Old FV12 with AA S1-V2's

[moonthink]

Hi, I recently picked up an old used but good condition Rythmik FV12 and I am trying to integrate it with my newer Sierra 1-V2's.

I would love any and all info related to:
1) specific info about this older sub, and what settings work best
2) recommended crossover settings
3) help with determining/setting correct phase/delay

My setup is:
Chi-fi preamp (I like seeing volume numbers since it is hard to see the amp's knob, and having bass/treble controls, though usually both set at zero) to Cambridge Audio CXA61.
FV12 Sub is front right, between center console and R speaker. Sierra are on 24" stands, 2' from front wall, and 3-4' from side walls, about 7'-6" apart, and roughly same distance to MLP.

Current setting on sub are 20hz low extension, medium damping. Level at about 10:30, crossover around 60Hz, Phase at about 8:30 (best I could do by ear). Cambridge's sub out has no crossover adjustment ability.

I do have a umik and REW, but while my neighbors tolerate my music (I listen around 60-65db typically), they complain when I do testing.

It sounds pretty good as is, but still not quite right.
FWIW, I had a newer SVS PB-1000 (non pro) down there before the Rythmik, and I can't believe how much cleaner the sound is with even an old FV12.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice...

[Mag_Neato]

Is it possible to run sweeps with REW while the neighbors are not home?

Without a sweep, you are guessing at where your Sierra's are rolling off and how steep of a rolloff slope. Since you cannot hi pass the Sierra's and they are playing full range, I would want to know that so I could get close to properly integrating the sub at the best crossover frequency. The phase knob is basically a distance adjustment to time align the bass with the mains at the listening position. Once you determine the crossover frequency as mentioned above, if you don't have a sound pressure level meter (You can easily download a SPL app to your phone and use the internal phone mic), you will have to rely on your ears to adjust the phase. That will require playing a test tone of the frequency of the crossover point and adjusting the phase knob until you have the loudest output.

Hope that makes sense!

[racrawford65]

Agree with Ed and you should try to run a sweep. You can do a timing reference with REW between sub and FL (or FR) to tell you how much delay is required (in ms).

Rythmik also has an integration guide. See link below (guide is towards bottom of the page).

Damping and extension are what you prefer, generally. For what it's worth, I use 14 hz and high damping on my E15s

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

You may also want to consider adding a miniDSP (Flex is a good choice). You'd probably need to put it between the preamp and the integrated amp. In this way, you can bass manage the Sierra's (e.g. add cross-over) so you aren't getting "double" bass. You can then also EQ sub bass. When I had a separate 2 channel system, I used one for this purpose. I also had set up 4 configurations - 1 for 2.1 with flat bass EQ, 2.1 with house curve, 2.0 with bass eq, 2.0 no eq

[curtis]

I agree with all of the suggestions made so far.


For what it's worth, I use 14 hz and high damping on my E15s

That's how my F15HP is set as well.

[racrawford65]

I agree with all of the suggestions made so far.


That's how my F15HP is set as well.

Only 1 sub? :o

[curtis]

Only 1 sub? :o
yeah yeah...don't rub it in.
I have another one, just not a good place to put it.
So, loaned it to a buddy. He loves it so much, I don't think I will ever see it again.

[moonthink]

Is it possible to run sweeps with REW while the neighbors are not home?

Without a sweep, you are guessing at where your Sierra's are rolling off and how steep of a rolloff slope. Since you cannot hi pass the Sierra's and they are playing full range, I would want to know that so I could get close to properly integrating the sub at the best crossover frequency. The phase knob is basically a distance adjustment to time align the bass with the mains at the listening position. Once you determine the crossover frequency as mentioned above, if you don't have a sound pressure level meter (You can easily download a SPL app to your phone and use the internal phone mic), you will have to rely on your ears to adjust the phase. That will require playing a test tone of the frequency of the crossover point and adjusting the phase knob until you have the loudest output.

Hope that makes sense!

There are a lot of people living next door, and they always seem to be home! Oh well, maybe I'll go have a conversation with them and ask when a good time might be.

The crossover seems easy enough to do by ear (just dial it up until the upper base starts to resonate/over-modulate, then dial it back a hair. Listen and repeat), though I'm sure I could get more accurate with the sweeps.

