Introducing the Sierra-LX!!!

[davef]

I am most pleased to announce the completion of an exciting new project!!

*Note: Please use this link to place a pre-order: Sierra-LX pair (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AD&Product_Code=9SRLXPP)

Things here at Ascend might have appeared to be quiet, but the truth is we have been fully focused on intense R&D for quite a long while now.

This project started well before Covid hit and has taken so many twists and turns, changes for the better, it became hard to keep track of everything.

Our Sierra-1 was released 15 years ago, it quickly established itself as a new performance benchmark being continually compared against speakers costing 2-3 times as much and coming out on top in direct comparisons. Even today we still receive much praise on the performance of this speaker and there hasn’t been a single change since the day it was released. It was and still is a speaker that performs well in every category, for all music genres and all types of movies. The Sierra-1 is suitable for critical listening while also being a fun speaker.

Fun - a characteristic for a speaker that seems to have been lost in these days of critical listening and measurements.

For the 15th anniversary of the Sierra-1 it was our intention to release an updated version. We were thinking Sierra-1EX, with improved mids and deeper and punchier bass. We had several fully designed functional prototypes and I liked them all. Every design was an improvement over the original, but I found these versions to be too similar to our Sierra-2EX.

It wasn’t our goal to surpass the Sierra-2EX, but rather offer something distinctly different that would appeal to a larger audience. Dome tweeters have their appeal and dominate the market by a large margin.

The Sierra-1EX just didn’t cut it considering ~ $200 more would get you Sierra-2EX.

As I have done far too many times in the past, I scrapped everything and decided to start over. I often forget I can do this and must remind myself that this was why I started Ascend Acoustics over 23 years ago.

So back to the drawing board…

Many more posts coming so stay tuned!

[davef]

The first step in starting over was to redefine and further clarify the performance goals for this new speaker.

I officially started in this industry back around 1983 or 1984 as an audio salesman at an “insanely” popular audio chain (curious if anyone will get my reference.) My interest in engineering soon led me into the tech department where I would troubleshoot / diagnose / repair defective speakers and electronics. Somedays I would be on the floor selling, other days in the service area. Regardless of my duties for that day, when it came time to close or when there was nothing to do, I would lock myself into the dedicated sound room and have at it with a huge selection of electronics and speakers. To this very day, I can easily recall the emotional involvement, my physical reactions and the near instant mood change that turning the volume up, WAY UP would bring.

These were the days before there were subwoofers, and CDs were just starting to hit the shelves. Back then it wasn’t about ultimate detail, accuracy, measurements, it was about volume levels while staying clean, slam and lots of it, midbass punch, a big room filling sound and of course, deep bass that you could feel. ZZ Top was incredibly popular back then, and I would pop in my cassette tape, switch over to a powerful SAE amplifier and run it through some EPI 100’s, some massive Fisher D-15’s or my personal favorites for capturing that energy, some Cerwin Vega DJ speakers. We also carried ESS speakers (the first implementations of AMT tweeters) but while these sounded clear and detailed to me, they lacked that fun factor.

I always left those sessions energized and happy, - always.

I will never forget those times and few speakers these days generate that type of reaction. Much like being at a live concert event where no one is even thinking about measurements, resolution or accuracy. It’s all about energy, emotion, and that elusive “fun factor.”

This industry is changing fast and possibly not for the better. Are listeners becoming too focused on measurements? Too focused on achieving the perfect in-room frequency response or hearing every possible detail or nuance such that the listener can’t just sit back and enjoy the music or movie soundtrack? Does the listener become energized, emotional – does he or she leave the room feeling happy?

With that in mind, and with the assistance of our many partners throughout the world - it became my obsession to offer something a bit different than the typical Ascend product, and possibly any other speaker out there right now. The #1 performance characteristic being capturing that fun factor.

Based on my near 40-years of experience with loudspeakers, I characterize a fun speaker no differently than designers did back then, when most speakers were voiced by ear.



Power handling, the ability of the speaker to handle huge amounts of power, thus producing high SPL’s while remaining clean without dynamic or thermal compression.


Slam, the ability to physically feel the pressure waves produced. In more modern terminology – massive midbass punch.


Deep bass, no additional description needed :)


A big room filling sound. This requires wide dispersion, both horizontally and vertically.



In addition to that fun factor, this new speaker must also have the following characteristics in order to bear the name Ascend Acoustics (not necessarily in the below order)




Smooth detailed highs, no harshness or listener fatigue.


Accurate transient reproduction, little stored energy.


Transparency, reductions in resonances for not only the cabinet itself, but also for the transducers. The speaker is producing what it is being tasked with, being sure no extraneous and distracting additional sounds are manifested.


Compact size, like all Ascend speakers – as space becomes a premium few consumers have the room these days for large speakers.


Good on and off-axis measurements.



With our goals now firmly in place, it was at that point that this project became incredibly challenging. Achieving a few of these performance goals was no problem but reaching all of them began to seem like an impossibility. How could we possibly reach all of them? I had already made up my mind that this was going to be all or nothing.

Sampling process began for woofers and tweeters and the more I sampled, the more convinced I became that this project was going to end up in my speaker museum, with dozens of other cancelled projects.

It was no problem finding a dome tweeter with high power handling, but very few had high power combined with the dispersion I was after and most had high resonant frequencies (a low resonant frequency would be needed so the woofer can be crossed to the tweeter at a lower frequency to improve overall directivity). Even more difficult was finding a suitable woofer; deep bass, excellent midbass, high power handling but for use in a small cabinet?

I was about to give up...

And then things took another dramatic turn….

[davef]

Enter the Klippel NFS!

Exactly one year ago today, we made the largest single investment in our R&D capabilities imaginable. A hugely expensive (over $100K) advanced acoustic measurement and analysis device called the Klippel Near Field Scanner. Very, very few audio manufacturers own one and I am most proud to say that with our NFS and combined with our other measurement gear, Ascend Acoustics has one of the most advanced acoustics labs on this planet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS4IWrYUWrQ

https://www.klippel.de/products/rd-system/modules/nfs-near-field-scanner.html

https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Bilder/Our_Products/R-D_System/PDF/C8%20Near%20Field%20Scanner%20System.pdf

The NFS has gained a lot of popularity recently with 2 reviewers now publishing NFS data for an ever-growing database of speakers. The NFS has also gained quite a bit of notoriety – not at the fault of the device, but for what it is being used for. I am not going to get into that discussion, but I will say that the NFS was designed as an R&D device, producing the highest resolution, true anechoic 3-dimensional near-field and far-field response measurements. When properly configured and with enough experience, the data it can produce is leagues beyond any other acoustic measurement device and the capabilities of the NFS in the hands of an experienced engineer are near endless.

I recognized these capabilities immediately during a zoom meeting with a Klippel employee who demonstrated the software to me.

The NFS also gives us the ability to deeply analyze an individual transducer, to truly “see” what makes it sound good or bad, where improvements can be made.

Now armed with the one of the most advanced acoustics labs on the planet – we took a different approach to the design of this new speaker.

We made yet another costly investment with Klippel and added additional software modules. One of these allows us to export complex data in various formats. It is one thing to look at a measurement but having the ability to access the raw data gives the engineer the ability to take that data and further analyze it however the need. The capabilities here are limitless.

At this point and to keep this exciting, I will make the following statement:

This new speaker is the first and only internet direct audio loudspeaker fully designed and optimized using the Klippel NFS…

[davef]

The Tweeter

A typical full scan on the NFS takes 4-6 hours, our NFS has scanned at least one individual transducer or completed speaker per day since we completed assembly. Once I became fully confident in its usage, it was time to use it to analyze the best measuring ribbon tweeter, the RAAL 70-20xram. Results in hand, it was then used to analyze the best dome tweeter on the planet, the SEAS White Diamond Tweeter. It was my intention to use this data to generate specific performance parameters to define our goals for the tweeter.

With the RAAL 70-20xram, the key performance metrics being its wide and exceptionally linear horizontal dispersion combined with a near perfect transient response. With the White Diamond, key parameters are no breakup modes/ringing in the audible range, low distortion, excellent on-axis linearity (near complete reduction of back-wave radiation). The diamond dome is so stiff that it operates within its piston range throughout the entire audible band, this provides major directivity benefits.

Data was then sent to various tweeter manufacturers, I figured if they wanted our business, they would come up with something that would meet or come close to at least most of the performance specifications I was looking for.

We have been promoting true ribbon tweeters for a while now, but there should be no question that dome tweeters have a huge place in the market, and for good reason. Many consumers prefer the dynamic capabilities, greater room filling sound (much wider vertical dispersion), the brighter and less subtle high frequency reproduction, and improved separation when producing highly complex passages. Because of the high-power handling requirement combined with that room filling dispersion, I knew our only choice would be a high-quality dome. Obviously, the SEAS diamond would be perfect for this, but it was also my goal to retail this new speaker at an affordable price and to come in slightly less than the Revel M106.

My biggest concern would be somehow coming close to the near ideal horizontal dispersion the RAAL 70-20xram provides. Perhaps something would be close enough?

In the meantime, I strongly considered using the highly regarded SEAS 27TBCD-DXT, of which I have many samples. This tweeter has a specialized wave guide and ticks many of the boxes I required, but the high frequency response narrows a bit too much and inductance is higher than I would like (lacks a copper sleeve in the motor assembly). This was the backup though.

I received several more tweeter samples from various manufacturers, nothing met as many of my requirements as the DXT. As such, I eventually settled on using the DXT, and this was fine – it is an excellent tweeter and highly respected in the DIY crowd. I just wasn’t all that excited about it.

This project then took another turn due to an email I received from my friend and the then CTO at SEAS, Claus Futtrup. SEAS had a new tweeter that would meet or exceed every performance specification I specified. I had very strong doubts about this, but I had them send me samples.

Samples in hand, I was impressed with the build quality and overall look. Removing the face plate revealed a very large and tuned damping chamber which lowers the resonant frequency and better absorbs the dome’s back-wave energy. I also noticed a large copper cap over the pole piece which significantly lowers inductance for better transient accuracy and extends the high frequency response while also lowering distortion. The dome itself is an anodized metal alloy, more specifically – aluminum and magnesium.

I have avoided metal domes in the past due to the majority having a resonance mode in the audible frequency range (ringing) – which leads to listener fatigue. This is where the advantages of Beryllium and Diamond come in. However, I knew our tweeter would require a very stiff dome to meet the dispersion requirements. The stiffer the dome, the higher in frequency the dome will continue to act like a piston and according to the specifications, the breakup modes on this new tweeter were above the audible range.

Another interesting aspect of this tweeter is that it uses a titanium former rather than the more common aluminum or Kapton formers. This is a feature normally reserved for very high-end dome tweeters as titanium formers provide better overall damping (it is non-conductive, so the magnetic field does not affect it) and titanium is much stiffer than any other former material which greatly improves power handling. Titanium formers optimize the energy transfer from the voice coil to the dome itself, something where true ribbon tweeters have a huge advantage as there is no voice coil. The former is a thin cylinder that the voice coil windings are wound around, it is a key component.

On the specification sheet I was sent, long term power handling is listed at a remarkable 180 watts, with peaks up to 240 watts. That is as high as I have seen for a dome tweeter. Fs (resonant frequency) is listed at a very low 800Hz.

Wow – if these specifications hold true, this is a remarkable tweeter. Time to scan it…

I received 7 of these tweeters in total, and it was my intention to scan every one of them to establish a baseline average.

I set up the NFS to scan tweeter #1 overnight. I was looking forward to seeing the results in the morning because now I was genuinely excited.

Morning came, the scan was finished, and I set the Klippel software to run the calculations on the data (about 30 mins on average). Had some breakfast and coffee and then….

Shock! Literal shock!!

I was stunned at the results so before I got too excited, I started testing tweeter #2, tweeter #3 etc. There was very little variation between any of them. After a few days of testing, there was no doubt that the tweeter for this project was found. Not only did this tweeter meet every performance specification I set, but it surpassed each of them as Claus had assured me. The final nudge was that this tweeter, in stock format – fits into our existing cabinets with zero modification to the tweeter or cabinet!

