Fun ELX Demo Today

[davef]

We have had so many people here for demo's lately, but this one today was fun.

This customer wanted to compare ELX Titan Towers to his Focal Aria 948, which originally sold for a bit over $6K for the pair.

The Aria's aren't even considered large towers, but they completely dwarfed the ELX.

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Anyone comparing these two speakers would easily make the assumption that the Aria's have much deeper and punchier bass and sound "bigger".

Well, this was absolutely not the case... Song after song, the owner of the Aria's stated the ELX sounded bigger and had deeper and punchier bass, and I absolutely agreed. In fact, my eyes played tricks on me several times such that I had to go and actually confirm which speaker pair was playing.

I will say, other than a slight sensitivity advantage in favor of the Aria (about 3dB), the ELX Titans trounced them.

Lugging those Focal's around was not fun (80+ pounds) but the owner is now planning to sell them and buy ELX Titans.

I continue to stand by my statement, there is no speaker out there at any price that I would not be comfortable with putting our ELX up against in a proper A/B comparison.

[curtis]

Wow! Excellent!

What kind of car did he bring the Focals in? Truck?

That is a lot of work for a comparison. I am glad his curiosity got him.

[davef]

Wow! Excellent!

What kind of car did he bring the Focals in? Truck?

That is a lot of work for a comparison. I am glad his curiosity got him.

It was an SUV, not sure what model but it seemed like the Focal's just barely fit. I too was surprised he brought them down. I would've liked to have run a full suite of NFS measurements on one, but after seeing the size and feeling the weight - I realized this old man might have put himself back in the ICU trying to get one of these positioned properly on the NFS :eek:

He was auditioning at our office for at least 3 hours, real nice guy. Not sure if he is a member of our forum, hopefully he is and he will make a post. This is the best part of what I do, I really enjoy meeting as many people as possible.

I think we have another demo this Thursday.

[curtis]

Demo'ing and listening is always enjoyable at Ascend!

I went to Santee on Saturday 5/13 for my youngest cousin's wedding, then came back up on Sunday, and was thinking about asking if you were going to be available for a visit.

Glad I didn't try. The traffic down was horrendous. I left Manhattan Beach at 11am and it took me three hours. Sunday morning at 9am wasn't so bad on the way back, but still A LOT of cars.

[msound]

Someone did a comparison with the same focal speaker against the v1 tower and preferred the towers. I'm definitely not surprised. I'm more interested in higher end Focal, TAD, PS Audio, Kef blade, Martin Logan's, magnapan, ....comparison :)

[msound]

Dave,

I'm very curious on what speaker did you personally put the ELX up with before it was finalize and released?

[davef]

Dave,

I'm very curious on what speaker did you personally put the ELX up with before it was finalize and released?

Many different models, and it is an ongoing process. However, I do not feel comfortable posting this publicly unless a consumer brings speakers down to our office to compare.

There are some comparisons to high end Revels (BE models) in a thread on ASR.

[davef]

Someone did a comparison with the same focal speaker against the v1 tower and preferred the towers. I'm definitely not surprised. I'm more interested in higher end Focal, TAD, PS Audio, Kef blade, Martin Logan's, magnapan, ....comparison :)

It was really more about a comparison in bass response, both punch and extension. We have had so many inquiries from consumers stating it isn't possible for our 6" LX woofers to compete with 8", 10" or even 12" woofers - not only do they compete, they surpass in most cases. And, not just the actual woofers, but the size of our ELX cabinet is so small compared to the competition. Most consumers simply can't comprehend the fact that these small towers can sound so huge and have such impressive bass.

[davef]

Demo'ing and listening is always enjoyable at Ascend!

I went to Santee on Saturday 5/13 for my youngest cousin's wedding, then came back up on Sunday, and was thinking about asking if you were going to be available for a visit.

Glad I didn't try. The traffic down was horrendous. I left Manhattan Beach at 11am and it took me three hours. Sunday morning at 9am wasn't so bad on the way back, but still A LOT of cars.

Yeah, traffic has been crazy lately! You know you are always welcome Curtis, next visit we need to get on the pickleball court!

[msound]

Many different models, and it is an ongoing process. However, I do not feel comfortable posting this publicly unless a consumer brings speakers down to our office to compare.

