How far up the chain is worth it in a compromised room?

[zeeke42]

My wife and I recently redesigned our living room. Priority was on design and livability with audio way down the priority list (I care, my wife doesn't at all). The original plan was to wall mount the TV with a media cabinet in the corner for the AVR, PC, etc. Once we saw the furniture in the space, we pivoted to putting the media cabinet centered with the TV on top. 2705

Originally we were going to put the left speaker in the cabinet, center under the TV, and right in the bookshelf on the side, but running the wires in an aesthetic way was a no go. As a result, we're now limited to all 3 front speakers within the cabinet. (A BDI Corridor 8177 https://www.bdiusa.com/products/corridor-8177-modern-tv-stand-media-storage-drawer). Similarly, wiring to the surrounds was problematic, so I purchased a DYNASTY WSA-5RP (speaker level wireless transmitter + wireless receiver with 50Wx2 class D amp built in) which can be hidden under the couch with wires just coming up to surrounds on the side tables.

When I set up my existing gear this way I discovered several problems. My L/R Paradim Titans woofer surrounds have given up, as has the driver in my Paradigm PDR12 sub.

Current equipment:
Denon AVR-S720W (Audyssey MultiEQ) - driving L/C/R
DYNASTY WSA-5RP - driving surrounds
Paradigm Atom L/R. (borrowed from my office 2ch system, replacing blown Titans)
Paradigm CC-170 center
Paradim ADP70 surrounds (small dipoles)

One of my best friends and longtime fellow audio traveler (we went to the original Head-Fi International Meet together years ago) is a happy Ascend Customer. After reading a bunch of threads here, I'm sold on Ascend as a company. Ascend feels like a spiritual successor to the old Paradigm I loved back in the NRC days before they seemingly lost their way: measurement driven pragmatic bang for the buck speakers.

Given all the compromises in layout, I leaned to the Signature series. However, the CBM-170SE is 9" wide (high in my situation, since all 3 will have to be horizontal), and I only have 8" available. L/R dimension limits: 17.25x8x18.5. C dimension limits: 25.5x8x16 (all inches). With an 8.25in depth limit, I have a full width of 61.5.

If only there was a CBM-170SE2 with the same 7.5" width as the CMT-340SE2, I'd be all set. I guess I could do the 340 center with the HTM200, but having bigger bass drivers in the center than the mains feels all kinds of wrong to me.

Surrounds wise, I may stick with the ADP-70s for a while or upgrade to HTM200s. Historically, I preferred the dipoles given the close position next to the couch, but maybe that's old school.

I started looking at the Sierra line and playing the classic audiophile game of, well if I spend a few hundred more, I can get this, but then a few hundred more again and that etc etc. While I could stretch all the way to 3x 2EXV2 or 2x2EXV2+Duo. I'm guessing it's probably not worth it given the layout compromises. Sub wise, no-sub, replacing the driver in my PDR12, and buying an L12 or LV12M are all potentially on the table. Location would likely be either back left corner, hidden by table and couch with wireless, or front left corner depending on the new furniture plan.

I'm not opposed to upgrading AVR too if more modern room correction is significantly better than the first gen Audyssey I have now.

Hopefully some of you made it through that wall of text and can help me with my analysis paralysis.

TLDR: Limited by WAF and logistics to L/C/R all inside a ~60 inch wide cabinet and wireless surrounds beside a very wide couch on back wall is high end gear even worth it?

ETA: overall room dimensions are roughly 20x20 (not square though). Left side is a sliding glass door that will be covered by drapery. Right side wall is built in bookshelves with an opening to another room in the middle. Front mid-right opening is 2 stairs up to a hallway that opens up to the rest of the downstairs.

[racrawford65]

Despite the limited options on placement for the mains, you may still want to consider the Sierra line (more future proof - what if you move? what if you are able to place the speakers somewhere along the front wall on stands (even close to the sides of the entertainment center)? what if you can place the speakers on top of the entertainment center instead of in it?, what if you can wall mount the speakers to left/right of tv? etc.). No way to run front l/r wires along baseboard (or on top) or under carpet (if carpeted)?

Have you looked at the LX model as opposed to the EX? May work better if placement is in the cabinet. Also, for music with the LX, could likely forego a sub (or two :-) ). Movies might be fine, too, depending on how you watch.