With that in mind, I want to share with you the horizontal contour plot of the RAAL 70-20xram. I know I have posted this before, but here it is again. It really doesn’t get any better than this, and the very slight high frequency narrowing above 10kHz is a good thing, as it leads to a more preferred in-room response.


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Now look at this new dome tweeter from SEAS:


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This is flat-out stunning for a dome tweeter; it nearly matches the horizontal dispersion of the 70-20 ribbon! I am not even sure how SEAS accomplished this, certainly a combination of many different factors and some magic – but the claims they made were spot on. This is the widest dispersion dome I have yet to measure, I would classify this as being +/- 80 degrees, and extremely smooth and linear.

Here is the contour plot of the white diamond tweeter:


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It is very good, but not quite as wide as this new tweeter. Not only that, I also measured even lower distortion compared to the white diamond. To be clear, I am not stating that this new tweeter is a “better” tweeter, but in many of the specific aspects I was looking for, it is.

We have made a few minor customizations to the stock version, but little changes were needed.



Meet the SEAS 27TAC/GB, otherwise known as the Titan!

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This remarkable tweeter features the following:



Anodized aluminum/magnesium dome enabling pistonic behavior throughout the audible range
Titanium former for improved damping, better transient response, and massive power handling
Copper cap in the magnet system for lower inductance and reduced distortion
Large damped and tuned rear chamber for absorbing back-wave energy and lowering the resonant frequency
Integrated hexagrid protects the dome while improving dispersion
Very high power handling and a low Fs
Excellent directivity


Somehow, this tweeter combines some of the best characteristics of the SEAS White Diamond and RAAL ribbons. It isn’t as ribbon-like as a RAAL, nor is it as transparent and detailed as the White Diamond, but rather it is an interesting combination of performance characteristics that make it quite unique. In many ways, it is a ribbon-like dome tweeter, or dome-like ribbon tweeter, the perfect compromise in the middle of those two very different top-of-the-line tweeters.

It was at this point that my excitement towards this new project began to build…

[davef]

The Woofer

Woofer selection was a bit easier. Much like our EX woofer, I had SEAS build a custom model for us based on specific specifications:


High power handling
Best-in-class bass extension and midbass
Specifically tuned for our Sierra-1 / Sierra-2 cabinet and port tuning
Stiff cone for true pistonic behavior to better match the directivity of the tweeter at crossover
Copper shorting rings for reduced inductance and lower distortion
High excursion




I wasn’t too concerned with the upper mids / lower treble response like I was with the EX woofer since I can cross the tweeter quite low compared to the Sierra-2EX ribbon tweeter. With that in mind, I wanted SEAS to focus on dynamics, directivity, and bass.

As it turned out, SEAS also had a new 6" woofer as part of the Titan series, it is basically an improved version of the highly regarded L16RNX, the L16RNX3. This new version has a higher performance lightweight aluminum cone, titanium former and increased excursion.

To further meet my requirements, the engineers at SEAS recommended using the larger and more advanced magnet system from the L19, (a 7” version of this woofer.) This would provide even more “slam” – which was exactly what I was looking for. Additionally, rather than use the standard aluminum frame, we thought it best to use our custom tooled cast magnesium frame for additional stiffness and resonance control.

The result was remarkable… very deep bass and midbass punch in a small cabinet combined with exceptionally low distortion and ideal directivity. This unique version of this woofer is exclusive to Ascend Acoustics.

Many will ask if it is better than our EX woofer used in the Sierra-2EX. There is no simple answer to this, in some ways – yes, in other aspects no. This woofer must be crossed low and while our EX woofer has very low moving mass, this woofer has higher mass and the much larger and more powerful magnet helps to compensate for this. This woofer does have even deeper bass extension, higher power handling and more punch – but we had to make some sacrifices in order to do this, mostly at the expense of sensitivity. For what we wanted to offer for this project, it is perfect.


Meet what we are calling our LX woofer:

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The 6” LX woofer offers the following features:



Class leading excursion, maximum peak-to-peak travel of a massive 22mm (this is greater excursion than many 12” woofers!)
FEA optimized magnet system with fitted copper rings for excellent linearity, high power handling, low distortion and very low inductance
Custom cast magnesium basket frame for a stiffer, lighter and less resonant fame allowing for less material behind the woofer cone reducing back-wave reflections for enhanced detail, better airflow and less cavity resonance
Titanium former for improved damping, better transient response, and massive power handling
Lightweight optimized aluminum cone is extremely stiff pushing breakup modes several octaves above the crossover point.
Unique radial reinforced low loss rubber surround reduces radial resonances and prevents surround break up at large excursions
2 layer pure copper 39mm diameter voice coil
Woofer cone acts a pure piston throughout its usable frequency band, providing excellent directivity


This woofer hits hard and is a perfect match with the tweeter. Distortion is kept under control even below port tune frequency.

Although we have tried, we cannot defy the laws of physics so to reach such deep bass in this small of a cabinet, we have sacrificed about 2dB in sensitivity. This is one of the reasons I required such high power handling.

With the popularity of high-powered affordable Class D amplifiers, giving this speaker the power it deserves will yield tower-like performance, both in clean uncompressed output, bass extension and midbass punch all from a cabinet at least on average of 70% smaller than most tower speakers. In fact, comparing the NFS measurements of this speaker with other passive bookshelf speakers measured by an NFS, this speaker has class-leading extension. I don’t even see anything close, and it also surpasses most of the towers that have been measured as well.

Some will ask why strive for such deep bass when subwoofers have become so prominent. This goes back to my first post about achieving that energy and excitement, about moving air and pressuring a room and this speaker presents a shockingly huge acoustic scale that belies its small stature.

More coming tomorrow…

[davef]

I am most proud to introduce you to our new Sierra-LX!

We are simply calling it the “LX” for short.


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Besides all the unique characteristics and features we gave this new speaker, perhaps of most importance is the fact that we fully optimized every component and designed a computer optimized crossover to produce class leading NFS measurements. I know these measurements will be heavily scrutinized and analyzed by hundreds, perhaps thousands of people – but I want to stress something very important, these speakers simply sound incredible and there is really nothing quite like them.

This industry is starting to rely more on measurements than actual listening (where is the fun in that?) and it is critically important to understand that we all hear things differently. These are the best "measuring" speakers I have ever developed, but please just let your ears do the judging, not your eyes.

Sensitivity is a bit lower than normal for this class of loudspeaker (by about 2dB), but I have stated all along that these speakers want and deserve power. If you have the power, you are in for something special. However, while the lower than typical anechoic sensitivity will likely be criticized quite a bit, with having such wide horizontal and vertical dispersion, measured in-room sensitivity in a typical room ends up being 87dB @ 2.83v / 1 meter, which is quite manageable.

For those who do not understand these measurements, please send me an email. I am literally exhausted and there is enough info out there (Google) to get a very good understanding.

Enjoy!


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One important note, with the help of SciLab and the key engineer behind the NFS, I introduce a new measurement that no one has seen before, anywhere. I believe this is an extremely important performance metric as it is a comparison of the estimated in-room response that a listener will hear sitting on-axis, +/- 10 degrees horizontally, +/- 20 degs horizontally and +/- 30 degrees horizontally. It is a modern and more accurate prediction of what differences a listener will hear sitting at different off-axis angles, a critical measurement I relied on heavily in the past. Now fully modernized using higher resolution measurements and now processed with CEA-2034 specified weighted-average algorithms to better determine exactly what the listener will hear.


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Accurately calculating the above measurements without the use of the NFS would require 4,800 different measurements, and likely take several weeks, provided someone had the patience and time to even attempt it.

Note: I have had to change the scale of the graph (rather dramatically) in order to visualize the differences, please take this into account when examining.

This measurement clearly shows the remarkable horizontal off-axis response of the LX. There is less than 1/2dB of deviation between the different off-axis positions and this is based on accepted science determining what the listener will hear from this speaker in a typical listening environment.

Note, I don't believe in the value of Harman's "preference rating" and I personally wish it did not even exist, but the preference rating of this speaker based on these measurements is 6.92 with no sub, and 8.62 with sub. Based on these numbers and the science behind it, objectively the LX would be preferred over the vast majority of speakers out there - but please, let your own ears decide rather than evaluating a speaker by a simple number.

Pricing, specs, availability, pre-order info and a summary coming tomorrow.

[davef]

Summary, Pricing, Specs and Pre-ordering!

The manufacturing costs for each pair of LX is high. The cost of everything has increased dramatically in only the past 6 months and freight prices in simply getting the components to us is 10 times what it was a year ago (that is not an exaggeration)

The R&D costs behind the development of the LX? Off the charts.

To reach the standard industry profit margin (not even including R&D), these speakers need to sell for ~ $1850/pair.

We have always been about offering exceptional performance at pricing far below brick-and-mortar retail offerings, and typically quite a bit lower than other ID audio manufacturers as well. We manage to accomplish this by having a marketing budget of a massive zero dollars and keeping our overhead as low as possible (I work far too many hours.)

I have given much thought regarding pricing and what works best of us during these challenging times. I want these speakers out there so we are going to do something innovative and that no other company has ever done, and very few companies could possibly ever offer.

For what I consider to be a very reasonable fee, we are going to offer, as an option, a full suite of Klippel NFS measurements of the exact speakers that would be shipping to the purchaser (provided in a serialized PDF file.)

The typical cost of getting this same data here in the US ranges between $1000-$2000 per speaker, plus shipping of the speaker(s).

We are going to offer this option for $250 per LX speaker. We will also keep the database file of the measurements, organized by serial number, on our server. This adds additional value to the speakers if ever sold and is the absolute best method of evaluating the speaker if it should ever need service. Note, while the speakers are of course covered under our 30-day satisfaction guarantee, Klippel NFS measurements are not refundable.

I think this unique and innovative option will appeal to many of our customers and is also a way for us to recoup a small portion of the R&D that went into the development of these speakers.

I am pleased to announce a very limited pre-order pricing of $1398 pair ($50 more for piano black) + $50 flat rate UPS ground shipping.

Use this link to place a pre-order: Sierra-LX pair (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AD&Product_Code=9SRLXPP)

We expect to begin shipping by the end of this month, as the remaining components we need to assemble are well on their way to us. Like every small to medium sized business right now, we have experienced extensive delays with freight so it is more likely than not, there will be additional delays. Again, all needed components are just about here.

Unfortunately, these forthcoming deliveries have low quantities of the goods (more specifically, the woofers and tweeters). This is because of supply chain issues experienced at SEAS and rather than wait an additional 1-2 months to receive our full supply (a very large order), in agreement with SEAS – I made the executive decision to get a small supply to us as soon as possible.

Unfortunately, once this small supply runs out (likely within a week from today) – We will have no choice but to increase retail pricing from anywhere from $50-$100 per pair, hopefully not higher than this.

I will also have to limit these pre-orders to 1 pair per person. If you are interested in a pair + center (single), please send me an email.

From an objective standpoint, the LX is the best measuring loudspeaker I have ever designed, and one of the best measuring passive speakers on this planet.

Subjectively, this speaker is just so much fun to listen to. Give it good clean power (and a lot of it) and the sense of scale it produces is huge. It will outperform most tower speakers out there with regards to bass, dynamics and sheer output levels. It sounds incredible with all types of music, and all movie soundtracks regardless of how dynamic. It does equally well at lower volume levels and for critical listening.

Many will ask is it “better” than Sierra-2EX? In many aspects, yes - in other aspects no. They are different speakers, I never really liked how Audioslave sounded at high volume levels on S2EX, but on the LX, it is addicting - like being at a rock concert.

At moderate volume levels, with acoustic jazz, strings, piano – the 2 speakers sound very similar with the edge going to S2EX as it sounds a bit more spacious, with slightly better transparency. The LX has deeper bass and more mid bass.

If you listen to rock, rap, metal, electronic, or want to hit concert level loud volume levels, LX is the far better choice.

For home theater, LX is obviously the better choice and if you want a speaker that generates a huge room filling sound - provided you have the power, LX by a mile...

I was running a pair of LX full range in our sound room hitting peaks of 104db at ~10 feet, I ran out of amplifier power or I would’ve gone louder, the speakers showed no signs of strain, distortion or compression. Clean, incredibly dynamic and detailed, no fatigue whatsoever, huge sound and just pure energy, enjoyment and FUN!

