model? This is in no way an attempt to cause any type of controversy. But just something that l thought about when considering for these subs. I may be totally wrong though if there were indeed changes or improvements on these subs.
Please let us now how they work out for you!!
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
curtis
Try them with and without the MBM. I would also contact Hsu about changing that MBM to a sealed unit.
I had no idea a sealed unit was an option for the MBM. Is this custom or a new unit they're offering?
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
I'm glad to see a new subwoofer partnership in place. The Rythmik products have an excellent reputation.
Having bamboo Sierra's, I would like to see a bamboo option, and I've posted my thoughts in the other thread.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Curtis, Dave, anyone,
I should be receiving the pair of 15 inch SE's on Monday.
Questions for all, since after research there is some conflicting ideas on calibration of 2 co located subs.
In my setup, I will most likely have them both co located center stage under my plasma TV.
Since they are identical subs, most likely they will be able to be set at identical gains to achieve calibration with my mains at 75 dbs.
However using a RS meter do I calibrate them individually at 75 dbs with one on and 1 off, and then leave them both on boosted by co location? or do I then back down the sub trim to 75 db's once they are both on together?
I will also be using audyessy with my Denon 2809, but at least I can compare and contrast easily once I get them set up, but turning it on or off.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jedi.night
Curtis, Dave, anyone,
I should be receiving the pair of 15 inch SE's on Monday.
BTW, what is the size of your room? (Thanks!)
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Calibration process
If you don't have a computer program to do this for you, I will use the following manual process. If you are using Sierra-1 or 340SE, please also let me know and I can come up with a initial setup to start with.
You will need: 1) a calibration CD. The one I use is Stereophile test CD 2, 2) SPL meter and a tripot, and 3) paper printout from spreadsheet.
Go through the measurement in the following steps (this applies to all brands):
1) Do the close mic measurement (placing the mic very close to cone in 2") on subwoofer (open up the xover point).
1a) For sealed front, do the same thing. Vented front speakers are a bit more complex as it needs to sum the output from woofer and vent. Since vent opening and woofer size is a bit different, we cannot directly add them together. However, the reading from the vent can help us determine what tuning frequency is for the front. The interesting point for vent speakers is the phase shift is 180 degrees at tuning point. For sealed box, the corner frequency point (-1db or -3db) has a phase shift of 90 degrees. This will help determine the phase adjustment we need to do. As it will be up to 90degrees difference between these two cases.
2) Do the far field measurement of subwoofer by placing SPL on tripod at your lisenting height and location.
3) Do the same for the front speaker.
4) Now do the same for both front speaker and subwoofer on.
The comparison of 1) and 2) gives you idea about the room mode you may have. The sub should have pretty flat response in close-mic measurement 1) from 10hz (-4db) to 80hz. So any big up and down in 2) is due to room modes. Try subwoofer at different location and write down their numbers for step 2) and 4) so that you can do a selection. The comparison of 2), 3) and 4) will give us idea if the xover point is good.
For vented front speakers, one needs to add phase lead the subwoofer (EDIT: I made a mistake in the original post) to compensate for the extra phase shift of vented fronts using HT receiver's speaker distance menu. Put the subwoofer farther away than what it actually is relative to front speakers can fool the receiver to pull the timing of subwoofer ahead, which is equivalent to a phase lead. In other words, to compensate for the additional phase shift for front speakers (vented in particular), we need to add phase lead (or pull timing ahead) on subwoofer to get perfect phase alignment between fronts and sub(s) when the xover point and the tuning frequency of vent front is too close. The difference between the xover set in the receiver and vent's tuning frequency determines how much of that 90 degress shift is actually affecting your setup. (Keep in mind, all HT receiver uses LR alignment design and put a 2nd order filtering on front speaker and 4th order filtering on sub, the assumption for them to do that is that at xover point the front speaker will have 90 degrees phase shift. As one can see, this assumption applies to sealed more than vented. But that doesn't mean it will not work for vented fronts. We just need to know how to adapt).
If you don't use a HT receiver, you need to be able to xover the vent front speaker higher enough than the tuning frequency (sealed box is ok). Otherwise, the best bet is to run front speaker full range. This is particularly true for those with 5" woofer in vent configuration. For sierra-1 and 340SE, if you do full range, the xover setup you want to use on plate amp is set the low pass switch to 50hz/24 and delay control at 10 o'clock position and gradually adjust the xover knob from 80hz to 50hz to see the integration result in step 4).
Please feel free to ask questions. I will put all the essential information on a integration guide.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Quote:
Originally Posted by
millerwill
BTW, what is the size of your room? (Thanks!)
It's about 3500 cubic feet, rectangular room. But it's deceiving because I cut the room in half long ways for the HT setup.
36 ft length X 12 feet Wide X 8 feet height. is the Total room space.
However I use about a 12 X 12 section of the room turned on its side for the HT. 2 doors but I keep them closed.
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Re: Wishing a warm welcome to Rythmik Audio
Anyone,
can you explain to me how the damping factor and rumble filter work exactly.
I believe the rumble filter is just another term for high pass filter, correct? But I'm not sure how those settings relate to damping.
My D-15 SE's will be used primarily for HT and Gaming. What settings would theoretically benefit me the most?