I relied on my ears for the phase already -- listening for loudest output, and I think it's close. I might try the reverse polarity trick tonight and see if that gets me the same result (wire speakers in reverse, then listen for the bass to get QUIET at the crossover point).

I have an SPL meter app on my phone, and it seems pretty accurate compared to my actual SPL meter at work (I'm a live theater technician/designer), but it's not at all accurate with deep bass. For example, at a recent Peter Gabriel concert, it read 85-88db consistently, but I could feel bass in my body, so it must be a limited frequency range.

Thanks for the reply/advice!

[moonthink]

Agree with Ed and you should try to run a sweep. You can do a timing reference with REW between sub and FL (or FR) to tell you how much delay is required (in ms).

Rythmik also has an integration guide. See link below (guide is towards bottom of the page).

Damping and extension are what you prefer, generally. For what it's worth, I use 14 hz and high damping on my E15s

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

You may also want to consider adding a miniDSP (Flex is a good choice). You'd probably need to put it between the preamp and the integrated amp. In this way, you can bass manage the Sierra's (e.g. add cross-over) so you aren't getting "double" bass. You can then also EQ sub bass. When I had a separate 2 channel system, I used one for this purpose. I also had set up 4 configurations - 1 for 2.1 with flat bass EQ, 2.1 with house curve, 2.0 with bass eq, 2.0 no eq

I will try to run a sweep at some point. The sub is right next to the R speaker, so in theory the delay should be fairly minimal, right?

I read the integration guide, but I felt like it didn't do the best explanation of what each setting specifically does and why set it a certain way.

I have been considering the Flex actually, I have this weird feeling that if I bought it, they'd release a newer/better version the following week! Just my luck... I will most-likely get it at some point, after I have exhausted every option/variable that I can do myself. For me, half the fun of speakers/sound systems is figuring out how to make them sing!

I wonder, the FV12 has speaker level in-and-outs, do you think it also has high pass in this?

Thanks for the reply and advice!

[moonthink]

I agree with all of the suggestions made so far.


That's how my F15HP is set as well.

I had it set to that initially, but when I watched POOR THINGS the other day, there's one section of music with a single instrument, possibly a contra basson? Anyway it had ridiculously low output. I also saw the film in a movie theater and it didn't distort, but my FV12 didn't like it and made some weird sounds (port chuffing maybe?). I keep my main volume pretty low on the amp and sub (around 10:30-11:00 on the knob). Anyway, my system is 80% music and 20% movies/games, so I really don't need sub 20Hz content. That's why I changed it to 20/medium.

[moonthink]

yeah yeah...don't rub it in.
I have another one, just not a good place to put it.
So, loaned it to a buddy. He loves it so much, I don't think I will ever see it again.

My previous sub was an SVS PB-1000 (non pro), and initially I thought to use both, but they sound so different, and I'm having enough trouble getting just the one sub dialed in to perfection. Also, I don't need the extra output, and typically I'm the only one down there, so I don't need better coverage either. Since I haven't measured, I'm not sure about nulls or modes, but I haven't heard anything that would make me suspect a problem there.

[moonthink]

Also (to everyone), what do you think is the modern equivalent to the FV12?

Maybe the LV12M? (same wattage, single port)

Thanks everyone for the replies/advice!

[curtis]

My previous sub was an SVS PB-1000 (non pro), and initially I thought to use both, but they sound so different, and I'm having enough trouble getting just the one sub dialed in to perfection. Also, I don't need the extra output, and typically I'm the only one down there, so I don't need better coverage either. Since I haven't measured, I'm not sure about nulls or modes, but I haven't heard anything that would make me suspect a problem there.
To get it dialed in, you really need to take measurements.
Also, in my opinion, you need "real" bass management. Your preamp doesn't do bass management, so the MiniDSP Flex would be great.

[curtis]

Also (to everyone), what do you think is the modern equivalent to the FV12?

Maybe the LV12M? (same wattage, single port)

Thanks everyone for the replies/advice!
To replace the FV12? I would not worry about replacing it now.

