We Saved The Best For Last!

[davef]

For as long as we have been manufacturing speakers, we have received requests for a true end-game speaker. A speaker that provides class-leading performance in all the critical performance areas.


• Accuracy
• Detail
• Dynamic capability
• Directivity
• Wide dispersion
• High frequency linearity and extension
• Non-fatiguing
• Bass extension and midbass punch
• Low distortion
• Good efficiency
• Power handling
• Accurate transient reproduction


This list goes on and on…

Achieving a few of these lofty goals is difficult enough but attempting to achieve all of them is a highly complex engineering challenge and almost impossible. To achieve one design goal, sacrifices in other goals must typically be made.

Our towers were introduced 11 ½ years ago and have truly stood the test of time, other than a few cosmetic changes, we have never made even a single change. We have almost always run a constant backorder, selling out continuously.

With our newer and NFS optimized EX and LX speakers, we have come very close to matching the performance of our towers. Both the EXv2 and LX have surpassed the towers in certain very specific performance characteristics, and this was our goal. With the LX, we surpassed the towers in overall dynamics, bass extension and power handling – with the EXv2, directivity and midrange accuracy and detail.

We have closely tracked and logged all customer feedback on these 3 speakers (Towers, EX and LX). This critical data was the catalyst to developing something truly special, world-class products that compete with and even surpass nearly all other passive designs.

One of the reasons this took us so long was that a few key elements were missing. One of those were our incredible LX woofers, which have now been fully vetted and tested being in the hands of hundreds of customers with our Sierra-LX. The dynamics, bass extension and sheer power these woofers provide is unmatched and has been proven as such. When designing these woofers, it was always our intention to be able to use them in our towers, and they were designed and optimized as such. We just needed to amass enough feedback on them and now we have it.

With our Sierra-2EX V2, we were able to achieve text-book perfect directivity with our EX woofer and RAAL ribbon tweeter, and feedback from the V2 has far surpassed our expectations.

The last missing element, our Klippel NFS. Having the most advanced acoustic R&D device at our disposal allows us to put this all together in a manner that very few audio companies are capable of.

It has always been our intention to offer an end-game product, but we weren’t going to do so until all the critical pieces were in place, and I am so pleased to say that this complex puzzle has been solved. And, in such a way that this product clearly defines that age-old adage “The whole far exceeds the sum of its parts”. Considering every component used is truly top-of-the-line, that is a bold statement to make.

The real key to this project is in the unique crossover topology that we have been working on and trying to perfect for over a decade now.

One of the problems with 3-way parallel crossovers is that there needs to be a very large capacitor in series with the midrange driver to form the high pass filter, which gently rolls off the lows. Such a large value series capacitor in series with the critical midrange driver causes some unavoidable issues. Amongst these are a large phase shift, distortion, and it also dampens dynamics. Then, to increase the high pass filter slope from 1st order to second order (12dB/octave) – you then must add the appropriate inductor in parallel after this capacitor. This then takes lows that should not reach the driver directly to ground.

To filter out the highs that are meant to go the tweeter, you then also add a low pass filter, (a series inductor with a parallel capacitor) – thus completing what is known as a bandpass filter for the midrange driver. The tweeter then uses a separate high pass filter while the woofer uses a low pass filter, and then these 3 filters are wired in parallel. This is the standard for crossover designs for 3-way speakers. It is a tried-and-true design, relatively simple to design and when done right, provides good results.

I have had an idea in my head for a different 3-way crossover topology for what must be 25 years now and we started work on this back when we first developed our towers. We made several samples, and the results were good, not great – and not better than the more simplistic and common crossover design we eventually went with.

With help from advanced computer modeling and hundreds of hours of NFS testing, we have finally been successful in developing this different crossover topology, that avoids the negatives of a large series capacitor as described previously while also routing much of those low frequencies that would normally go to ground, to the bass woofers.

The results are amazing, driver integration and overall directivity is about as good as it gets for a passive loudspeaker. Coherency is on par with the best 2-way speakers, yet this is a true 3-way. Dynamics are astounding as is bass response as this new crossover design mitigates those losses as I outlined above. Because phase response is more accurate, directivity is improved and this results in remarkable spaciousness, but not overly so such that center imaging is still focused and not dispersed.

We lose a small bit of overall efficiency, but this is offset by presenting an easier impedance load to the amplifier, so the amp uses less current and as such, has more headroom available.

In simple terms, this new crossover brings out the maximum potential of each transducer, sums them ideally and the results are clearly and instantly audible when it comes to dynamics, spaciousness and imaging.

2432
For many reasons I won’t be publishing details on the circuits themselves, but it functions differently than a 3-way parallel crossover and the results have proven to be better than I had expected. I am honestly not sure if it would have been possible to properly design this without an NFS.

This is a unique, expensive, highly complex, 2-layer crossover that, with specific optimizations that we perform by hand, serves as the brains for 4 new versions of our towers, and 4 new versions of our Horizon!

Stay tuned....

[davef]

Introducing our ELX line of towers and horizons!

Combining the best performance attributes of our Sierra-2EX V2, Sierra-LX and our original towers, with a hefty sprinkling of a huge amount of customer data and a massive investment in R&D, we have created true endgame speakers.

Our NFS optimized ELX line achieves and exceeds every performance goal we set for every category. Simply put, this is a level of performance on a scale never seen at anywhere near this price point. We had targeted several renown benchmark products that we were looking to match or exceed, products that retail for at least 2-5x. We achieved and even surpassed that goal, both objectively and more importantly, subjectively.

It is hard to describe the differences in performance between our original towers and our ELX, but it is both dramatic and shocking. Every aspect of our original towers has been significantly improved upon and the differences are clearly audible. In fact, and I personally found this as somewhat bothersome since our original towers have been so beloved by so many, direct level matched A/B comparisons make the original towers sound constrained and lifeless. Others who have done this same comparison will agree.

ELX towers and horizons are incredibly spacious sounding, with shocking dynamics and near full-range bass extension, massive midbass punch that you can truly feel, combined with perfect tonal balance and accuracy. Of course, resolution and detail are off the charts – thanks to using the absolute best ribbon tweeter on the planet, combined with a purely custom SEAS Excel Curv cone driver for the midrange, of which the 2 combined present a near perfect directivity match.

As I had previously mentioned, with our new crossover topology, we lose a small bit of efficiency, so the ELX Tower and ELX Horizon will come in with a sensitivity rating of 87.5dB anechoic, 90.5dB typical in-room. For the ELX Tower, -6dB point for bass extension is a remarkable 33Hz, with typical in-room bass extension to 25Hz and even lower. No subwoofer is needed with these speakers, but we do still recommend one for home theater usage.

Distortion, even at high volume levels, is extremely well controlled. These speakers are ideal for 2-channel music purists and also for those seeking the most dynamic, accurate and immersive home theater. There is no source material or audible frequency range that our ELX line cannot produce with accuracy, realistic dynamics and, if demanded, reference level volume levels.

All this performance in a stunning, slim and compact, non-resonant, environmentally friendly 3-ply layered bamboo cabinet.

ELX towers and horizons use the same cabinets as our original towers, although due to supply chain issues and costs, we are no longer manufacturing the cabinets domestically. ELX line uses (2) of our 6” LX woofers for bass, and our 6” SEAS Excel “EX” driver for the midrange. Customers will have the choice between our customized RAAL 70-20xram or our Titan dome tweeter.

We will have the following finishes available:

Satin Espresso, Satin Dark Cherry, Natural and Piano Black (this a new offering)

Introductory pricing through Jan 1st:

ELX Ribbon Tower pair (all finishes) = $4998 + shipping. Pricing will increase to $5298 in January.

ELX Titan Tower pair (all finishes) = $4398 + shipping.

Shipping on the above versions will begin within 2-3 weeks!

For the ELX Horizon, we have a limited supply of domestic cabinets still available. Overseas cabinets are not yet available, and we hope to have these new cabinets within 5-6 months.

ELX Ribbon Horizon, domestic cabinet = $2798 + shipping.

ELX Titan Horizon, domestic cabinet = $2498 + shipping.

ELX Upgrade kits are already available and shipping!

Sierra Ribbon Tower pair to ELX Ribbon Tower pair = $1998, price increasing to $2198 in January.

Sierra NrT Tower pair to ELX Titan Tower pair = $2198, with possible price increase in January.

Sierra Ribbon Horizon to ELX Ribbon Horizon = $1048 + shipping, price increasing to $1148 in January.

Sierra NrT Horizon to ELX Titan Horizon = $1148 + shipping, with possible price increase in January.

The above information will slowly be added to our website over the next 1-2 weeks, if you would like to get an order in now, please give us a call.

Next post will be ELX Ribbon Tower and ELX Ribbon Horizon measurements (likely later this evening)

[davef]

ELX Ribbon Tower Measurements

[davef]

ELX Ribbon Horizon Measurements

[davef]

ELX Titans!

The ELX Titan version substitutes the RAAL ribbon with our fantastic Titan dome tweeter. The goal with this version was to come as close as possible to matching the overall directivity and frequency response with the ELX ribbon versions. Of course, the intense dynamics, punch and deep bass response are fully retained as the only change, besides crossover optimizations for the different tweeter, is the tweeter itself.

As we had mentioned when designing the Sierra-LX, we chose the SEAS Titan dome tweeter due to it very closely matching the horizontal directivity of our RAAL 70-20xram ribbon. As good as our NrT dome is, the Titan is the overall better dome tweeter for this application and as such, the NrT dome has been replaced. As shown by the measurements, we have closely matched the stated goals.

I have spent a lot of time comparing both ELX versions with direct A/B switching. The two versions do sound very close but there are some audible differences with the RAAL versions that I have yet to be able to capture with measurements, even with using our Klippel NFS. With the RAAL’s, and more specifically – for music listening, there is a more defined attack combined with faster decay times that no dome tweeter can match. As a guitar player, string instruments do sound more realistic to me compared to the dome version – but one must specifically listen for this.

These slight differences disappear for movies / home theater and the wider vertical dispersion of the Titan dome will likely be beneficial for some listeners. Add to that the cost savings and we have a more affordable version of the ELX line, that for listeners who are more focused on movies, gaming, home theater, heavy metal music – I do recommend going with the ELX Titans due to the cost savings.

Retail pricing for a pair of ELX Titan Towers = $4398 + shipping

Retail pricing for ELX Titan Horizon in our domestic cabinet = $2498 + shipping

We are also happy to offer ELX Titan upgrade kits. We only recommend upgrading the original NrT dome versions to the ELX Titan. Going from the ribbon to titan dome is not recommended as it will require cabinet modifications. We can do this for customers at our facility if requested.

[davef]

ELX Titan Horizon Measurements

[davef]

Very happy to announce that our Ribbon Tower V2 and Titan Tower are now listed on our website!

https://ascendacoustics.com/collections/sierra-series-pairs/products/sierra-tower-v2-pair?variant=40596422656054

This is true "trickle-down" technology. By applying the same advanced crossover technology to our original towers, we have developed a very affordable RAAL 70-20xram ribbon tweeter tower and Titan dome tweeter tower that measure at the top of their class and more importantly, sound absolutely phenomenal.

Many will ask how these compare to the ELX line and original towers. The answer is simple, I would rate these as offering an overall performance that is halfway between the original towers and the ELX line. Compared to the original towers, the V2 are more spacious sounding with deeper bass and much more midbass energy (much punchier). Dynamics and overall tonal balance are improved, as are imaging and depth.

We lose about 2dB in overall efficiency, but this is gained back by presenting an easier less reactive load to the amplifier, thus the amp will have more available current.

And the best part, these are now shipping!

[davef]

Finally able to come up for some air... It has indeed been a crazy few months with ELX sales far eclipsing our forecasts.

I know many of you have been waiting for measurements of the Horizon V2, and I am truly sorry for taking so long. Rather than posting the measurements here, we have now added the Horizon V2 to the website with full NFS measurements of both the Ribbon version and the Titan version.

Please note, we have a very limited supply of Horizon cabinets at this time. That will most certainly change in the near future, but it is going to take some time.

I should also mention, Horizon V2 (both versions) offer unbelievable performance and easily compare with the very best centers out there at significantly lower pricing. Pricing will likely increase once we receive our next supply of cabinets.

So what's next? We are making excellent progress on our massive backorder and ELX Towers and ELX Horizon will soon be added to the website.

Enjoy!!!

[422415]

4 new versions?!

[Chris S.]

4 new versions?!

My same reaction haha. Very curious to see what all these new versions are! One of them will likely be my end-game living room setup.

[NegativeEntropy]

I caught up on the happenings over the last ~year at Ascend over the holiday weekend (via the forums).

Very happy for you all that you've really leaned into using the NFS and iterated at a furious pace (all while supply chains are still a mess).

I am in manufacturing myself and we started using a metrology grade CT scanner a few years back to similar excitement. We can now do in ~4 hours what used to take 80-120 with respect to dimensional metrology. It really changes what's possible WRT timelines, and therefore for projects in general.

Looking forward to the detailed announcements in the coming days Dave! This may even help motivate me to complete my "on hold" home theater (on hold due to personal reasons, fortunately not financial ones). While I still love my OG Tower/Horizon NrT setup, having something next level from Ascend to use in their place would be sweet and welcomed.

[laserllama]

Looking forward to details on versions soon and am requesting the fog machine, mirrored disco ball cabinets, and built-in laser projector versions for sure until I find out that those aren't actually features!

[JohnWalling]

You’ve read my mind! I literally just emailed you asking if there are any tower upgrades in the works. Then I checked the forum and here we are! Very excited to see what’s up.

[Jonnyozero3]

In simple terms, this new crossover brings out the maximum potential of each transducer, sums them ideally and the results are clearly and instantly audible when it comes to dynamics, spaciousness and imaging.

2432

This is a unique, expensive, highly complex, 2-layer crossover that, with specific optimizations that we perform by hand, serves as the brains for 4 new versions of our towers, and 4 new versions of our Horizon!



Dave this is incredibly exciting. Very curious if you are finding new objective ways with the Klippel to quantify what used to be left to subjective impressions....

[617]

Dave, is this a series crossover by any chance? Or series for the woofer mid network? I'm a passive filter fan and I'm curious what you managed to do here. 3 way series networks are very unusual.

[Mj30250]

I've been very fortunate to have been using the new RAAL towers with the crossover, woofer, and midrange upgrades for several months, and the new RAAL Horizon for over a week.

In my estimation, these will absolutely be true end game speakers for many. As fond of and as impressed as I was with the "standard" RAAL towers, I did not necessarily feel that they were end game for me. The new version addresses everything that I felt could have been meaningfully improved, and then some.

I am very curious about what the other 3(!) versions could possibly be. Surely one of them is a Titan dome tweeter implementation. Could the others be crossover-upgrades that utilize the original midrange and woofers? Or something different entirely?

[Natural1]

I'm guessing...
1&2: Drop-in replacements for existing Towers (RAAL & Titan versions)
3&4: A new (or slightly re-worked) cabinet with larger bass drivers (RAAL & Titan versions)

[curtis]

I'm guessing...
1&2: Drop-in replacements for existing Towers (RAAL & Titan versions)
3&4: A new (or slightly re-worked) cabinet with larger bass drivers (RAAL & Titan versions)
cabinet can't handle a larger woofer now, and I doubt a new larger cabinet would be introduced.

then again...maybe side firing. :)

[diesel79]

Someone just posted on AVS on his upgrade. New midrange which looks like the Excel woofer used in the EX. Bass drivers are the new titan drivers. His upgrade kept the RAAL, but I assume a titan done will also be an option.

[Natural1]

cabinet can't handle a larger woofer now, and I doubt a new larger cabinet would be introduced

Hmm... You may be right, but the reason I say that is because the cabinet width on the Sierra bookshelf is the same as the towers (7.5"). The bookshelf mid/bass drivers are 6", but the towers currently have 5.25" bass drivers.

[curtis]

Hmm... You may be right, but the reason I say that is because the cabinet width on the Sierra bookshelf is the same as the towers (7.5"). The bookshelf mid/bass drivers are 6", but the towers currently have 5.25" bass drivers.
Oh yeah....but the Titan was a drop in replacement in the bookshelf.

[racrawford65]

Patiently waiting on the option details to see what the damage to my credit card will be.

[jimlucci]

Was waiting for this announcement. My credit card is already twitching. lol.

[SunByrne]

Hmm... You may be right, but the reason I say that is because the cabinet width on the Sierra bookshelf is the same as the towers (7.5"). The bookshelf mid/bass drivers are 6", but the towers currently have 5.25" bass drivers.

The Sierra-1 drivers (first things in that cabinet width) are 5.25". Dave has simply managed to get 6" drivers into the same physical space for the EX and LX models.

From the photos on AVS, it appears that this is exactly what is going on again—the old bass drivers were 5.25" but the 6" EX and LX drivers fit in the same openings.

So I'll also be really surprised if there's a new, wider Tower cabinet.

My guess is two versions with RAALs and two versions with Titans.

From the AVS pictures (those are here (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ascend-acoustics-announces-new-klippel-nfs-optimized-sierra-towers-and-horizon-center.3260700/), by the way), it appears one of the four options will be the current RAAL 70-20 with the EX woofer as the midrange driver and the LX woofers as the bass drivers.

My guess for option #2 will be the same mid/bass config but with Titan tweeters.

I wonder if the other two options will be the current mid/bass drivers just with new crossovers, RAAL and Titan tweeters, maybe? I guess we'll know soon.

This would kind of track with 4 new Horizons, too. RAAL and Titan with new crossovers but same mid/bass drivers, and then RAAL and Titan version with EX and LX drivers.

[Mahawkma]

Fantastic news. Been waiting for the tower upgrade. Just need to know what the damage is going to be so I can start saving. . .

[davef]

My same reaction haha. Very curious to see what all these new versions are! One of them will likely be my end-game living room setup.

Yep - 4 versions of the towers and horizon.

There will be the ultimate high-end version, which we are calling ELX Towers and ELX Horizon, of which there will be 2 options, our Titan dome or our custom 70-20xram RAAL Ribbon

ELX Ribbon Tower & ELX Ribbon Horizon

ELX Titan Tower & ELX Titan Horizon


There will also be the standard version, using the same bass woofers and midwoofer.

Ribbon Tower V2 and Ribbon Horizon V2

and also

Titan Tower and Titan Horizon. The Titan tweeter is a better dome tweeter than our NrT for this application and as such, we are replacing the NrT dome with the Titan.

The Titan Tower and Titan Horizon will be compelling options due to being price competitive.

All towers and horizons will be using optimized versions of the new crossover.

There will also be upgrades available, however - these upgrades are time consuming and complicated, and will require soldering.

[davef]

Dave, is this a series crossover by any chance? Or series for the woofer mid network? I'm a passive filter fan and I'm curious what you managed to do here. 3 way series networks are very unusual.

I would categorize this as a combination series-parallel crossover. Very difficult to get right and the idea for this topology has been burning a hole in my brain for 2+ decades. Thankfully, over the past year (18 months?) we have invested heavily in our R&D and as such, have the right tools to get this complex design exactly right.

I am not sure if I will publish details as to how we optimized this, but doing so required quite a bit more analysis and testing than just acoustic measurements performed by the Klippel NFS, we had to dig deep into direct electrical analysis and the transfer functions as well.

It was extremely satisfying for me to get this idea out of my head and into a working product.