Of course, those are my subjective impressions and I encourage our customers to share feedback with me and publicly because I honestly do not know which is the overall “better” speaker, Sierra-2EX or LX.

In concluding this project, I would like to mention that the LX is going to be an interesting live experiment for us, the general public, and the industry as a whole.

The calculated preference rating of this speaker puts it at the top of the list for passive speakers. On top of that, our LX crushes most passive speakers with regards to bass extension and overall dynamics.

And while I don't believe in Harman's preference rating, and I also don't necessarily believe in Harman's "ideal" for loudspeaker performance, so this should indeed prove to be a very interesting experiment as I always receive direct feedback from our customers.

Will the LX have a higher satisfaction rate than our Sierra-2EX, Sierra-1 or any of our other speakers? Sensitivity is lower so the volume level of the LX must be increased in order to conduct fair comparisons. Level matching is critical when doing comparisons.

That stated, with the Klippel NFS, Harman's "ideal" for speaker performance (which was determined in the 1980's) is, IMO as well as other professionals, a bit outdated. It only looks at directivity in 2-dimensions; horizontal angle vs distance (X = variable, Y = 0, Z = 2 meters) and vertical angle vs distance (X = 0, Y = variable, Z = 2 meters) This is because it was designed to use a microphone in a set position, and then a speaker is rotated on a turntable with the speaker placed vertically, and then placed horizontally. This sound field is 2-dimensional.

There was simply no other way to do it without moving a microphone to hundreds of different positions, a task that I sometimes had to do back in the 90's, a task that I wouldn't wish on anyone. The 2-dimensional turntable technique is what I have been using for decades now, and how I have designed all Ascend speakers - up until now…

Our NFS changes things, it accurately generates anechoic (or even non-anechoic if need be) response and phase data for any position in space, which is truly what we hear from a speaker in a room. To clarify, in a room – we don’t just hear what sound is produced from the speaker horizontally while vertical angle is 0, combined with sound produce vertically with horizontal angle being 0, we hear everything produced by the speaker at all X&Y angles, for example horizontally at 45 degrees and vertically at 45 degrees (and all combinations thereof.)

Even as I type this, a new truly 3-dimensional standard is being developed, of which I have been asked if I would like to participate in.

In the development of our LX, examining the speaker's response in true 3-dimensional space played a big role, and marks the beginning of a new approach to how we design and optimize our products. Presently, this can only be achieved using a Klippel NFS as the only other possibility would be to having access to an anechoic chamber and someone volunteering to move a microphone to at least 800 different positions, with after each move, walking out of the chamber, taking a measurement, then walking back in - moving the mic again and again. It can't be done....

I encourage our customers to take part in this live experiment by giving the LX a try, especially if you own Sierra-2EX, Kef or Revel products because I want to gather as much data as possible regarding comparisons.

As always, I thank you all for your time and wish you GREAT SOUND!





SIERRA LX SPECIFICATIONS

Typical In-Room Frequency Response: 28Hz - 23kHz

Typical In-Room Sensitivity: 87dB @ 2.83v / 1 meter

Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms

Max Continuous Power*: 350 watts

Max Short Term Peak Power*: 500 watts

Cabinet Detail: Exclusive V-LAM™ construction featuring 20mm thick vertically laminated bamboo, internally braced. Bass reflex via flared rear port

Tweeter: Customized version of SEAS "Titan" dome tweeter, model H1825 with titanium former, aluminum alloy 1" dome, large, tuned damping chamber and copper cap for reduced distortion and inductance

Woofer: (1) Proprietary 6” high excursion, high power, aluminum cone woofer, non-resonant cast magnesium basket frame, vented pole-piece, dual layer pure copper voice coil, copper shorting rings, vented spider and titanium former. Custom manufactured for us by SEAS of Norway and exclusive to Ascend Acoustics

Connections: (2) gold plated all metal 5 way binding posts

Inserts: (1) 1/4-20 threaded insert

Anechoic Bass Extension (-3dB): 36Hz (modeled)

Anechoic Frequency Response: 43Hz - 23kHz +/- 3dB (based on Klippel NFS measurements)

Anechoic Sensitivity: 83dB @ 2.83v / 1 meter

Dimensions H x W x D**: 14.25" x 7.5" x 10.5"

Speaker Weight (each): 22 pounds

Shipping Weight (pair): 45 pounds

Minimum Recommended Power at Listening Position for Specific Speaker Distances

3 Feet or Less: 3 watts minimum

9 Feet or Less: 33 watts minimum

15 Feet or Less: 90 watts minimum

21 Feet or More: 180 watts minimum


*Unclipped peaks **Grille On


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[billy p]

Subscribed...:)
After thinking about any forthcoming changes to the original S1....will the NrT version be phased out...this was my initial foray to the Sierra lineup...I just love that tweeter and still do to this very day...by just dropping everything and starting anew...is very interesting....for sure.

[theophile]

Anxiously Awaiting the NEWS, Dave! ;)

Ted

[RMW]

Oh boy…I can feel my wallet opening and my credit card coming out.

[Pogre]

I thought maybe we were gonna get some news on the new web site! Wasn't that s'posed to go live a few months ago?

[Jack1949]

The first step in starting over was to redefine and further clarify the performance goals for this new speaker.

I officially started in this industry back around 1983 or 1984 as an audio salesman at an “insanely” popular audio chain (curious if anyone will get my reference.)

That reminds me of 1978 TV commercials for Crazy Eddie in NYC.

[davef]

That reminds me of 1978 TV commercials for Crazy Eddie in NYC.

Bingo!

[Pogre]

That reminds me of 1978 TV commercials for Crazy Eddie in NYC.

Yeah but... weren't his prices INSANE?!

[davef]

Yeah but... weren't his prices INSANE?!

True story, every product that was sold at Crazy Eddie had a skew number that started with "L9" and then ended with "9". The number that was in between those 9's was double the lowest possible selling price. In other words, if the number in between the 9's was 1020, the lowest price we were allowed to sell the item for would be 1020/2 = $510. We all told our friends this info which resulted in things getting even crazier at the stores.

I met the owner and founder Eddie Antar a few times at the main office on Queens Blvd in Brooklyn when I was being promoted to a floor manager. Eddie eventually ended up in prison for falsifying the books to boost the stock price (after the company went public).

[Mag_Neato]

I remember those commercials!

Dave, I am now checking this thread constantly for your next updates.

Also, is that unicorn (New website) nearly here?:cool:

[curtis]

Dave, I am now checking this thread constantly for your next updates.


It's been about 17 hours with no update!!! :D

[davef]

It's been about 17 hours with no update!!! :D

Big one coming later this evening....

[davef]

Also, is that unicorn (New website) nearly here?:cool:

Target is for first week of April, but our # 1 priority is getting this new product out there. It has been my top priority for a full year now and the finish line is just days away. It isn't easy keeping something secret this long... :D

[RMW]

Big one coming later this evening....

We’re on the edges of our seats!

[MusicHead]

We’re on the edges of our seats!

For some is probably the credit card on the edge of the wallet 😄

[Mag_Neato]

So, going from the latest update about the tweeter, looks like this new speaker will still use the existing Sierra cabinet. Dave, is the new dome material sort of a cheaper approach to Beryllium, having great stiffness with higher break up modes? Also, looks like it can be crossed very low.

[theophile]

[D.F.: Somehow, this tweeter combines some of the best characteristics of the SEAS White Diamond and RAAL ribbons. It isn’t as ribbon-like as a RAAL, nor is it as transparent and detailed as the White Diamond, but rather it is an interesting combination of performance characteristics that make it quite unique. In many ways, it is a ribbon-like dome tweeter, or dome-like ribbon tweeter, the perfect compromise in the middle of those two very different top-of-the-line tweeters.]

Excitement Dave...Great R&D work and all Very Cool!!! :cool:

If I may ask (thank you), have you put the Seas NrT on the NFS for a comparison between it and the Seas Titan 27TAC/GB, both appearing to be more standard top-end dome tweeters? :rolleyes:

Ted

[Mag_Neato]

Latest conclusions and pure speculations:
-With the new tweeter capable of being crossed extremely low, and considering the design goal of high
output, deep bass, slam factor, etc. I'm going to guess there's a new metal cone woofer.
-Will use existing Sierra cabinets per Dave's comment: "The final nudge was that this tweeter, in stock
format – fits into our existing cabinets with zero modification to the tweeter or cabinet!"
-"Slightly under" the price of the Revel M106, which are about $2,200/pr, would put these over the 2EX.
-Would the Sierra-1 still be offered? There's a huge price gap here.

I think that's all I've got at the moment. Anyone else with some theories?

[djDANNY]

I don’t know much about tweeters, but is it safe to say that the vertical dispersion of a round dome tweeter is the same as it’s horizontal dispersion? So what we see in the contour map you posted is both representative of the horizontal and vertical dispersion?

[bkdc]

Very curious. I value the airiness of the RAAL ribbon tweeters over the other superior qualities of Revel Performas so it’s a question as to how much of that ribbon-like quality gets sacrificed! I also think a metal woofer. I’m also curious whether the Tower would get a full-on make-over as it sounds like a good step up for home theater. I’m hoping it is competitive against the Revel M126Be at half the cost.

[mikesiskav]

Exciting news! Love the aluminum magnesium tweeter. My old laptop had a magnesium chassis and was very light weight and rigid. My guess is the woofer is some kind of light weight woven or carbon fiber like material for that higher mid bass output.

[Mag_Neato]

As for a new woofer vs using the existing EX woofer, with the tweeter able to cross so low there would not be a need for the phase plug, which would also maximize cone area.

[mikeTRON]

Where is the prepay button?!

[hometheater]

If it used the same cabinet of the Sierra 1/2, would there be an upgrade path?

Also, I wonder how this speaker would match the existing RAAL speakers. Can it mix well in the front LCR soundstage (so it can be updated gradually)?

[davef]

So, going from the latest update about the tweeter, looks like this new speaker will still use the existing Sierra cabinet. Dave, is the new dome material sort of a cheaper approach to Beryllium, having great stiffness with higher break up modes? Also, looks like it can be crossed very low.

Yes, plans changed for the better when it turned out the new tweeter actually fit into our existing cabinets. Sierra-1/2 cabinets are well proven for both their looks and performance, and this speaker needs the stiffness of the layered bamboo. I was quite concerned about producing new cabinets during these current global economic issues. Supply chain issues have not improved at all, and container shipment prices as well as delays are practically unmanageable. We have 3 shipments "on the water" right now that should have been here late December and we still don't have firm delivery dates. :mad:

In addition, by using the same cabinets it saves us quite a bit of $$$ which means it is easier for us to reach our target price point.


Dave, is the new dome material sort of a cheaper approach to Beryllium, having great stiffness with higher break up modes? Also, looks like it can be crossed very low.

I wouldn't describe it like that. The added magnesium does stiffen up the aluminum significantly which is obviously very beneficial. I know there has been and continues to be a lot of hype regarding Beryllium. In a true Be dome (not AlBe) breakup modes are typically pushed out to 30-35kHz. With this tweeter the breakup modes are up around 26khz, not as high as Be, but still well out of the range of our hearing.

Be domes are very stiff and brittle, and they do not come close to the power handling that this tweeter has. Also, there are only 2 companies that I know of that actually produce pure Be domes, and these are then supplied to manufacturers (SB, Scan, SEAS etc.) There is really no room for customization of the dome. With this tweeter, I am guessing SEAS got involved in the actual shape of the dome in order to optimize dispersion.

And finally, Be is HIGHLY toxic. As good as the Satori Be dome is, it does not have adequate dome protection (unless it is a Be alloy) A misplaced finger or object and that dome will shatter (if pure Be) and that is quite dangerous to us humans.

With the SEAS Be domes (of which I have several), as well as Scan and others, there is always an integrated fine mesh grille to protect the dome.

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=495:e0058-06-t29b001&catid=50&Itemid=247

SEAS even includes a letter with firm warnings about Be.

