Really cool. I think I found my next set of speakers. Dave, can you share what the "looks" of those drivers will be in the different cabinet finishes? Or is that part of the big later reveal?
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Really cool. I think I found my next set of speakers. Dave, can you share what the "looks" of those drivers will be in the different cabinet finishes? Or is that part of the big later reveal?
Sounds exciting! I see some questions about option to retrofit with the Sierra 1-2, but I'm wondering if a guy already has RAAL tweets in the 2 or 2EX is this new one going to offer that much more?
Dave, you said you had trouble telling them apart, right?
Then again, I'm not taking into account the improved bass response tho... that can't be a bad thing either! In either case this new speaker looks like its gonna be something pretty special.
He originally was aiming for a Sierra-1EX which was aimed at improving the Sierra-1's mids and have deeper/punchier bass, but all the prototypes were too similar to the 2EX which was a mere $200 more. Then, in post #4, he says: "but it was also my goal to retail this new speaker at an affordable price and to come in slightly less than the Revel M106."
I'm thinking he has been able to come in significantly less than that with these new drivers.
I just googled the driver that this customized woofer is based on. The 22mm spec is maximum travel (which I take is the limit before damage) but the real usable “linear travel” (i.e. limit before it starts distorting really bad) is 14mm which is still pretty respectable I think.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...saAlG7EALw_wcB
Ah, gotcha. That is quite a bit less but like you said still respectable. Bear in mind it is customized and has a more powerful magnet too tho. I know that doesn't change xmax a whole lot but it should have better control and power handling. I might be more interested to see how well this speaker does with bass than the new tweeter, tho I know it's what's making using that driver possible.
Power ratings from SEAS are always based on thermal compression. The actual power rating on the stock version is 200 watts continuous, 300 watts peak. Our version is a bit higher.
To be more specific, thermal compression (due to lack of proper heat dissipation) is based on a few factors. 1. the voice coil, 2. the former and 3. the woofer movement (the movement of the woofer is what aids the most in cooling)
Regarding the voice coil, most coil windings these days use CCAW (copper clad aluminum wire). This is common because it is inexpensive (copper has become very expensive) and a bit lighter in weight than pure copper. The issue with CCAW is that it isn't as good of an electrical conductor as pure copper (it generates more heat), and it also has much lower thermal conductivity than pure copper (doesn't dissipate that heat as well as pure copper).
Additionally, rather than a single layer of coil windings, we went with a dual layer, which means twice the number of actual windings which provides even better power handling and heat dissipation. Dual layer voice coils are usually limited to woofers designed for subs. There are additional benefits to dual layer coils but this response is about power handling.
We went with pure copper for the voice coil, which is a better conductor than aluminum or CCAW so it naturally generates less heat, and pure copper has twice the thermal conductivity of AL and CCAW, so it is far superior at dissipating that heat.
As also mentioned, this woofer has a titanium former. Titanium is incredibly strong and rigid, and also has very poor thermal conductivity. The voice coil windings are wound around the former, and what generally causes thermal compression is that the former gets very hot due to the windings transferring that heat to the former, which then changes (reduces) the magnetic field, thus thermal compression starts to set in.
Another issue with aluminum and Kapton formers, and this is one of the main reason for woofer failure or shortened usage is that the high heat generated from the windings and transferred to the former, usually ends up slightly deforming the former, and even a fraction of a mm deformation will cause major problems. This is not an issue with Titanium.
Another major cause for woofer failure is when the voice coil gets too hot, it can breakdown the adhesive bond that holds the VC windings in place. When this happens, a winding breaks free and then instant failure. Or, the insulation of the coil wire breaks down and the windings short together, another instant failure. With this woofer, it would take an insane amount of power to cause this.
Another cause of failure is over excursion, and in many woofers, this will cause the former to "slam" into the bottom plate, this is when you hear that loud bang or pop. With an AL former, it will instantly deform the former - not so with titanium. Also, our woofer is using a huge magnet, it would be almost impossible for the the former to slam into the bottom plate because the magnet gap is so long, instead the excursion would be limited by the spider and surround, not by the former slamming into the bottom plate.
In addition, this woofer has a vented pole piece so that airflow generated by the woofer movement, moves through the pole piece providing constant cooling to the coil. This is further aided by the fact that this woofer has massive excursion (moves more air)
Oh, I also forgot to mention that the voice coil is 39mm in diameter! This is a larger diameter than most 8-10" woofers, and similar to many 12" woofers. The larger the coil winding diameter, the greater the winding surface area, the better the heat dissipation. Most high performance 6" woofers use a 25mm coil winding (including our EX woofer, which at this point, we have yet to see even a single blown EX woofer).