[laserllama]

I can tell waiting for Reserved7 to change into a post and the shopping cart to show up online is going to be harder than waiting for Santa to come on Christmas Eve :)

Definitely interested in those ELX Ribbon Towers.

quick question for future posts maybe - I read about the crossover upgrades and phase improvements/etc. if we already thought the Horizon Center was pretty much perfect for movies and tv dialog, what is it missing that we haven't yet heard? Assuming we listen to music in 2.1, that is? Do any vocal frequencies go across the crossover frequency regions of the old Horizon where that gets noticeable? Or do you think folks who are going to be interested in upgrading their centers going to be more using it for music also? It seems in most surround programming the center is (mostly?) speech, even music/atmospheric content usually goes to the left and right when it's not panned, but obviously some content might not stick to that. hope that question makes sense?

[SunByrne]

Looks like I guessed right. Blind squirrel and all that.

Dave, you can assume early summer I’ll be ordering an ELX Titan Horizon. If there are Titan upgrades (sidegrades?) for the Duos then a pair of those, too.

[diesel79]

ELX RAAL Horizon sounds pretty awesome. I have a feeling that one will be spendy. Lol. Can’t wait to see what pricing is so I can figure out how far I can go.

[bkdc]

There will also be upgrades available, however - these upgrades are time consuming and complicated, and will require soldering.

Soldering was one of the most useful skills I picked up in college. As typing was the most useful thing I learned in high school.

Will the same crossover be used for all four versions?

[Beave]

Will the same crossover be used for all four versions?

Different drivers in each speaker will require different crossovers for each speaker.

[davef]

Will the same crossover be used for all four versions?

Yes, but different value components are used with all 8 different versions. It is a ton of work on our end, but we wanted to offer something different, something very special.

[racrawford65]

Dave - just to confirm, any upgrade of existing Towers/Horizon would require soldering (I’m specifically interested in either just cross-over or new bass/midrange/existing RAAL+new crossover options)

[davef]

Dave - just to confirm, any upgrade of existing Towers/Horizon would require soldering (I’m specifically interested in either just cross-over or new bass/midrange/existing RAAL+new crossover options)

Correct, for all tower upgrade options, it will be necessary to desolder and solder. I think the soldering is the easiest part ;)

I will be posting upgrade instructions within 24-48 hours.

[jimlucci]

As the ultimate option (ELX) replaces 3 of the four drivers in the towers (+ crossover), I am guessing the pricing on the upgrade will be on the steep side. I am very interested in understanding the relative difference in performance between the ultimate option and just the crossover option. I have the towers with RAAL and I also have a pair of the Sierra LX's so I can imagine the towers with the new EX and LX drivers will be unbelievable.

[racrawford65]

Correct, for all tower upgrade options, it will be necessary to desolder and solder. I think the soldering is the easiest part ;)

I will be posting upgrade instructions within 24-48 hours.
Thanks Dave. Guess I may need to get a soldering gun and start practicing😁

Looking forward to the instructions

[sonic icons]

laserllama - according to Wikipedia articles, the full frequency range of human speech has been measured to be 85 Hz (lowest fundamental frequency of an adult male voice) to 17 kHz (highest overtones). The 85 Hz - 7 kHz range is defined as wideband or high definition in audio systems designed for human voice only transmission ("telephony") - this range preserves enough of the overtones to recognize and distinguish between individual voices. The 85 Hz - 14 kHz range is defined as superwideband in telephony - this range preserves almost all of the audible overtones.

I think Dave has said that the midrange-tweeter crossover in the existing Sierra RAAL Tower and Horizon is close to 2 kHz. (We should probably start calling those the "first-generation" Tower and Horizon.) According to this article (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Design_criteria.htm), a traditional 3-way system with 6-8 inch woofer and 4-5 inch midrange ("Example 1") usually has a bass-midrange crossover at 300 Hz or slightly higher.

My conclusion is that the human voice frequency range encompasses both the bass-midrange (probably near 300 Hz) and midrange-tweeter (near 2 kHz) crossover frequencies in the Tower and Horizon, hence all three driver types affect the quality or fidelity of human voice reproduction.

Also, you wrote "It seems in most surround programming the center is (mostly?) speech, even music/atmospheric content usually goes to the left and right". I don't believe that is correct. A lot of the "music/atmospheric content" - to use specific language, the part of the audio content of a modern surround-sound movie or TV program that is produced by acoustic or electronic instruments and not by human voices - DOES go to the center speaker. If you doubt this, try a simple experiment. Using the controls on your AV receiver or processor (e.g. "Option" - "Channel Level" on a Denon AVR) turn the center speaker level all the way up and all the other channel levels all the way down. (Write down the levels before changing them.) Now stand directly in front of your center speaker and listen to a favorite movie or show. Do you hear human voices only, or voices PLUS music and sound effects?

[sonic icons]

When reading about the amazing drivers in other Ascend speakers, I was thinking "hmm, there may be more than one Tower and Horizon upgrade path, to take best advantage of the new drivers and give people a choice between lower upgrade cost and higher performance". But even I wasn't expecting FOUR new versions of both the Tower and Horizon!

I think the lowest-cost and simplest upgrade for current RAAL Tower or Horizon owners will be the Ribbon Tower/Horizon V2, because that will preserve all the existing drivers (if I understand the description in #26) and only replace the crossover. However, I'm leaning toward the "ultimate high-end" ELX Ribbon version if the credit card can bear it. (lol I know what kind of group this is, who isn't craving "ultimate high-end"? :cool:)

Per Dave's comments "these upgrades are time consuming and complicated, and will require soldering" and "it will be necessary to desolder and solder. I think the soldering is the easiest part" I plan to be He Who Leads From Behind and wait for feedback from other upgraders before attempting the Mt Everest of speaker upgrades. Also welcome recommendations for the best model or type of soldering iron for the task, as well any other specialized tool. (I've used "high end" soldering irons at work, with features like a temperature control dial.) Since I'm leaning toward ordering three :eek: ELX Ribbon Tower upgrades, I'm sure any tool purchases will be a trivial part of the total cost.

[laserllama]

laserllama - according to Wikipedia articles,

my question is mostly to Dave about whether he thinks it is a "whoa" improvement on speech or not, and maybe a bit about why, as I was weighing what I might be missing when I thought the Horizons were already super slick.

to answer the panning question, YMMV, on pretty much all of my sources, all the atmospheric/SFX/music stuff goes to the L+R for home theater applications. If you listen to old stereo sources (like old sitcoms and stuff filmed for 4:3), mid/side math will put a lot more out the center channel. From an audio engineering perspective, it makes a lot of sense to send the atmospheric bits to the L+R so the vocals get less muddy, and people may not have balanced levels or speakers, so I can see why you'd do that in mixing.

[bkdc]

Most people are watching HT these days through direct streaming (Netflix, HBO Max), and in my experience the quality of the audio stream is not equivalent to a Blu-Ray (not even UHD blu-ray) audio. I was watching some Disney animation flicks with my kids on Disney+, and the quality of the dialogue and songs was greatly diminished on the direct stream. I then had my 4 year old listen to the CD recording of the same Encanto songs and she heard an immediate difference. What clarity! No matter how good your speakers are, garbage in, garbage out. I’m curious what kind of compression the direct streaming services use.

I have two pairs of RAAL towers, and I’m inclined do to a crossover only swap on the HT (because I have two subwoofers) and do a full swap on the second pair (music dedicated) sitting in the living room.

[curtis]

Most people are watching HT these days through direct streaming (Netflix, HBO Max), and in my experience the quality of the audio stream is not equivalent to a Blu-Ray (not even UHD blu-ray) audio. I was watching some Disney animation flicks with my kids on Disney+, and the quality of the dialogue and songs was greatly diminished on the direct stream. I then had my 4 year old listen to the CD recording of the same Encanto songs and she heard an immediate difference. What clarity! No matter how good your speakers are, garbage in, garbage out. I’m curious what kind of compression the direct streaming services use.

I have two pairs of RAAL towers, and I’m inclined do to a crossover only swap on the HT (because I have two subwoofers) and do a full swap on the second pair (music dedicated) sitting in the living room.
What streaming device are you using? I can't say I have found sound quality to be lacking. I have certainly seen video compression issues, but that happens rarely and I have no way of actually comparing. I use a second generation Apple TV 4K. I also have a great 1 gig internet connection.

CD stereo mix vs a multichannel mix is going to be different regardless.

Anyways, this is a discussion for a different thread.

[Mj30250]

Per Dave's comments "these upgrades are time consuming and complicated, and will require soldering" and "it will be necessary to desolder and solder. I think the soldering is the easiest part" I plan to be He Who Leads From Behind and wait for feedback from other upgraders before attempting the Mt Everest of speaker upgrades. Also welcome recommendations for the best model or type of soldering iron for the task, as well any other specialized tool. (I've used "high end" soldering irons at work, with features like a temperature control dial.) Since I'm leaning toward ordering three :eek: ELX Ribbon Tower upgrades, I'm sure any tool purchases will be a trivial part of the total cost.

I've performed the ELX tower upgrade. It's not so bad, as long as you're patient and take your time. Once I had completed the first tower and had the procedure down, the second one took only a little over an hour to swap out.

From a complexity standpoint, there really isn't much difference in the V2 upgrade versus the full ELX upgrade that includes the drivers. In each case, you will need to remove the bass woofers, binding posts, and crossover, as well as desolder / solder the output wires. The main difference is that the midrange driver would stay put with the V2, which isn't a big deal to replace. The decision should really come down to your performance desires and budget.

BTW, this is the soldering iron I used, and it worked fine:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AS28UC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

[sonic icons]

Mj30250 - thanks for the helpful comments as well as product link. I remember Weller is the top brand of soldering irons, and I see this one has temperature control and a good docking station.

[davef]

As the ultimate option (ELX) replaces 3 of the four drivers in the towers (+ crossover), I am guessing the pricing on the upgrade will be on the steep side. I am very interested in understanding the relative difference in performance between the ultimate option and just the crossover option. I have the towers with RAAL and I also have a pair of the Sierra LX's so I can imagine the towers with the new EX and LX drivers will be unbelievable.

It ultimately comes down to dynamics, punch, bass extension and power handling. The ELX versions have remarkable dynamics, and near full range bass extension and can handle an insane amount of power. They are the perfect speakers for those who are looking for an endgame product that is ideal for critical music listening AND extremely dynamic home theater for any size room and easily hitting reference levels and beyond.

The differences in dynamics are immediately noticeable. ELX has all of the best attributes of our Sierra-2EX and Sierra-LX, and multiplies that. I would be comfortable putting the ELX up against ANY floorstander and ANY Center out there at basically any price point, including Revel F328BE, TAD Evolution 2, and even Revel C426BE center.

Every component in the ELX is top of the line and custom manufactured for us. And, all this performance in a tower cabinet that is quite a bit smaller than all the others.

[davef]

Thanks Dave. Guess I may need to get a soldering gun and start practicing😁

Looking forward to the instructions

The soldering is very easy. Basically just heating up / melting 4 solder pads and then pulling out wires once the solder is melted. Then soldering them back into the new crossover using the opposite procedure (placing the wires into the holes, heating up the solder pads, adding solder, done)

You do not want to use a solder gun for this, a small inexpensive soldering iron works best:

We use this kit on our production line and it has been great:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01712N5C4/

And here is a link to high quality solder, although the solder that comes with the above kit is fine for these upgrades:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0149K4JTY/

[wtrimble]

When are the final details coming out with the different options and pricing?

[davef]

When are the final details coming out with the different options and pricing?

We will be releasing small chunks of info every 24-48 hours.

[davef]

Attached are the upgrade instructions from standard Ribbon Towers to ELX Ribbon Towers

Note, upgrading from standard towers to V2 (crossover change only) is the exact same procedure but rather than installing new woofers, you simply reinstall the same ones you removed.

This upgrade does take time and patience, but it is really not too bad.

[Chris S.]

How will these compare for home theater use with the new 340’s? Would they work well together using the 340’s as surrounds?

[parmodmehta]

Where on the site can I go to get pricing info for the horizon upgrade to the newer package?

[davef]

Where on the site can I go to get pricing info for the horizon upgrade to the newer package?

It is not on the site yet, likely within 24-48 hours.

Thanks!

[davef]

How will these compare for home theater use with the new 340’s? Would they work well together using the 340’s as surrounds?

Yes, they will work very together. In fact, due to pure laziness, in our demo room rather than grabbing a different pair of speakers for rears - we moved our demo 340SE2 from the front to the rears and placed ELX towers as fronts and it was seamless.

[davef]

I caught up on the happenings over the last ~year at Ascend over the holiday weekend (via the forums).

Very happy for you all that you've really leaned into using the NFS and iterated at a furious pace (all while supply chains are still a mess).

I am in manufacturing myself and we started using a metrology grade CT scanner a few years back to similar excitement. We can now do in ~4 hours what used to take 80-120 with respect to dimensional metrology. It really changes what's possible WRT timelines, and therefore for projects in general.

Looking forward to the detailed announcements in the coming days Dave! This may even help motivate me to complete my "on hold" home theater (on hold due to personal reasons, fortunately not financial ones). While I still love my OG Tower/Horizon NrT setup, having something next level from Ascend to use in their place would be sweet and welcomed.

Hey Neg!

It has been a while.

I wouldn't say the NFS actually speeds up the design process, a single scan takes about 6 hours on average and I have the NFS running nearly continuously these days. What it has done, and I know you can appreciate this, it has revitalized my passion for engineering and given me deeper insight as to being able to capture and describe what we hear using measurements.

Take care!

[1question]

It ultimately comes down to dynamics, punch, bass extension and power handling. The ELX versions have remarkable dynamics, and near full range bass extension and can handle an insane amount of power. They are the perfect speakers for those who are looking for an endgame product that is ideal for critical music listening AND extremely dynamic home theater for any size room and easily hitting reference levels and beyond.

The differences in dynamics are immediately noticeable. ELX has all of the best attributes of our Sierra-2EX and Sierra-LX, and multiplies that. I would be comfortable putting the ELX up against ANY floorstander and ANY Center out there at basically any price point, including Revel F328BE, TAD Evolution 2, and even Revel C426BE center.

Every component in the ELX is top of the line and custom manufactured for us. And, all this performance in a tower cabinet that is quite a bit smaller than all the others.

Why do you guys insist of using these small woofers in such big thing like a tower?
I really wanna see measurements THD at 100dB, i wanna see if the thd its like the 328BE and its bass level.

[Chris S.]

Yes, they will work very together. In fact, due to pure laziness, in our demo room rather than grabbing a different pair of speakers for rears - we moved our demo 340SE2 from the front to the rears and placed ELX towers as fronts and it was seamless.

Was this with the Titan or RAAL tweeter?

[422415]

Why do you guys insist of using these small woofers in such big thing like a tower?
I really wanna see measurements THD at 100dB, i wanna see if the thd its like the 328BE and its bass level.

Have you ever heard or seen an LX woofer?

https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-83LXxnn/A

[davef]

Why do you guys insist of using these small woofers in such big thing like a tower?
I really wanna see measurements THD at 100dB, i wanna see if the thd its like the 328BE and its bass level.

Are you the same person who continues making statements on other forums that we are using "midrange" drivers as woofers? (assuming you mean woofers designed for low frequency reproduction)

If that is you, you couldn't be any more wrong so please, just stop. I do hope you have some knowledge of transducer design in order to make such a bold statement, because cone diameter is not what determines the frequency bandwidth of a woofer.

A larger cone diameter can move air more efficiently than a smaller cone, but there are many other factors involved, such as excursion in combination with force, and our LX woofers have greater excursion and generate more force than most 7-8" woofers. In addition, they have the advantage of requiring less internal cabinet volume to reach the same low frequencies as well as having better directivity due to the smaller cone.

Sure, we could have went with 8" woofers, and gained a bit more overall efficiency, but the cabinet would be twice the size and as such, cost a ton more both in manufacturing and in shipping for the only benefit of having maybe 3dB higher sensitivity? Worth it? Not in my professional opinion...

[davef]

Was this with the Titan or RAAL tweeter?

ELX Ribbon Towers (RAAL 70-20xram)

[1question]

Are you the same person who continues making statements on other forums that we are using "midrange" drivers as woofers? (assuming you mean woofers designed for low frequency reproduction)

If that is you, you couldn't be any more wrong so please, just stop. I do hope you have some knowledge of transducer design in order to make such a bold statement, because cone diameter is not what determines the frequency bandwidth of a woofer.

A larger cone diameter can move air more efficiently than a smaller cone, but there are many other factors involved, such as excursion in combination with force, and our LX woofers have greater excursion and generate more force than most 7-8" woofers. In addition, they have the advantage of requiring less internal cabinet volume to reach the same low frequencies as well as having better directivity due to the smaller cone.

Sure, we could have went with 8" woofers, and gained a bit more overall efficiency, but the cabinet would be twice the size and as such, cost a ton more both in manufacturing and in shipping for the only benefit of having maybe 3dB higher sensitivity? Worth it? Not in my professional opinion...


Yes I am, but it was only 1 forum and 2 post asking that (I already said in that place that I was the guy), in your website I can see the tower that I skiped. it's called '' SIERRA TOWER PAIR '' which use these 5.25'' woofers that i'm talking about


Someone corrected me before of you, he said this tower use a 6'' which is much better imho, I thinked the new tower are also going to use 5.25'', that the reason why i called them as ''mid ranges''.
which is great to know that you are using a 6'' woofer at least, also a guy here posted a video showing the extra long-stroke, which is nice.

I aggre in your point of view, that being said you could use a 6.5'' / 7'', not a 8''. But at least these size woofer PLUS the long stroke would be extra nice, is a bit underwhelming if you have a very nice woofer but you nerf the size of the woofer in order to make the tower '' extra very slim/small '', there is a point when 20% more size doesn't matter, what really matter if the tower will make a bass that you will not miss a subwoofer.
a 6'' midrange plus dual 7'' would be super extra nice in the costumer point of view. It's not necessary a 8''.


Just an opinion. I find very interesting the new tower with 6'' though. I thinked was the same idea because the mid range has the same size of the woofers, like the SIERRA TOWER PAIR, but that speaker is using 5.25'' mid range plus dual 5.25'' woofers, instead of 6'' mid range plus dual 6'' woofers from the new speaker.

What I'm trying to explain, is if a 6'' woofer can be equivalent to a 8'', make the woofer 6.5'' so you can take the advantage.

Looking forward to the new series, very interesting.
Thank you.

[wtrimble]

Attached are the upgrade instructions from standard Ribbon Towers to ELX Ribbon Towers

Note, upgrading from standard towers to V2 (crossover change only) is the exact same procedure but rather than installing new woofers, you simply reinstall the same ones you removed.

This upgrade does take time and patience, but it is really not too bad.

Dave if our woofer cut out is not 156.4 mm wide does that mean it is not possible to upgrade to the ELX Ribbon towers?

Are their certain years where the woofer cut out size was increased or decreased?

[davef]

Dave if our woofer cut out is not 156.4 mm wide does that mean it is not possible to upgrade to the ELX Ribbon towers?

Are their certain years where the woofer cut out size was increased or decreased?

With our domestic cabinet maker, while they were very good, they did have some problems keeping to precise tolerances. This always puzzled me, especially since I assisted them with the purchase of a highly advanced $100K + CNC many years ago. As I recall, they were a bit disorganized though and they had to reprogram the CNC several times and sometimes they would enter the wrong size cutouts. We are talking about differences of only 1-2 mm.

What do your woofer cutouts measure in mm? It can be as simple as taking some rough sandpaper and going around the inside of the outer perimiter many times to enlarger it a bit. Of course, you must be careful so as to not damage the finish (if you care about that).

Let me know what yours measure. Are you using calipers to get an exact measurement? Calipers are very helpful with regard to this.

https://www.amazon.com/MOOCK-Measuring-Electronic-Micrometer-Conversion/dp/B08X44ZX9J/

Worth the $22 to gain the precision.