[racrawford65]

yeah yeah...don't rub it in.
I have another one, just not a good place to put it.
So, loaned it to a buddy. He loves it so much, I don't think I will ever see it again.

not rubbing it in... just wondering if I needed to be on the look-out for a matching sub :-).

[racrawford65]

I had it set to that initially, but when I watched POOR THINGS the other day, there's one section of music with a single instrument, possibly a contra basson? Anyway it had ridiculously low output. I also saw the film in a movie theater and it didn't distort, but my FV12 didn't like it and made some weird sounds (port chuffing maybe?). I keep my main volume pretty low on the amp and sub (around 10:30-11:00 on the knob). Anyway, my system is 80% music and 20% movies/games, so I really don't need sub 20Hz content. That's why I changed it to 20/medium.

20 should be fine for music, or the next lower down if any of the music has really low instruments (like a pipe organ or possibly the basson you mentioned). high damping, IMO, is better for music - more articulate. I think that's what Rythmik also recommends in their set up guide.

[moonthink]

To replace the FV12? I would not worry about replacing it now.

To get it dialed in, you really need to take measurements.
Also, in my opinion, you need "real" bass management. Your preamp doesn't do bass management, so the MiniDSP Flex would be great.

The FV12 is pretty old, and luckily still works well, but really was just my way to cheaply try Rythmik subs before buying a newer or better version.

I do plan to do measurements at some point, but like I said, I try to do the best I can by myself first -- that's half the fun/pleasure of making one tweak that really makes a difference.

[racrawford65]

There's several Rythmiks listed for sale on usaudiomart. Might want to take a look if interested in getting a newer model - perhaps one is close to you.

[curtis]

not rubbing it in... just wondering if I needed to be on the look-out for a matching sub :-).
Ha! You are so thoughtful!

[curtis]

There's several Rythmiks listed for sale on usaudiomart. Might want to take a look if interested in getting a newer model - perhaps one is close to you.
You made me look! Some good deals.

There is an F12G not far from me. It would be great for my bedroom. $700 is more than I want to spend...although I am spoiled with Rythmik bass.
Also an L12, but that is in Illinois...$390!! I wonder how much shipping is.

[curtis]

The FV12 is pretty old, and luckily still works well, but really was just my way to cheaply try Rythmik subs before buying a newer or better version.

I do plan to do measurements at some point, but like I said, I try to do the best I can by myself first -- that's half the fun/pleasure of making one tweak that really makes a difference.
Yeah: tweak, listen, measure, repeat.... :D

[racrawford65]

You made me look! Some good deals.

There is an F12G not far from me. It would be great for my bedroom. $700 is more than I want to spend...although I am spoiled with Rythmik bass.
Also an L12, but that is in Illinois...$390!! I wonder how much shipping is.

Me, too. I had my eye on the two E15’s but they are in black oak and my other 2 are regular black….at least that’s my excuse for not pulling the trigger, as well as spelling too much the past month or so in Brazil (wife opened a store there, we bought our cows back, another pair of swans, amongst other things)

[moonthink]

20 should be fine for music, or the next lower down if any of the music has really low instruments (like a pipe organ or possibly the basson you mentioned). high damping, IMO, is better for music - more articulate. I think that's what Rythmik also recommends in their set up guide.

So is the damping setting for the entire bass range? or just the bottom shelf (14/20/28Hz)?

[curtis]

So is the damping setting for the entire bass range? or just the bottom shelf (14/20/28Hz)?
Entire range.

[moonthink]

So my old FV12 has started sometimes making a noise that sounds like rattling...
At first, I thought it was a stack of CD's I had on top of the cabinet, but I moved them and the sound persisted. I removed the grille cover and put one finger on the speaker surround and the rattling stopped.
Since I got it, I haven't run this sub past 12:00 on the volume knob, and my typical listening volume in room is quite low -- usually 50-65db. 70db is the most I've ever done in there and that's a little uncomfortable for me.

The sub was purchased used, so it was shipped and possibly tossed around a bit. And I myself have moved it between floors a couple of times (damn that's much heavier than my PB-1000).

Any ideas what the issue might be? Mis-aligned voice coil?

I've written to Rythmik, but it may take them a while to get back to me, and I though someone here might have some ideas...