[davef]

[D.F.: Somehow, this tweeter combines some of the best characteristics of the SEAS White Diamond and RAAL ribbons. It isn’t as ribbon-like as a RAAL, nor is it as transparent and detailed as the White Diamond, but rather it is an interesting combination of performance characteristics that make it quite unique. In many ways, it is a ribbon-like dome tweeter, or dome-like ribbon tweeter, the perfect compromise in the middle of those two very different top-of-the-line tweeters.]

Excitement Dave...Great R&D work and all Very Cool!!! :cool:

If I may ask (thank you), have you put the Seas NrT on the NFS for a comparison between it and the Seas Titan 27TAC/GB, both appearing to be more standard top-end dome tweeters? :rolleyes:

Ted

Hi Ted,

At this point, I believe there isn't a single tweeter at our facility, be that a sample or production model that I haven't run a full NFS scan on :)

The NrT dome is a fantastic tweeter, and purely custom built for us. However, it is a soft dome tweeter. The advantage with soft domes is that breakup modes are better damped, providing a less fatiguing sound. The disadvantage is that because they are not stiff, they lose pistonic behavior well into the audible range (depending on the size of the dome), as such they become more directional.

Since I was looking for a dome that would come close to the wide and linear dispersion of the RAAL 70-20, our NrT dome was not suitable. I certainly considered it, but with this project - as I had initially stated, it was reach all of our goals or nothing ;)

[davef]

I don’t know much about tweeters, but is it safe to say that the vertical dispersion of a round dome tweeter is the same as it’s horizontal dispersion? So what we see in the contour map you posted is both representative of the horizontal and vertical dispersion?

Excellent question, and important to this thread. As long as the tweeter faceplate is symmetrical, vertical dispersion of the tweeter will be identical to the horizontal. Not just vertical, but at every circular angle as well, for example 45 degrees would look the same as 90 degs and 0 degs.

This is very different than with a ribbon tweeter, as every circular off-axis angle differs. Domes produce quite a bit more overall energy and for the goals of this speaker, we want that symmetrical off-axis energy.

This is where our NFS has a huge advantage, I am able to look at the response and phase at any spherical off-axis angle and distance. In fact, I recently had a wonderful video call with the Klippel engineer behind the NFS, Christian Bellman, in developing what I feel would be a very useful new measurement metric. With his assistance, we worked out a way to implement this and this will be discussed in this thread later on.


Further to this discussion. Below is the spherical radiation pattern of the 70-20 ribbon at 8kHz.


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And below is the radiation pattern of the dome tweeter in discussion.


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Notice how the pattern is nearly perfectly symmetrical throughout the 360 degrees around the center (the center is the location of the tweeter). The darker the color, the higher the energy.

[davef]

If it used the same cabinet of the Sierra 1/2, would there be an upgrade path?

Also, I wonder how this speaker would match the existing RAAL speakers. Can it mix well in the front LCR soundstage (so it can be updated gradually)?

I actually hadn't thought about an upgrade path, but now that I think about it - sure, easy enough. It would simply be about swapping the tweeter, woofer and crossover.

As far as mixing well with our ribbon speakers, surprisingly - yes, they do work together quite well. There have been times during direct A/B swapping using an 80Hz crossover and precisely level matched, that I haven't been able to tell them apart. Note, the new speaker has even more punch and deeper bass extension than Sierra-2EX, so that gives the speaker away immediately, thus using the 80Hz crossover and level matched to be fair.

[racrawford65]

Really exciting news. Might have to pick up a pair

[Spidacat]

I know it's early and it hasn't even been released yet, but what are the chances that a tower version eventually gets released? When I think of big/bold/loud/slam/fun/high power handling/deep bass... I think tower, not bookshelf. No matter how cool the design, Hoffman's iron law always wins. I guess sensitivity is what will probably give, but it will have high power handling, but still...

[Mag_Neato]

So...... I'm trying to arrive at Dave's initial target price, which, if the price I see for the Revel M106 is accurate, would put these at around $2K/pair. That's going off the price of $2,200 on Crutchfield for a pair of M106's. I see these new drivers are not crazy expensive, at least in their stock form, so I need a little help here...... Dave, I know you like to surprise us with this sort of thing, so hoping your initial target pricing was drastically lowered!!

[RMW]

So...... I'm trying to arrive at Dave's initial target price, which, if the price I see for the Revel M106 is accurate, would put these at around $2K/pair. That's going off the price of $2,200 on Crutchfield for a pair of M106's. I see these new drivers are not crazy expensive, at least in their stock form, so I need a little help here...... Dave, I know you like to surprise us with this sort of thing, so hoping your initial target pricing was drastically lowered!!

Without knowing much about anything, I’m thinking these will come in a bit cheaper than the S2-EX. The cabinets, crossover, binding posts, port, stuffing, etc., would be nearly the same cost, I’d imagine. The stock version of the tweeter and woofer appear to be less expensive than the drivers used in the S2-EX, though that doesn’t account for Dave’s customization.

Regardless, I’m sure these will be a value leader at whatever price Dave sets them at.

[theophile]

Without knowing much about anything, I’m thinking these will come in a bit cheaper than the S2-EX. The cabinets, crossover, binding posts, port, stuffing, etc., would be nearly the same cost, I’d imagine. The stock version of the tweeter and woofer appear to be less expensive than the drivers used in the S2-EX, though that doesn’t account for Dave’s customization.

Agreed RMW...hopefully their price settles between the Sierra1 and the Luna! ;)

Dave's direct comparison between these and the 2EX will be very interesting! Will there be one that Better fits "Acoustical-non amplified Music" in a dedicated 2.1 channel system (like I have), and one being more appropriate for "Pop-Rock-Electronic-Theater Sound" audio reproduction? :confused:

I suspect they'll be pros and cons both ways, just depending on the applied listening environment of each users taste in reproduced music genre! :cool:

Ted

[djDANNY]

The Woofer
Although we have tried, we cannot defy the laws of physics so to reach such deep bass in this small of a cabinet, we have sacrificed about 2dB in sensitivity. This is one of the reasons I required such high power handling.


Some will ask why strive for such deep bass when subwoofers have become so prominent. This goes back to my first post about achieving that energy and excitement, about moving air and pressuring a room and this speaker presents a shockingly huge acoustic scale that belies its small stature.


Where does power and thermal compression come into play with all of this? I’m assuming (purely on logical reasoning and not any specific knowledge I have on this subject) that if you need more power to “play louder” due to the lower sensitivity, that would cause more heat (conservation of energy) on the motor which would then result in more thermal compression.

Can you comment on the cooling capabilities of the motor for this driver and also if the NFS is able to measure this phenomenon in any way?

[TurtlePaul]

Really cool. I think I found my next set of speakers. Dave, can you share what the "looks" of those drivers will be in the different cabinet finishes? Or is that part of the big later reveal?

[Pogre]

Sounds exciting! I see some questions about option to retrofit with the Sierra 1-2, but I'm wondering if a guy already has RAAL tweets in the 2 or 2EX is this new one going to offer that much more?

Dave, you said you had trouble telling them apart, right?

Then again, I'm not taking into account the improved bass response tho... that can't be a bad thing either! In either case this new speaker looks like its gonna be something pretty special.

[N Boros]

Latest conclusions and pure speculations:
-With the new tweeter capable of being crossed extremely low, and considering the design goal of high
output, deep bass, slam factor, etc. I'm going to guess there's a new metal cone woofer.
-Will use existing Sierra cabinets per Dave's comment: "The final nudge was that this tweeter, in stock
format – fits into our existing cabinets with zero modification to the tweeter or cabinet!"
-"Slightly under" the price of the Revel M106, which are about $2,200/pr, would put these over the 2EX.
-Would the Sierra-1 still be offered? There's a huge price gap here.

I think that's all I've got at the moment. Anyone else with some theories?

My understanding from reading what Dave suggested at the beginning of the thread is that the price is aimed between the Sierra 1 and 2EX. Maybe I misunderstood though.

[Mag_Neato]

My understanding from reading what Dave suggested at the beginning of the thread is that the price is aimed between the Sierra 1 and 2EX. Maybe I misunderstood though.

He originally was aiming for a Sierra-1EX which was aimed at improving the Sierra-1's mids and have deeper/punchier bass, but all the prototypes were too similar to the 2EX which was a mere $200 more. Then, in post #4, he says: "but it was also my goal to retail this new speaker at an affordable price and to come in slightly less than the Revel M106."

I'm thinking he has been able to come in significantly less than that with these new drivers.

[SunByrne]

I actually hadn't thought about an upgrade path, but now that I think about it - sure, easy enough. It would simply be about swapping the tweeter, woofer and crossover.

Since I can now almost do this swap blindfolded, this is very good news!

22mm excursion on the woofer is pretty amazing. Can’t wait to hear these.

[Pogre]

22mm excursion on the woofer is pretty amazing. Can’t wait to hear these.

Right?? That's massive for a 6" driver!

I guess that answers my earlier question about upgrading. There's a bit more to gain than a fancy new tweeter. This is starting to get really interesting!

[djDANNY]

Right?? That's massive for a 6" driver!

I guess that answers my earlier question about upgrading. There's a bit more to gain than a fancy new tweeter. This is starting to get really interesting!

I just googled the driver that this customized woofer is based on. The 22mm spec is maximum travel (which I take is the limit before damage) but the real usable “linear travel” (i.e. limit before it starts distorting really bad) is 14mm which is still pretty respectable I think.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers-seas/seas-prestige-l16rnx3-6-aluminum-cone-woofer-h1869-8-ohm/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwuMuRBhCJARIsAHXdnqMJCiCW4XuJXPK0z44 DF6MsaH8Eseb0u-YNJiYZMK0lw3K_WCQeIOsaAlG7EALw_wcB

[Pogre]

I just googled the driver that this customized woofer is based on. The 22mm spec is maximum travel (which I take is the limit before damage) but the real usable “linear travel” (i.e. limit before it starts distorting really bad) is 14mm which is still pretty respectable I think.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers-seas/seas-prestige-l16rnx3-6-aluminum-cone-woofer-h1869-8-ohm/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwuMuRBhCJARIsAHXdnqMJCiCW4XuJXPK0z44 DF6MsaH8Eseb0u-YNJiYZMK0lw3K_WCQeIOsaAlG7EALw_wcB

Ah, gotcha. That is quite a bit less but like you said still respectable. Bear in mind it is customized and has a more powerful magnet too tho. I know that doesn't change xmax a whole lot but it should have better control and power handling. I might be more interested to see how well this speaker does with bass than the new tweeter, tho I know it's what's making using that driver possible.

[davef]

When I think of big/bold/loud/slam/fun/high power handling/deep bass... I think tower, not bookshelf.

Exactly! As I stated at the beginning, it was our intention to offer something a bit different and this speaker is huge (sound-wise) / loud / slam / fun / deep bass and high power handling :)

[davef]

Where does power and thermal compression come into play with all of this? I’m assuming (purely on logical reasoning and not any specific knowledge I have on this subject) that if you need more power to “play louder” due to the lower sensitivity, that would cause more heat (conservation of energy) on the motor which would then result in more thermal compression.

Can you comment on the cooling capabilities of the motor for this driver and also if the NFS is able to measure this phenomenon in any way?

Power ratings from SEAS are always based on thermal compression. The actual power rating on the stock version is 200 watts continuous, 300 watts peak. Our version is a bit higher.

To be more specific, thermal compression (due to lack of proper heat dissipation) is based on a few factors. 1. the voice coil, 2. the former and 3. the woofer movement (the movement of the woofer is what aids the most in cooling)

Regarding the voice coil, most coil windings these days use CCAW (copper clad aluminum wire). This is common because it is inexpensive (copper has become very expensive) and a bit lighter in weight than pure copper. The issue with CCAW is that it isn't as good of an electrical conductor as pure copper (it generates more heat), and it also has much lower thermal conductivity than pure copper (doesn't dissipate that heat as well as pure copper).

Additionally, rather than a single layer of coil windings, we went with a dual layer, which means twice the number of actual windings which provides even better power handling and heat dissipation. Dual layer voice coils are usually limited to woofers designed for subs. There are additional benefits to dual layer coils but this response is about power handling.

We went with pure copper for the voice coil, which is a better conductor than aluminum or CCAW so it naturally generates less heat, and pure copper has twice the thermal conductivity of AL and CCAW, so it is far superior at dissipating that heat.