[merrymaid520]

With our domestic cabinet maker, while they were very good, they did have some problems keeping to precise tolerances. This always puzzled me, especially since I assisted them with the purchase of a highly advanced $100K + CNC many years ago. As I recall, they were a bit disorganized though and they had to reprogram the CNC several times and sometimes they would enter the wrong size cutouts. We are talking about differences of only 1-2 mm.

What do your woofer cutouts measure in mm? It can be as simple as taking some rough sandpaper and going around the inside of the outer perimiter many times to enlarger it a bit. Of course, you must be careful so as to not damage the finish (if you care about that).

Let me know what yours measure. Are you using calipers to get an exact measurement? Calipers are very helpful with regard to this.

https://www.amazon.com/MOOCK-Measuring-Electronic-Micrometer-Conversion/dp/B08X44ZX9J/

Worth the $22 to gain the precision.

Dave, this is very relevant to my situation. I ordered the caliper to see how much I need to enlarge the openings. If sanding that inner diameter, if still done carefully, won’t some finish be removed overall after it’s done? I wasn’t sure if this would be visible after the fact or not?

[davef]

Dave, this is very relevant to my situation. I ordered the caliper to see how much I need to enlarge the openings. If sanding that inner diameter, if still done carefully, won’t some finish be removed overall after it’s done? I wasn’t sure if this would be visible after the fact or not?

I think it all depends how much material you have to remove. My woodworking skills are poor - so I really can't offer much advice on this. It might be worth consulting with a local furniture or cabinet repair company. A procedure like this might be quite inexpensive, simple and quick for them, using a router or other techniques. It would likely be best to have them come to your place when you receive the parts.

Years ago we had an employee (Sal) who was good at this. I recall he would use painter's tape on the cabinet around the perimeter of a cutout to protect the surface and I think he used a basic Dremel power tool with a plunge router attachment with a fine grit sanding bit.

[uniquepicture]

I will be following this thread with great interest over the next several days and months. I bought my RAAL Towers about a year ago. They’re the best audio purchase I’ve ever made (even better than my 2EXs and Sierra-1 NRTs!). The RAALs just sound great with everything I throw at them. Female vocals are a priority for me, and I’ve never heard speakers perform better with female vocals than these. I’m totally satisfied, but also obviously intrigued by ELX developments!

I will be watching from the sidelines as the first to upgrade report their various impressions and findings. I doubt I will dive into any upgrade straightaway — as I said above, I’ve only had the Towers for a year, and love the sound I’m getting in my relatively small space. I’m also not into a lot of bass and I don’t really desire concert-level volume out of my setup. So I need to see detailed reports from owners of the upgrades about the other sonic improvements before I go for it myself.

Looking forward to hearing more !!!

[jimlucci]

I recently upgraded my Sierra 1's to the LX versions and the procedure is almost identical to the Tower upgrade process (only there are 2 drivers to replace not three and there is no soldering requirement). I just read the instructions for the Tower upgrade and am curious as to why the new crossovers don't just include leads for the Tweeter and the Midwoofer instead of desoldering the existing leads from the old crossover and resoldering them to the new crossover? It is not that it is terribly difficult to do that, but it just seems less risky to have new leads already attached.

[racrawford65]

I was wondering the same thing as you, jimlucci

[jimlucci]

I suspect it may have something to do with the routing or securing of those leads within the cabinet. I guess we will have to wait till Dave weighs in on it.

[bkdc]

The wires pass through an area where they are hot-glued or epoxied in as cabinet compartments are separated from each other. It is easier to save and unsolder the wires than to attempt removal of this hardened material to replace the wires.

[Ascend0577]

Dave, are the EX and LX drivers in the ELX towers the same as those in the 2EX V2 and the LX two-way speakers? Or is it like the original towers where the cones appear similar,
but are otherwise optimized for the towers (different Fs/Thiele-Small parameters, magnetic structure, etc.)?

The work of all the NFS-optimized speakers looks to be absolutely amazing! Congratulations on such great achievements! I'm hoping a little bit of the goodness trickles down to the CBM-170SE.

[racrawford65]

Thanks, bkdc, for the explanation.

Wondering then if those existing wires couldn’t be cut and then attached/spliced to pre-soldered wire leads on the new crossover?

[goldark]

Dave, are the EX and LX drivers in the ELX towers the same as those in the 2EX V2 and the LX two-way speakers? Or is it like the original towers where the cones appear similar,
but are otherwise optimized for the towers (different Fs/Thiele-Small parameters, magnetic structure, etc.)?

The work of all the NFS-optimized speakers looks to be absolutely amazing! Congratulations on such great achievements! I'm hoping a little bit of the goodness trickles down to the CBM-170SE.

And hopefully the HTM 200SE as well

[Natural1]

Dave we are dying (for info) out here! 3 days and post #2 is not populated yet. Seriously, please!

Sincerely,
The Great Unwashed

[Jonnyozero3]

Dave we are dying (for info) out here! 3 days and post #2 is not populated yet. Seriously, please!

Sincerely,
The Great Unwashed

Whatever you do, don't call Dina and place an order for Dave to be locked in his most creative-blogger-forum-generating-space while we fund deliveries from DoorGrubbermatecart to keep him sequestered until all seven updates are complete....

[Chris S.]

Dave we are dying (for info) out here! 3 days and post #2 is not populated yet. Seriously, please!

Sincerely,
The Great Unwashed

I’ve refreshed this thread more times than I’d care to admit haha.

[wtrimble]

Agreed we are all waiting anxiously on further information

[laserllama]

Whatever you do, don't call Dina and place an order for Dave to be locked in his most creative-blogger-forum-generating-space while we fund deliveries from DoorGrubbermatecart to keep him sequestered until all seven updates are complete....

Who needs reserved2 to reserved7, right? Just enable the send money buttons, I will buy it whatever it is and hope it doesn't only come in plaid by the time I actually read the reserved7 post. Plaid can be fixed! New idea BTW, speaker costumes? Think about it. Speakers could go as different things for Halloween. Money making opportunity. Anyway... yeah....

Perhaps the Elves are busy assembling things at the North pole at the moment, that is probably understandable

[NegativeEntropy]

I’ve refreshed this thread more times than I’d care to admit haha.

Here's an idea (brace yourselves gang): Stop asking Dave questions so he has time to get back to post #2 :).

[Chris S.]

Here's an idea (brace yourselves gang): Stop asking Dave questions so he has time to get back to post #2 :).

It's so crazy it might just work!

[Natural1]

It's so crazy it might just work!

Apparently it did.

Thanks Dave!

[Natural1]

Dave - A question on cabinets... Sounds like the current in-stock cabinets are domestic for Horizon and import for the Towers... and so I assume the finishes on these are not a match?

Thank you!

[davef]

I do apologize for taking a bit longer than expected with posts. We have been swamped with emails, phone calls and getting orders out and I am simply exhausted. However, we are slowly getting caught up now :)

[Shazb0t]

$3,046 intro pricing to upgrade my ribbon set, ouch! I really do want them, but I'm not sure I can personally justify that expenditure. Here's to hoping that the NFS optimized crossover upgrades come in at substantially reduced pricing! I need to buy something to support your work here, lmao.

[davef]

$3,046 intro pricing to upgrade my ribbon set, ouch! I really do want them, but I'm not sure I can personally justify that expenditure. Here's to hoping that the NFS optimized crossover upgrades come in at substantially reduced pricing! I need to buy something to support your work here, lmao.

I certainly understand, the reality is that this is an incredible price when you think about it. In your case, 6 LX woofers, 3 EX woofers, 3 ELX crossovers. That breaks down to about $250 per part.

I think the best option for you would be to go ELX upgrade for the left/right towers and V2 upgrade for the center (crossover change). V2 upgrade shouldn't come in at around $300.

[davef]

Dave - A question on cabinets... Sounds like the current in-stock cabinets are domestic for Horizon and import for the Towers... and so I assume the finishes on these are not a match?

Thank you!

Definitely not an exact match, but close - it all depends on the finish. Best to give us a call and discuss with Dina. We *should* have new Horizon cabinets in 4-5 months and we are usually OK with offering a loaner for the center for a purchase like this. Meaning, we can swap the center for you when the time comes.

[davef]

I just read the instructions for the Tower upgrade and am curious as to why the new crossovers don't just include leads for the Tweeter and the Midwoofer instead of desoldering the existing leads from the old crossover and resoldering them to the new crossover? It is not that it is terribly difficult to do that, but it just seems less risky to have new leads already attached.

2 Reasons.

Reason 1 is that the wires from the crossover to the RAAL 70-20xram are soldered directly to the tweeter, there are no connector tabs, just solder pads (this is the most stable electrical connection possible). Soldering these wires to the RAAL is quite difficult as it must be done inside the cabinet, it takes much more skill than soldering at the crossover itself. And if someone makes a mistake, or heats up the RAAL's solder pads too much, there goes a $700 tweeter. For every ribbon tower we have ever shipped, I alone handle this critical solder connection.

Reason 2, the midrange driver is housed in its own fully sealed compartment, and it must remain airtight. When we assemble these speakers, the hole that the crossover wires travel through from the crossover to the midrange is sealed up using a lot of hot melt. A new hole would have to be drilled or all the glue would have to somehow be removed - both of these options are much more difficult than simply desoldering these wires at the crossover board.

Hope this makes sense!

[davef]

Dave, are the EX and LX drivers in the ELX towers the same as those in the 2EX V2 and the LX two-way speakers? Or is it like the original towers where the cones appear similar,
but are otherwise optimized for the towers (different Fs/Thiele-Small parameters, magnetic structure, etc.)?

Same exact drivers. It was always our intention to eventually use the LX woofers in an upgraded version of the tower. And with the new crossover topology, the EX woofer performs perfectly.

thanks!

[wtrimble]

Dave so my understanding is that the ribbon tweeter is not changing is that correct? The changed parts are the woofers and the crossover?

[davef]

Dave so my understanding is that the ribbon tweeter is not changing is that correct? The changed parts are the woofers and the crossover?

Correct, the towers and horizon already use the best ribbon tweeter on the planet :)

[jimlucci]

2 Reasons.

Reason 1 is that the wires from the crossover to the RAAL 70-20xram are soldered directly to the tweeter, there are no connector tabs, just solder pads (this is the most stable electrical connection possible). Soldering these wires to the RAAL is quite difficult as it must be done inside the cabinet, it takes much more skill than soldering at the crossover itself. And if someone makes a mistake, or heats up the RAAL's solder pads too much, there goes a $700 tweeter. For every ribbon tower we have ever shipped, I alone handle this critical solder connection.

Reason 2, the midrange driver is housed in its own fully sealed compartment, and it must remain airtight. When we assemble these speakers, the hole that the crossover wires travel through from the crossover to the midrange is sealed up using a lot of hot melt. A new hole would have to be drilled or all the glue would have to somehow be removed - both of these options are much more difficult than simply desoldering these wires at the crossover board.

Hope this makes sense!

Uhm - those are two really good reasons. :-)

[racrawford65]

Thanks for posting the measurements, Dave. Not sure if you have them, but curious (and might be interesting to others considering the upgrades) if it is possible to overlay (where able) measurements of the original Towers and perhaps x-over only upgrade.

Obviously the full monty upgrade (drivers, x-over) would be the best, but would be interested in your thoughts/impressions on what the x-over only upgrade brings to the party and then incrementally the new drivers. I’d give Dina a call, but currently in Brazil having a house remodeled so a phone call would be $$, which I prefer to use towards speaker upgraded��

[RicardoJoa]

Cant see the measurements attachment

[davef]

Cant see the measurements attachment

3rd post

https://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7715-We-Saved-The-Best-For-Last!&p=70155#post70155

[RicardoJoa]

Not sure why, but is not showing. I already clear the history on my phone. Anyone else? Or just me

[database]

I see the measurements in desktop but not mobile. On mobile I was only able to see them by clicking "Full Site" at the bottom of the page.

[Ascend0577]

Same here, only seeing the measurements when selecting Full Site. Thanks for the tip!

[Natural1]

Definitely not an exact match, but close - it all depends on the finish. Best to give us a call and discuss with Dina. We *should* have new Horizon cabinets in 4-5 months and we are usually OK with offering a loaner for the center for a purchase like this. Meaning, we can swap the center for you when the time comes.

Thank you Dave!

I'm still on the fence a little. I'm not sure which version is the right one for me (Ribbon or Titan) considering my use case. Music is high priority along with fairly high volume HT use. I'm thinking the HT side of that probably points me in the direction of the Titan, but not sure. I have the Sierra 2EX in my office and I wouldn't trade them for anything, but that's a "normal" volume situation. Looking forward to seeing measurements on the Titan version as well as user impressions.

Also, I was guessing the tower/horizon upgrades would be coming mid-year so I upgraded my subs just 2 weeks ago. Might need to take a break to replenish the audio budget. Decisions, decisions, decisions...

[NegativeEntropy]

Just went through the ELX Ribbon measurements - very nice Dave! As expected based on the other EX V2s, looks nearly textbook to my admittedly untrained eye.

I had run the numbers on the Sierra LX as mains for my relatively large HT and the lower efficiency would make it hard to get there, needing about 400A for reference level (probably pushing up distortion in the process too), but the higher efficiency of the ELX Titan drops that to 180W, perfectly matched to the relatively affordable Ncore 502MP based amps which hit 180-200W before the knee in the distortion curve.

[racrawford65]

I see the measurements in desktop but not mobile. On mobile I was only able to see them by clicking "Full Site" at the bottom of the page.

Same here.

[database]

Hi Dave, thanks for the measurements! I was looking at the distortion graphs in particular, and they look to be an impressive improvement over the old towers and horizon. I was wondering, would it be possible for you to post graphs showing the relative harmonic distortion as well?

I was looking at ASR's review of the Revel F328Be (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-f328be-speaker-review.17443/) (their current flagship which costs over 3x as much as the ELX), and both absolute and relative distortion graphs are included. But it's a bit difficult to compare graphs of absolute distortion between two different speakers. For example, looking at both absolute distortion graphs at a glance, I made the mistake of thinking the F328Be performed a lot better at a first glance because the THD is 50 dB or below at all frequencies, while the ELX reaches as high as 60 dB in the bass frequencies. But I think ASR's use of a flat 50 dB threshold in the absolute distortion graph is misleading, because the fundamental isn't ever flat. After looking more closely I realized that while the Revels appeared to show less distortion in bass frequencies, they also have less deep bass response, period, which is visible in the fundamental. It makes sense that the Revels have less absolute distortion in the bass region when they aren't producing the same level of bass as the ELX, so it's not an appropriate comparison.

I think ASR's relative THD graph addresses this issue, since I believe the distortion percentages are calculated based on the difference between fundamental and THD, which makes it much easier to compare distortion between different speakers with different frequency responses.

I manually calculated relative THD at some of the bass frequencies by taking the difference between fundamental and THD, and found that distortion of the ELX was very competitive with the F328Be, and seemed to be within ~2 dB in the worst case in the bass region, but it would be much easier to make direct comparisons to other speakers with a relative THD graph, and then people might be less prone to make the same mistake I did.

Anyway, you weren't kidding about the ELX being a true endgame that can stand up to some of the best speakers out there, at a fraction of the price. Incredible stuff!

[James]

I love our Towers, but will be eagerly waiting to hear from people when they get these. If they really are an endgame speaker for both music and ht, competitive with $20,000/pair speakers, they're the deal of the century.

And if it's possible, I'd love to see some demo videos of them, particularly with 2-channel acoustic music.

[laserllama]

And if it's possible, I'd love to see some demo videos of them, particularly with 2-channel acoustic music.

hey this video makes them sound just like my computer speakers

[James]

Yes, I know.

But I have found demo videos to be very helpful, and can hear clear differences between speakers. The Towers were clearly better than other speakers in demo videos of the same music, on the same equipment and in the same room.

Some SVS speakers were very close, but I preferred the treble on the Towers.

[Jonnyozero3]

Hi Dave, thanks for the measurements! I was looking at the distortion graphs in particular, and they look to be an impressive improvement over the old towers and horizon. I was wondering, would it be possible for you to post graphs showing the relative harmonic distortion as well?

I was looking at ASR's review of the Revel F328Be (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-f328be-speaker-review.17443/) (their current flagship which costs over 3x as much as the ELX), and both absolute and relative distortion graphs are included. But it's a bit difficult to compare graphs of absolute distortion between two different speakers. For example, looking at both absolute distortion graphs at a glance, I made the mistake of thinking the F328Be performed a lot better at a first glance because the THD is 50 dB or below at all frequencies, while the ELX reaches as high as 60 dB in the bass frequencies. But I think ASR's use of a flat 50 dB threshold in the absolute distortion graph is misleading, because the fundamental isn't ever flat. After looking more closely I realized that while the Revels appeared to show less distortion in bass frequencies, they also have less deep bass response, period, which is visible in the fundamental. It makes sense that the Revels have less absolute distortion in the bass region when they aren't producing the same level of bass as the ELX, so it's not an appropriate comparison.

I think ASR's relative THD graph addresses this issue, since I believe the distortion percentages are calculated based on the difference between fundamental and THD, which makes it much easier to compare distortion between different speakers with different frequency responses.

I manually calculated relative THD at some of the bass frequencies by taking the difference between fundamental and THD, and found that distortion of the ELX was very competitive with the F328Be, and seemed to be within ~2 dB in the worst case in the bass region, but it would be much easier to make direct comparisons to other speakers with a relative THD graph, and then people might be less prone to make the same mistake I did.

Anyway, you weren't kidding about the ELX being a true endgame that can stand up to some of the best speakers out there, at a fraction of the price. Incredible stuff!

The fact we are comparing $5K speakers to $8K-$16K speakers and we need to get to this level of details to discuss the differences in measurements blows my mind. Really impressed.

[Mj30250]

I love our Towers, but will be eagerly waiting to hear from people when they get these. If they really are an endgame speaker for both music and ht, competitive with $20,000/pair speakers, they're the deal of the century.

And if it's possible, I'd love to see some demo videos of them, particularly with 2-channel acoustic music.

I don't have any $20,000 speakers laying around the house, but I was very fortunate to have been given the opportunity to upgrade my standard RAAL towers to the ELX versions several months ago. Prior to that, I compared the standard RAAL towers to Revel F226Bes. Overall, I preferred the Revels. They sounded better balanced and more versatile over a larger variety of music.

After upgrading to the ELXs, I then compared them again to the Revels, extensively and on multiple occasions over the span of months. The ELXs clearly won on nearly every track I tried. Where there wasn't a large victory for the Ascends, both speakers were extremely close.

These certainly sound end game to me.

[curtis]

Yes, I know.

But I have found demo videos to be very helpful, and can hear clear differences between speakers. The Towers were clearly better than other speakers in demo videos of the same music, on the same equipment and in the same room.

Some SVS speakers were very close, but I preferred the treble on the Towers.
While this is off topic..

There are so many factors at play here, from how the speakers were recorded the to the playback device. Unless these two things are exactly the same and everything in between, there is no way to be able to make any meaningful differentiation.

[James]

I don't have any $20,000 speakers laying around the house, but I was very fortunate to have been given the opportunity to upgrade my standard RAAL towers to the ELX versions several months ago. Prior to that, I compared the standard RAAL towers to Revel F226Bes. Overall, I preferred the Revels. They sounded better balanced and more versatile over a larger variety of music.

After upgrading to the ELXs, I then compared them again to the Revels, extensively and on multiple occasions over the span of months. The ELXs clearly won on nearly every track I tried. Where there wasn't a large victory for the Ascends, both speakers were extremely close.