There are some comparisons to high end Revels (BE models) in a thread on ASR.

That is totally understandable! But can I ask what was the most expensive price speaker you compared to? Price question, not brand. Thanks Dave! My ELX upgrade kit is on order, but I already jump the gun and changed my signature. :)

[SunByrne]

It was really more about a comparison in bass response, both punch and extension. We have had so many inquiries from consumers stating it isn't possible for our 6" LX woofers to compete with 8", 10" or even 12" woofers - not only do they compete, they surpass in most cases. And, not just the actual woofers, but the size of our ELX cabinet is so small compared to the competition. Most consumers simply can't comprehend the fact that these small towers can sound so huge and have such impressive bass.

I think it’s excursion that people really don’t get. The total volume of air moved is (roughly) area times excursion, and I suspect people only think about the area part. Maybe you should post of video clip of the LX woofer cranking out near maximum excursion—it’s really quite a thing to watch. They really move an amazing amount of air. I still sometimes can’t believe the bass that the Sierra-LXs deliver.

I’m a bass player, and it’s no coincidence that one of the best sounding bass guitar cabs out there is the Phil Jones C8, which uses 5” drivers. Sure, it uses 8 of them, but that’s for volume. High-excursion drivers FTW!

[davef]

That is totally understandable! But can I ask what was the most expensive price speaker you compared to? Price question, not brand. Thanks Dave! My ELX upgrade kit is on order, but I already jump the gun and changed my signature. :)

Thanks for ordering the ELX upgrade kit. We have compared to speakers ranging in price from $4k/pair to $12K/pair.

[FallenCow]

Have you compared these with the new MartinLogan XT100/200? I couldn’t be happier with the ELX ribbons but the MLs just look so good and gave a ton of buzz. Curious how they compare.

[davef]

Have you compared these with the new MartinLogan XT100/200? I couldn’t be happier with the ELX ribbons but the MLs just look so good and gave a ton of buzz. Curious how they compare.

Yes, and rather intensive listening sessions. I personally found both the floorstanders and bookshelf unlistenable due to nearly instant fatigue. A customer lent me the bookshelf speakers and I ran an NFS spin to see if what I heard was revealed in the spins, and yes - the measurements very much matched up with what I heard. I believe this was covered in our main ELX thread, with some comments from a customer who also listened to the ML floorstanders.

I personally don't understand all the buzz but I do agree that the speakers are aesthetically stunning.

[CarloM]

I may or may not have been in the room when the B100s were demoed by Dave...

As someone who has listened to the F100 towers in multiple Best Buy/Magnolia listening rooms, A/B'ing it with other towers in their showroom, it literally sounds like the Loudness function was baked into the speakers.

For those who remember the loudness button in older A/V receivers from the 80's and earlier, it was designed to offset the old phenomenon of, as you lower the volume on speakers, the bass and upper treble fall off faster than the mids. So by pressing the loudness button, the older receivers just boosted the bass and treble (kind of like a smile shaped EQ). But you were only supposed to engage the loudness function at low volumes so that at those levels you got the bass and treble back. But if you kept it on at loud volumes, you just got bass and treble boosted inappropriately. That's what the new ML line sounds like to me. It sounds great at low to low-medium volumes, but put it at say 70db average (or higher) and then the bass (for the towers, as the bookshelves don't have the same bass extension) and the trebles are boosted inappropriately.

So I think a lot of the internet reviewers who are more "subjective focused" who love the new ML line may be falling for the old "louder is better" audio phenomenon. The MLs, due to the boosted bass and trebles, sound "better" because they're louder in the bass and treble region. It's interesting that we haven't seen (at least I haven't, as of my writing this) seen Klippel NFS measurements of this line from the likes of Erin's Audio Corner, or Amir from ASR. We can quibble with our own personal audio preferences differing from those (and other) reviewers, but there is definitely a value in seeing the Klippel NFS measurements of speakers.

I bet that once someone puts the F100 on the Klippel NFS, they'll find boosts in both the bass and the treble regions.

[davef]

I may or may not have been in the room when the B100s were demoed by Dave...

As someone who has listened to the F100 towers in multiple Best Buy/Magnolia listening rooms, A/B'ing it with other towers in their showroom, it literally sounds like the Loudness function was baked into the speakers.