As also mentioned, this woofer has a titanium former. Titanium is incredibly strong and rigid, and also has very poor thermal conductivity. The voice coil windings are wound around the former, and what generally causes thermal compression is that the former gets very hot due to the windings transferring that heat to the former, which then changes (reduces) the magnetic field, thus thermal compression starts to set in.

Another issue with aluminum and Kapton formers, and this is one of the main reason for woofer failure or shortened usage is that the high heat generated from the windings and transferred to the former, usually ends up slightly deforming the former, and even a fraction of a mm deformation will cause major problems. This is not an issue with Titanium.

Another major cause for woofer failure is when the voice coil gets too hot, it can breakdown the adhesive bond that holds the VC windings in place. When this happens, a winding breaks free and then instant failure. Or, the insulation of the coil wire breaks down and the windings short together, another instant failure. With this woofer, it would take an insane amount of power to cause this.

Another cause of failure is over excursion, and in many woofers, this will cause the former to "slam" into the bottom plate, this is when you hear that loud bang or pop. With an AL former, it will instantly deform the former - not so with titanium. Also, our woofer is using a huge magnet, it would be almost impossible for the the former to slam into the bottom plate because the magnet gap is so long, instead the excursion would be limited by the spider and surround, not by the former slamming into the bottom plate.

In addition, this woofer has a vented pole piece so that airflow generated by the woofer movement, moves through the pole piece providing constant cooling to the coil. This is further aided by the fact that this woofer has massive excursion (moves more air)

Oh, I also forgot to mention that the voice coil is 39mm in diameter! This is a larger diameter than most 8-10" woofers, and similar to many 12" woofers. The larger the coil winding diameter, the greater the winding surface area, the better the heat dissipation. Most high performance 6" woofers use a 25mm coil winding (including our EX woofer, which at this point, we have yet to see even a single blown EX woofer).

Pure copper voice coil windings, dual layers + titanium former, + very large diameter coil are all top-of-the-line and expensive features and (among other benefits) designed for heat dissipation / increased power handling...

Hope this eases any concerns you have :)

[rsmt2000]

Exactly! As I stated at the beginning, it was our intention to offer something a bit different and this speaker is huge (sound-wise) / loud / slam / fun / deep bass and high power handling :)

Looking forward to your speaker journey posts late at night feels more like waiting for the next instalment of Harry Potter. You are a gifted writer too.:cool:

[davef]

Sounds exciting! I see some questions about option to retrofit with the Sierra 1-2, but I'm wondering if a guy already has RAAL tweets in the 2 or 2EX is this new one going to offer that much more?

Dave, you said you had trouble telling them apart, right?



Yes, they are similar sounding with regards to the highs and mids. However, I do find the 2EX to be a bit more spacious sounding.

It really comes down to what types of music you listen to regarding whether or not this new speaker will be an improvement. Certainly for home theater, and definitely for any type of rock or metal. Hopefully, we will have Sierra-2EX owners also try this new speaker so that people will post their impressions too.

We have a pair in our demo room just begging for people to come listen... :)

[davef]

I just googled the driver that this customized woofer is based on. The 22mm spec is maximum travel (which I take is the limit before damage) but the real usable “linear travel” (i.e. limit before it starts distorting really bad) is 14mm which is still pretty respectable I think.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers-seas/seas-prestige-l16rnx3-6-aluminum-cone-woofer-h1869-8-ohm/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwuMuRBhCJARIsAHXdnqMJCiCW4XuJXPK0z44 DF6MsaH8Eseb0u-YNJiYZMK0lw3K_WCQeIOsaAlG7EALw_wcB

Not quite, but you do bring up a good point.

That 14mm excursion you mentioned is known as Xmax. This is at the maximum point where the same amount of coil windings remain in the magnetic gap so the magnetic field remains linear. Xmax is sometimes also known as Xlin. At 14mm and less, the magnetic field is purely linear.

When Xmax is exceeded, the magnetic strength lessens - this doesn't necessarily cause more distortion, but it is at this point where dynamic compression slowly starts creeping in. On impacts or deep bass, woofers almost always exceed Xmax, it is not something you notice or is audible.

The 22mm excursion I mentioned is also known as Xmech. It is the actual mechanical excursion maximum, which in the case of this woofer, where the spider and surround fully limit further excursion and the windings are out of the magnetic gap. Distortion at this extreme excursion will be huge and I am not sure if reaching this amount of excursion would even be possible as Klippel analysis of this motor assembly reveals that it would take ~ 300 watts into this woofer to exceed Xmax by only +/- 15%

You can see the Bl vs excursion graph here, for the motor assembly we are using:

https://audioxpress.com/assets/upload/images/1/20201001200700_Figure5-SEAS-L19RNX1PrestigeTitanWoofer.png

BTW, this shows exceptional Bl linearity!

[jimlucci]

Dave,

I have been following this thread for days now and find the idea and execution very interesting. Those are some very impressive graphs and numbers! I have an original set of Sierra-1's so if you can include pricing for an upgrade at some point that would be great. I am pretty sure I remember there is an upgrade option to the 2EX drivers, so I am interested in what or if there is one for this new setup.

[Mag_Neato]

Dave,

I'm enjoying the reveal! This new LX version looks fantastic. I am wondering this: Since you designed this with the benefit of the Klippel and have optimized everything, including the crossover, has the idea crossed your mind to use the Klippel to tweak/improve existing speakers' crossovers, like the 2EX, etc.? Would be interesting to see what improvements lie beneath the surface!

[RMW]

Wow, I don’t really “need” any more speakers, but I guess I can find a spot for these. :-)

[RMW]

Dave,

I'm enjoying the reveal! This new LX version looks fantastic. I am wondering this: Since you designed this with the benefit of the Klippel and have optimized everything, including the crossover, has the idea crossed your mind to use the Klippel to tweak/improve existing speakers' crossovers, like the 2EX, etc.? Would be interesting to see what improvements lie beneath the surface!

I’m not sure there’s a lot left to do with the 2EX as it already measures extremely well (and sounds great too!). I think the slight imperfections are the result of the trade-offs with using the RAAL 64-10 in a 2-way. Perhaps there’s updates that can be made on the CBM-170 or CMT-340? But not sure what the ROI would be for Dave on the lower end models.

For me I’d love to see a new/updated tower with some of the fancy new drivers Dave has at his disposal , or an “end game” bookshelf using the 70-20XR. 😊

[merrymaid520]

Sounds like a great new addition to the lineup Dave! Well done:)

Also curious if there are any advantages to using these woofers in the Towers? By utilizing the new measuring system, perhaps some gains can be achieved by using the new woofers and redesigning the crossover.

[Pogre]

Wow, I don’t really “need” any more speakers, but I guess I can find a spot for these. :-)

I haven't "needed" new speakers the last 3 or 4 times I bought them!

I have issues... lol.

[Pogre]

I’m not sure there’s a lot left to do with the 2EX as it already measures extremely well (and sounds great too!). I think the slight imperfections are the result of the trade-offs with using the RAAL 64-10 in a 2-way. Perhaps there’s updates that can be made on the CBM-170 or CMT-340? But not sure what the ROI would be for Dave on the lower end models.

For me I’d love to see a new/updated tower with some of the fancy new drivers Dave has at his disposal , or an “end game” bookshelf using the 70-20XR. 😊

Oh boy, a tower update would get my attention too! Agree with you about the 2EX. It's already a fantastic speaker. The LX definitely looks interesting too, but I'd just buy the whole speakers before I'd swap out my 2EX. Like you said, there isn't a whole lot to improve there. I do know Dave has built at least 1 custom 2 EX with the 70/20 RAAL but I'd have to dig a little to find the post...

Here we go!

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7479-Sierra-2EX-to-Sierra-Diamond-conversion&p=66952#post66952

2329

Those look so nice!

[SunByrne]

Hopefully, we will have Sierra-2EX owners also try this new speaker so that people will post their impressions too.

Dave, in all seriousness, I volunteer. I've heard (and owned) every iteration of this speaker, have heard the Towers there at Ascend, and still have S1s, S1 NrTs, and S2-EXs. (Also Duos.) I am confident I can talk about how the new LXs compare to all its brothers.

If you send me an upgrade kit I'll upgrade my current Sierra-1s and do the comparison. I'm on sabbatical right now so I have time to do a thorough listening comparison side-by-side with the S2-EXs. I'll run a variety of genres from classical to jazz to soundtracks to metal and punk. And you know I will write a long and comprehensive review.

Note that I'm not fishing for a free upgrade—I mean, I'd certainly take it, but I am willing to pay—but I am fishing for one to be sent right away since my sabbatical isn't going to be for too much longer.

What do you think, Dave?

[davef]

Dave,

I have been following this thread for days now and find the idea and execution very interesting. Those are some very impressive graphs and numbers! I have an original set of Sierra-1's so if you can include pricing for an upgrade at some point that would be great. I am pretty sure I remember there is an upgrade option to the 2EX drivers, so I am interested in what or if there is one for this new setup.


Hey Jim - when you have some time, please send me an email about this. Thanks!

[petmotel]

I just knew something was happening in this mad scientist's laboratory. It's been far too quiet for far too long! New strategy to develop in total secrecy, but I understand how much easier it must be to not have to deal with constant questions, comments, and guesswork.

If I might ask, what is the bass extension of these new speakers?

Jay

[Shazb0t]

Hey Dave, really awesome looking new speakers! I love the approach that you've taken with these. Any chance you'll be releasing distortion measurements for the LX? Even the regular Klippel distortion panel would be very enlightening on the performance of these new drivers.

[curtis]

If I might ask, what is the bass extension of these new speakers?

Jay

In Dave’s last update - “ Pricing, specs, availability, pre-order info and a summary coming tomorrow.”

[Mag_Neato]

I think Dave lost track of time and forgot "tomorrow" was a Saturday!😉

[theophile]

I think Dave lost track of time and forgot "tomorrow" was a Saturday!��

He's catching up on missed sleep...He's Earned It!!! :cool:

Ted

[Pogre]

Dave, I'm very active over at Audioholics, one of the regulars. Do you mind me sharing images and info from your posts on the forums over there? I think Ascend Acoustics deserves a little more love and I'm happy to share this announcement and some details with everyone. This looks like a truly unique and differently designed speaker.

I have a nice beefy amp too so these speakers could really shine in my system. My big dilemma is I already have RAAL Towers and I really don't need more speakers. I really do want to hear these now tho...

[D33vious]

Dave, I'm very active over at Audioholics, one of the regulars. Do you mind me sharing images and info from your posts on the forums over there? I think Ascend Acoustics deserves a little more love and I'm happy to share this announcement and some details with everyone. This looks like a truly unique and differently designed speaker.

I have a nice beefy amp too so these speakers could really shine in my system. My big dilemma is I already have RAAL Towers and I really don't need more speakers. I really do want to hear these now tho...

Dave,

I would also ask the same for posting at AVSForum. There is already an active thread there discussing your announcement here.

[billy p]

AVS & now ASR are actively partaking on this news release...fwiw... thou AVS has a specific Ascend owners thread.


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ascend-acoustics-new-klippel-optimized-speaker.31787/

[davef]

Dave, I'm very active over at Audioholics, one of the regulars. Do you mind me sharing images and info from your posts on the forums over there? I think Ascend Acoustics deserves a little more love and I'm happy to share this announcement and some details with everyone. This looks like a truly unique and differently designed speaker.

Hey Pogre - I have no issues with anyone sharing the info and data across the forums or anywhere for that matter. The LX is not vaporware and we hope to start shipping by the end of this month. A small shipment of woofers and tweeters were supposed to be here already, but they got delivered to the other coast for some reason and are now on "the rail" on their way to us.

Freight is such a mess right now, and these parts are coming from Norway (direct from SEAS) - we usually have never had a single issue with getting deliveries from Norway.

[davef]

Dave,

I would also ask the same for posting at AVSForum. There is already an active thread there discussing your announcement here.

Yes, of course... All are welcome to share the news with anyone and anywhere :)

[davef]

Hey Dave, really awesome looking new speakers! I love the approach that you've taken with these. Any chance you'll be releasing distortion measurements for the LX? Even the regular Klippel distortion panel would be very enlightening on the performance of these new drivers.