Finally, maybe focus on left / right to get the best within budget and use a phantom center in the meantime?

[SunByrne]

While the room isn't ideal, it's not a complete loss. The biggest problem is the relatively small separation between L and R. That'll put the drivers about five feet apart, which isn't great but it's not the complete end of the world. Like rcrawford said, if you could put stands on either side of the cabinet that would help. But my guess is that you probably can't for WAF reasons. Mostly that will hurt your imaging a little.

So no, not optimal, but I don't think the situation is bad enough that the Sierras aren't a meaningful upgrade. I would get Sierras for L/C/R. The Sierras being 7.5" wide looks like it's almost perfect for the space you have. This is the universe telling you what to do—don't fight it, just go along with it.

I would get the LX, not the EX (or EXV2) here. I own both and for HT I'd get the LX every time. It looks like you'll be sitting with your ears more than a bit higher than the tweeters. The EXs are lovely but they do not match the LXs on vertical dispersion--the EXs really do lose something if you can't be tweeter-level. Also, with the LXs you don't have to turn the tweeters sideways if you use them horizontally.

If Sierras are going to stretch your budget, start with no sub. The LXs are pretty stunning with respect to bass performance for a bookshelf speaker. Add a sub later if you find yourself wanting it for movies, but you really don't need it for music unless you're doing a lot of pipe organ or low synth (e.g., EDM).

[zeeke42]

Thank you both for the suggestion of the LX. I foolishly skipped over it, figuring "why would I want a lower model to save only ~10% on cost?". Now that I read a bunch of LX impressions, it sounds pretty perfect for my use case as most of the impressions call out the more room filling sound and lower position sensitivity due to the wide dispersion.

Now I just need to decide if I want to spend the money for the truly high end sierras or just basically modernize what I have with HTM200. If I stay on the cheap side, do you think a 340SE2 center with HTM200 L/R would be better than just three HTM200?

[racrawford65]

Are you mostly music or movies? If more movies, I'd do the 340SE2 center.

IMO, would definitely need a sub (unless you don't want bass) with the HTM200's. I'm currently using a pair of HTM200 + Luna Duo V2 center at our other house in Rio and, IMO, lacking in the bass department. One of these days, we'll move more stuff down to Brazil (perhaps permanently if my wife could make up her mind - I'd be there in a heartbeat) - so it may just be my LX's or it could be my whole setup :-)

Personally, if it's in budget and don't want to wonder what if?, I'd go for the LX (either 3 across the front or 2 for LR, and add the 3rd later for center). In the long run, it may be better to spend more now than spend twice if/when the upgrade bug bites.

That said, you might want to call Dina/Dave at Ascend and discuss your needs, room, etc. They'll give you the best recommendation for your situation without trying to upsell.

[N Boros]

The compromise issues for aesthetic concerns that will affect the sounds quality are the following:

1. Placing speakers inside of cabinet.
2. Left and right speakers are too close together.
3. Seating area is right on back wall.

If aesthetics are the big priority here, then the Sierra line can really help with that.
Furthermore, they are just better speakers in terms of performance. Outside of that, ask yourself how much you are willing to nudge any of those 3 issues which can affect the sound quality. Now much are you willing to nudge the seat off of the back wall to help with bass and getting you closer to the front speakers to help with left/right separation? Would you be willing to look for an alternative cabinet so that the speakers are not all in there? The Sierra line of speakers are gorgeous, where you might be able to have them help with aesthetic concerns, if they are out of the cabinet in the room. Maybe getting towers in that line would help, as it can be difficult to get good looking speaker stands. Though I'm sure you could fine good looking speaker stands if you are willing to spend the money or even have them custom made. It is really up to you. Any and all of these areas that you are willing to nudge can help.

[SunByrne]

Thank you both for the suggestion of the LX. I foolishly skipped over it, figuring "why would I want a lower model to save only ~10% on cost?".

Ahh, the curse of Sierra pricing. The issue is mostly that the RAAL tweeter is just an expensive component. Oddly, the LX is, for most purposes, actually a better speaker than the EXv2. There are some edge cases where the EX is better, but HT is not one of them.

[N Boros]

Ahh, the curse of Sierra pricing. The issue is mostly that the RAAL tweeter is just an expensive component. Oddly, the LX is, for most purposes, actually a better speaker than the EXv2. There are some edge cases where the EX is better, but HT is not one of them.