These certainly sound end game to me.

Thanks - that's good information to have!

If it's not too much trouble, can you briefly describe how the ELX Towers were better than the Revels, especially on 2-channel acoustic music?

[curtis]

I know Dave is calling these "end-game" speakers, but I don't trust him.

I've been an Ascend customer for many years and Dave always ups his game. Don't you all agree?

[racrawford65]

Jeez Curtis. Don’t spill the beans about the Mega Tower EXL’s that are in the works. JK🤪

[Jonnyozero3]

I know Dave is calling these "end-game" speakers, but I don't trust him.

I've been an Ascend customer for many years and Dave always ups his game. Don't you all agree?

As an owner of eight different Ascend speaker models over the years...

...yeah I agree. Ah, damnit Curtis. (starts looking for bitcoins between couch cushions)

[laserllama]

(starts looking for bitcoins between couch cushions)

Maybe it's like Avenger's Endgame? It could be like where a giant purple California Space Raisin attempts to disappear half the world for potentially valid but unethical reasons and they are stopped by like 542 different superheroes using timey-wimey magic, but so many superheroes get played out so they have to make up new lame ones before realizing those new superheroes aren't any good and then they have to reboot the old ones all again.

[Jonnyozero3]

Spoiler alert!

[dsweet]

Feels like these updates make it clear what a real value the LXs represent. Just ordered a pair + a ribbon Horizon. Will have to see if I can resist the pull of the ELX upgrade for the Horizon over time.

[ahender]

The comparison I look forward to seeing is the ELX Tower Ribbon and the BMR Tower. I bought my first Sierra speakers in 2008. Bought my first BMRs a year ago. Both brands offer tremendous value.

[davef]

The comparison I look forward to seeing is the ELX Tower Ribbon and the BMR Tower. I bought my first Sierra speakers in 2008. Bought my first BMRs a year ago. Both brands offer tremendous value.

Fairer comparison would likely be the newer tower they have been hinting at. Based on the components BMR tower uses, all of which I am intimately familiar with, these 2 speakers can not compare with regards to dynamics, power handling and just raw output capabilities. RAAL 64-10 is quite limited in dynamic range.

Titan Tower (not ELX) would be the more appropriate comparison to BMR Tower, at what will be a considerably lower cost.

[davef]

I know Dave is calling these "end-game" speakers, but I don't trust him.

I've been an Ascend customer for many years and Dave always ups his game. Don't you all agree?

Thanks Curtis, you made me laugh. I am working on no sleep and the phones are literally non-stop - I need a good laugh :)

[ahender]

Post removed after reading more of the previous posts.

[Mahawkma]

So, do you guys do layaways. . . :) So, would you say the Titan is more appropriate for a majority HT system? I have the LXs that I upgraded from the S2s and they do a bang up job but always wanted a tower to fill in the mid that I am sure I am missing.

[uniquepicture]

A little miffed to hear that the original Towers now sound, in comparison, “constrained and lifeless.” For some of us, the 3k spent on those was no small amount. And I’m not sure it’s in Ascend’s best interest to alienate potential future buyers at the 3k price point with that kind of unflattering description of the original RAAL Towers.

[NegativeEntropy]

A little miffed to hear that the original Towers now sound, in comparison, “constrained and lifeless.” For some of us, the 3k spent on those was no small amount. And I’m not sure it’s in Ascend’s best interest to alienate potential future buyers at the 3k price point with that kind of unflattering description of the original RAAL Towers.

I think I understand your sentiment, but the reality is Dave needs to find a way to verbally describe the differences he perceives.

Here's my view: For many products in the same competitive space, you can compare them on a number of dimensions. On any given dimension, there is often a relatively linear relationship between $$ spent and the resulting performance, but only up to a point, then there is a "knee in the curve" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knee_of_a_curve to the right of which and the curve flattens and you have to spend a lot more $$ for each increase in performance. A more common phrase might be "diminishing returns".

Since we're computer users here, something like desktop video card or CPU performance in each generation often follows this knee in the curve relationship. Unless I have an unusual need, I try to buy right at the knee. That nets the best performance one can get w/o "wasting" $$.

It's hard to simplify speaker performance in this way, but I think the general concept still applies.

If you plotted all of Ascend's products, these new towers would be at the far right of whatever curve resulted. So the new ELX Titans will cost about 70% more than the NrT do ($4400 vs $2600). Do they offer "nearly twice" the "performance"? I would think not. Given that all Ascend speakers sound good (none are broken implementations) if value was what mattered most to you, you would buy the CBM-170SE and call it a day. Yet most of us have spent more than that for our mains.

The current knee in the curve is probably the new CBM340SE2.

And if sound quality for the $ is what matters most to a person, they should buy a good set of $100-200 headphones and stop there. One needs to spend ~10x more on speakers to get equivalent performance.

In fact, I would argue all speaker purchases north of a few hundred USD are lifestyle/luxury products. That's the reality of this hobby.

So then, these new towers are for those folks that (1) want something with even more performance than the OG Towers and (2) have the budget for it.

Finally, and I think most usefully once a person is in the market, if you plotted the ELX towers on a curve with speakers from other makers with similar "performance", the ELX would be on the left side of the curve (or, pedantically, more of a scatter plot), because they are much less expensive than others' products in the same performance class. I think something similar can be said for most-all of Ascend's products. That's a large part of why we are all customers (and repeat customers) - Dave's designs offer a high value per unit of performance. The ELX appear to continue that vision, just broadening the scope of potential customers for which the OG towers did not provide "enough" performance.

OK, end of rant/ramble.

(edit: fixed html link)

[422415]

So the new ELX Titans will cost about 70% more than the NrT do ($4400 vs $2600). Do they offer "nearly twice" the "performance"? I would think not.

I agree with almost everything you said, however I think there is a good chance the ELX are 2x the performance of the NrT Towers.

[James]

It's very hard to quantify these sorts of things, and different people have different priorities.

For example, the new Towers are supposed to offer more in the way of dynamics - if that's important to you, you may value it more highly than somebody else.

And different uses may also come into play - people wanting a home theater experience might be looking for different things than 2-channel listeners.

[Jonnyozero3]

A little miffed to hear that the original Towers now sound, in comparison, “constrained and lifeless.” For some of us, the 3k spent on those was no small amount. And I’m not sure it’s in Ascend’s best interest to alienate potential future buyers at the 3k price point with that kind of unflattering description of the original RAAL Towers.

To add to NegativeEntropy's thoughts, the description of something "better" doesn't make what you have "lesser".

Another example: A base Porsche 911 is a significant investment ($106K), and is by most accounts "better", more luxurious, and faster than most cars on the road. However, go to a road course and race the base 911 against a track-focused 911 GT3? The base 911 will get left in the dust by a staggering amount and will be lucky to see the GT3's tail lights once in awhile when it's lapped. In that context, the base model Porsche might be described as "slow"...but it's only in comparison. The GT3 has incredible track performance, and it's hard to describe without such comparison against a known quantity. When selling a GT3, Porsche could certainly say it makes a base 911 feel slow. Since the base 911 is already known to be fast, that comment elevates the GT3 and helps describe it, but fundamentally doesn't take away from the base 911. The base 911 is still as fast and luxurious as it was before the GT3 was built.

So, a base Porsche 911 owner can still be happy with what they have...the value and performance of what they bought didn't change, they didn't pay almost twice as much for the GT3 ($170K), and the "slow" descriptor isn't an insult when taken in context.

It's still a Porsche!

My $0.02

[database]

A little miffed to hear that the original Towers now sound, in comparison, “constrained and lifeless.” For some of us, the 3k spent on those was no small amount. And I’m not sure it’s in Ascend’s best interest to alienate potential future buyers at the 3k price point with that kind of unflattering description of the original RAAL Towers.

I can understand the frustration, but personally I think now is the most exciting time to be an owner of the Ascend Towers. Consider the situation with just about any other speaker manufacturer. First of all, most would never be able to release a new flagship that completely outclassed their old flagship. For example the newer Revel 328Be is called their flagship but most people have a hard time calling it definitely better than their older flagship Salon2, besides being more affordable. But let's assume another speaker manufacturer did release a new flagship that trounces their old flagship. There are very few, if any, that would offer any upgrade path from the old flagship to the new flagship at all. If you wanted the new flagship you would just have to pay 5k for the new speakers, or live with your existing speakers, which are now apparently "constrained and lifeless."

This is where Ascend is pretty unique. First of all, Dave could have designed the ELX for a completely different cabinet than the old towers, such as one that's double in size, but he went out of his way to keep the ELX in the same cabinet. Of course there are benefits for Ascend in needing to manufacture less types of cabinets, but the customers also benefit in having the option to upgrade their speakers. This concept isn't new for Ascend, but it's rare in the audio industry, or any industry to be honest.

Going back to the "constrained and lifeless" old towers, if this was another speaker manufacturer, I would expect that to be marketing speak just to sell their new towers. But I 100% believe Dave's impressions here, because I actually felt similar impressions when I compared my towers to the Sierra LX in my room about 8 months ago (see here for those impressions (https://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7588-Introducing-the-Sierra-LX!!!&p=68752&highlight=#post68752)).

Another thing it seems people are forgetting is the V2 towers. You suggest Ascend is alienating potential future buyers of the old towers, but given Ascend's history, it seems clear they will discontinue the old towers in favor of the V2 towers, which we haven't heard anything about yet. I assume some of the remaining reserved posts will discuss the V2 towers and V2 horizon, and I doubt those will sound constrained and lifeless at all. We also don't know pricing on the V2 upgrade kits, but the Sierra-2EX to Sierra-2EX V2 upgrade kit might offer a rough idea. The tower V2 kit is probably a bit more expensive as it's a more complex crossover.

So in short, I think Ascend is doing quite the opposite of alienating existing or future tower owners. If this happened with just about any other speaker manufacturer, you would be out of luck without just paying another 3k or 5k for the V2 or ELX towers. But Ascend gives you two options, if you don't want to keep your existing speakers. You can upgrade to V2 for a price that hasn't been revealed, but I imagine will be relatively affordable (hard to say because everyone has different ideas on what is affordable), and that will probably be a pretty significant upgrade if the upgrades on the V2 Luna, V2 Duo, and V2 Sierra 2EX are anything to go by. So that is definitely going to be the most cost effective upgrade option. And then the second option - you can upgrade to a completely different class of speaker, which costs 40% as much as buying that speaker new. Personally that's the option I'm most interested - 2k to get speakers that cost 5k new and compete with five figure speakers sounds like the audio deal of the century to me, and only existing tower owners are fortunate enough to be offered that deal.

Of course I payed 3k for the old towers a few years ago and you payed 3k for them more recently, so the value for the ELX upgrade doesn't seem as good for you. But still, in that case you can still enjoy your towers for a few years and still have access to that deal of the century whenever you want. It's hard to see that as a bad thing.

[ahender]

I can understand the frustration, but personally I think now is the most exciting time to be an owner of the Ascend Towers. Consider the situation with just about any other speaker manufacturer. First of all, most would never be able to release a new flagship that completely outclassed their old flagship. For example the newer Revel 328Be is called their flagship but most people have a hard time calling it definitely better than their older flagship Salon2, besides being more affordable. But let's assume another speaker manufacturer did release a new flagship that trounces their old flagship. There are very few, if any, that would offer any upgrade path from the old flagship to the new flagship at all. If you wanted the new flagship you would just have to pay 5k for the new speakers, or live with your existing speakers, which are now apparently "constrained and lifeless."

This is where Ascend is pretty unique. First of all, Dave could have designed the ELX for a completely different cabinet than the old towers, such as one that's double in size, but he went out of his way to keep the ELX in the same cabinet. Of course there are benefits for Ascend in needing to manufacture less types of cabinets, but the customers also benefit in having the option to upgrade their speakers. This concept isn't new for Ascend, but it's rare in the audio industry, or any industry to be honest.

Going back to the "constrained and lifeless" old towers, if this was another speaker manufacturer, I would expect that to be marketing speak just to sell their new towers. But I 100% believe Dave's impressions here, because I actually felt similar impressions when I compared my towers to the Sierra LX in my room about 8 months ago (see here for those impressions (https://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7588-Introducing-the-Sierra-LX!!!&p=68752&highlight=#post68752)).

Another thing it seems people are forgetting is the V2 towers. You suggest Ascend is alienating potential future buyers of the old towers, but given Ascend's history, it seems clear they will discontinue the old towers in favor of the V2 towers, which we haven't heard anything about yet. I assume some of the remaining reserved posts will discuss the V2 towers and V2 horizon, and I doubt those will sound constrained and lifeless at all. We also don't know pricing on the V2 upgrade kits, but the Sierra-2EX to Sierra-2EX V2 upgrade kit might offer a rough idea. The tower V2 kit is probably a bit more expensive as it's a more complex crossover.

So in short, I think Ascend is doing quite the opposite of alienating existing or future tower owners. If this happened with just about any other speaker manufacturer, you would be out of luck without just paying another 3k or 5k for the V2 or ELX towers. But Ascend gives you two options, if you don't want to keep your existing speakers. You can upgrade to V2 for a price that hasn't been revealed, but I imagine will be relatively affordable (hard to say because everyone has different ideas on what is affordable), and that will probably be a pretty significant upgrade if the upgrades on the V2 Luna, V2 Duo, and V2 Sierra 2EX are anything to go by. So that is definitely going to be the most cost effective upgrade option. And then the second option - you can upgrade to a completely different class of speaker, which costs 40% as much as buying that speaker new. Personally that's the option I'm most interested - 2k to get speakers that cost 5k new and compete with five figure speakers sounds like the audio deal of the century to me, and only existing tower owners are fortunate enough to be offered that deal.
The prices were announced on page 1, post 2. What’s not available is a crossover upgrade.

[NegativeEntropy]

I agree with almost everything you said, however I think there is a good chance the ELX are 2x the performance of the NrT Towers.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong! I am strongly leaning toward upgrading mine, but I am fortunate in that i have the disposable cash on hand to do so. The hard part will likely be deciding if I send them in for the RAAL or do the upgrade myself and move from NrT to Titan. If I go the later route I could upgrade one and then compare them in mono for a while (though of course accurate comparisons are difficult, with level matching and not being blind of course).

[ahender]

Hey, I hope I'm wrong! I am strongly leaning toward upgrading mine, but I am fortunate in that i have the disposable cash on hand to do so. The hard part will likely be deciding if I send them in for the RAAL or do the upgrade myself and move from NrT to Titan. If I go the later route I could upgrade one and then compare them in mono for a while (though of course accurate comparisons are difficult, with level matching and not being blind of course).
Member MJ30250 on ASR states the ELX Tower is the most balanced speaker he has ever heard. The ASR Tower upgrade thread is worth reading. I imagine he has also posted here somewhere.

[James]

I don't have any $20,000 speakers laying around the house, but I was very fortunate to have been given the opportunity to upgrade my standard RAAL towers to the ELX versions several months ago. Prior to that, I compared the standard RAAL towers to Revel F226Bes. Overall, I preferred the Revels. They sounded better balanced and more versatile over a larger variety of music.

After upgrading to the ELXs, I then compared them again to the Revels, extensively and on multiple occasions over the span of months. The ELXs clearly won on nearly every track I tried. Where there wasn't a large victory for the Ascends, both speakers were extremely close.

These certainly sound end game to me.


Here is a post from them. And here's the post from ASR:

Ascend Acoustics Announces New Klippel NFS-Optimized Sierra Towers and Horizon Center | Page 3 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ascend-acoustics-announces-new-klippel-nfs-optimized-sierra-towers-and-horizon-center.39567/page-3)

It's the last post on the page.

[NegativeEntropy]

Member MJ30250 on ASR states the ELX Tower is the most balanced speaker he has ever heard. The ASR Tower upgrade thread is worth reading. I imagine he has also posted here somewhere.

Thank you, I have followed that thread in the last week. I'm glad Dave commented in it on THD measurements too, as I had (falsely) assumed the Kippel measurements could be compared site to site (they cannot).

(for others' reference, the thread is here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ascend-acoustics-announces-new-klippel-nfs-optimized-sierra-towers-and-horizon-center.39567/

[diesel79]

I have a ribbon Horizon and I think it’s great and have enjoyed it immensely the past 5 years. That being said, I think it’s awesome that Dave has come out with something like the ELX line. When I read his impression of the new speakers I was sold because I know how awesome they already are.
I’m in line to get mine upgraded.

[davef]

A little miffed to hear that the original Towers now sound, in comparison, “constrained and lifeless.” For some of us, the 3k spent on those was no small amount. And I’m not sure it’s in Ascend’s best interest to alienate potential future buyers at the 3k price point with that kind of unflattering description of the original RAAL Towers.

I get it, the difference in performance from original towers at $3200 to ELX at ~$5k is considerable and should be at such a significant price increase.

Advancements occur continuously and our towers are now 11 years old without a single performance change, which is unheard of in this industry. Most technology companies offer a new improved product once per year, sometimes even sooner.

It wasn’t that long ago when I invested no small sum in the purchase of, at that time, the fastest graphics card available. RTX-2080 Ti. We needed it for renders. Sure enough, only 3 months later Nvidia released an entire new line of graphics cards (RTX 3060 I believe), not only was that new card quite a bit faster, but it was also about half the price I paid for my card. I was quite miffed too, but my 2080 Ti has worked well and been serving the purpose I purchased it for.

As I mentioned, I completely get it, I am a consumer too, and this is exactly why we almost always offer an upgrade path. I feel it is fair, honest and and most importantly ethical.

The really good news for original tower owners is that for a very reasonable price, you can upgrade to the newer technology, V2 version, which really opens the original towers up, and brings them closer to elx performance. Or, you can upgrade your towers to ELX, and your total expenditure works out to be basically the same as if you purchased a new pair of ELX. You have a lot of choices, which includes continuing to enjoy your towers as they are, and as they have been beloved by consumers for 11 years now...

[davef]

I agree with almost everything you said, however I think there is a good chance the ELX are 2x the performance of the NrT Towers.

I honestly don't know how to put a number or a percentage on "how much better" anything else is. That stated, and this is not marketing speak, the ELX versions are seriously a HUGE performance upgrade from the originals, both in the ribbon and dome versions.

[422415]

I honestly don't know how to put a number or a percentage on "how much better" anything else is. That stated, and this is not marketing speak, the ELX versions are seriously a HUGE performance upgrade from the originals, both in the ribbon and dome versions.

Yeah this whole hobby is very hard to quantify.

[MDinno]

Alright, sorry for my scatter brain this morning but what's the difference between the V2 and the ELX?

[ahender]

Alright, sorry for my scatter brain this morning but what's the difference between the V2 and the ELX?
Post #49 on page 5 indicates the V2 Tower is a crossover upgrade. The Horizon will also have a crossover upgrade - post #84 page 9. Surprised they are not listed on page 1 as an upgrade option.

[Mj30250]

I'm sure the V2 information will be edited into the reserved posts in the near future.

But yes, the V2 is a crossover upgrade that maintains the same drivers. The ELX is a crossover upgrade with the addition of new drivers to replace the woofers / midrange.

[billy p]

Based on post 49 on page 5....and stating the obvious it clearly states for the ribbon....what if you're considering the LX (as i am:))path...considering the 2 transducer the RAAL...is significantly larger and more difficult to maneuver I'd think...all else being equal?

[parmodmehta]

I am thinking of an upgrade. Currently have Sierra 2EX and Sierra Horizon Ribbon. They are mainly used for TV and movies in the living room with limited music. I am looking for an upgrade recommendation. I guess I have two options: keep the ribbons or go with titan. Thoughts?