Pure copper voice coil windings, dual layers + titanium former, + very large diameter coil are all top-of-the-line and expensive features and (among other benefits) designed for heat dissipation / increased power handling...
Hope this eases any concerns you have :)
Yes, they are similar sounding with regards to the highs and mids. However, I do find the 2EX to be a bit more spacious sounding.
It really comes down to what types of music you listen to regarding whether or not this new speaker will be an improvement. Certainly for home theater, and definitely for any type of rock or metal. Hopefully, we will have Sierra-2EX owners also try this new speaker so that people will post their impressions too.
We have a pair in our demo room just begging for people to come listen... :)
Not quite, but you do bring up a good point.
That 14mm excursion you mentioned is known as Xmax. This is at the maximum point where the same amount of coil windings remain in the magnetic gap so the magnetic field remains linear. Xmax is sometimes also known as Xlin. At 14mm and less, the magnetic field is purely linear.
When Xmax is exceeded, the magnetic strength lessens - this doesn't necessarily cause more distortion, but it is at this point where dynamic compression slowly starts creeping in. On impacts or deep bass, woofers almost always exceed Xmax, it is not something you notice or is audible.
The 22mm excursion I mentioned is also known as Xmech. It is the actual mechanical excursion maximum, which in the case of this woofer, where the spider and surround fully limit further excursion and the windings are out of the magnetic gap. Distortion at this extreme excursion will be huge and I am not sure if reaching this amount of excursion would even be possible as Klippel analysis of this motor assembly reveals that it would take ~ 300 watts into this woofer to exceed Xmax by only +/- 15%
You can see the Bl vs excursion graph here, for the motor assembly we are using:
https://audioxpress.com/assets/uploa...itanWoofer.png
BTW, this shows exceptional Bl linearity!
Dave,
I have been following this thread for days now and find the idea and execution very interesting. Those are some very impressive graphs and numbers! I have an original set of Sierra-1's so if you can include pricing for an upgrade at some point that would be great. I am pretty sure I remember there is an upgrade option to the 2EX drivers, so I am interested in what or if there is one for this new setup.
Dave,
I'm enjoying the reveal! This new LX version looks fantastic. I am wondering this: Since you designed this with the benefit of the Klippel and have optimized everything, including the crossover, has the idea crossed your mind to use the Klippel to tweak/improve existing speakers' crossovers, like the 2EX, etc.? Would be interesting to see what improvements lie beneath the surface!
Wow, I don’t really “need” any more speakers, but I guess I can find a spot for these. :-)
I’m not sure there’s a lot left to do with the 2EX as it already measures extremely well (and sounds great too!). I think the slight imperfections are the result of the trade-offs with using the RAAL 64-10 in a 2-way. Perhaps there’s updates that can be made on the CBM-170 or CMT-340? But not sure what the ROI would be for Dave on the lower end models.
For me I’d love to see a new/updated tower with some of the fancy new drivers Dave has at his disposal , or an “end game” bookshelf using the 70-20XR. 😊
Sounds like a great new addition to the lineup Dave! Well done:)
Also curious if there are any advantages to using these woofers in the Towers? By utilizing the new measuring system, perhaps some gains can be achieved by using the new woofers and redesigning the crossover.
Oh boy, a tower update would get my attention too! Agree with you about the 2EX. It's already a fantastic speaker. The LX definitely looks interesting too, but I'd just buy the whole speakers before I'd swap out my 2EX. Like you said, there isn't a whole lot to improve there. I do know Dave has built at least 1 custom 2 EX with the 70/20 RAAL but I'd have to dig a little to find the post...
Here we go!
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/sho...6952#post66952
Attachment 2329
Those look so nice!
Dave, in all seriousness, I volunteer. I've heard (and owned) every iteration of this speaker, have heard the Towers there at Ascend, and still have S1s, S1 NrTs, and S2-EXs. (Also Duos.) I am confident I can talk about how the new LXs compare to all its brothers.
If you send me an upgrade kit I'll upgrade my current Sierra-1s and do the comparison. I'm on sabbatical right now so I have time to do a thorough listening comparison side-by-side with the S2-EXs. I'll run a variety of genres from classical to jazz to soundtracks to metal and punk. And you know I will write a long and comprehensive review.
Note that I'm not fishing for a free upgrade—I mean, I'd certainly take it, but I am willing to pay—but I am fishing for one to be sent right away since my sabbatical isn't going to be for too much longer.
What do you think, Dave?
