Luna as Surrounds mounted horizontally?

[hdkeith]

I am looking at the Sierra Towers and Horizon Center. My room has issues for the surround and they have always been mounted much higher than best practice dictates. I am looking at the Lunas for front heights, sides and rears. For the sides and rears the distance to MLP is short so I need to angle then down a bit. Knowing the short vertical dispersion, an I better off mounting then horizontally so that with a small angle the RAAL wide dispersion would hit MLP better, knowing that will cause some reflection off the ceiling, or live with them vertical and be well under the sweet spot for vertical dispersion knowing I would lose out on highs, even when angled down? The front height I would mount vertically as I am 16ft from them and s small angle down would still have me in the sweet spot for dispersion. For some reference my Klipsch RS35 mounted without a tilt Audyessy can't correct as it EQs the highs as high as it can, but is still and issue. I only care abut the 2 seating positions at MLP so everything I do is geared toward that 2 seat position and even that is more tow my position

Thanks in advance.

[hdkeith]

Bumping to get some ideas. Here is m thoughts right now. Sierra RAAL Towners and Horizon front stage. 2 pair of Luna monitors mounts horizontally (space issues) for sides/rears and Sierra 2EX as front heights since consensus is the top speak elevations (bounce) speakers do not doe much, although in my room I am the ideal Dolby candidate for bounce speakers, 8 foot ceiling about 14-15 feet from speakers. My other options, far less disabler is for surrounds go with Emotiva A2+ as they have a ribbon tweeter and I would hope they would sonically be a close match, while not perfect.

Since my sides and rears are higher than ideal horizontal would all the wide dispersion to encompass my seating, the concern is that now wide vertical dispersion bounces off the ceiling as well. I would angle them down toward ear level.

[curtis]

A few things...

The tweeter is the Emotiva is not a true ribbon tweeter, it is an AMT and works very differently than the Raal.

Not all ribbon tweeters sound similar, just like not all soft domes or metal dome tweeters sound similar or have the same timbre.

There is more to timbre matching than how the tweeter sounds.

Ascend speakers all timbre match well. Matching Ascend Raal speakers would be best. That said, I would suggest the Sierra-LX as an option, it is well timbre matched, and the tweeter has excellent 360 degree dispersion. Also, I believe the custom SEAS Titan tweeter is an option Tower and Horizon, so that is also something to consider.

[hdkeith]

I understand that not all ribbons are alike. What I am looking for is the airy articulate finesse I have heard on some ribbons and know the RAAL will be even better. As I look over the various Ascend speakers the 200s look like a good candidate until you go off axis. Since my room limits my locations I will be vertically off axis a decent amount so that kind of rules them out. The Lunas seem to be (at least from specs) the best due to size and dispersion for sides and rears, but don’t seem to have the umph for the front heights as they will be about 8 feet away. The LX looks like it will want close to 120 watts for the distance and my amp is only 100 watts for surround chanmales which I assume would be enough.

[curtis]

how much output (oomph) do heights need? Is there a spec?

Do you have a layout of your room you can share?

[hdkeith]

how much output (oomph) do heights need? Is there a spec?

Do you have a layout of your room you can share?


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[racrawford65]

Are you mostly music or movies? If movies, I'm not so sure how important timbre matching is, particularly for heights/Atmos, as this is usually just effects and not sure if one could hear a difference.

To address Curtis' question, I don't think there is a spec for height/ATMOS speakers. Most multi-channel AVRs might give 60 wpc for heights/ATMOS.

Personally, for sides/surrounds/heights, especially if mainly for movies, I don't think one needs to go "overboard" with expensive speakers. The HTM200s work really great for these channels, even paired with RAAL-equipped speakers.

[curtis]

Looking at the room setup, I don't think I would be concerned using the HTM-200SE.

I have used the HTM-200SE as surrounds with Sierra-2's, and now Sierra-LX's, and I don't feel they are lacking for movies or music. That said, I am sure I could better match with Lunas when I had the Sierra-2's. If the Luna's become available with the Titan, I will seriously look at going that route.