[racrawford65]

Did you check that all the screws holding the driver into the cabinet were still tight? Perhaps since it's "old" some may have come a bit loose.

[moonthink]

Did you check that all the screws holding the driver into the cabinet were still tight? Perhaps since it's "old" some may have come a bit loose.

I did not check them with a screw driver, just my hands, and it seemed tight against the cabinet. And pushing on the outer connecting screw plate didn't change the flutter, but one finger on the rubber surround stopped it completely. Thanks for the idea -- I will double check it tonight.

[racrawford65]

No worries.

Another thought just occurred to me. You should also look for rips/tears in the speaker surround "rubber" (I'm assuming). Things do eventually wear out and need repair / replacement.

[moonthink]

No worries.

Another thought just occurred to me. You should also look for rips/tears in the speaker surround "rubber" (I'm assuming). Things do eventually wear out and need repair / replacement.

I didn't notice any tears, but I also didn't specifically look for them, just glanced over everything. Good thought -- I'll check it when I get home. Thanks again!

[moonthink]

I could not find any tears in the surround or speaker itself. All the screws that are there seem tight, but one is missing. And the screws that remain seem to have a tiny bit of glue (or silicon maybe?) under them. But also, I couldn't recreate the issue today, which I guess is good, but makes me wonder what issue this could be?
I even played the same music that I noticed the rattling/flapping sound, and nothing. Weird, right?

[racrawford65]

thanks for updating with your findings.
anyways, I'd not worry about it since you couldn't recreate it and, I assume, the bass from the sub sounds fine.

[moonthink]

thanks for updating with your findings.
anyways, I'd not worry about it since you couldn't recreate it and, I assume, the bass from the sub sounds fine.

I talked to the previous owner, who apparently opened up the sub to take pictures of the electronics inside. They suggested that I open it to see if any wires or insulation might be coming in contact with the speaker. Sounds reasonable. While I couldn't recreate it last night, it has happened on more than one occasion, so I think I'll open it up and do a little exploratory surgery.

I had an SVS PB-1000 down there before the FV12, and I was surprised at how much better the old FV12 was than the SVS. I'd hate to have to go back to that. So it's either fix this one up or buy a newer one.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

[racrawford65]

no worries. agree - sounds reasonable to open it up (either pull the speaker and/or the amp).

[davef]

I could not find any tears in the surround or speaker itself. All the screws that are there seem tight, but one is missing. And the screws that remain seem to have a tiny bit of glue (or silicon maybe?) under them. But also, I couldn't recreate the issue today, which I guess is good, but makes me wonder what issue this could be?
I even played the same music that I noticed the rattling/flapping sound, and nothing. Weird, right?

It is critical that the missing screw be replaced or at least fill the open hole. An open screw hole will cause a serious air-leak and unexpected internal pressure changes, this will cause problems.

[moonthink]

So I finally opened up the sub last night and made sure none of the wires and insulation was going to come in contact with the driver. The previous owner had opened it up to take pictures of the insides for the ad. I don't think they were careful to put the driver back in the same orientation. The driver has +/- wires going to one side for the speaker, and +/- to the other side for the servo. I re-oriented the speaker so that wires were on either sides (9:00 and 3:00), which seemed to most logical solution. It had been at like 1:00 and 7:00 when I removed it. I also found a screw to fill in for the missing one.

I only had one night listening to it so far, but it seems to have solved the issue (which only occurred sometimes, but more often lately). Thanks everyone for the advice!

[davef]

So I finally opened up the sub last night and made sure none of the wires and insulation was going to come in contact with the driver. The previous owner had opened it up to take pictures of the insides for the ad. I don't think they were careful to put the driver back in the same orientation. The driver has +/- wires going to one side for the speaker, and +/- to the other side for the servo. I re-oriented the speaker so that wires were on either sides (9:00 and 3:00), which seemed to most logical solution. It had been at like 1:00 and 7:00 when I removed it. I also found a screw to fill in for the missing one.

I only had one night listening to it so far, but it seems to have solved the issue (which only occurred sometimes, but more often lately). Thanks everyone for the advice!

so far so good. Fingers crossed!