[Jonnyozero3]

I am thinking of an upgrade. Currently have Sierra 2EX and Sierra Horizon Ribbon. They are mainly used for TV and movies in the living room with limited music. I am looking for an upgrade recommendation. I guess I have two options: keep the ribbons or go with titan. Thoughts?

I am by no means an expert, but a few thoughts at first glance:

RAAL ribbon:
+ ultimate treble detail (start/stop/decay)
+ usually preferred choice
+ wide horizontal dispersion (good for many seats, left to right)
+ looks super cool
- narrow vertical dispersion (sound changes if you stand up, or don't have the tweeter midpoint aligned with your ears by elevation or angle & distance)
- more expensive

Titan dome:
+ impressive treble detail
+ also wide horizontal dispersion (also good left to right)
+ very wide vertical dispersion (sound will change less if you stand up, or tweeter is not aligned on-axis to your ear holes in your setup)
+ costs less than RAAL
- not the ultimate in super detail compared to the RAAL Ribbon in question

I have RAALs in my towers and while I do spirited music listening from time to time, my main use cases are gaming, TV, and movies. That said, I am addicted to the smooth and revealing detail of the RAALs, and they will remain my choice for my mains. Titan may be a flexible solution for particular use cases, depending on your setup, and is more affordable.

Others will correct what I got wrong or missed. Also, I am providing this opinion as a RAAL user and forum reader, but I have not heard the Titan...(yet)

[merrymaid520]

Well the ELX Towers and horizon are now up and running! Unfortunately it took me all day being my towers had a smaller woofer cutout dimension. I had use a a dremel with a sanding bit and slowly sand off about .5mm on all 6 openings:(. Luckily the EX woofer fit as is!

The rest of the upgrade process was relatively simple just time consuming. The trickiest part was screwing down the crossovers. It’s hard to get leverage even using a flex bit on a drill.

Anyway, my time listening was limited but here’s a pic until I have more time to write impressions.

[pegdrgr]

I was one of the fortunate ones to receive an early set of the ELX towers with the Raal tweeter. I am an even mix of HT and music listening with my setup. I previously had Raal towers, and was 100% satisfied with the quality and sound of the towers. In much the same way many were blown away with how impressive the Sierra LX monitors are, I was even more so blown away with how the ELX tower’s deliver a full and rich sound compared to the previous model. This week I was able to upgrade my Horizon to an ELX Horizon. Even with the ELX towers already there, I once again got that wow factor as I watched shows and movies this weekend and got the added low end response from those amazing drivers Dave selected.

The fun factor that Dave set as a goal for the Sierra LX is even more pronounced with the ELX line. I am finally completely satisfied with my HT speaker setup. The first time my cousin walked in the room with the new ELX setup he literally stopped in his tracks and asked what I changed from my “old” Raal tower setup. This was during normal dialog during a streamed TV show. The difference is that pronounced.

I know not everyone has the means to purchase speakers like these, but I will say without the slightest hesitation, if you have the means, these speakers will change your world, and in my opinion, are worth so much more than Ascend charges for them.

When I got my LX monitors I felt like I was almost ready to drop my subwoofers, and just run the monitors. The ELX towers are the first speaker I have ever heard where I would be totally satisfied running them without subwoofers. For LFE big subs still provide more feel, but for music alone, the subs do nothing that the ELX can’t do on their own.

After months of listening I couldn’t be happier, the ELX line is amazing.

[parmodmehta]

I am by no means an expert, but a few thoughts at first glance:

RAAL ribbon:
+ ultimate treble detail (start/stop/decay)
+ best choice if acoustic or delicate music is your main go-to
+ wide horizontal dispersion (good for many seats, left to right)
- narrow vertical dispersion (sound changes if you stand up, or don't have the tweeter midpoint aligned with your ears by elevation or angle & distance)
- more expensive

Titan dome:
+ impressive treble detail
+ best choice for hard hitting music like rock, metal, etc.
+ also wide horizontal dispersion (also good left to right)
+ very wide vertical dispersion (will sound the same if you stand up, or tweeter is not aligned on-axis to your ear holes)
+ costs less than RAAL
- not the ultimate in super detail compared to the RAAL Ribbon in question

I have RAALs in my towers and while I do spirited music listening from time to time, my main use cases are gaming, TV, and movies. That said, I am addicted to the smooth and revealing detail of the RAALs, and they will remain my choice for my mains. I have the luxury of a limited seating area where the ear height is reasonably on-axis to the RAALs, so it works great for me. Titan is probably the more flexible and all-around solution, depending on your setup.

Others will correct what I got wrong or missed. Also, I am providing this opinion as a RAAL user and forum reader, but I have not heard the Titan...(yet)

Thanks. The goal is also to get good enough bass to remove my smaller psa xs15se subwoofer

[RicardoJoa]

I am thinking of an upgrade. Currently have Sierra 2EX and Sierra Horizon Ribbon. They are mainly used for TV and movies in the living room with limited music. I am looking for an upgrade recommendation. I guess I have two options: keep the ribbons or go with titan. Thoughts?

Unless you don’t like the way ribbon sounds. Maybe ex v2?

[racrawford65]

Nice setup, merrymaid520

Appreciate your impressions of the Tower upgrade, as well. I’m probably going to do the same once I’m back in the US from Brazil. Just not sure if I’ll do it myself (no experience soldering) or send to Ascend. If i send in, guess I’ll need to unbox my LX’s & Luna Duo center.

[James]

I was one of the fortunate ones to receive an early set of the ELX towers with the Raal tweeter. I am an even mix of HT and music listening with my setup. I previously had Raal towers, and was 100% satisfied with the quality and sound of the towers. In much the same way many were blown away with how impressive the Sierra LX monitors are, I was even more so blown away with how the ELX tower’s deliver a full and rich sound compared to the previous model. This week I was able to upgrade my Horizon to an ELX Horizon. Even with the ELX towers already there, I once again got that wow factor as I watched shows and movies this weekend and got the added low end response from those amazing drivers Dave selected.

The fun factor that Dave set as a goal for the Sierra LX is even more pronounced with the ELX line. I am finally completely satisfied with my HT speaker setup. The first time my cousin walked in the room with the new ELX setup he literally stopped in his tracks and asked what I changed from my “old” Raal tower setup. This was during normal dialog during a streamed TV show. The difference is that pronounced.

I know not everyone has the means to purchase speakers like these, but I will say without the slightest hesitation, if you have the means, these speakers will change your world, and in my opinion, are worth so much more than Ascend charges for them.

When I got my LX monitors I felt like I was almost ready to drop my subwoofers, and just run the monitors. The ELX towers are the first speaker I have ever heard where I would be totally satisfied running them without subwoofers. For LFE big subs still provide more feel, but for music alone, the subs do nothing that the ELX can’t do on their own.

After months of listening I couldn’t be happier, the ELX line is amazing.
Thank you - if it's not too much trouble, can you briefly describe the improvements you've found with 2-channel music listening, if you do that?

[midbass]

I’m so excited from upgrading my NRT towers to Ribbon ELX!

[laserllama]

+1 to keeping this on topic

I've got complete trust in Ascend here if they say it's that much more awesome than what they've already done -- why? The marketing on the existing Towers was WAAAAY undersold. There was no hype.

[Jonnyozero3]

Soooo....

Has anyone around here heard the Tower V2's with only the crossover upgrade? What are those like?

[bcg27]

I'm interested in that too. ~$1000 to upgrade the crossover on 3 speakers is a lot more palatable than $1000 per speaker to do the full ELX upgrade.

[parmodmehta]

Unless you don't like the way ribbon sounds. Maybe ex v2?

I guess it will also depend on the upgrade path for my EX because I am thinking of upgrading to LX with titan, and I don't think they will match with horizon ELS.

[davef]

Sorry guys - just a minor thread cleanup so things make a bit more sense and to keep focus on the towers and horizon. I want to be clear about something, Dennis and I have quite a bit of mutual respect for each other and we view the well known brick and mortar brands as our competitors, not so much each other.

Please, let's get focus back to the towers and horizon. I realize I totally forgot to post ELX Ribbon Horizon measurements. We are seriously working around the clock right now so please forgive me. Once I resize the images so they fit the forum requirements, I will post these. The measurements of the ELX RHorizon are outstanding!

[Beave]

Hi Dave,
I have a quick question for you: Now that you're using the Klippel, what axis do you use as "on-axis?" I think in the past you generally considered on-axis to be midway between the tweeter and mid. Is that still the case with your Klippel measurements, or are you now using the tweeter axis as "on-axis?"

[davef]

Hi Dave,
I have a quick question for you: Now that you're using the Klippel, what axis do you use as "on-axis?" I think in the past you generally considered on-axis to be midway between the tweeter and mid. Is that still the case with your Klippel measurements, or are you now using the tweeter axis as "on-axis?"

In the past, it depended mostly on the design. For NFS measurements and for everything that uses a ribbon tweeter, we use the tweeter axis. Although, I do often experiment with shifting this axis.

Just curious, why do you ask?

[Beave]

No real reason for asking. I was just curious. Thanks for the answer!

[davef]

No real reason for asking. I was just curious. Thanks for the answer!

My pleasure and please feel free to ask me any questions directly regarding Klippel NFS Measurements or procedures.

[davef]

Thanks. The goal is also to get good enough bass to remove my smaller psa xs15se subwoofer

What are your room dimensions? As impressive as the bass response is for our ELX models, they can not reach down as low or reproduce deep bass with as much authority as a good subwoofer.

For music, I don't think a sub is needed - but for movies, I still recommend a sub.

[422415]

My pleasure and please feel free to ask me any questions directly regarding Klippel NFS Measurements or procedures.

Can you post the Klippel measurements of the original RAAL Horizons? I would like to take a look at the differences

[laserllama]

Can you post the Klippel measurements of the original RAAL Horizons? I would like to take a look at the differences

Yeah - I'd also be interested in maybe getting some subjective takes on how much ELX Horizons maybe make a difference on just speech or not - mine is pretty close (8-9 feet?). Kind of like I was saying before I seem to notice on most modern produced content (like, say, Disney+ new Star Wars stuff like Andor or most things on Netflix - HBOMax still seems to have lots of 'general' center channel usage) - nothing is coming out the center except speech (and seemingly not much out of the two woofers?), so does the impact make sense or is the dispersion benefits that much more noticeable if I'm *mostly* in the sweet spot already, etc? Honestly the Ribbon part of those speakers may not be getting used a bunch either, maybe all just mostly hearing that midrange? Could be wrong!

Anyway, that's an upgrade for later when the new Horizon cabinets are in, as I probably need to get them installed, I would tear something up if trying to upgrade them myself I am sure!

[Jonnyozero3]

My pleasure and please feel free to ask me any questions directly regarding Klippel NFS Measurements or procedures.

Hi Dave, any thoughts or impressions on the ELX vs V2 vs originals in regards to time domain measurements? I'm curious but don't see anything like the old cumulative spectral decay measurement jumping out at me in the Klippel data. Is that (and similar) still a useful metric with Klippel in play?

[goldark]

Can you post the Klippel measurements of the original RAAL Horizons? I would like to take a look at the differences

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ascend-acoustics-horizon-center-speaker-review.15199/

[422415]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ascend-acoustics-horizon-center-speaker-review.15199/

Dave made a comment on ASR about how the Klippel measurements from ASR to Ascends own measurements cannot be compared to each other because of the environment they were taken in. Thats why I was asking for Ascends measurements.

[ahender]

Dave made a comment on ASR about how the Klippel measurements from ASR to Ascends own measurements cannot be compared to each other because of the environment they were taken in. Thats why I was asking for Ascends measurements.

The thread you reference is worth reading. King Klippel is no longer at the top of the food chain.

[TimW]

I believe his comment was in regards to distortion measurements. Frequency response measurements should be comparable. The purpose of the Klippel NFS is to eliminate the affect of the room on frequency response measurements. As Dave explained in his ASR post, the distortion measurements are done differently and require the use of other Klippel modules to get really accurate measurements. That is why he does not post the distortion measurements publicly.

[422415]

I believe his comment was in regards to distortion measurements. Frequency response measurements should be comparable. The purpose of the Klippel NFS is to eliminate the affect of the room on frequency response measurements. As Dave explained in his ASR post, the distortion measurements are done differently and require the use of other Klippel modules to get really accurate measurements. That is why he does not post the distortion measurements publicly.

Either way the charts and scales used by Amir are different than Dave in some measurements. I would prefer some consistency when comparing.

[TimW]

Best place I know of for measurement comparison is Pierre Aubert's website (https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/). Among other sources, he collects Klippel NFS data from ASR, Erin's Audio Corner, and Dave who sends him the files directly. Everything should be scaled the same and you can even overlay them using the compare tab. Hopefully these new ELX measurements will be uploaded there soon.

[racrawford65]

thanks for posting that comparison website link, TimW.

[yesplease]

Very cool site!!! As much as some people dislike Amir, what he helped start with ASR makes it so much easier to be a consumer. Now we have Marantz releasing AP measurements for the AV10. Hopefully one day the other manufacturers join in.

[Natural1]

ELX Titan info soon?

[davef]

ELX Titan info soon?

Yes, certainly by this Friday evening.

We made a big mistake releasing this info during the holidays. I never anticipated this type of reception. Phone calls and emails are literally non-stop, I think I am logging 18 hour work days right now, truly crazy!

[davef]

I believe his comment was in regards to distortion measurements. Frequency response measurements should be comparable. The purpose of the Klippel NFS is to eliminate the affect of the room on frequency response measurements. As Dave explained in his ASR post, the distortion measurements are done differently and require the use of other Klippel modules to get really accurate measurements. That is why he does not post the distortion measurements publicly.

This is correct, this was in regards to distortion measurements. I would expect our frequency response measurements to be quite close to other Klippel NFS measurements of the same speaker. There will always be slight differences, the NFS is certainly not a plug-n-play device. Mic positions (tweeter point, starting point), expansion points, # of measurement points all matter, but we are talking a few dB differences at most.

THD measurements are not anechoic, as such the environment and measurement technique used matters a lot. At some point, I do plan on discussing / developing a reliable and repeatable methodology with Amir for using the NFS for measuring THD such that his results would be repeatable by others.

Here is an example.

SVS Ultra Bookshelf THD measured by Erin:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ff6gshw7iqwtg27/SVS%20Ultra%20Bookshelf%20Speaker%20Harmonic%20Dis tortion%20%2896dB%20%40%201m%29.png?dl=0

SVS Ultra Bookshelf THD measured by Amir:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/svs-ultra-bookshelf-2-way-speaker-home-theater-klippel-distortion-level-frequency-sweep-measur-png.76210/

Both are at 96dB but there are some significant differences.

[bcg27]

Will the upgrades be added to the website or is the only way to order via phone?

[ahender]

This is correct, this was in regards to distortion measurements. I would expect our frequency response measurements to be quite close to other Klippel NFS measurements of the same speaker. There will always be slight differences, the NFS is certainly not a plug-n-play device. Mic positions (tweeter point, starting point), expansion points, # of measurement points all matter, but we are talking a few dB differences at most.

THD measurements are not anechoic, as such the environment and measurement technique used matters a lot. At some point, I do plan on discussing / developing a reliable and repeatable methodology with Amir for using the NFS for measuring THD such that his results would be repeatable by others.

Here is an example.

SVS Ultra Bookshelf THD measured by Erin:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ff6gshw7iqwtg27/SVS%20Ultra%20Bookshelf%20Speaker%20Harmonic%20Dis tortion%20%2896dB%20%40%201m%29.png?dl=0

SVS Ultra Bookshelf THD measured by Amir:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/svs-ultra-bookshelf-2-way-speaker-home-theater-klippel-distortion-level-frequency-sweep-measur-png.76210/

Both are at 96dB but there are some significant differences.
Thank you Dave. Not only are you creating off-the-chart value for your customers, someone is finally fact-checking what Amir is doing.

[Shazb0t]

The thread you reference is worth reading. King Klippel is no longer at the top of the food chain.

Thank you Dave. Not only are you creating off-the-chart value for your customers, someone is finally fact-checking what Amir is doing.

We get it, you have an axe to grind. Suggesting potential collaboration to improve repeatability between two users of an NFS for distortion measurements as "fact-checking" of "King Klippel" isn't on the level. Maybe you should consider that people devoting their time and money to provide valuable free content doesn't deserve your condemnation.

[Mag_Neato]

......Maybe you should consider that people devoting their time and money to provide valuable free content doesn't deserve your condemnation.

Just as long as we understand that, although there is plenty of "Free content" available out there, some of it is certainly worthy of condemnation, per se! There is plenty to throw under that bus, but let's leave this thread to discuss the fantastic products offered by Dave & Co. :cool:

[wtrimble]

Has anyone else gotten the upgrade and have installed them? Any further reviews? I put in an order Friday and waiting for it to be shipped so I know there's been a number of people have been getting theirs. I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on them as I anxiously wait!

[Mag_Neato]

Has anyone else gotten the upgrade and have installed them? Any further reviews? I put in an order Friday and waiting for it to be shipped so I know there's been a number of people have been getting theirs. I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on them as I anxiously wait!

I ordered Sierra-2EX V2 crossover upgrade kits Monday. Just got my tracking number yesterday. should have them by Wednesday, hopefully sooner.

[merrymaid520]

I have had a few days now to listen to my recently upgraded ELX Towers and Horizon speakers. I thought maybe its time to post some basic impressions, don't expect anything too technical!

Some history first. I was lucky enough to own the very pair of Ascend Towers. I started out with the Nrt dome tweeter and later revised them to utilize the RAAL. Not long after that upgrade, the RAAL Horizon came along. Throughout their tenure, I have always loved the Towers! They provided enough output, clarity, and enjoyment for many years! I always knew they could be improved upon, especially as technology advances with time.

So move ahead to this past summer and I was vacationing with my family in San Diego and opted to take a journey north to the Ascend HQ's. I finally was able to meet Dave, Dina, Curtis, Mitch, and a few other folks in person. We were able to hear the ELX Towers in the demo room, and also using Dave's A/B switching device, compared them to the previous Towers. The difference was NOT subtle by any means.

So after receiving the ELX upgrade components, I got to work last weekend installing them! Sadly my cabinets on all three speakers had smaller woofer openings which required some woodworking to get the new LX woofers to fit. Luckily the dremel with a small sandpaper bit did the trick. I did have some very minor paint chipping around the cutout, but again, very minor and tough to see from more than a foot or so away. It took me all day to cut out the 6 LX openings, desolder the old crossovers, and re solder the new ones in along with the EX woofers etc. Not the most exciting venture but worth it.

So how do they sound? HUGE is the best word that comes to mind! The size of the soundstage they project and the output they are capable of is astounding! I was easily playing tracks from 12 feet away at 100db with headroom to spare. How they fill the room with sound is leaps and bounds better than the previous towers. The old towers felt like the sound was beaming at you and the ELXs just disperse the music all around you...this is what was most evident while at ascends demo room. The highs are obviously the same. As for the mids, I feel like I've gained additional clarity, resolution, and some more "heft" to vocals and music. As for the bass, well, its also dramatically improved. While I don't often play them full range, I did mess around with them this way for a few tracks and was very impressed. They could easily satisfy most 2 channel aficionados without the need for subs. Me on the other hand, subs are a must for both music and movies of course. I have dual Rythmik 18" subs which I EQ using a mic and REW. Once setup properly, there is no going back. The subs add so much depth and ease the workload from the Towers allowing me to play at crazy volumes without the worry of wrecking something:)

After messing around with REW and taking many different measurements, I settled on a 80hz setting in my yamaha 5200 preamp for movies and a 50hz setting on my parasound p7 preamp for music. Both of which measure the flattest in room. The room measures flat down to 15hz with no loss in output, its pretty crazy! I will attach some pics of my measurements.