I just knew something was happening in this mad scientist's laboratory. It's been far too quiet for far too long! New strategy to develop in total secrecy, but I understand how much easier it must be to not have to deal with constant questions, comments, and guesswork.
If I might ask, what is the bass extension of these new speakers?
Jay
Hey Dave, really awesome looking new speakers! I love the approach that you've taken with these. Any chance you'll be releasing distortion measurements for the LX? Even the regular Klippel distortion panel would be very enlightening on the performance of these new drivers.
I think Dave lost track of time and forgot "tomorrow" was a Saturday!😉
Dave, I'm very active over at Audioholics, one of the regulars. Do you mind me sharing images and info from your posts on the forums over there? I think Ascend Acoustics deserves a little more love and I'm happy to share this announcement and some details with everyone. This looks like a truly unique and differently designed speaker.
I have a nice beefy amp too so these speakers could really shine in my system. My big dilemma is I already have RAAL Towers and I really don't need more speakers. I really do want to hear these now tho...
AVS & now ASR are actively partaking on this news release...fwiw... thou AVS has a specific Ascend owners thread.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...speaker.31787/
Hey Pogre - I have no issues with anyone sharing the info and data across the forums or anywhere for that matter. The LX is not vaporware and we hope to start shipping by the end of this month. A small shipment of woofers and tweeters were supposed to be here already, but they got delivered to the other coast for some reason and are now on "the rail" on their way to us.
Freight is such a mess right now, and these parts are coming from Norway (direct from SEAS) - we usually have never had a single issue with getting deliveries from Norway.
Distortion is excellent, and I will be posting this. Before I do, I wanted to run distortion at a higher level (101dB). However, at this point all I have is my original prototype pair of completely assembled LX. We have demos scheduled for this week and because of the high spl's involved, I can't take the risk of possible damage. There is no way 101dB at 1 meter will damage these speakers, but I have made some errors on setting the levels for the NFS transfer function before, and I can't risk damaging the prototypes. Once we have more components on hand (we are hoping 2 weeks max) - I'll run more distortion measurements.
That all said, distortion is very low - these woofers and tweeters are designed for low distortion.
Hi Jay,
Original Sierra-1 was developed in total secrecy, so I took the same approach this time.
Excellent question, and to be honest, I don't know how to list it. The NFS measurements show the LX has far deeper bass extension than any passive bookshelf speaker measured by ASR (as well as most towers). What I am finding is that manufacturers published bass extension dramatically differs from what the NFS measures. I trust the NFS measurements, but this is a problem and I am not sure how to handle this (one reason for my delay in publishing specs)Quote:
If I might ask, what is the bass extension of these new speakers?
For example, the Paradigm Prestige 15B published specification is -2dB at 57Hz. That is impressive, however, NFS measurements show that actual -2dB point is ~100Hz.
With our LX, the "modeled" -3dB point is an amazing 36Hz. NFS measurements show that actual -3dB = 43Hz. In our listening room, with room gain, I measured nearly flat to 28Hz, which corresponds well to the NFS measured -10dB point of 33Hz.
Do I list specs per NFS measurements, which to the majority of the public, will make it appear as if many other 2-way bookshelf speakers have deeper bass extension, when in reality - they aren't even close.
Take for example Dennis's BMR monitor. He lists the anechoic -2dB point at 36Hz, when in reality, it is much much higher than that. Erin measured it at -3dB at 62Hz - and that is with the original and larger SCAN woofer that extends deeper.
It is also the same for our Sierra-2EX etc.
I don't know what to do regarding listing bass extension....
Dave,
Maybe consult Klippel with these NFS/ASR differential data points?!?
The issue isn't with the NFS measurements (they are brutally accurate) - it is with the outdated inaccurate techniques used by other manufacturers, or just complete exaggeration. In our case, we have previously used accepted close micing of woofer and port, combined with proper weighted averages. (Stereophile measurements are a good example of this, and they also use a MLSSA system)
NFS measurements are the most accurate, by far.
Why not be explicit about what type of +/-db response you are listing, and/or providing multiple explicit data points. I am not sure but isn't NFS generating a free-field response equivalent to anechoic chamber?
Edit: I feel Neumann are the leading example for provided data, eg see https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g#technical-data
So how would one decide between the LX or EX and will we see an update on the duo for a centre that will match the performance of the LX and EX?
Yes, NFS measurements are true anechoic. Neumann are powered monitors, a bit different and not a speaker that any potential purchaser of our LX would be looking at for a comparison. I must take into account how our competitors list bass extension. Other than Revel, Ascend doesn't have any competitors capable of such measurement accuracy. I think I've come up with something that might work, while being honest yet being able to compare to other specs.