Distortion is excellent, and I will be posting this. Before I do, I wanted to run distortion at a higher level (101dB). However, at this point all I have is my original prototype pair of completely assembled LX. We have demos scheduled for this week and because of the high spl's involved, I can't take the risk of possible damage. There is no way 101dB at 1 meter will damage these speakers, but I have made some errors on setting the levels for the NFS transfer function before, and I can't risk damaging the prototypes. Once we have more components on hand (we are hoping 2 weeks max) - I'll run more distortion measurements.

That all said, distortion is very low - these woofers and tweeters are designed for low distortion.

[davef]

I just knew something was happening in this mad scientist's laboratory. It's been far too quiet for far too long! New strategy to develop in total secrecy, but I understand how much easier it must be to not have to deal with constant questions, comments, and guesswork.

If I might ask, what is the bass extension of these new speakers?

Jay

Hi Jay,

Original Sierra-1 was developed in total secrecy, so I took the same approach this time.


If I might ask, what is the bass extension of these new speakers?

Excellent question, and to be honest, I don't know how to list it. The NFS measurements show the LX has far deeper bass extension than any passive bookshelf speaker measured by ASR (as well as most towers). What I am finding is that manufacturers published bass extension dramatically differs from what the NFS measures. I trust the NFS measurements, but this is a problem and I am not sure how to handle this (one reason for my delay in publishing specs)

For example, the Paradigm Prestige 15B published specification is -2dB at 57Hz. That is impressive, however, NFS measurements show that actual -2dB point is ~100Hz.

With our LX, the "modeled" -3dB point is an amazing 36Hz. NFS measurements show that actual -3dB = 43Hz. In our listening room, with room gain, I measured nearly flat to 28Hz, which corresponds well to the NFS measured -10dB point of 33Hz.

Do I list specs per NFS measurements, which to the majority of the public, will make it appear as if many other 2-way bookshelf speakers have deeper bass extension, when in reality - they aren't even close.

Take for example Dennis's BMR monitor. He lists the anechoic -2dB point at 36Hz, when in reality, it is much much higher than that. Erin measured it at -3dB at 62Hz - and that is with the original and larger SCAN woofer that extends deeper.

It is also the same for our Sierra-2EX etc.

I don't know what to do regarding listing bass extension....

[theophile]

Dave,

Maybe consult Klippel with these NFS/ASR differential data points?!?

[davef]

Dave,

Maybe consult Klippel with these NFS/ASR differential data points?!?

The issue isn't with the NFS measurements (they are brutally accurate) - it is with the outdated inaccurate techniques used by other manufacturers, or just complete exaggeration. In our case, we have previously used accepted close micing of woofer and port, combined with proper weighted averages. (Stereophile measurements are a good example of this, and they also use a MLSSA system)

NFS measurements are the most accurate, by far.

[mmi]

I don't know what to do regarding listing bass extension....

Why not be explicit about what type of +/-db response you are listing, and/or providing multiple explicit data points. I am not sure but isn't NFS generating a free-field response equivalent to anechoic chamber?

Edit: I feel Neumann are the leading example for provided data, eg see https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g#technical-data

[JustABrah]

So how would one decide between the LX or EX and will we see an update on the duo for a centre that will match the performance of the LX and EX?

[davef]

Why not be explicit about what type of +/-db response you are listing, and/or providing multiple explicit data points. I am not sure but isn't NFS generating a free-field response equivalent to anechoic chamber?

Edit: I feel Neumann are the leading example for provided data, eg see https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-120-a-g#technical-data

Yes, NFS measurements are true anechoic. Neumann are powered monitors, a bit different and not a speaker that any potential purchaser of our LX would be looking at for a comparison. I must take into account how our competitors list bass extension. Other than Revel, Ascend doesn't have any competitors capable of such measurement accuracy. I think I've come up with something that might work, while being honest yet being able to compare to other specs.

[davef]

So how would one decide between the LX or EX and will we see an update on the duo for a centre that will match the performance of the LX and EX?

I will be posting more info on LX vs EX in the conclusion in about an hour or so. For anyone trying to decide between LX or EX, best to email me to discuss.

Much like everything else these days, we are just waiting on parts to be delivered for Duo V2

[JustABrah]

I will be posting more info on LX vs EX in the conclusion in about an hour or so. For anyone trying to decide between LX or EX, best to email me to discuss.

Much like everything else these days, we are just waiting on parts to be delivered for Duo V2

That’s exciting! I didn’t know it was already in the works! Thanks Dave, I look forward to hearing more.

[rsmt2000]

Dave,

Are the first wave pre-release cabinets domestic or from over seas?

[Soupial]

Dave,

Are the first wave pre-release cabinets domestic or from over seas?

I would like to know this as well.

[RMW]

In for an Espresso order. I have 5 2EXs in my small home theater…happy to make a comparison.

[davef]

Dave,

Are the first wave pre-release cabinets domestic or from over seas?

At this time, Sierra LX can not be offered in our domestic cabinets.

[davef]

In for an Espresso order. I have 5 2EXs in my small home theater…happy to make a comparison.

Nice - thank you! I very much look forward to your feedback!

[RMW]

Nice - thank you! I very much look forward to your feedback!

I should have mentioned I also have a pair of BMRs on order and own a pair of Buchardt S400s (which the LXs will be replacing). I’ll do a comparison with all of them.

[davef]

I should have mentioned I also have a pair of BMRs on order and own a pair of Buchardt S400s (which the LXs will be replacing). I’ll do I comparison with all of them.

Excellent! Of these three speakers, the LX has the lowest sensitivity so when doing these comparisons, you will likely have to bump up the volume by about 3dB to match.

[curtis]

Looking forward to hearing the LX! I still have Sierra-2's, so it will be interesting!

I will be needing to set up a system in another room, so this is coming at a good time.

[petmotel]

The issue isn't with the NFS measurements (they are brutally accurate) - it is with the outdated inaccurate techniques used by other manufacturers, or just complete exaggeration. In our case, we have previously used accepted close micing of woofer and port, combined with proper weighted averages. (Stereophile measurements are a good example of this, and they also use a MLSSA system)

NFS measurements are the most accurate, by far.

The main thing I was interested in regard to the bass extension, is in comparison to the EX speakers. Another one of those concepts that are difficult for me to envision, is that the LX series are going to eclipse the EX series in this regard. Mind bender for me to imagine any area of the EX being eclipsed really.

I almost have to buy a set of these, the new tweeter has me curious to the point of distraction!

Jay

[Pogre]

Hey Pogre - I have no issues with anyone sharing the info and data across the forums or anywhere for that matter. The LX is not vaporware and we hope to start shipping by the end of this month. A small shipment of woofers and tweeters were supposed to be here already, but they got delivered to the other coast for some reason and are now on "the rail" on their way to us.

I figured you'd be cool with it, but since I'm basically just copy pasting stuff I thought I'd ask. I did already have a discussion thread started and just bumped it with some images, more info and your charts.

[theophile]

...I’m thinking these will come in a bit cheaper than the S2-EX...


...Will there be one that Better fits "Acoustical-non amplified Music" in a dedicated 2.1 channel system and one being more appropriate for "Pop-Rock-Electronic-Theater Sound" audio reproduction?...

RMW,

According to Dave's Post#7 (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7588-Introducing-the-Sierra-LX!!!&p=68009#post68009), you hit the $$$ Nail on the head! ;)

As far as comparisons, believe Dave's comments that the Sierra-2EX are Best for acoustical music playback and the new Sierra-LX Really Shining with amplified theater and live concert volumes have really Nailed their Sonic Virtues!! :cool:

Congratulations to Dave for bringing to fruition another excellent speaker system in the Ascend line-up and for his contributions and continued professional involvement/advancement in the quest for superior speaker system testing techniques in the audio industry!!! :D

Ted

[High Fidelity]

With the popularity of high-powered affordable Class D amplifiers, giving this speaker the power it deserves will yield tower-like performance, both in clean uncompressed output, bass extension and midbass punch all from a cabinet at least on average of 70% smaller than most tower speakers.


Dave, how much power are you talking about to make the LX shine? I will be sitting 7 feet away in a small 11’x11’x8’ room. I don’t listen above 85dB. Will I still be able to experience the LX’s dynamics at less than reference volume?

[Pogre]

Dave, how much power are you talking about to make the LX shine? I will be sitting 7 feet away in a small 11’x11’x8’ room. I don’t listen above 85dB. Will I still be able to experience the LX’s dynamics at less than reference volume?

Minimum Recommended Power at Listening Position for Specific Speaker Distances

3 Feet or Less: *3 watts minimum

9 Feet or Less: *33 watts minimum

15 Feet or Less: *90 watts minimum

21 Feet or More: *180 watts minimum

*Unclipped peaks

[High Fidelity]

Minimum Recommended Power at Listening Position for Specific Speaker Distances

3 Feet or Less: *3 watts minimum

9 Feet or Less: *33 watts minimum

15 Feet or Less: *90 watts minimum

21 Feet or More: *180 watts minimum

*Unclipped peaks

I saw the minimum recommended power for specific distances, but wasn’t sure what power would really benefit the LX.

I have a 90 watts into 8 ohm AVR.

[sonic icons]

Interesting new speaker! Thank you for the in-depth discussion (as usual) of design goals, driver choices, and measurements. I'm going to add to the chorus of "give us more more more", in other words thoughts on future speaker designs incorporating the new drivers.

I have the Sierra Raal Tower times 3, mains + vertical center. I would be interested in auditioning a "Sierra II Tower", or even a "tower-like" LCR speaker (comments below), if either of these reach production. My thoughts on the "Sierra II Tower": unlike the existing tower, a three-way design probably wouldn't be needed, because of the low cross-over frequency (as low as 1 kHz ??) enabled by the Seas Titan tweeter, which reduces the need for a separate midrange driver. Instead, the new tower could have as many as 3 of the SEAS LX woofer, for higher efficiency (maybe 93 dB in-room like the Raal Tower?) and crazy-high undistorted output when driven by a capable amp.

However, Dave may require a future speaker to be more versatile, with appeal to a wider range of customers, so how about a Sierra LX LCR, based on a Seas Titan tweeter between two LX woofers? This design could work well as a horizontal center (for people who need that) also because of the low crossover frequency which would reduce issues with off-axis "lobing" in the frequency response. (I anticipate the distance between the two woofers in a Sierra LX LCR would be larger than the analogous distance in the Duo LCR, because woofer diameter, but the lower crossover frequency could more than compensate.). Finally, maybe a "pedestal base" could be designed, as for the CMT-340, to give vertically oriented LX LCR speakers a tower-like look.

edit: I would also be interested in an upgrade (or maybe "sidegrade") kit to replace the Raal tweeter in a Sierra Raal Tower with a Seas Titan tweeter. I'm actually very happy with the sound of my existing towers. I'm just curious to compare the Raal and Titan tweeters if that option becomes available.

[billy p]

Can't wait the pre order to make their way out and early feedback....the fact this new design is giving folks with RAAL pause for thought is very exciting....:)

[Pogre]

I saw the minimum recommended power for specific distances, but wasn’t sure what power would really benefit the LX.

I have a 90 watts into 8 ohm AVR.

It depends on how far you sit from the speakers. That's why it's worded the way it is. If you sit very close then you don't need as much power. 90 watts should be plenty unless you sit more than 15' away.

More power only benefits at higher volumes. Otherwise it sits unused and has no effect.

[Pogre]

Can't wait the pre order to make their way out and early feedback....the fact this new design is giving folks with RAAL pause for thought is very exciting....:)

I won't be pursuing an upgrade kit to replace those RAALs, but I am chomping at the bit to get my ears on a pair. One of our more critical, hard-core users at AH even had positive things to say based on info released thus far. This speaker is comprised of solid components and we already know Dave is a talented designer. I'm pretty keen to see what he's whipped up utilizing the most advanced analyzer on the planet!

[billy p]

Yea... Dr.TLS....ik most of the old crowd there....but I don't post or frequent AH.
Considering the genre you and I listen too...you might reconsider....I love how Dave described the LX...playing "Audiosalve"...that's what has peaked my curiosity.