In the long LX or EX thread a guy discussed how he found the narrow vertical dispersion of the Raal ribbon tweeter to be an asset in Atmos, for home theater use. He talked about how on the Xbox there is a pin you can move around the room and he was able to more precisely locate it having Real ribbon tweeter for the bed layer. He is saying the narrower vertical dispersion of the Raal provides better vertical channel separation and thus more accurate location of objects moving around up there. I can try to look for the post if someone else is interested, so I’m not paraphrasing.

What he said was enough to convince me to upgrade my Sierra 2s I use as mains in my 7.2.4 Atmos setup to EXV2 rather than LX. The upgrade price is similar, but my ceiling height is 7 ft, and I don’t want to mess up the great overhead experience that I have right now. I’ll probably upgrade in the next year, when I get a chance.

[racrawford65]

To further N Boros' post, as I was considering upgrading my S2s (used as surrounds) to either LX or EXv2, after communication with Dave he recommended the EXv2 upgrade for my situation.

N Boros - curious, what are you using for the ATMOS height speakers?

[N Boros]

To further N Boros' post, as I was considering upgrading my S2s (used as surrounds) to either LX or EXv2, after communication with Dave he recommended the EXv2 upgrade for my situation.

N Boros - curious, what are you using for the ATMOS height speakers?

I'm using Sonance speakers for in-ceiling overheads. Dave recommended them for people looking for in-ceiling overhead speakers that would nicely match the Ascend speakers in the base layer. He recommended a more expensive model, I just went with the MAG6R that were a budget line speaker from Sonanace. I wouldn't buy them at the list price, as I think that there are many better alternatives for $700 per pair. But, they frequently go on sale for much much less than that, like right now at around $170 a pair. There is even a matching backer box, that I picked up too, which helps reduce transmission of sound into a room above and keeps dirt, dust and other stuff from getting into the speaker.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sonance-mag6r-mag-series-6-1-2-2-way-in-ceiling-speakers-pair-paintable-white/5852330.p?skuId=5852330

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sonance-medium-round-retro-enclosure-visual-performance-retrofit-enclosure-for-select-6-5-in-ceiling-speakers-2-pack-black/6290878.p?skuId=6290878

I use these speakers at top front and top rear speakers, following Dolby's guidelines with the vertical angles from the main listening position. These speakers sound great. I don't think the MAG8R's are necessary for Atmos, unless you have a huge room with very high ceilings. With a good Atmos mix, like John Wick, they sound phenomenal. The scenes with rain overhead and all around sounds just like being out in the rain. But, more modern mixes also can sound very good through the Atmos upmixer too.

After picking up an inexpensive Dayton audio amp to power my top rears, since my Denon will only power 9 speakers, I have only spent a little under $600 for the speakers, backer boxes and amp together. I couldn't be happier with the results. I think that people that have heard Atmos and said that they didn't think it was worth the money and only a subtle difference in the sound, either have not properly located in-ceiling or on-ceiling speakers, or they haven't heard a good Atmos soundtrack. Maybe they spent too much money on their overhead speakers, in some cases. If I spent $6,000 rather than $600, I'd really hope to hear a transformative experience, which might not be realistic.

[racrawford65]

Thanks, N Boros

I agree that you don't need to go overboard on Atmos speakers. I'm currently using HTM200's high mounted on front & rear walls for Atmos. It works pretty good although have been toying with idea of in-ceilings although my ceilings are tiered.

[N Boros]

Thanks, N Boros

I agree that you don't need to go overboard on Atmos speakers. I'm currently using HTM200's high mounted on front & rear walls for Atmos. It works pretty good although have been toying with idea of in-ceilings although my ceilings are tiered.

I think getting them overhead and aimed down can likely made a big difference. In your case, since you have the speakers you might be able to test it out with your HTM 200s to see. If you can temporarily attach speakers in the proper locations facing down so that you can listen for yourself to a couple of good Atmos soundtracks. Yes there might be a couple of holes for each speaker to repair, but those small holes are easier to fix than if you have large holes that you cut out for in-ceiling speakers, if you don’t find it is noticeably better. Plus, if you do like the way the HTM 200s sound, overhead facing down, then you would likely cut out where the two small screws held them anyways, when you permanently replace them with in-ceiling speakers.