So overall, I am extremally pleased with the ELX speakers in my setup. I have owned nearly every single ascend speaker and iteration and these blow me away! Granted, I dont go out of my way to listen to much else, but I have to imagine these would be tough to beat, both subjectively and objectively considering the measurements Dave's pasted form the klippel and everyone's feedback thus far.

Thanks again to Dave and Dina for allowing me to buy these and demo them over the summer(Cayden says hi too). LOL. Next up.....the 340SEv2's in my garage:)25592558

The first pic is running the towers with a 50hz XO through my P7. the 2nd pic is the ELX's run at both 60hz & 80hz through my yamaha. I only posted the measurements to about 500hz. I did take some full range ones but did not post yet.

[merrymaid520]

here is the full sweep of the ELX towers (with subs) in my living room:)

For refence, Im using the miniDSP Umik-1 and REW. Not the Klippel, ha!2560

I do need to run measurements without the subs at some point....the wife and 9 year old sort of limit my opportunities to do so.

[davef]

here is the full sweep of the ELX towers (with subs) in my living room:)

For refence, Im using the miniDSP Umik-1 and REW. Not the Klippel, ha!2560

I do need to run measurements without the subs at some point....the wife and 9 year old sort of limit my opportunities to do so.

Hey Brandon,

Can you run a sweep of the ELX towers run full range, no subs and no EQ? Curious how closely they will match the predicted in-room response.

Thanks so much!

[merrymaid520]

Hey Brandon,

Can you run a sweep of the ELX towers run full range, no subs and no EQ? Curious how closely they will match the predicted in-room response.

Thanks so much!

You and Curtis are requesting the same, ha! I may be able to tomorrow:).

[Mahawkma]

ELX Ribbon Tower pair (all finishes) = $4998 + shipping. Pricing will increase to $5298 in January.

ELX Titan Tower pair (all finishes) = $4398 + shipping.

What will be the price on the Titan towers after the new year?

[davef]

Will the upgrades be added to the website or is the only way to order via phone?

Best to get the order in by phone. We are purposely limiting sales right now by not listing anything on the main website just yet. We are a bit overwhelmed right now (well, not a bit - more like completely overwhelmed)

[racrawford65]

Thanks, Dave. Saves me some money at the moment on 3 upgrades, although still deciding on crossover only or with the new drivers. :)

[diesel79]

Thanks, Dave. Saves me some money at the moment on 3 upgrades, although still deciding on crossover only or with the new drivers. :)

Go with the full pkg! Lol. I’ve only got a a horizon to do though so it’s a little more easy. ;)

[Sam]

I’m also very interested in a pair of new elx towers but need them in white. Wasn’t there a third party that customizes ascend and Rythmik speakers in different finishes?

[Shazb0t]

Best to get the order in by phone. We are purposely limiting sales right now by not listing anything on the main website just yet. We are a bit overwhelmed right now (well, not a bit - more like completely overwhelmed)

Any idea when the pricing/availability of the crossover V2 upgrades will be announced? Thanks!

[racrawford65]

I’m guessing around 250-300/speaker for just crossovers.

[racrawford65]

Go with the full pkg! Lol. I’ve only got a a horizon to do though so it’s a little more easy. ;)

Leaning that way but curious what crossover only brings versus it all. I’m out of the country at the moment, so probably won’t call until back. I’ve seen others wondering the same, so maybe Dave will chime in when (or if) he’s got some spare time

[billy p]

As much as I would love a full swap...I don't think it's in the cards with economics and exchange rate. At a minimum though...id love to exchange the NrT dome for the titan and new crossovers...using existing mid and woofers...I'll reach out once the dust settles....and things normalize at Ascend HQ.

[davef]

What will be the price on the Titan towers after the new year?

We are hoping to keep the pricing the same on the ELX Titan Towers for at least most of 2023.

[davef]

I’m also very interested in a pair of new elx towers but need them in white. Wasn’t there a third party that customizes ascend and Rythmik speakers in different finishes?

Hi Sam,

I am sorry but white is not available.

[merrymaid520]

So here are my ELX Towers with RAAL running full range, no subs. Pretty flat down to 35hz or so.


25612562

Edit- room dimensions are about 16x16 with 20’ ceilings. The entire space opens up into almost our entire first floor kitchen, stairs, dining room, foyers, etc.

[white_darren]

Hi Dave, congrats on some great work here!

Would there be an upgrade path for my custom "low profile" ribbon Horizon? I'm guessing the ELX crossover for the standard Horizon cabinet might not work so well with the low profile cabinet. Would love to upgrade everything but if that were not possible then what are your thoughts on upgrading my towers but not my Horizon? My system serves both music and home theater duties.

[davef]

Hi Dave, any thoughts or impressions on the ELX vs V2 vs originals in regards to time domain measurements? I'm curious but don't see anything like the old cumulative spectral decay measurement jumping out at me in the Klippel data. Is that (and similar) still a useful metric with Klippel in play?

Time domain measurements would be very similar. To be honest, I am not the biggest fan of how Klippel handles CSD measurements. I much prefer our MLSSA system for these types of gated measurements.

That stated, I really do need to play around with this aspect of the Klippel analyzer a bit more than I have. I promise I will once my time frees up a bit more.

[davef]

Hi Dave, congrats on some great work here!

Would there be an upgrade path for my custom "low profile" ribbon Horizon? I'm guessing the ELX crossover for the standard Horizon cabinet might not work so well with the low profile cabinet. Would love to upgrade everything but if that were not possible then what are your thoughts on upgrading my towers but not my Horizon? My system serves both music and home theater duties.

As long as the crossover fits into the cabinet (it should) - it would be beneficial. It was not necessary to customize / optimize the original Horizon crossovers due to the lower profile cabinet.

[davef]

So here are my ELX Towers with RAAL running full range, no subs. Pretty flat down to 35hz or so.


25612562

Edit- room dimensions are about 16x16 with 20’ ceilings. The entire space opens up into almost our entire first floor kitchen, stairs, dining room, foyers, etc.

Nice - this in-room response is matching up well with the estimated in-room response, there is a gradual downward slope from 50Hz to 20kHz, although I am not confident you have the mic at the same height as the middle of the ribbon, which would account for the dip at between 2-3kHz.

20Hz is also about 15dB down from 40Hz, which also matches the estimated in-room response. :cool:

[laserllama]

in-room response

I don't know what other receivers do this, but with the Marantz phone app it shows the before and after curves and it could make the *old* towers basically completely flat (I was using 8 measurement points with the included microphone). Obviously that's not perfect but it almost seems like it can make almost any speaker pretty amazing if the EQ has that many filters/bands to get that done.

The frequency graphs are impressive, but I kind of feel it's all the other properties that become more interesting in that scenario.

Like "detail" is really about how quickly frequency can react, and probably gets missed on graphs like these, but maybe shows up in other Klippel ones (?). Distortion obviously, and definitely those dispersion color plots.

I know the EQ can't really fix something that's way off, but turning that graph completely flat from 30Hz to 20k seems like something it's darn good at.

(Treating the room may not even be required to get those graphs, but it's nice to get rid of echos that make some things less clear or whatever)

TLDR is - in the era of room correction, what features of a speaker are more or less important? I mean they call it room correction, but it's also kinda speaker correction at the same time :)

Just something I was curious about....

Looking forward to these beasts!

[curtis]

I don't know what other receivers do this, but with the Marantz phone app it shows the before and after curves and it could make the *old* towers basically completely flat (I was using 8 measurement points with the included microphone). Obviously that's not perfect but it almost seems like it can make almost any speaker pretty amazing if the EQ has that many filters/bands to get that done.

The frequency graphs are impressive, but I kind of feel it's all the other properties that become more interesting in that scenario.

Like "detail" is really about how quickly frequency can react, and probably gets missed on graphs like these, but maybe shows up in other Klippel ones (?). Distortion obviously, and definitely those dispersion color plots.

I know the EQ can't really fix something that's way off, but turning that graph completely flat from 30Hz to 20k seems like something it's darn good at.

(Treating the room may not even be required to get those graphs, but it's nice to get rid of echos that make some things less clear or whatever)

TLDR is - in the era of room correction, what features of a speaker are more or less important? I mean they call it room correction, but it's also kinda speaker correction at the same time :)

Just something I was curious about....

Looking forward to these beasts!
Frequency response is only part of the equation. I have heard speakers with similar FR sound very different. As you have mentioned, all those other measurements/properties are important to the secret sauce.

As has been mentioned before, many just EQ below 300-500hz, where the room has the most influence.

Personally, I have found that doing EQ above that makes the sound seem very artificial. I simply don't like it.

People buy speakers for how they sound, many don't have textbook in-room or flat response to begin with. That doesn't mean the speaker is broken. Real "room-eq" would eliminate the effects of the room not just make it flat...so it would have to know what anechoic FR is of the speaker to begin with.

[merrymaid520]

Nice - this in-room response is matching up well with the estimated in-room response, there is a gradual downward slope from 50Hz to 20kHz, although I am not confident you have the mic at the same height as the middle of the ribbon, which would account for the dip at between 2-3kHz.

20Hz is also about 15dB down from 40Hz, which also matches the estimated in-room response. :cool:

Im glad to hear my room mimics the Klippel estimated responses. The mic was at ear level (almost directly in between both Towers) at my MLP which Im guessing is several inches above the RAAL hence the dip.

[laserllama]

People buy speakers for how they sound, many don't have textbook in-room or flat response to begin with. That doesn't mean the speaker is broken

Yeah I know, that's not really what I was asking I guess if it seemed I didn't know that :) Let me try to elaborate maybe.

There's lots of stuff with exaggerated bass for instance or people who don't like a lot of treble or what have you. Maybe think of car stereos and the way people always turn the bass up or whatever.

Yet here, in like this forum or whatever, many people seem to want things to be flat as possible. In that world, software flat technology is pretty darn amazing IMHO. In that way, if you're going for flat, it seems like software provides a nice boost while not affecting the other things. My point being the dispersion is one of those things, maybe "detail" is one of those things, but what is the graph for "detail" not smearing things around? Or is that just lack of distortion at certain frequencies, etc? It would seem that - ignoring other characteristics, we can fix all the frequency humps in any two speakers that aren't completely horrible at least within the range where they are mostly +10/-10 off center. Obviously can't make bass it can't reproduce and stuff like that with just an EQ boost, and boosting too much probably sounds terrible :)

Other stuff that sounds good, I don't know. From a music perspective, mild distortion or saturation is often a good thing, and saturation can help you hear simple waveforms better, so that's an example where some people may like distortion -- distortion in certain frequencies also increases apparent volume, just . That's also why people like tube amps. Personally, I think I'd really want things to be clean by default and maybe give me an option to dial it in. Like "warm sounding" is saturation or an EQ hump. "Vintage" is often treble rolloff. You can get a lot of "tape sound" with just the right EQ curves.

A good analogy from talking to some music recording people is "not good or better, just different". Random speakers (or having things flat or not flat) are going to make some songs sound better than others just because of some random frequency hump. But it seems that would be rather unpredictable song to song -- it might help your favorite song or hurt it, but it might also make some other song your favorite.

Anyway, I'm not a graphs guy, but I'm kind of into EQ and comps from music hobby bits.
I would really like a receiver that exposed compressor controls and let me run through a UAD Shadow Hills or Vari-mu or Fairchild emulation or something :) Not really, but would be fun to try.

The short version is like "between the Tower version 1 and Tower version 2" the frequency humps may not matter ... if you can trust Audyssey/etc.

To me, anyway, I don't find it's messing things up and I would think in most cases if the speaker designers could not have those dips, I'm *guessing* many of them wouldn't have them? Check QED, or not.



Real "room-eq" would eliminate the effects of the room not just make it flat...so it would have to know what anechoic FR is of the speaker to begin with.


if it wanted to preserve the original speaker curve instead of making it match some other arbitrary curve maybe?, but I suspect you meant that. But not if you like flat or whatever reference curve it's trying to end up at.

I guess i"m saying the frequency graph is maybe (to me) anyway, not a big driver of awesome because I think the room correction stuff is darn good and those waves in the graph are not really intentional, they are just like ... inaudible? The good stuff in a speaker then would have to come from other things (and also not distortion, probably).

If frequency is easily eliminated, detail seems to be a time domain thing, sort of like if you think about how an audio compressor works, how fast can it react at different frequencies and how fast it can change, etc. So like what graphs are that? Personal curiosity, already got the order in and 100% taking Dave's word for the awesomeness since the old Towers *already* knocked it out of the park ... just a discourse into "hey if think room correction is fine, does the frequency graph really matter?" :)

[Chris S.]

I don't know what other receivers do this, but with the Marantz phone app it shows the before and after curves and it could make the *old* towers basically completely flat (I was using 8 measurement points with the included microphone). Obviously that's not perfect but it almost seems like it can make almost any speaker pretty amazing if the EQ has that many filters/bands to get that done.

The frequency graphs are impressive, but I kind of feel it's all the other properties that become more interesting in that scenario.

Like "detail" is really about how quickly frequency can react, and probably gets missed on graphs like these, but maybe shows up in other Klippel ones (?). Distortion obviously, and definitely those dispersion color plots.

I know the EQ can't really fix something that's way off, but turning that graph completely flat from 30Hz to 20k seems like something it's darn good at.

(Treating the room may not even be required to get those graphs, but it's nice to get rid of echos that make some things less clear or whatever)

TLDR is - in the era of room correction, what features of a speaker are more or less important? I mean they call it room correction, but it's also kinda speaker correction at the same time :)

Just something I was curious about....

Looking forward to these beasts!

Quick and important correction, the “after” curve generated in the Audyssey app (which I assume is what you’re talking about) is purely theoretical, as Audyssey does not take measurements after applying room EQ. The “after” curve is just a predicted in room response with the EQ adjustments, which is almost definitely not the actual speaker response if it was to be measured after applying EQ.

[laserllama]

agree with that logic, definitely it's not remeasuring and I can see how it might make things marginally worse in some unmeasured locations off to the side but I have a fair amount of faith it's not going to be that wrong when all the locations are 2 feet away from one another if you are near those spots in this one particular room anyway.

I've definitely seen it clean up a Dali Oberon 7 to make it sound like it was twice as good, was it anywhere near as good as the old Ascend Towers - heck no of course :) So yeah still feel it can "fix" a speaker and improve ones that are already pretty darn good. My post was mostly about "hey I bet this graph isn't as interesting as the other graphs" if you have that stuff on (aside from more bass range, of course!)

[diesel79]

@davef

With the ELX Ribbon Horizon, is the overall detail/clarity significantly improved over the original? One thing I’ve always enjoyed with the Horizon is late night watching at lower volumes when the littles are sleeping. Wondering if the dialogue clarity and detail is even better…..I always thought the original was amazing with this and is the best I’ve ever heard.

That being said, I’m even more pumped to hear the improved bass and dynamics at house shaking volume as well. After all, I guess it’s safe to say this is the driving force behind me upgrading to the ELX. LOL. A full Ascend ribbon front stage with dual Rhythmik FV18’s is definitely fun!

Can’t wait to get mine upgraded after the holidays!

[James]

agree with that logic, definitely it's not remeasuring and I can see how it might make things marginally worse in some unmeasured locations off to the side but I have a fair amount of faith it's not going to be that wrong when all the locations are 2 feet away from one another if you are near those spots in this one particular room anyway.

I've definitely seen it clean up a Dali Oberon 7 to make it sound like it was twice as good, was it anywhere near as good as the old Ascend Towers - heck no of course :) So yeah still feel it can "fix" a speaker and improve ones that are already pretty darn good. My post was mostly about "hey I bet this graph isn't as interesting as the other graphs" if you have that stuff on (aside from more bass range, of course!)
It's an interesting question - I'd say that some of the differences between speakers with different design choices may be due to frequency response differences (and so would be minimized with corrective eq), but others aren't.

I'd love to be able to easily swap out a few speakers in our system, all corrected to our house curve, and listen to them for any differences. Particularly ones that were on my short list before buying the Towers, and that are different in ways that might matter after eq.

[racrawford65]

Good thing about Anthem ARC as you can review response with and without correction applied. Or one could verify using REW + UMIK mic

[laserllama]

With the ELX Ribbon Horizon, is the overall detail/clarity significantly improved over the original?

+1 to this dialog question on ELX vs normal Ribbon Horizons as I've tried to ask this a few times :)

There are a LOT of programs on streaming services (Disney+ Andor, for example, lots of Netflix, etc) where the center just gets 99.999% dialog and in those cases I'm curious of what the ELX is going to do there. Subjective opinions from Dave or other people that have heard both?

I also thought it was already unbeatable, so if it's like beaten and noticeable, that would be pretty awesome.

[James]

agree with that logic, definitely it's not remeasuring and I can see how it might make things marginally worse in some unmeasured locations off to the side but I have a fair amount of faith it's not going to be that wrong when all the locations are 2 feet away from one another if you are near those spots in this one particular room anyway.

I've definitely seen it clean up a Dali Oberon 7 to make it sound like it was twice as good, was it anywhere near as good as the old Ascend Towers - heck no of course :) So yeah still feel it can "fix" a speaker and improve ones that are already pretty darn good. My post was mostly about "hey I bet this graph isn't as interesting as the other graphs" if you have that stuff on (aside from more bass range, of course!)
A few things that I think might make an audible difference apart from frequency response would be choices about bass reproduction (sealed, ported or transmission line designs), cabinet and driver materials, crossover designs (simple/complex, lower order or higher order), tweeters (hard or soft dome, ribbon, amt), sensitivity, and overall complexity of the design (2, 3, 4 way).

And, even though I'm very amazed and pleased with the results of REW and eq in our system, I like to keep that to a minimum, so I'd always look for a speaker with a neutral anechoic frequency response and good off-axis performance.

[laserllama]

A few things that I think might make an audible difference apart from frequency response would be choices about bass reproduction (sealed, ported or transmission line designs), cabinet and driver materials, crossover designs (simple/complex, lower order or higher order), tweeters (hard or soft dome, ribbon, amt), sensitivity, and overall complexity of the design (2, 3, 4 way).


Hmm - I think this missed the question a little by trying to explain basics, but that's ok - Those are clearly obvious speaker characteristic *inputs* to the process, but what I'm interested in is if speaker quality is better represented by other graphs (in addition to dispersion and distortion, which we know about).

Like in the case of the RAAL, what probably makes it good is how fast and responsive it is.

If you can make things flat in software vs hardware I don't care, but I do know that the audible differences between saturation, EQ, and just volume are very similar and many people may not really like "flat" because that is missing. So when they say they don't like room EQ, it's too flat, so maybe they don't want too flat of a speaker either. They like some distortion, which is why they also may like tubes or vinyl.

To phrase it another way, if you were doing a presentation on why RAAL was awesome when you were already sitting in the perfect spot, would you lead with the frequency response? I think probably no, because they are still awesome when flatter/corrected and you can correct basically everything. It's definitely not the frequency range / air etc / as most of us are losing some of the upper range anyway, if just a little.

What's the *output* graph that shows that magic that shows attack and responsiveness and what keeps a speaker from sounding like mud? I suspect that's what we should maybe be using to compare things, if it exists.

Perhaps an argument against looking at the graphs much if it doesn't :)

Anyway, I'm still interested in the answer to the ELX Horizon dialog question and whether it's going to make a big difference -- which I think also comes down to a lot more than frequency response :) If the answer to why it is better is because the dispersion profile is better, if it's straight in front of the seats already, would you notice? Probably no, so curious what might make it better for dialog purposes or not and what that graph is (if it exists).