[Pogre]

Yea... Dr.TLS....ik most of the old crowd there....but I don't post or frequent AH.

Yeah, you know who I'm talking about, lol. Hes a crabby old curmudgeon, but a knowledgeable one. I noticed you gave my post a little love too!

[merrymaid520]

Ordered! I want to snag a pair before pricing goes up. I plan to try them in my HT room in place of the 340SE’s. Hoping my 140w Yamaha RX-A2080 receiver is sufficient….I listen to movies at near reference levels. The room is long at 50 ft and only 12’ wide. We sit about 8’ away in the first row while second row is about 13’ away. I do have dual 15” rythmiks in here so hopefully the added benefits of the new tweeter and mid range sound will be worth the upgrade considering bass extension is obviously not a concern;)

[davef]

I saw the minimum recommended power for specific distances, but wasn’t sure what power would really benefit the LX.

I have a 90 watts into 8 ohm AVR.

I should really clarify the minimum recommended power per distance. The amount of power (wattage) recommended is per speaker in order to cleanly hit 96dB peaks with 2 speakers at that listed distance in a typical listening environment. 96dB is quite loud. Since you normally listen at 85dB, you can go with even less power, but I'd recommend sticking with our published minimums because this way you have PLENTY of available headroom to really turn it up, which, trust me when I say this, you will want to :)

[davef]

I saw the minimum recommended power for specific distances, but wasn’t sure what power would really benefit the LX.

I have a 90 watts into 8 ohm AVR.

In your size room and at your listening distance, 90 watts is more than enough. You likely won't even use 1/2 the amount of available power, as 45 watts into the LX with a 7 foot listening distance will yield spl peaks of 100dB.

[davef]

The main thing I was interested in regard to the bass extension, is in comparison to the EX speakers. Another one of those concepts that are difficult for me to envision, is that the LX series are going to eclipse the EX series in this regard. Mind bender for me to imagine any area of the EX being eclipsed really.

I almost have to buy a set of these, the new tweeter has me curious to the point of distraction!

Jay

Hey Jay,

As good as the EX woofer is (and it is a more expensive woofer), its main focus was on crazy low inductance (Excel motor assembly), very low mass, exceptional damping and wide dispersion of higher frequencies. All of those performance features are specific to being able to properly cross to the ribbon tweeter at higher frequencies.

With our LX woofer, those features were not a concern, so the focus was on bass, power handling and dynamics (also low inductance which in the case of this woofer, to produce better transients).

The difference in bass extension is considerable. Here is a direct comparison, properly adjusted for the difference in sensitivity.

2335

It is important to keep in mind that while graph doesn't appear like it is showing a considerable difference, at 55Hz, the difference is 6dB, which in acoustic terms, is quadruple the output (a massive difference). Double the output at 40Hz! The differences are easily audible.

[High Fidelity]

How do the EX and LX compare when used with a subwoofer?

[kyzersoze98]

Hey Dave I sent you an email. I would like to demo and purchase in person this week or next week if possible. I’m somewhat local in west LA. Would love to compare the new LX to my 2ex pair.

[petmotel]

Hey Jay,

As good as the EX woofer is (and it is a more expensive woofer), its main focus was on crazy low inductance (Excel motor assembly), very low mass, exceptional damping and wide dispersion of higher frequencies. All of those performance features are specific to being able to properly cross to the ribbon tweeter at higher frequencies.

With our LX woofer, those features were not a concern, so the focus was on bass, power handling and dynamics (also low inductance which in the case of this woofer, to produce better transients).

The difference in bass extension is considerable. Here is a direct comparison, properly adjusted for the difference in sensitivity.

2335

It is important to keep in mind that while graph doesn't appear like it is showing a considerable difference, at 55Hz, the difference is 6dB, which in acoustic terms, is quadruple the output (a massive difference). Double the output at 40Hz! The differences are easily audible.

You got me, hook, line, and sinker! I've got a spare MCA 20 waiting, hope the 225 WPC gets the job done.

Jay

[SunByrne]

It is important to keep in mind that while graph doesn't appear like it is showing a considerable difference, at 55Hz, the difference is 6dB, which in acoustic terms, is quadruple the output (a massive difference). Double the output at 40Hz! The differences are easily audible.

That's... pretty astounding. The S2EX produces really impressive bass considering the cabinet and driver size. Bass extension is one of the things that really struck me when I went from S2s to S2EXs. For music-only, I can use S2EXs without a sub and still be OK, but I kind of miss the full-on fundamental for that low E. Double the output at 40Hz should solve that quite nicely.

In light of this, you can ignore the email I sent about doing an upgrade—I just pre-ordered a full pair because I'd rather not wait.

Besides, I figured I'd eventually cave with the internals of an S1 sitting around and order another set of cabinets, and the upgrade price + a set of cabinets is about the same as just ordering a pair of LXs, so I just pulled the trigger on a preorder.

Pretty good chance I'll end up swapping the internals between my current S2EXs and the LXs, though, so I can have the only light cherry gloss LXs in the world... :p

Now you just need to get those Duo V2 parts and I'll really be set.
:)

[Pogre]

Hey Jay,

As good as the EX woofer is (and it is a more expensive woofer), its main focus was on crazy low inductance (Excel motor assembly), very low mass, exceptional damping and wide dispersion of higher frequencies. All of those performance features are specific to being able to properly cross to the ribbon tweeter at higher frequencies.

With our LX woofer, those features were not a concern, so the focus was on bass, power handling and dynamics (also low inductance which in the case of this woofer, to produce better transients).

The difference in bass extension is considerable. Here is a direct comparison, properly adjusted for the difference in sensitivity.

2335

It is important to keep in mind that while graph doesn't appear like it is showing a considerable difference, at 55Hz, the difference is 6dB, which in acoustic terms, is quadruple the output (a massive difference). Double the output at 40Hz! The differences are easily audible.

That is actually quite a significant difference in bass!

[Pogre]

Considering the genre you and I listen too...you might reconsider....I love how Dave described the LX...playing "Audiosalve"...that's what has peaked my curiosity.

Oh yeah, that didn't slip by me either, lol.

Right now I'm using my S2s for surround duty since I bought the towers. I don't think I'd gain much. Even if it is an improvement they're my effect speakers.

Now a nice li'l 2 channel in the bedroom or spare room might be nice... for music only in a small room a guy could probably get away with 2.0 and skip the sub...

[theophile]

How do the EX and LX compare when used with a subwoofer?

I have the 2EX HP at 50hz and a 50hz LP to a very capable sub (-3db down at 18hz). I don't detect missing Any audible bass (low-mid-upper) in my listening room...the crossover blend and hand-off is Seamless in My 2.1 setup!

In a standalone full range system, I've no doubt the LX would bring smiles to my ears with it's extended low bass prowess! However, being an acoustical music junkie (orchestral, pipe organ, live jazz, a capella vocals, small live wind ensembles, cathedral choir\instrumental performances, etc.), I couldn't live without my full-audible-spectrum music playback capabilities that a well integrated sub brings to my listening genre library!! ;)

Ted

[RRT-NPS]

At this time, Sierra LX can not be offered in our domestic cabinets.


Man, I would have ordered ASAP if I could get magnetic grills.

[Pogre]

I'm really curious how they compare to the towers. They have similar bass responses with the towers going just a tad deeper. Obviously sensitivity is much lower with the LX but overall fr's are pretty close. If one has the power that negates the sensitivity issue.

Have you had a chance for comparison Dave? What are your impressions of the LX compared to the RAAL towers? Do you possibly see a "LX Tower" anytime in the near future?

[billy p]

I'm really curious how they compare to the towers. They have similar bass responses with the towers going just a tad deeper. Obviously sensitivity is much lower with the LX but overall fr's are pretty close. If one has the power that negates the sensitivity issue.

Have you had a chance for comparison Dave? What are your impressions of the LX compared to the RAAL towers? Do you possibly see a "LX Tower" anytime in the near future?

This... because I have the domes....so I'm pretty certain the LX tower will be a significant change....with the higher power handling xbr70-20, dedicated mid range and overall sensitivity....it might be a wash.

I'm fairly certain if the LX kits come available for the towers...down the road...I'm all in. My hesitation for re-fitting towers is largely due to shipping them back + RAAL...we're talking 1200-1300 CDN....the LX refit will be much easier and done from home.

[Pogre]

This... because I have the domes....so I'm pretty certain the LX tower will be a significant change....with the higher power handling xbr70-20, dedicated mid range and overall sensitivity....it might be a wash.

I'm fairly certain if the LX kits come available for the towers...down the road...I'm all in. My hesitation for re-fitting towers is largely due to shipping them back + RAAL...we're talking 1200-1300 CDN....the LX refit will be much easier and done from home.

I'm imagining another 2.5 way design using 2 of those drivers for bass. I'm sure there are some technical details where they might not work in a bigger cab or something. I do think a LX Tower would be pretty interesting tho.

I'd be very keen on an upgrade kit if I had the dome currently. Tho the NrT is no slouch either.

[curtis]

It looks like the two new drivers were specifically designed for the LX application, I wouldn't expect them to work with the Towers.

Heck even the current woofers in the Towers are not shared with the woofers with any other speaker in the Ascend line-up. They look like the woofers in the Sierra-1, but Dave has said they are not.

That said, the question would be what kind of gains can be made in the Tower with the drivers, and is it worthwhile.

[billy p]

Hey Curtis...ik we're all getting ahead of ourselves....in relation to the towers and what gains will be made... I'd understand if Dave opts not to change a thing but the same could've been said for the EX as a means to an end.... Perhaps not the LX but something different from the current standard towers...thou it might be a stretch...:)

Let's face it the RAAL towers out sell the original by a large margin....this could give others a better opportunity whom are considering towers....based on genre and/or musical preferences.

[curtis]

hey Bill...

I know speculation is fun. In fact another forum member and myself did a lot of texting after Dave's very first post on the LX, specifically, "where it will it fit in the line-up?" "how much is it going to cost?".

I am just amused because none of us have heard the LX and we are already talking about using the drivers in Towers, but it also shows how much we trust Dave.

All that said, I am sure Dave has some ideas in that crazy mind of his, and I wouldn't doubt he's already tried some of them.

FWIW, at least myself and another forum member are heading to Ascend on Friday afternoon. Both of us have Sierra-2's, and have only heard the 2EX's. It is going to be interesting. It has come at an opportune time as I want to put together a bedroom system.

[billy p]

hey Bill...

I know speculation is fun. In fact another forum member and myself did a lot of texting after Dave's very first post on the LX, specifically, "where it will it fit in the line-up?" "how much is it going to cost?".

I am just amused because none of us have heard the LX and we are already talking about using the drivers in Towers, but it also shows how much we trust Dave.

All that said, I am sure Dave has some ideas in that crazy mind of his, and I wouldn't doubt he's already tried some of them.

FWIW, at least myself and another forum member are heading to Ascend on Friday afternoon. Both of us have Sierra-2's, and have only heard the 2EX's. It is going to be interesting. It has come at an opportune time as I want to put together a bedroom system.


Nice...I'm sure you'll give us a good account of the days proceedings....much like your last visit and observations of the EX.

[davef]

Man, I would have ordered ASAP if I could get magnetic grills.

The faceplate of the LX tweeter is slightly larger than our typical faceplate. It fits into our standard cabinets very well, but the cutouts vary more on our domestic cabinets. We also have very limited stock on domestic cabinets right now.

That said, please give us a call - we might be able to accommodate you.

[SunByrne]

OK, now that I've pulled the trigger and am committed, I went back and re-read the story all in one go.

There's something intriguing about this that I didn't really consider when I read it in pieces as it came out. The original genesis of this speaker was about "fun" and not about measurements. (I'm going to hazard a guess that those old Cerwin Vega DJs that Dave loved don't actually measure all that well by today's standards.)

So it's particularly interesting that the "fun" speaker, the one designed to put a smile on our faces, measurements be damned... also measures so well.

So, why?

That is, if the design goal was not to optimize measurements, but rather something more subjective, how did the LX end up being such a great-measuring speaker?