This sounds like a pain to try to do. Maybe if you have a couple of ladders and can borrow a couple of others from some of your neighbors, that can work too. Just trying to see if there is a noticeable difference in the better placement.

[racrawford65]

I do have them angled down at the moment.

I have a few ladders that I could use to try, depending if there's enough room on the ceiling to place them better. That said, I could always mount the HTM's to the ceiling if it works better. I don't think my wife would complain (too much :-) ). Another issue is distance from rear to seat as I may not get the proper angle.

[N Boros]

I do have them angled down at the moment.

I have a few ladders that I could use to try, depending if there's enough room on the ceiling to place them better. That said, I could always mount the HTM's to the ceiling if it works better. I don't think my wife would complain (too much :-) ). Another issue is distance from rear to seat as I may not get the proper angle.

I havenÂ’t A/Bed a setup like you have with overhead speakers placed according to Dolby guidelines. However, anecdotally many people that do have them placed high up front and and high in the back angled down have said that they didnÂ’t get much overhead effect from the sounds that are supposed to be overhead. Most of what is mixed is done with 4 overhead speakers angled down though, so it is nice if speakers in your room replicate that, for the most accurate possible presentation. Definitely try rigging them up on ladders and such listening for a couple days to see if you think it sounds better though. I donÂ’t want you to go through all the trouble involved in mounting speakers on or in the ceiling only to find they donÂ’t sound that much different. My gut is telling me that they have to though, just because of the angle of the speakers versus the angle where the sounds should be coming from.

If you and your wife are fine with HTM 200s mounted to the ceiling and aimed down, then those likely will be as good if not better than in-ceiling speakers, since it sounds like your ceiling height is at least 8 or 9 feet high. I couldnÂ’t do that since I am in a basement with only 7 ft ceilings. The HTM 200s likely have better components than the Sonance speakers, due to AscendÂ’s unusually low profit margins. Here is a thread where a guy made the HTMs mounted as in-ceiling speakers look nice. I think you might have already seen it though, since you posted in the thread.

https://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7035-Advice-Request-Atmos-w-HTM-200-SE

[racrawford65]

Thanks, N Boros.

Yes, my ceiling is tiered (3 tiers). I think it starts at 9 (or 10) feet, then a foot for each additional tier. Luckily it's a one-story so easy access.

Appreciate you posting the link to the htm mounting thread - saves me from searching for it should I try them out on-ceiling. One of these days when I have some time.

Best
Robert

[N Boros]

Thanks, N Boros.

Yes, my ceiling is tiered (3 tiers). I think it starts at 9 (or 10) feet, then a foot for each additional tier. Luckily it's a one-story so easy access.

Appreciate you posting the link to the htm mounting thread - saves me from searching for it should I try them out on-ceiling. One of these days when I have some time.

Best
Robert

Happy to help. In the link I shared, someone installed them as in wall speakers. I was imply providing this an example where it can be made to look good, however I don’t know if I would install them like that as they weren’t designed to be in wall speakers as far as the ceiling now acting like part of the front baffle. Not sure how much they would need to protrude from the ceiling so that this is no longer an issue. Dave can surely tell you if you go that route. If you get time to try it please post what you find. I’m interested to see if you find one better than the other.

[racrawford65]

If I do try them on ceiling, I'd not flush mount (don't want to cut big holes in the ceiling). I'd either use my current mounts or possibly long bolts into the ceiling and existing inserts (and possibly an additional on the opposite side). I recall a post where someone did the latter. I think they'd hold in my ceiling as there is already plywood for the framing.

It would definitely be a project for when the wife was out for a day or so.

[natetg57]

When I had an Atmos setup, I covered my HTM-200s with white vinyl and redid the grills with white cloth. Made them blend in to the white ceiling much better.

[racrawford65]

Thanks for the suggestion, natetg57. I had thought about that (or painting the cabinets, although that may not be possible). The other idea is to paint the ceiling black - at least the tiered parts that are higher than the rest of the house (open floor plan).