If the answer is "it's the crossover", I'm kind of curious about why that might be. If it's that the new crossover has quicker dynamics for instance, that would be interesting. (Dynamics referring to how quickly volume changes over time, etc) - but if so, that might indicate I only really would want to swap the crossover because the other drivers would kind of be wasted on the task unless there were a lot of people sitting fairly off-axis or the room was larger?

If there's a subjective "hey these new midrange and woofer units are way better for speech dynamics" and you can really really hear it that would be a thing. I don't need a graph. If it's more like "hey these are much better for deep bass and the dispersion profile is way better" -- for my personal case as a center, maybe I don't need it.

But really kind of needs a subjective explanation on dialog improvements and what it's like listening to it as Center RAAL version 1 vs version 2 RAAL vs ELX, maybe we can get that as part of Reserved7 or whichever :) All good!

[James]

Well, I think that flatter without correction is still a bit preferable, so anechoic frequency response of a RAAL tweeter might matter in that respect.

Dave has posted a number of measurements of the RAAL tweeter, with explanations of why/how they matter - here's a page with a link to that discussion:

Sierra Tower Specifications, Measurements, Pricing - Page 2 (ascendacoustics.com) (https://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?4815-Sierra-Tower-Specifications-Measurements-Pricing/page2). It's post #16, and there's a pdf you can download.

So there are measurements aside from FR that you can find that would be helpful.

[davef]

@davef

With the ELX Ribbon Horizon, is the overall detail/clarity significantly improved over the original? One thing I’ve always enjoyed with the Horizon is late night watching at lower volumes when the littles are sleeping. Wondering if the dialogue clarity and detail is even better…..I always thought the original was amazing with this and is the best I’ve ever heard.

That being said, I’m even more pumped to hear the improved bass and dynamics at house shaking volume as well. After all, I guess it’s safe to say this is the driving force behind me upgrading to the ELX. LOL. A full Ascend ribbon front stage with dual Rhythmik FV18’s is definitely fun!

Can’t wait to get mine upgraded after the holidays!

The directivity of the ELX Ribbon Horizon is much improved over the original. Prior to our NFS purchase, it was simply not possible to optimize this aspect of speaker design to anywhere near the level we can now. I would say every performance aspect of the ELX Ribbon Horizon is significantly improved over the original. Dialogue clarity is improved, both on and off-axis, with a fuller more enveloping presentation.

We do lose a small bit of efficiency (~2-3dB on paper) but, the impedance load is easier than the original so your amp/receiver uses less current, which means more available headroom so in that regard, the loss of some efficiency is a wash.

We have an ELX ribbon tower demo later this week, and I sat down with the demo pair in our sound room to have a quick listen. That "quick" listen turned into well over an hour of listening and I missed the gym. Listening to the ELX is just so enjoyable, these speakers are perfectly balanced and transients and overall dynamics are incredibly realistic.

[diesel79]

The directivity of the ELX Ribbon Horizon is much improved over the original. Prior to our NFS purchase, it was simply not possible to optimize this aspect of speaker design to anywhere near the level we can now. I would say every performance aspect of the ELX Ribbon Horizon is significantly improved over the original. Dialogue clarity is improved, both on and off-axis, with a fuller more enveloping presentation.

We do lose a small bit of efficiency (~2-3dB on paper) but, the impedance load is easier than the original so your amp/receiver uses less current, which means more available headroom so in that regard, the loss of some efficiency is a wash.

We have an ELX ribbon tower demo later this week, and I sat down with the demo pair in our sound room to have a quick listen. That "quick" listen turned into well over an hour of listening and I missed the gym. Listening to the ELX is just so enjoyable, these speakers are perfectly balanced and transients and overall dynamics are incredibly realistic.




Thanks for the details. Can’t wait to get mine upgraded. Now to figure out how to fund a set of towers? ;)

[laserllama]

yep thanks for the dialog details and such!

[Natural1]

Dave you mentioned this regarding the Titan version...

"These slight differences disappear for movies / home theater and the wider vertical dispersion of the Titan dome will likely be beneficial for some listeners. Add to that the cost savings and we have a more affordable version of the ELX line, that for listeners who are more focused on movies, gaming, home theater, heavy metal music – I do recommend going with the ELX Titans due to the cost savings."

I am wondering... if you take the vertical dispersion and cost savings out of the equation, would you still recommend the Titans over the RAAL for HT & classic guitar-based rock music?

And what about at rather high volumes - approaching reference levels for HT and the same level for Music. Can the big RAALs handle it?

[High Fidelity]

I was planning to build a 3.1/3.2 system consisting of the Sierra 2EX V2 or LX, matching Sierra center or Horizon (older model), one or two Rythmik L12s, and Denon X3700H.

I have the LR mains and Denon X3700H. No center or subwoofer.

If I went with the ELX, Dave informed me that in my small 10.5’x10.5’x8’ room I wouldn’t need a subwoofer. I’d go without a center for some time, which I’m OK with. I was going to go without one for a while anyway regardless of which LR mains.

So, in a small room, would you consider the RAAL ELX Towers or go with the Sierra 2EX V2/LX with one or two subwoofers? Music + HT. Speakers 6 ft 8 inches apart, 6 ft from MLP (is 6ft enough distance from the ELX?), 2 ft from side walls, 24-31” from front wall, MLP 2 ft from rear wall. All measured from front baffle. Listening levels 85-90dB peaks.

[davef]

I am wondering... if you take the vertical dispersion and cost savings out of the equation, would you still recommend the Titans over the RAAL for HT & classic guitar-based rock music?

And what about at rather high volumes - approaching reference levels for HT and the same level for Music. Can the big RAALs handle it?

I don't feel that the Titan dome offers any advantages over the 70-20xram RAAL. For someone whose listening position is fairly close and they like to listen while standing or sitting on the floor, the wider vertical dispersion of the Titan would be advantageous. So, more specifically - taking away the wider vertical dispersion and ignoring the price difference, I would then recommend the ribbon version.

Yes, the big RAAL can handle tons of power - zero concern there.

[High Fidelity]

I don't feel that the Titan dome offers any advantages over the 70-20xram RAAL. For someone whose listening position is fairly close and they like to listen while standing or sitting on the floor, the wider vertical dispersion of the Titan would be advantageous. So, more specifically - taking away the wider vertical dispersion and ignoring the price difference, I would then recommend the ribbon version.

Yes, the big RAAL can handle tons of power - zero concern there.


Is 6 ft away too close for the 70-20xram RAAL?

[Natural1]

I don't feel that the Titan dome offers any advantages over the 70-20xram RAAL. For someone whose listening position is fairly close and they like to listen while standing or sitting on the floor, the wider vertical dispersion of the Titan would be advantageous. So, more specifically - taking away the wider vertical dispersion and ignoring the price difference, I would then recommend the ribbon version.

Yes, the big RAAL can handle tons of power - zero concern there.

Thank you Dave, really appreciate the info! Now I'm definitely leaning towards the RAAL. :D

[Shazb0t]

Any idea when the pricing/availability of the crossover V2 upgrades will be announced? Thanks!

Still wondering about this. Hoping to work it into the Christmas budget! Any update Dave?

[NegativeEntropy]

Is 6 ft away too close for the 70-20xram RAAL?

If you are 6 feet (72 inches) away from the towers, and you are standing and therefore your ears are about 33" above the ribbons you will be (arctan(33/72)=24.6 degrees) about 25 degrees above the tweeters.

Now compare the vertical dispersion plots:

Ribbon:
2596
Titan:
2597

You can see the Ribbon will be outside of its sweet spot above about 12kHz in this scenario.

If you are over about 50 years old you will likely not hear a difference as you hearing above 12 kHz is likely compromised.

The lower your age compared to that, you could hear slight differences, but again, only in these upper harmonics and only when your ears are that far "off axis".

Do the trig math for whatever your specific listening height is vs the tweeter height.

[High Fidelity]

If you are 6 feet (72 inches) away from the towers, and you are standing and therefore your ears are about 33" above the ribbons you will be (arctan(33/72)=24.6 degrees) about 25 degrees above the tweeters.

Now compare the vertical dispersion plots:

Ribbon:
2596
Titan:
2597

You can see the Ribbon will be outside of its sweet spot above about 12kHz in this scenario.

If you are over about 50 years old you will likely not hear a difference as you hearing above 12 kHz is likely compromised.

The lower your age compared to that, you could hear slight differences, but again, only in these upper harmonics and only when your ears are that far "off axis".

Do the trig math for whatever your specific listening height is vs the tweeter height.

My seating places ear level at 36-39 inches. At 6 feet distance, according to calculations, I would have a +/-12.7 inch vertical listening window. So, tweeter height at 35 inches, anywhere between 22.3-47.7 inches would be fine at 6 feet.

I also wondered how well the the ELX would sum at 6 feet.

[laserllama]

I won’t be standing so I think being seated with ear level at 36-39 inches would be fine at 6 feet distance.

I also wondered how well the the ELX would sum at 6 feet.

all the old pre-ELX stuff was great, so I'm guessing fine. Also don't worry about those angles so much, things sounds great out of the way of whatever the theoretical tweeter cone is too.

[laserllama]

I was planning to build a 3.1/3.2 system consisting of the Sierra 2EX V2 or LX, matching Sierra center or Horizon (older model), one or two Rythmik L12s, and Denon X3700H.

I have the LR mains and Denon X3700H. No center or subwoofer.

If I went with the ELX, Dave informed me that in my small 10.5’x10.5’x8’ room I wouldn’t need a subwoofer. I’d go without a center for some time, which I’m OK with. I was going to go without one for a while anyway regardless of which LR mains.

So, in a small room, would you consider the RAAL ELX Towers or go with the Sierra 2EX V2/LX with one or two subwoofers? Music + HT. Speakers 6 ft 8 inches apart, 6 ft from MLP (is 6ft enough distance from the ELX?), 2 ft from side walls, 24-31” from front wall, MLP 2 ft from rear wall. All measured from front baffle. Listening levels 85-90dB peaks.

some of the rhythmik stuff goes down to like 14 Hz and their active servo magic is pretty awesome

That all being said, I have mine down on the floor in front of my seats (and the seats are also raised like another 6 inches for weird room reasons) and the bass on the floor is a lot better than from listening position still. I'm excited about having some more bass more pointed at things, but I should probably also just turn my subwoofer levels up.

Looking forward to trying the new towers at a lower crossover setting though for sure (60Hz I guess? No idea how tight of slope the receiver is using, don't really care but don't want to neuter those really nice subs either)

[High Fidelity]

Yes, seems the case.

I found an older thread here that showed the calculation for vertical listing window of the 70-20XRAM RAAL. I edited my post with the calculation.

https://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?6003-nrt-raal-sierra-tower-preference

Post #7

[davef]

Still wondering about this. Hoping to work it into the Christmas budget! Any update Dave?

Yep - just did the landed costs calculations and crossover optimization parts and labor. Tower V2 ribbon crossovers will retail for $298 each + shipping.

[billy p]

Yep - just did the landed costs calculations and crossover optimization parts and labor. Tower V2 ribbon crossovers will retail for $298 each + shipping.

I'd have to assume those of us with the NrT towers are in a conundrum...obviously doing a V2 swap is not feasible...though I'd be opened minded to moving up to the titan version if a V2 option is or becomes viable.

[davef]

I'd have to assume those of us with the NrT towers are in a conundrum...obviously doing a V2 swap is not feasible...though I'd be opened minded to moving up to the titan version if a V2 option is or becomes viable.

Yes, you will be able to upgrade to the V2 crossover + Titan tweeter, which is what we will be calling our Titan Tower.

[billy p]

Wonderful...news.

Thanks...
:o

[racrawford65]

Yep - just did the landed costs calculations and crossover optimization parts and labor. Tower V2 ribbon crossovers will retail for $298 each + shipping.

Thanks, Dave. I was pretty close on my guess (300)��

I’m still not decided on whether just a cross-over upgrade or the full upgrade. What would I be giving up by not going with the drivers as well? I don’t generally listen at reference levels and do have dual Rythmik E15 so covered for bass. Either way it looks like the same amount of work to do either upgrade. If it’s better to call you or Dina to discuss , let me know and will give you a call when I’m back in the US

[davef]

I’m still not decided on whether just a cross-over upgrade or the full upgrade. What would I be giving up by not going with the drivers as well? I don’t generally listen at reference levels and do have dual Rythmik E15 so covered for bass. Either way it looks like the same amount of work to do either upgrade. If it’s better to call you or Dina to discuss , let me know and will give you a call when I’m back in the US

Please send me an email directly. Happy to assist you with this :)

[racrawford65]

Will do, Dave

[davef]

I also wondered how well the the ELX would sum at 6 feet.

Perfect summing of all of the drivers in our towers occurs at anything greater than a 2 foot listening distance. 6 feet and even 3 feet is fine.

[Shazb0t]

Yep - just did the landed costs calculations and crossover optimization parts and labor. Tower V2 ribbon crossovers will retail for $298 each + shipping.
Thanks Dave! Are you able to share spins of the Tower V2 for comparison again the ELX? Decisions, decisions!

[frolly]

As I also posted over on avsforum:
Had a chance to demo the ELX towers yesterday (Friday) and A/B them with my standard RAAL towers and it was a noticeable improvement. The old towers still sound good but the new towers are a class (or two) above. Wider and deeper soundstage, thicker more full bodied vocals, hard hitting and copious bass. I've been more than happy with my towers for the past 10 years but it's finally time for an upgrade.
Whether that improvement will be worth the upgrade cost is up to each individual, but now that I've heard the ELX towers I can't unhear them. If you're on the fence, I would recommend arranging a demo with Dave and Dina if you're in the area and judge for yourself.

[davef]

As I also posted over on avsforum:
Had a chance to demo the ELX towers yesterday (Friday) and A/B them with my standard RAAL towers and it was a noticeable improvement. The old towers still sound good but the new towers are a class (or two) above. Wider and deeper soundstage, thicker more full bodied vocals, hard hitting and copious bass. I've been more than happy with my towers for the past 10 years but it's finally time for an upgrade.
Whether that improvement will be worth the upgrade cost is up to each individual, but now that I've heard the ELX towers I can't unhear them. If you're on the fence, I would recommend arranging a demo with Dave and Dina if you're in the area and judge for yourself.

Thank you again! I am pleased you got the chance to compare old with new, we will do our best to get your speakers upgraded and back to you as quickly as we are capable of. As you saw at our facility, things are a bit hectic amidst the holiday rush.

[High Fidelity]

Are the ELX Ribbon Towers warmer or brighter than the 2EX V2? Warmer or brighter than the LX?

[davef]

Are the ELX Ribbon Towers warmer or brighter than the 2EX V2? Warmer or brighter than the LX?

In the case of warmth, I'd rank them this way:

LX > ELX Ribbon Towers = Sierra-2EX V2

For detail:

ELX Ribbon Towers > Sierra-2EX V2 > LX (Sierra-2EX V2 and LX are very close, with a slight edge to Sierra-2EX V2)

[Leo95se]

well i disappear for 8 years and all sorts of changes to see! :) i am a happy customer of your OG towers, horizon center, and 170 surrounds, with a lovely sealed sub. i see there is the upgrade to the sierra v2 as an option.
Is there a big diff from v1 to v2? (i might even be pre-v1? lol). my set has the non-ribbon (pre-dome?, with the gold bullet) tweeters?

does the ELX fall into the spectrum here? i cant find a page or specs on it, so am not sure if they are of the same genre.

really interesting stuff! :)

[davef]

V2 towers are now live on our site.

[Blingleberry]

I'm certainly following how the S2EX V2 compared to the best model of Tower (v2? elx?). I don't have room to use the S2's for any other purpose so it would be one or the other.

Frankly I don't have a complaint about the S2's at all, so I'm not sure why I'd even upgrade them :-). But there's always the More factor if people declare the difference startlingly better.

I do wish I could upgrade to a horizon center instead of the Duo V2. But my cabinet space is too narrow at around 20" and my wife loves that cabinet.

[Spamilton]

Perfect timing for my upgradeitis. I've had the Sierra towers for a few years and was about to pull the trigger on the F226be. The ELX is surely the better value and has lower extension. I'm more concerned with mids and treble. Just wish I could A/B them. I'm using the M126be as a center, and I'm very happy with it. I compared it with a few other top centers and the Revel won easily. Would love to try the new Horizon as well, but I would need a new console to make it fit.

[billy p]

Perfect timing for my upgradeitis. I've had the Sierra towers for a few years and was about to pull the trigger on the F226be. The ELX is surely the better value and has lower extension. I'm more concerned with mids and treble. Just wish I could A/B them. I'm using the M126be as a center, and I'm very happy with it. I compared it with a few other top centers and the Revel won easily. Would love to try the new Horizon as well, but I would need a new console to make it fit.




This post could help.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ascend-acoustics-announces-new-klippel-nfs-optimized-sierra-towers-and-horizon-center.39567/page-4#post-1402918

[Spamilton]

Awesome. Thank you, billy.

[database]

I found that user's other shootout posts interesting as well. He compared the old ribbon towers to the f226be (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/upgrade-comparisons-ascend-sierra-raal-towers-revel-f226be-f228be.28762/page-2#post-1021112) and then the f226be to the ELX ribbon towers (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ascend-acoustics-announces-new-klippel-nfs-optimized-sierra-towers-and-horizon-center.39567/page-5#post-1405136).

I know the story behind the ELX is more involved and Ascend was always planning to release a new flagship, but just reading those two shootouts back to back it makes it look like Dave was mad the ribbon towers "lost" to another speaker, developed a monster in the ELX to beat it, and we're all winning as a result. :) Can't wait to install my ELX tower and horizon upgrade kits when they arrive.

[Spamilton]

I know the story behind the ELX is more involved and Ascend was always planning to release a new flagship, but just reading those two shootouts back to back it makes it look like Dave was mad the ribbon towers "lost" to another speaker, developed a monster in the ELX to beat it, and we're all winning as a result. :) Can't wait to install my ELX tower and horizon upgrade kits when they arrive.

Indeed. He knows Revel is the main competitor in the high-end neutral space. I read the entire thread. It is definitely making my choice difficult. I do enjoy building projects, but I also don't want to wreck my audio by accident, haha.

[Jonnyozero3]

I travelled to Ascend Acoustics in San Clemente, CA for a demo of the new ELX Ribbon towers, including a non-blind AB-AB session compared to the original RAAL towers (V1). It was an eye opening (ear opening?) experience.

Here are my thoughts…written long form for those who need a holiday read….

ASCEND SETUP: Space was Dave’s demo room listening to FLAC music streamed through an OPPO BDP player, using Rotel/ATI equipment, an expensive looking switcher. Listening distance and positioning was similar to my home setup. I listened to the ELX towers full range without a sub for a little over two hours. Dave later hooked up the original towers for the AB session. Max volume for the listening session was measured around 90-95 dB per a phone app.

SETUP AT HOME: My basis of comparison is 4.1 with original Sierra RAAL Ribbon Towers, Sierra-1 surrounds, and a Rythmik F25 (dual 15” drivers eq’d with Anti-Mode). I also have listening experience with Dunlavy, Paradigm, PSB, and a few others over the years. I have been out of the game for awhile, happy with my RAAL towers and haven’t yet heard any of the newer products from Revel, Kef, etc. I run LFE about 3 or so dB high and keep the sub on for music.