For those who remember the loudness button in older A/V receivers from the 80's and earlier, it was designed to offset the old phenomenon of, as you lower the volume on speakers, the bass and upper treble fall off faster than the mids. So by pressing the loudness button, the older receivers just boosted the bass and treble (kind of like a smile shaped EQ). But you were only supposed to engage the loudness function at low volumes so that at those levels you got the bass and treble back. But if you kept it on at loud volumes, you just got bass and treble boosted inappropriately. That's what the new ML line sounds like to me. It sounds great at low to low-medium volumes, but put it at say 70db average (or higher) and then the bass (for the towers, as the bookshelves don't have the same bass extension) and the trebles are boosted inappropriately.

So I think a lot of the internet reviewers who are more "subjective focused" who love the new ML line may be falling for the old "louder is better" audio phenomenon. The MLs, due to the boosted bass and trebles, sound "better" because they're louder in the bass and treble region. It's interesting that we haven't seen (at least I haven't, as of my writing this) seen Klippel NFS measurements of this line from the likes of Erin's Audio Corner, or Amir from ASR. We can quibble with our own personal audio preferences differing from those (and other) reviewers, but there is definitely a value in seeing the Klippel NFS measurements of speakers.

I bet that once someone puts the F100 on the Klippel NFS, they'll find boosts in both the bass and the treble regions.

I didn't hear boosted bass, I heard a lack of bass combined with heavily boosted highs. Since Klippel NFS is unquestionably the new industry standard, maybe I should post the spin of the bookshelf? I am sure at some point Amir or Erin will get their hands on one but it might be a while.

[Beave]

I don't think you should post it - it might appear to some as bashing a competitor.

On the other hand, if it were to, oh, I don't know, get leaked out to a forum by somebody who happened to get a copy somehow, well....

:D

[CarloM]

My boosted bass comment was meant only for the F100s I’ve heard in two Magnolias. It’s gotten to the point where I wondered if there was a sub inadvertently left on with only the F100 and not the other demo speakers in their room (there wasn’t, I checked them all).

Of course magnolias also use that crappy switcher system so maybe something was messed up in the settings.

[davef]

My boosted bass comment was meant only for the F100s I’ve heard in two Magnolias. It’s gotten to the point where I wondered if there was a sub inadvertently left on with only the F100 and not the other demo speakers in their room (there wasn’t, I checked them all).

Of course magnolias also use that crappy switcher system so maybe something was messed up in the settings.



Yes, I listened to the floorstanders on 2 occasions at Magnolia. Both times they had practically no deep bass, even the salesmen (2 of them) commented on that. The Kef R3 had much deeper bass. I'd prefer to listen to a set in our demo room, but after listening to the bookshelf versions in our demo room, I had the same impressions, extremely boosted and fatiguing highs, I just couldn't listen to them.

[davef]

I don't think you should post it - it might appear to some as bashing a competitor.

On the other hand, if it were to, oh, I don't know, get leaked out to a forum by somebody who happened to get a copy somehow, well....

:D

Sage advice as always... So if someone is actually interested, please contact me privately.

[swadin]

Dave, I own Sierra-2s for 3 years now and have been very satisfied with them. Before buying the S-2s, I have auditioned Kef R3s. Even though I liked the bass on R3s for some songs, I chose S-2s for their clarity on the highs.
As the new Kef R11 metas were released recently, I am wondering if you guys had chance to compare ELX towers with the R11/R11 metas. My cousin owns regular R11 and I am very impressed how they sound. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

[davef]

Dave, I own Sierra-2s for 3 years now and have been very satisfied with them. Before buying the S-2s, I have auditioned Kef R3s. Even though I liked the bass on R3s for some songs, I chose S-2s for their clarity on the highs.
As the new Kef R11 metas were released recently, I am wondering if you guys had chance to compare ELX towers with the R11/R11 metas. My cousin owns regular R11 and I am very impressed how they sound. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

I listened to the R11 Meta at a dealer so a direct comparison against our ELX was not possible. That stated, I liked them - I thought they did everything well but I will say I much prefer the ribbon tweeter in our ELX Ribbon Tower, there is character to this RAAL ribbon that is just not there with other speakers. I also preferred the bass in our ELX and the soundstage width is a bit narrow on the R11 Meta compared to our ELX Ribbons. So much depends on the room and placement, but our ELX give up nothing to the R11...