[zeeke42]

Just to update; I scored a great deal on a lightly used set of Sierra LX on ebay. Before I even plugged them in, I was blown away by the quality of the cabinets. If you told me they were a solid block of wood, I would probably believe you. I haven't had time to reconfigure the living room, so I just put them on my desk for an initial listening test. My SMSL SA-36 class D amp appears to have died, so I bodged a pile of adapters together to run them from my DIY AMB M^3 headphone amp. The amp has a discrete mosfet output stage capable of ~2.5W RMS into 8 ohms, more than enough for moderate levels near field.

The sound quality is excellent. I'm blown away by the amount and clarity of bass from a bookshelf speaker with a tiny amp. I definitely don't see any need for a sub for music listening. I found myself stopping to listen for fine details in the music in a way I often do with headphones, but rarely with speakers. I can't wait to try them in the big room and feed them some more power. I'm going to try both with my existing center and phantom center for now. A 3rd LX for center duty is probably my next upgrade.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[zeeke42]

Well, it didn't take long; I scored a used LX center and set up all 3 in the living room at the same time. I'm happy I just went straight for the LX. If I had bought the 200 / 340 setup, even if it was 95% as good, I would've always wondered what I was missing.

The LX's sound incredible. My wife and I binged "A Spy Among Friends" across the day I switched over, so it was some good comparison. Dialog is so much clearer and I can really hear nuance of the rooms around it in a way I never could before. I think the center was really the weak point of my old paradigm system. I also watched Arrival, and the bass impact of the LX is just incredible for a bookshelf speaker. My wife commented that she felt the impact in the bedroom above the living room. I'll definitely have to find a way to set some bass rolloff if I watch anything after she's actually trying to sleep.

Given how good thing are already, I decided to just finish off the system. So, an Onkyo TX-7100r from Black Friday sale arrived yesterday, and I placed an order with Ascend for a pair of HTM-200 to replace the surrounds and a Rhythmik L12. I ran a quick Dirac Live cal last night with only a few points and the software is so much nicer than the ancient audyssey I had before. No real comment on the sound yet; only had a little time last night. Once the rest arrives, I'll run a real calibration and dial things in.

I think once that order arrives, this is an endgame setup for me unless I ever have a dedicated room in the future. Thanks to everyone who commented, especially SunByrne for the LX suggestion.

[jambarino]

Well, it didn't take long; I scored a used LX center and set up all 3 in the living room at the same time. I'm happy I just went straight for the LX. If I had bought the 200 / 340 setup, even if it was 95% as good, I would've always wondered what I was missing.

The LX's sound incredible. My wife and I binged "A Spy Among Friends" across the day I switched over, so it was some good comparison. Dialog is so much clearer and I can really hear nuance of the rooms around it in a way I never could before. I think the center was really the weak point of my old paradigm system. I also watched Arrival, and the bass impact of the LX is just incredible for a bookshelf speaker. My wife commented that she felt the impact in the bedroom above the living room. I'll definitely have to find a way to set some bass rolloff if I watch anything after she's actually trying to sleep.

Given how good thing are already, I decided to just finish off the system. So, an Onkyo TX-7100r from Black Friday sale arrived yesterday, and I placed an order with Ascend for a pair of HTM-200 to replace the surrounds and a Rhythmik L12. I ran a quick Dirac Live cal last night with only a few points and the software is so much nicer than the ancient audyssey I had before. No real comment on the sound yet; only had a little time last night. Once the rest arrives, I'll run a real calibration and dial things in.

I think once that order arrives, this is an endgame setup for me unless I ever have a dedicated room in the future. Thanks to everyone who commented, especially SunByrne for the LX suggestion.

That's awesome. I ran a trio of LX's for my front LCR for a few months and even now after upgrading to the ELX Ribbon Towers I still occasionally miss the LX's,they really are great speakers. I wish I would have kept them for a different room.

[racrawford65]

Yeah, it's hard to part with (sell) any of the Ascend speakers. The only one I've sold is an S2 that I was using as a center along with S2's for FL/FR. When I upgraded to Towers, two S2's went to surround duty.

[curtis]

Yeah, it's hard to part with (sell) any of the Ascend speakers. The only one I've sold is an S2 that I was using as a center along with S2's for FL/FR. When I upgraded to Towers, two S2's went to surround duty.
I gave my original S1's to my Parents, as well as some original CBM-170s and CMT-340's. The 340's are actually stored in their garage now, and the rest of the system is almost never used.