NOTE: These are subjective notes; I don’t know precisely what objective measurements will correlate to all the differences I perceived. That said, I thought the differences between V1 and ELX were significant enough to be both clearly audible and I think quite able to be differentiated in blind listening. The original towers still proved venerable and impressive in their own right (allow me to explain later), but were simply outclassed significantly by the ELX.

IMPRESSIONS: Put simply, upon hitting play the ELX towers put an immediate smile on my face and I said, “oh wow” out loud. Emotionally, the words that came to mind were, “stunning”, “visceral”, “unbelievably real”, and “holographic”. The LX woofers are fantastic and I think the new crossover design is some special sauce. Breaking down what I heard:

(1) LOWER OCTAVES - Precise and visceral mid/upper-bass impact with surprising low bass extension: Huge improvement to male vocals, lower tone strings, large bodied instruments, percussion, and chest-thumping-and-punching enjoyment.

The ELX maintain high volume and low distortion to lower frequencies compared to the V1 towers. This was the first and immediately obvious difference. In addition to absolute percussive output, the bass and upper/mid-bass was especially precise and tight. With the caveat that I am used to my F25 in a different room, my impression of the ELX bass was that it gave me most of the extension one would ever need for music, clearly outmatching the original towers by adding an octave and a half or so of bass, and out performing above that. I was impressed by the ELX’s sharp, immediate and accurate percussive impact with very little overhang. I suspect in my own room I may prefer the ELX’s bass above ~30 Hz compared to my venerable F25, and won’t need the F25 for music. I like bass, so that says a lot. In hindsight, my efforts to run the F25’s a little hot and use them for music were because I was seeking the kind of accurate punch and thump output the ELX provides. As an example, tracks from the artist Fink are especially impressive as the ELX’s reproduce a fist or slap hitting the side of the body of the guitar. The sound is slamming and so real in the best way. Male vocals are equally improved with the deeper register.

(2) COHERENCE - An enveloping, nearly holographic soundstage with comparably pin-point placement of sound: all around improvement to presentation…I think this change is the “magic” and secret sauce and most important difference. I assume much of this is due to the new crossover design? This difference in soundstage and imaging is nearly as obvious as the difference in bass, but somewhat harder to explain in words. I am not sure what measurements will fully explain what is happening here and creating this enveloping coherence.

A silly metaphorical way to convey the difference: imagine you are at the eye doctor, and the doctor is flipping those little lenses in front of your eyes and asking you which one provides more focus to read the lines on the eye chart…*click*….*click*. Upon starting a song, the original V1 towers provide a soundstage I know well: I perceive superb placement of instruments left to right, and an enjoyable soundstage in front of me that gets my head nodding in enjoyment. There is height and width of sound beyond the limits of the speakers creating spaciousness in front of me. I can point to placement of instruments in front of me. Overall, it’s excellent and recognizably familiar. 20/20, good vision!

*click*

A switch to the ELX and the sound field in front of me snaps suddenly into razor sharp focus, and yet grows wider and enveloping. Rather than coming “at” me, the sound of the recorded space is all around filling the room, yet the instruments have coalesced to markedly more precise positions in front of me. It’s like switching from 2D to 3D, or from HD to 4K UHD. Maybe that is an exaggeration, but hopefully makes the point the difference to me was breathtaking and frankly surprising. Wow, 20/10 vision, I can read more lines!

My thought: “The original towers are great, how could this possibly sound this different?” Imaging becomes more precise: placement of sounds like guitar string plucks and drum hits are hyper sharp and almost unnerving coherent across octaves. I recognize the familiar RAAL smoothness, detail, and transparency yet there is smidge more presence and energy to what the RAALs are doing. , As previously stated the LX woofers hammer you with authority without being overbearing or unbalanced. The EX midrange? I think this is where the new EX midrange driver shines…it basically blends and disappears and you don’t know it’s there, while it pumps out lots of decibels of nuanced and distinct warmth and low treble balanced to and with the impressive LX output and RAAL ribbon top end. Highest compliment I can give the ELX is this coherence across octaves and how it all meshes to create pin-point sounds amid an enveloping presentation.

The drum track: “Drum Improvisation 1” by Ron Tutt & Jim Keltner, on The Sheffield Lab: Drum & Track Disc is a fantastic example, demonstrating a clearly audible arc of the placement in width and height of the drum set as they are hit/played left right and up down. Combined with the mid-bass impact and detail, one perceives more distinct placement and size of the drum in-front of you, and not just the sound from the point where the drumstick strikes. This effect makes for a stunning stereo presentation. In addition, while maintaining this coherent imaging, the soundstage expands in height and width and nearly sounds enveloping all around.

*click*

Switch back to the V1 towers, and in comparison to the ELX, the soundstage collapses forward, becomes smaller, and unfocuses. It’s still good, but the difference is jarring. Again, the V1 towers, while quite good, are more “flat” in presentation and can’t match the precise localization and wide enveloping presence of the ELX. Back to my silly metaphor: suddenly you can’t read the last three lines on the doctor’s eye chart. 20/20 now is good (V1), but the last lens was 20/10 and almost unreally-clear (ELX).

*click*

Switch to the ELX’s again and WHAM. There it is. 20/10 again. Imaging improves to another level of focus, soundstage expands and envelopes you, and you are hit with added punch and chest thump. There it is…no doubt the ELX is going to play in another league above the V1 towers.

A Kudo to the V1: when we left the music on the V1’s for a minute or two, and then switched to a new song track…within a few moments I had a seed of doubt…nearly not sure which variant I was listening to. The V1 towers are still excellent in soundstage and imaging and have fine low end. Give it a minute and my head is nodding in appreciation again. The sound was familiar, recognizable, and still impressive in its own right. I think it speaks highly of the V1 that if we let our ears settle, and swap songs, I’d be back to being impressed by the V1! But then switching back to the ELX’s hit me with once more the ‘wow’ factor. No doubt of the massive improvement by ELX, and it doesn't take away from how good the V1 was.

CAVEAT: I used a lot of words, subjective impressions and hopefully not too much hyperbole here. Please read my tone as earnest and impressed, and trying to convey subjectively what I heard. I’m not a fanboy, I’d buy something else if I found something better in the price range. I’m a long time Ascend customer due to the excellent value proposition. I am sure there is a “better” loudspeaker out there, but I suspect the ELX’s will be hitting in a price class higher than their own. I hope objective measurements will catch up to help explain differences as loudspeaker and crossover design continues to modernize. If anything I’ve typed here sounds over-the-top-or-silly, it’s because I’m not a pro reviewer and I’m simply reaching for a manner to create understanding of my subjective impression.

CONCLUSION: As I said in another post, if V1 towers are an affordable base Porsche…that’s great, but the ELX Ribbon towers are the 911 Turbo GT3 RS. The ELX’s simply run circles around around the V1 towers. The ELX are the best speakers I have heard in a long time and I confirmed my order that day for a pair.

The ELX Ribbon towers are neutral yet impactful, well-rounded and precise. They do a lot of disappearing. The extension, thump and punch of LX woofers is immediately apparent upon hitting play, which is complimented by the well-known (and somehow improved) detail, attack, negligible decay and ultimate transparency of the large RAAL ribbon, as well the EX’s midrange’s ability to simply blend across the other two drivers, fill in warmth and disappear. This produces a punchy, detailed, smooth, yet non-fatiguing sound field with downright impressive stereo imaging. The ELX has a level of coherence across octaves that I have not heard before (or maybe in years from a friend’s Dunlavy SC-IVA’s), I think due to the impressive new crossover topology that no longer sends high/low pass frequency data to ground. Personally, while the combination of new drivers is impressive, I think the crossover design might be the real story here.

I am excited to get the ELX’s in my room and see how they do for gaming, home theater, and television as well. I suspect what I heard from the ELX’s may translate incredibly well for a high-end home theater use. For music, it’s an enthusiastic slam dunk. These may well be true end-game speakers for many users, IMHO.

Edit 2: reflecting on the differences I referred to as coherence, I am very curious how much of it translates to the V1 to V2 crossover upgrade. I suspect the V2 may be a bit of a sleeper hit.

[exptuner]

Hello everyone. New here but not new to this passion. I just want to congratulate David from Asecend. Just purchased his ne ELX towers and center and although dont have much time to go into details but can say I'm shocked at his accomplishment. Jon O. said it better than I could. Thank you David at Ascend.

[Spamilton]

Thanks for the review, Jonny.

[davef]

I found that user's other shootout posts interesting as well. He compared the old ribbon towers to the f226be (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/upgrade-comparisons-ascend-sierra-raal-towers-revel-f226be-f228be.28762/page-2#post-1021112) and then the f226be to the ELX ribbon towers (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ascend-acoustics-announces-new-klippel-nfs-optimized-sierra-towers-and-horizon-center.39567/page-5#post-1405136).

I know the story behind the ELX is more involved and Ascend was always planning to release a new flagship, but just reading those two shootouts back to back it makes it look like Dave was mad the ribbon towers "lost" to another speaker, developed a monster in the ELX to beat it, and we're all winning as a result. :) Can't wait to install my ELX tower and horizon upgrade kits when they arrive.

Mad? No, not at all - I was actually quite pleased and enthused. The F226BE retail for nearly $8K pair and our V1 Ribbon Towers were ~ $3200 for the pair and designed about 12 years ago. I was quite happy with the results of the original review because what the V1 towers were designed for, they held their own quite well against the much newer and significantly more expensive speakers.

Work on the ELX towers began once the LX woofers were designed, which was a while ago and well before that original review. I read that review, not knowing who that customer was (If I recall, he actually purchased his pair of our Ribbon Towers used). I contacted him to see if he was interested in upgrading his speakers as I wanted feedback on how the ELX compared. It was purely scientific and we shared dozens of emails, often getting quite technical. He also gave me the impression that he would be savvy enough to proceed with the complicated upgrade.

I think it all turned out quite well. The ELX towers are really something special.

[davef]

I travelled to Ascend Acoustics in San Clemente, CA for a demo of the new ELX Ribbon towers, including a non-blind AB-AB session compared to the original RAAL towers (V1). It was an eye opening (ear opening?) experience.

Here are my thoughts…written long form for those who need a holiday read….

ASCEND SETUP: Space was Dave’s demo room listening to FLAC music streamed through an OPPO BDP player, using Rotel/ATI equipment, an expensive looking switcher. Listening distance and positioning was similar to my home setup. I listened to the ELX towers full range without a sub for a little over two hours. Dave later hooked up the original towers for the AB session. Max volume for the listening session was measured around 90-95 dB per a phone app.

SETUP AT HOME: My basis of comparison is 4.1 with original Sierra RAAL Ribbon Towers, Sierra-1 surrounds, and a Rythmik F25 (dual 15” drivers eq’d with Anti-Mode). I also have listening experience with Dunlavy, Paradigm, PSB, and a few others over the years. I have been out of the game for awhile, happy with my RAAL towers and haven’t yet heard any of the newer products from Revel, Kef, etc. I run LFE about 3 or so dB high and keep the sub on for music.

NOTE: These are subjective notes; I don’t know precisely what objective measurements will correlate to all the differences I perceived. That said, I thought the differences between V1 and ELX were significant enough to be both clearly audible and I think quite able to be differentiated in blind listening. The original towers still proved venerable and impressive in their own right (allow me to explain later), but were simply outclassed significantly by the ELX.

IMPRESSIONS: Put simply, upon hitting play the ELX towers put an immediate smile on my face and I said, “oh wow” out loud. Emotionally, the words that came to mind were, “stunning”, “visceral”, “unbelievably real”, and “holographic”. The LX woofers are fantastic and I think the new crossover design is some special sauce. Breaking down what I heard:

(1) LOWER OCTAVES - Precise and visceral mid/upper-bass impact with surprising low bass extension: Huge improvement to male vocals, lower tone strings, large bodied instruments, percussion, and chest-thumping-and-punching enjoyment.

The ELX maintain high volume and low distortion to lower frequencies compared to the V1 towers. This was the first and immediately obvious difference. In addition to absolute percussive output, the bass and upper/mid-bass was especially precise and tight. With the caveat that I am used to my F25 in a different room, my impression of the ELX bass was that it gave me most of the extension one would ever need for music, clearly outmatching the original towers by adding an octave and a half or so of bass, and out performing above that. I was impressed by the ELX’s sharp, immediate and accurate percussive impact with very little overhang. I suspect in my own room I may prefer the ELX’s bass above ~30 Hz compared to my venerable F25, and won’t need the F25 for music. I like bass, so that says a lot. In hindsight, my efforts to run the F25’s a little hot and use them for music were because I was seeking the kind of accurate punch and thump output the ELX provides. As an example, tracks from the artist Fink are especially impressive as the ELX’s reproduce a fist or slap hitting the side of the body of the guitar. The sound is slamming and so real in the best way. Male vocals are equally improved with the deeper register.

(2) COHERENCE - An enveloping, nearly holographic soundstage with comparably pin-point placement of sound: all around improvement to presentation…I think this change is the “magic” and secret sauce and most important difference. I assume much of this is due to the new crossover design? This difference in soundstage and imaging is nearly as obvious as the difference in bass, but somewhat harder to explain in words. I am not sure what measurements will fully explain what is happening here and creating this enveloping coherence.

A silly metaphorical way to convey the difference: imagine you are at the eye doctor, and the doctor is flipping those little lenses in front of your eyes and asking you which one provides more focus to read the lines on the eye chart…*click*….*click*. Upon starting a song, the original V1 towers provide a soundstage I know well: I perceive superb placement of instruments left to right, and an enjoyable soundstage in front of me that gets my head nodding in enjoyment. There is height and width of sound beyond the limits of the speakers creating spaciousness in front of me. I can point to placement of instruments in front of me. Overall, it’s excellent and recognizably familiar. 20/20, good vision!

*click*

A switch to the ELX and the sound field in front of me snaps suddenly into razor sharp focus, and yet grows wider and enveloping. Rather than coming “at” me, the sound of the recorded space is all around filling the room, yet the instruments have coalesced to markedly more precise positions in front of me. It’s like switching from 2D to 3D, or from HD to 4K UHD. Maybe that is an exaggeration, but hopefully makes the point the difference to me was breathtaking and frankly surprising. Wow, 20/10 vision, I can read more lines!

My thought: “The original towers are great, how could this possibly sound this different?” Imaging becomes more precise: placement of sounds like guitar string plucks and drum hits are hyper sharp and almost unnerving coherent across octaves. I recognize the familiar RAAL smoothness, detail, and transparency yet there is smidge more presence and energy to what the RAALs are doing. , As previously stated the LX woofers hammer you with authority without being overbearing or unbalanced. The EX midrange? I think this is where the new EX midrange driver shines…it basically blends and disappears and you don’t know it’s there, while it pumps out lots of decibels of nuanced and distinct warmth and low treble balanced to and with the impressive LX output and RAAL ribbon top end. Highest compliment I can give the ELX is this coherence across octaves and how it all meshes to create pin-point sounds amid an enveloping presentation.

The drum track: “Drum Improvisation 1” by Ron Tutt & Jim Keltner, on The Sheffield Lab: Drum & Track Disc is a fantastic example, demonstrating a clearly audible arc of the placement in width and height of the drum set as they are hit/played left right and up down. Combined with the mid-bass impact and detail, one perceives more distinct placement and size of the drum in-front of you, and not just the sound from the point where the drumstick strikes. This effect makes for a stunning stereo presentation. In addition, while maintaining this coherent imaging, the soundstage expands in height and width and nearly sounds enveloping all around.

*click*

Switch back to the V1 towers, and in comparison to the ELX, the soundstage collapses forward, becomes smaller, and unfocuses. It’s still good, but the difference is jarring. Again, the V1 towers, while quite good, are more “flat” in presentation and can’t match the precise localization and wide enveloping presence of the ELX. Back to my silly metaphor: suddenly you can’t read the last three lines on the doctor’s eye chart. 20/20 now is good (V1), but the last lens was 20/10 and almost unreally-clear (ELX).

*click*

Switch to the ELX’s again and WHAM. There it is. 20/10 again. Imaging improves to another level of focus, soundstage expands and envelopes you, and you are hit with added punch and chest thump. There it is…no doubt the ELX is going to play in another league above the V1 towers.

A Kudo to the V1: when we left the music on the V1’s for a minute or two, and then switched to a new song track…within a few moments I had a seed of doubt…nearly not sure which variant I was listening to. The V1 towers are still excellent in soundstage and imaging and have fine low end. Give it a minute and my head is nodding in appreciation again. The sound was familiar, recognizable, and still impressive in its own right. I think it speaks highly of the V1 that if we let our ears settle, and swap songs, I’d be back to being impressed by the V1! But then switching back to the ELX’s hit me with once more the ‘wow’ factor. No doubt of the massive improvement by ELX, and it doesn't take away from how good the V1 was.

CAVEAT: I used a lot of words, subjective impressions and hopefully not too much hyperbole here. Please read my tone as earnest and impressed, and trying to convey subjectively what I heard. I’m not a fanboy, I’d buy something else if I found something better in the price range. I’m a long time Ascend customer due to the excellent value proposition. I am sure there is a “better” loudspeaker out there, but I suspect the ELX’s will be hitting in a price class higher than their own. I hope objective measurements will catch up to help explain differences as loudspeaker and crossover design continues to modernize. If anything I’ve typed here sounds over-the-top-or-silly, it’s because I’m not a pro reviewer and I’m simply reaching for a manner to create understanding of my subjective impression.

CONCLUSION: As I said in another post, if V1 towers are an affordable base Porsche…that’s great, but the ELX Ribbon towers are the 911 Turbo GT3 RS. The ELX’s simply run circles around around the V1 towers. The ELX are the best speakers I have heard in a long time and I confirmed my order that day for a pair.

The ELX Ribbon towers are neutral yet impactful, well-rounded and precise. They do a lot of disappearing. The extension, thump and punch of LX woofers is immediately apparent upon hitting play, which is complimented by the well-known (and somehow improved) detail, attack, negligible decay and ultimate transparency of the large RAAL ribbon, as well the EX’s midrange’s ability to simply blend across the other two drivers, fill in warmth and disappear. This produces a punchy, detailed, smooth, yet non-fatiguing sound field with downright impressive stereo imaging. The ELX has a level of coherence across octaves that I have not heard before (or maybe in years from a friend’s Dunlavy SC-IVA’s), I think due to the impressive new crossover topology that no longer sends high/low pass frequency data to ground. Personally, while the combination of new drivers is impressive, I think the crossover design might be the real story here.

I am excited to get the ELX’s in my room and see how they do for gaming, home theater, and television as well. I suspect what I heard from the ELX’s may translate incredibly well for a high-end home theater use. For music, it’s an enthusiastic slam dunk. These may well be true end-game speakers for many users, IMHO.

Edit 2: reflecting on the differences I referred to as coherence, I am very curious how much of it translates to the V1 to V2 crossover upgrade. I suspect the V2 may be a bit of a sleeper hit.

Thanks Jon, great review and an enjoyable read. We were so busy that day, glad you used the Sheffield Lab: Drum & Track Disc, I don't remember hearing it on, but again - I was running around a bit nuts that day. Thank you for visiting us and remember, I'll have some Tequila for us next time ;)

[davef]

Hello everyone. New here but not new to this passion. I just want to congratulate David from Asecend. Just purchased his ne ELX towers and center and although dont have much time to go into details but can say I'm shocked at his accomplishment. Jon O. said it better than I could. Thank you David at Ascend.

Thank you so much! I enjoyed meeting you and your daughter on Friday and our deep conversation. I was so happy that we were able to fully accommodate your wishes, I wasn't sure if we could pull it off in time, but it all worked out. Hopefully you didn't get home too late and managed to get some good listening in.

Enjoy the ELX Ribbon Towers!!!