If your are somewhat local, give us a call and come have a listen :)

[CarloM]

No more need to leak the Klippel for the B100s...Erin just reviewed them and his Klippel measurements pretty much align with the model you measured, Dave.

[davef]

No more need to leak the Klippel for the B100s...Erin just reviewed them and his Klippel measurements pretty much align with the model you measured, Dave.

Thanks for the head's up! Erin's experience listening to the B100 perfectly aligned with my own.

Our NFS measurements are also nearly identical. Our measurements showed slightly more bass extension and just a tad bit less high frequency boost, but otherwise nearly identical.

I inverted and overlaid our measurements on top of Erin's.

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[hometheater]

Not sure this is the best place for this question but almost all review sites put such an emphasis on EQ now. Erin is probably more realistic than others about using EQ to "fix" any speaker.

I used to believe EQ was this magic method to dramatically improve sound quality. I would always use the Audyssey on my Denon x4400h the moment I do anything to a system.

That is until I upgraded my speakers to the Sierra-2EX V2. Based on Dave's advice to limit EQ only to a room's transition frequency (i.e. < 300 hz), I found out the speakers sound so much smoother and cleaner without most of the EQ. To me ears, there was like an edge or harshness to the sound with the EQ running full frequency.

Without the EQ above 300 hz, the sound is just so much cleaner and "pure" as if the performer was there playing in the room. I'm not sure the reason for this but I'm curious why.

With this experience, I think there's way to much hype with the different EQ types such as Dirac, Ymao (or whatever that is), etc. going around now but I guess to each their own. IMO, all you need is below 300 hz and that's it.

[msound]

Not sure this is the best place for this question but almost all review sites put such an emphasis on EQ now. Erin is probably more realistic than others about using EQ to "fix" any speaker.

I used to believe EQ was this magic method to dramatically improve sound quality. I would always use the Audyssey on my Denon x4400h the moment I do anything to a system.

That is until I upgraded my speakers to the Sierra-2EX V2. Based on Dave's advice to limit EQ only to a room's transition frequency (i.e. < 300 hz), I found out the speakers sound so much smoother and cleaner without most of the EQ. To me ears, there was like an edge or harshness to the sound with the EQ running full frequency.

Without the EQ above 300 hz, the sound is just so much cleaner and "pure" as if the performer was there playing in the room. I'm not sure the reason for this but I'm curious why.

With this experience, I think there's way to much hype with the different EQ types such as Dirac, Ymao (or whatever that is), etc. going around now but I guess to each their own. IMO, all you need is below 300 hz and that's it.

Back in the days when all we had was Audyssey, I was never happy with how it made my speakers sound. I would spend countless hours, more like weeks obsessing about trying to tune it to perfection, but years later perfection never came.

I then upgraded to an Anthem MRX which had ARC room correction and boy was I amazed on the difference compared to Audyssey. I was finally happy with the end result of an automatic room correction. Was it perfect, no, but it was very good.

Years later I had the opportunity to try Dirac and it was definitely the best automatic room correction yet. Honestly I can't live without it now. Once you hear what it can do, you can not unhear it. There is a lot of a learning curve to dial things in because it is extremely flexible but it worth it. Eqing 20hz to 20khz NEVER sounded good to me on any eq software, except Dirac, as it is a different animal. Dirac cleans up the bass, making it tighter and puncher. Cleans up and opens up the soundstage making instruments and singer locations more define.

[hometheater]

Thanks for sharing your experience but it would be quite costly to upgrade my receiver then have pay extra for the Dirac upgrade if I stayed with Denon.

What type of speakers are you using and have they been NFS optimized like the Sierra 2EX V2s?

[hometheater]

Based on your profile, you have ELX Towers and Horizon so definitely NFS optimized.

Do you hear a big difference if you limit Dirac to < 300hz with those speakers?

[James]

I've had good luck with a measurement mic, REW and a Behringer digital parametric equalizer.

Total cost around $300.

It's not automatic though - you have to measure, use REW to generate eq settings and then put those into the Behringer.

And there are different ways you can use them.