I have another pair of original CBM-170s stored in my garage.

[zeeke42]

Just to close off the thread, final system ended up:
Onkyo NR7100 AVR
3x Sierra LX L/C/R
2x HTM-200 surround connected to dynasty wireless amp
Rythmik L12 connected via SVS Soundpath wireless

The system sounds incredible and I think I'll be happy with it for a long time. I see no reason to change anything unless I somehow set up a dedicated room where I can go crazy with atmos etc. The biggest improvements over the old setup are definitely dialog clarity and bass impact. I also notice much improved spatial sense in the surrounds moving from dipoles to monopoles and getting more midbass from the surrounds.

I also notice that we're listening louder. On the old system, we usually set the mv at -30 or so, now it usually ends up at -24ish. At first I thought it was a calibration issue but my son was watching TV in the living room while I was cooking in the kitchen and it was noticeably louder. My theory is that the new system is less harsh at higher levels and has better dynamics, so it's less fatiguing to listen a higher levels. Being able to comfortably turn it up a bit gives a real sense of it being a theater-like experience instead of just watching TV at home.

All in all, I'm very happy I took the 'buy once cry once' approach and can enjoy everything for the next decade without wondering what if.

[racrawford65]

Congrats on the new system.

[davef]

Just to close off the thread, final system ended up:
Onkyo NR7100 AVR
3x Sierra LX L/C/R
2x HTM-200 surround connected to dynasty wireless amp
Rythmik L12 connected via SVS Soundpath wireless

The system sounds incredible and I think I'll be happy with it for a long time. I see no reason to change anything unless I somehow set up a dedicated room where I can go crazy with atmos etc. The biggest improvements over the old setup are definitely dialog clarity and bass impact. I also notice much improved spatial sense in the surrounds moving from dipoles to monopoles and getting more midbass from the surrounds.

I also notice that we're listening louder. On the old system, we usually set the mv at -30 or so, now it usually ends up at -24ish. At first I thought it was a calibration issue but my son was watching TV in the living room while I was cooking in the kitchen and it was noticeably louder. My theory is that the new system is less harsh at higher levels and has better dynamics, so it's less fatiguing to listen a higher levels. Being able to comfortably turn it up a bit gives a real sense of it being a theater-like experience instead of just watching TV at home.

All in all, I'm very happy I took the 'buy once cry once' approach and can enjoy everything for the next decade without wondering what if.

Excellent, very happy to read this.

Enjoy!!!

[Mahawkma]

Curious on how well the Dynasty wireless amp and Soundpath are working. I need a solution to avoid trying to figure out how to run wires to my surrounds and subs. @Dave Any other suggestions from you for a solution?

Thanks!

Hawk

[davef]

Curious on how well the Dynasty wireless amp and Soundpath are working. I need a solution to avoid trying to figure out how to run wires to my surrounds and subs. @Dave Any other suggestions from you for a solution?

Thanks!

Hawk

I am sorry Hawk, I have zero experience with any of these types of wireless systems. Biggest issues would be latency so I never recommend or use them.

[Mahawkma]

Neither do I and I have never used them because of latency but, if the technology has improved and the latency dropped, it would so much easier. . .

[zeeke42]

The latency isn't bad; only about 20ms. Well within the correction range of my AVR. The L/C/R are much farther from the seating position, so it nets out to a 13ms delay on LCR IIRC. The dynasty had a few cracks and pops early on when my wife was using the wifi in her office next door, but I moved the AP farther from it and they seem to have stopped. The soundpath induced some awful ground loop hum when I plugged its power cable into the USB port on my AVR, but I moved it to a separate power adapter and it went away. The wireless stuff isn't ideal, but if the choice is between no surround/sub or wireless, the choice was pretty clear to me.

Continuing to really enjoy the system. My wife and I started watching "Slow Horses" on AppleTV+ and it's sounding awesome. It's the first Atmos content I've watched (Netflix requires the highest tier plan to get Atmos). I'm not sure if it's psycho-somatic, atmos actually making a difference, or the mixing of the show, but the spatial effects, even with just 5.1 are very immersive. There was a scene last night where a character is blasting music inside a car and the perspective switches between inside and outside and the window opens/closes a few times. It sounded incredibly realistic. Now I'm really wishing I could convince the wife on heights to really see what Atmos can do.