[hdkeith]

I do mostly movies... BUT, I do listen to hi-rez 2 and multi-channel music. also I was looking at the 200s, but they drop off quickly off vertical axis and since my speaker are higher than I would like (space limitation) I will not be able to directly aim them to my ears, thus the highs will fall off fast. My thinking with Luna was a compact wide dispersion (especially when mounted horizontally) speaker that could function as a good surround and closely match the voicing of the fronts. I would bail on the "elevation" (bounce) speakers and go to front heights, but the Luna may not reach well the 18ish feet to MLP. If the surrounds were ear level the 200s would be perfect.

[davef]

I do mostly movies... BUT, I do listen to hi-rez 2 and multi-channel music. also I was looking at the 200s, but they drop off quickly off vertical axis and since my speaker are higher than I would like (space limitation) I will not be able to directly aim them to my ears, thus the highs will fall off fast. My thinking with Luna was a compact wide dispersion (especially when mounted horizontally) speaker that could function as a good surround and closely match the voicing of the fronts. I would bail on the "elevation" (bounce) speakers and go to front heights, but the Luna may not reach well the 18ish feet to MLP. If the surrounds were ear level the 200s would be perfect.

How far back will you be sitting from the height speakers and at what height will you be mounting the speakers?


also I was looking at the 200s, but they drop off quickly off vertical axis and since my speaker are higher than I would like (space limitation) I will not be able to directly aim them to my ears, thus the highs will fall off fast.

This statement confuses me... The highs on the 200's roll-off very slowly off-axis, this is a dome tweeter and dispersion is rotationally symmetrical. What makes you think the highs roll-off quickly??

[davef]

The LX looks like it will want close to 120 watts for the distance and my amp is only 100 watts for surround chanmales which I assume would be enough.

Also a bit confused on this statement. At only 8 feet away, we recommend a minimum amplifier wattage of 33 watts per channel for LX. With 100 watts into an LX, at your listening distance, you will easily reach 100dB with just one speaker.... This is insanely loud and a volume level that would be damaging to your hearing.

Please clarify so we can better assist you.

[hdkeith]

How far back will you be sitting from the height speakers and at what height will you be mounting the speakers?



This statement confuses me... The highs on the 200's roll-off very slowly off-axis, this is a dome tweeter and dispersion is rotationally symmetrical. What makes you think the highs roll-off quickly??


First I may have misstated what I meant. When I look at the measurements the off axis vertical measurement at 15 degrees drops down a bit, and my best guess is I will be at least 30-40 degrees below the axis. I dread to post a pic because when I did that on another forums switched form speaker advice to basically being told my layout needs to be fixed and the pile on that followed. My room and space requirements are what they are. I am trying my best to up my game within the confines of what cards my room has dealt me.

Whatever I put on the walls I will use a mounting bracket to angle them down toward MLP similar to the rears, which I will tilt down more.


https://pbase.com/kluken/image/172728761

[davef]

First I may have misstated what I meant. When I look at the measurements the off axis vertical measurement at 15 degrees drops down a bit, and my best guess is I will be at least 30-40 degrees below the axis. I dread to post a pic because when I did that on another forums switched form speaker advice to basically being told my layout needs to be fixed and the pile on that followed. My room and space requirements are what they are. I am trying my best to up my game within the confines of what cards my room has dealt me.

Whatever I put on the walls I will use a mounting bracket to angle them down toward MLP similar to the rears, which I will tilt down more.


https://pbase.com/kluken/image/172728761

OK - a few things here need correcting as there seems to be some misinformation or confusion.

30-40 degrees off-axis vertically is HUGE, and will be a problem for any speaker. The majority of listeners are within +/- 20 degrees vertically, even when a speaker is wall mounted. The 25mm dome tweeter in our HTM-200 will have basically the same dispersion as any other 25 mm dome tweeter (unless the dome tweeter uses a waveguide or horn, which would further limit dispersion.