I'd recommend the B&K house curve - it's their representation of an ideal speaker in an ideal room. It has a slight boost in the bass, then a gently curving decrease. I've been using it with these settings - 30hz 0, 125hz 0, 500hz -1db, 1000hz -2db, 2000hz -3db, 5000hz -4db, 10000hz -5db, 20000hz -6db.

Dayton Audio - UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone (https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1116/umm-6-usb-measurement-microphone)
REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software (https://www.roomeqwizard.com/)
Behringer | Product | FBQ2496 (https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0315)

I have a pair of the older Sierra Towers with NrT dome tweeters, so they're not Klippel optimized. My setup might not work for you - I just realized you're using a receiver. With my old school system, I put the Behringer between the preamp and the amp.

[msound]

Based on your profile, you have ELX Towers and Horizon so definitely NFS optimized.

Do you hear a big difference if you limit Dirac to < 300hz with those speakers?

I actually have the Towers v1 but my upgrade kit is coming in a few weeks. Changed it a bit early :). On the v1 it makes a big difference for sure. Maybe the ELX will require less of Dirac working the higher and mid frequencies, but that's just a guess as they are NFS optimized. With the v1 without Dirac my frequency slope is just too flat and with a bump in the mid frequencies causes a too forward sound and too much highs in my room.

[msound]

Based on your profile, you have ELX Towers and Horizon so definitely NFS optimized.

Do you hear a big difference if you limit Dirac to < 300hz with those speakers?

Emotiva has a built-in 11 band parametric which I also tried but Dirac was just superior. I did try to limit Dirac to 100hz, 200hz, 300hz, etc. With months of fiddling but nothing sounds better than letting Dirac eq to 20khz. Yes I have read a lot of forums, papers, research, etc about not eq ing above 500hz and I was very hardheaded not to. But with Dirac it just sounds better.

When you have the funds, you should make the leap to Dirac. You won't regret it ;)

[curtis]

I have had Trinnov, Dirac, and currently Anthem room correct systems in my setup...all great, but I still only correct below 300-500hz in my room. Doing the higher frequencies just sounds artificial/un-natural to me.

[davef]

Not sure this is the best place for this question but almost all review sites put such an emphasis on EQ now. Erin is probably more realistic than others about using EQ to "fix" any speaker.

I used to believe EQ was this magic method to dramatically improve sound quality. I would always use the Audyssey on my Denon x4400h the moment I do anything to a system.

That is until I upgraded my speakers to the Sierra-2EX V2. Based on Dave's advice to limit EQ only to a room's transition frequency (i.e. < 300 hz), I found out the speakers sound so much smoother and cleaner without most of the EQ. To me ears, there was like an edge or harshness to the sound with the EQ running full frequency.

Without the EQ above 300 hz, the sound is just so much cleaner and "pure" as if the performer was there playing in the room. I'm not sure the reason for this but I'm curious why.

With this experience, I think there's way to much hype with the different EQ types such as Dirac, Ymao (or whatever that is), etc. going around now but I guess to each their own. IMO, all you need is below 300 hz and that's it.

Good post and extremely worthy of discussion.

It is important to distinguish between the EQ Erin discusses and auto room equalization systems. These are not the same.

Erin offers suggested equalization frequency ranges and amplitude amounts that are designed to correct frequency response issues in the specific speaker itself

Auto room equalization systems are designed to measure the overall response of your room + speakers, and then apply equalization to try and achieve a target response curve.

It is critical to understand the differences.

With our NFS optimized line of speakers, the speakers are already specifically designed to achieve an in-room response that current research has determined to be the most accurate, most preferred. We have found that using auto room EQ with speakers already designed to achieve an ideal in-room response only leads to sound degradation.

Now, that is from the Schroeder Frequency on up, but from the Schroeder Frequency on down, where the modal response of the room dominates, room equalization is most beneficial.

[filmgeek47]

I just stumbled onto this thread after playing with Dirac settings for a couple of days. I’m glad to hear my ears weren’t deceiving me. Prior to getting my Sierra Towers I always preferred the sound of full range correction (probably because it was modifying my speaker’s response).

With my Ascends it sounds so much more natural with only the bass corrected. Love these speakers so much. Can’t wait to do the ELX upgrade when my budget allows (still need to upgrade my surrounds first!) Enjoying hearing others impressions of the ELX line in the mean time (I got a chance to demo them last time I was down there and they truly are something special).