If you are sitting 8 feet back from the 200's, and you have them mounted on the wall at 6 feet high, and assuming your ear height when seated is 36 inches (typical) - you would then be at a vertical angle of approximately 20 degs, which is perfect. With your listening distance of 8 feet, you would have to mount the speakers at ~ 10 feet high to be at a 40 degree angle.

Based on your room diagram, it appears your main listening position is at least 14 feet away from the front wall, where the heights would be mounted. If you mount the heights at 6 feet high, this would then put you at a vertical angle of only 12 degs. Any of our speakers would be fine.

In addition, the high frequency roll-off you see in the vertical off-axis measurement of the 200 at 15 degrees off is only -3dB at around 16kHz. In simple terms, this is nothing and completely inaudible to any adult - very few adults can hear anything at all above 16kHz, and none would be able to discern a 3dB difference. At the actual off-axis angle I calculated for you based on your room diagram, there is at most only 1dB of roll-off. You will experience far greater high frequency roll off just based on the objects in your room, humidity, the positioning of your head while you are seating.

Honestly, unless you have vaulted ceilings and planning on mounting the heights at around 12 feet high, there is no concern here.

[hdkeith]

Thanks, the fronts were only my concern on Lunas for power needed, not axis. My axis concern is the sides/rears where I am close and may not be able to angle them down enough to get within 30 degrees. They will be mounted about 7-7.5 feet high due to doorway and windows. I will take some measurements today as I found a calculator online that will show me the offset from axis. That is why the Lunas looked appealing as at least with most ribbons they have wide dispersion this if I mount them horizontal I could easily stay within an acceptable off axis position. Sorry for the confusion, this room and purchase are driving me nuts as I want to make sure I get this as good as I can since the speakers will be a decent sized spend for me.

Update:
OK I did some rough measurement and without angling the speakers the rears are 45 degree below axis, the right surround is about 34 degrees and the left surround is 27 degrees. The one wall bracket I am looking at has +12/-20 degree tilt so I assume I would subtract ~20 degrees from my calculations.

[davef]

Thanks, the fronts were only my concern on Lunas for power needed, not axis. My axis concern is the sides/rears where I am close and may not be able to angle them down enough to get within 30 degrees. They will be mounted about 7-7.5 feet high due to doorway and windows. I will take some measurements today as I found a calculator online that will show me the offset from axis. That is why the Lunas looked appealing as at least with most ribbons they have wide dispersion this if I mount them horizontal I could easily stay within an acceptable off axis position. Sorry for the confusion, this room and purchase are driving me nuts as I want to make sure I get this as good as I can since the speakers will be a decent sized spend for me.

Update:
OK I did some rough measurement and without angling the speakers the rears are 45 degree below axis, the right surround is about 34 degrees and the left surround is 27 degrees. The one wall bracket I am looking at has +12/-20 degree tilt so I assume I would subtract ~20 degrees from my calculations.

Thanks for the clarification and the image of the room. That is much more helpful and now I understand.

Yes, if you can angle them downward 20 degrees you will be within the recommended vertical angle.

Another option is to mount them to the wall using the side of the cabinet so the drivers are directly firing downwards.

[hdkeith]

Thanks.

My plan was mount them horizontally using the below wall mount which will allow for 20 degree downward angle. Assuming the RAAL has more horizontal dispersion than vertical that should get me within the angles I mentioned and will hopefully sound good. It will also look less obnoxious than mounting them vertically in the narrow space above the door. I was avoiding having to screw anything into the cabinets. I know my room setup is not ideal, but I am trying to work with what I have.

https://www.amazon.com/Peerless-AV-SPK26-Bookshelf-Speaker-Mounts/dp/B06WWCGP7J

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[davef]

Our Luna or Duo mounted horizontally will also work very well!

[hdkeith]

Thank you!