Is it something about the relationship between measuring well and our subjective notion of what makes a speaker fun? It seems like that shouldn't be quite right, if there are fun speakers that don't measure well. Could one engineer a speaker that measured as well as the LX but wasn't fun? And if so, what would that sound like? (I always think when people say "clinical" or "analytic" they just mean "accurate" because they just want something that colors the sound.) Also, if so, what would the Klippel not be measuring that was an indictor of fun? I suspect there has to be something the Klippel measures that would be an indicator.

Or is there really no necessary relationship and we get both fun and great measurements because Dave now has a Klippel and just couldn't resist doing both?

I'm intrigued and I have to say that I cannot wait to hear the LXs side-by-side with my S2EXs for a direct comparison. I really do not need more speakers and I really should not be spending the money but based on Dave's description I just couldn't help myself.

Side question: how do the S2EX's measure in the Klippel? Are there graphs for those somewhere? I'm sure Dave's done it, but if he posted them I've forgotten where. (I know the S2s have been measured on ASR but the S2EX is, IMO, a substantially better speaker.) I'd be interested to see in what ways the LX measures "better" than the S2EX.

[sonic icons]

I'm really curious how they compare to the towers. They have similar bass responses with the towers going just a tad deeper. Obviously sensitivity is much lower with the LX but overall fr's are pretty close. If one has the power that negates the sensitivity issue.


The measured frequency response of the tower in bass - midrange (below 1 kHz) is noticeably different from the LX. For the tower, see post 2624 in http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?4630-The-Tower-Discussion-Thread!/page263. For the LX, see post 6 in this thread. The in-room response of the tower is approximately flat from 80 Hz to 1 kHz. I mean it bounces around a little, within a +/-1 dB range, but stays close to 88 dB. The in-room response of the LX shows a gradual 5 dB decrease from from 70 Hz to 1 KHz; actually this response is very close to a slightly downward-tilting straight line from 70 Hz to 13 kHz.

[RMW]

OK, now that I've pulled the trigger and am committed, I went back and re-read the story all in one go.

There's something intriguing about this that I didn't really consider when I read it in pieces as it came out. The original genesis of this speaker was about "fun" and not about measurements. (I'm going to hazard a guess that those old Cerwin Vega DJs that Dave loved don't actually measure all that well by today's standards.)

So it's particularly interesting that the "fun" speaker, the one designed to put a smile on our faces, measurements be damned... also measures so well.

So, why?

That is, if the design goal was not to optimize measurements, but rather something more subjective, how did the LX end up being such a great-measuring speaker?

Is it something about the relationship between measuring well and our subjective notion of what makes a speaker fun? It seems like that shouldn't be quite right, if there are fun speakers that don't measure well. Could one engineer a speaker that measured as well as the LX but wasn't fun? And if so, what would that sound like? (I always think when people say "clinical" or "analytic" they just mean "accurate" because they just want something that colors the sound.) Also, if so, what would the Klippel not be measuring that was an indictor of fun? I suspect there has to be something the Klippel measures that would be an indicator.

Or is there really no necessary relationship and we get both fun and great measurements because Dave now has a Klippel and just couldn't resist doing both?

I'm intrigued and I have to say that I cannot wait to hear the LXs side-by-side with my S2EXs for a direct comparison. I really do not need more speakers and I really should not be spending the money but based on Dave's description I just couldn't help myself.

Side question: how do the S2EX's measure in the Klippel? Are there graphs for those somewhere? I'm sure Dave's done it, but if he posted them I've forgotten where. (I know the S2s have been measured on ASR but the S2EX is, IMO, a substantially better speaker.) I'd be interested to see in what ways the LX measures "better" than the S2EX.

There is research done on this subject by Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, and others. There’s a significant amount of information available on the web, but the best resource is probably the book “Sound Reproduction” by Toole.

[davef]

Just finishing up a 3 hour listening session with LX vs EX, precisely level matched and properly positioned... With our ATI 1800 amp and just a pair of LX, at about 10 feet back, on impacts - we hit 108dB with Black Eyed Peas "My Humps" Insane bass in this song and the LX handled it like a champ, I hadn't even noticed the red light on the ATI (indicating heavy clipping) until I heard something off. Bass on the LX crushes the EX.

For an overall room filling sound, the LX is far superior and they simply sound HUGE. For acoustic guitars, strings in general the EX has the advantage with a bit more detail and better attack. For music with a lot of dynamics, bass, electric guitars - the LX is really something else. As Dina just stated from the sound room, "they encourage me to let my hair down, to crank it up, and dance around" BTW, Dina was not able to distinguish differences with acoustic guitars, but as a guitar player, I was able to detect these differences immediately (using Keith Don't Go as reference)

Jazz at the Pawnshop slight edge to EX in transparency and detail (what I would expect with a RAAL), however, the differences are subtle to these old ears.

Imaging and overall soundstage between the 2 was not what I expected. LX is sounding more spacious to me and placing instruments literally all over the room. Now, this could very likely be due to the overall setup. I need to experiment more, but both speakers have very wide horizontal dispersion, with the LX also having very wide vertical dispersion.

I am going out on a limb here and have a hunch that, overall, our new LX is going to end up having our highest customer satisfaction rate for any speaker we have manufactured.

Dina now listening to Adelle...

I am very much looking forward to customer feedback on these so to everyone that placed pre-orders, thank you!

There is no question that we absolutely nailed that elusive "fun factor" with the LX, while also giving these speakers exceptional measurements.

You are in for a real treat!!!!

[davef]

As requested, here are THD measurements at 86dB and again at 96dB.


2336


2338



Distortion is impressive, especially the woofer - even at very low frequencies.

[Mag_Neato]

Thanks for the update Dave! They seem to be an impressive speaker.

For those of us who cross our EX's to a sub at 80hz, could you do an extended evaluation with them configured that way? I, in particular, use dual Rythmik F12's with an 80hz hi/low pass setting. I get tons of slam!

[racrawford65]

Dave,
Thanks for the update. The LX sound exciting. Was a preorder price posted anywhere? I don't recall seeing it. Guess I could always send an email or call Dina later.

[Mag_Neato]

Dave,
Thanks for the update. The LX sound exciting. Was a preorder price posted anywhere? I don't recall seeing it. Guess I could always send an email or call Dina later.

"I am pleased to announce a very limited pre-order pricing of $1398 pair ($50 more for piano black) + $50 flat rate UPS ground shipping.

Use this link to place a pre-order: Sierra-LX pair"

[RMW]

Dave,
Thanks for the update. The LX sound exciting. Was a preorder price posted anywhere? I don't recall seeing it. Guess I could always send an email or call Dina later.

Post 7, page 1, in bold.

[racrawford65]

"I am pleased to announce a very limited pre-order pricing of $1398 pair ($50 more for piano black) + $50 flat rate UPS ground shipping.

Use this link to place a pre-order: Sierra-LX pair"

Thanks, Ed.

[Mahawkma]

Thanks for the update Dave! They seem to be an impressive speaker.

For those of us who cross our EX's to a sub at 80hz, could you do an extended evaluation with them configured that way? I, in particular, use dual Rythmik F12's with an 80hz hi/low pass setting. I get tons of slam!

Same set-up as I have so I am curious too. :)

[merrymaid520]

I also will be utilizing the LX's in similar fashion with dual 15" Rythmiks. I imagine Dave can elaborate more on the specifics such as the gains in mid bass and punch even if crossed over at 80hz....plus gains on the top end from the new tweeter. The difference being I will be replacing 340SE''s, not Sierra EX's. Hoping my 140w receiver will be sufficient for this scenario. When seating distances are used like what dave posted on the specs of the LX, does room size also play a factor in the power needed or just simply the distance you sit from them? The room could be 200 square feet and you sit 10 ft away or it could be 1000 square feet and sit the same distance away.

[SunByrne]

There is research done on this subject by Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, and others. There’s a significant amount of information available on the web, but the best resource is probably the book “Sound Reproduction” by Toole.

Thanks for the recommendation. I do actually own a copy of that book, but haven't gotten around to reading past the first chapter or so. I'll get on that.

[Pogre]

hey Bill...

I know speculation is fun. In fact another forum member and myself did a lot of texting after Dave's very first post on the LX, specifically, "where it will it fit in the line-up?" "how much is it going to cost?".

I am just amused because none of us have heard the LX and we are already talking about using the drivers in Towers, but it also shows how much we trust Dave.

All that said, I am sure Dave has some ideas in that crazy mind of his, and I wouldn't doubt he's already tried some of them.

FWIW, at least myself and another forum member are heading to Ascend on Friday afternoon. Both of us have Sierra-2's, and have only heard the 2EX's. It is going to be interesting. It has come at an opportune time as I want to put together a bedroom system.

He barely gets the new speaker out and turds like me are asking about a tower version already! :p

Just some fun speculation. I realize it's not as simple as just sticking drivers designed for a 2 way book in the tower cabinet. That said, I do trust Dave's work!

[High Fidelity]

I have a few questions.

In a small room (11’x11x’8’) will there be more problematic reflectivity issues with the wide horizontal and vertical dispersion? Compared to the Sierra 1? Sierra 2EX? I know with the EX the narrow vertical dispersion results in less floor and ceiling reflections.

How far away from the back wall should they ideally be placed?

Is the LX a neutral speaker? Is it brighter or warmer than the EX?

If using a subwoofer do the other qualities of the LX still shine and/or are distinct? How about compared to EX with a subwoofer?

[billy p]

He barely gets the new speaker out and turds like me are asking about a tower version already! :p

Just some fun speculation. I realize it's not as simple as just sticking drivers designed for a 2 way book in the tower cabinet. That said, I do trust Dave's work!

Nah...after the NrT was released....the towers where on the horizon..no pun intended...later came the RAAL upgrades....I betcha Dave's gears are already grinding....I can't see Dave standing *Pat* and calling it a career by simply improving the Luna and S1+ S2...I'll wait and see what if any news is forthcoming...in the days and weeks ahead.

[djDANNY]

As requested, here are THD measurements at 86dB and again at 96dB.


2336


2338



Distortion is impressive, especially the woofer - even at very low frequencies.

Maybe I’m just not reading the graphs correctly, but why is the low end dropping so much at 70 hz in the fundamental? The original frequency response graphs showed a -3dB point around 50hz, no? We’re these measurements taken with a high pass or shelf to limit the low end?

[davef]

Maybe I’m just not reading the graphs correctly, but why is the low end dropping so much at 70 hz in the fundamental? The original frequency response graphs showed a -3dB point around 50hz, no? We’re these measurements taken with a high pass or shelf to limit the low end?

This is why I generally do not like posting distortion measurements. For the majority of consumers, they are not understood or often misread and what is technically very good, often looks bad to the less experienced.

This is a full range (20Hz-20kHz) transfer function sweep. There is no "shelving" or filtering of the stimulus.

The fundamental you are inquiring about is the in-room response of the LX positioned about 4 feet high, on the NFS stand positioned in almost the exact middle of the room (average sized room I would say). The mic is positioned 1 meter away from the speaker at tweeter axis (I have to reconfigure the NFS a bit to reach that 1 meter distance)

This is why you also see all the dips and peaks in the fundamental (room interaction) It is not possible to take anechoic THD measurements, which I believe is what you are expecting. Nor is there any reason to go through that hassle because to do so, would require an anechoic chamber that is tuned to 20Hz and I don't think any even exist.

For the NFS to calculate field separation (removing the radiated sound from reflected sound) 100's of different measurements in different mic positions are required and field separated (anechoic) distortion measurements are not offered and also not needed.

I am not sure any speaker could survive 800 continuous full range sine wave sweeps at 96dB, not even the LX ;)

Now, I can "gate" this measurement so there is less room interaction and the fundamental would simply look better, but doing so would lower resolution.

This is really no different than how any test system measures THD (REW for example), of course, the Klippel NFS has significantly higher resolution and accuracy.

To properly read this, you need to look at the dB difference between the fundamental response (which is why it is there) and the distortion readings. A difference of -40dB represents 1% distortion. 1% distortion in a loudspeaker is exceptional, below 1% is fantastic. Personally, I feel the actual audibility range of THD in a speaker is >5% (-26dB) A difference of -50dB is 0.3% THD.

Now, what is actually quite interesting regarding that fundamental is the in-room bass extension. At 86dB spl, 20Hz is only 16dB down, this is incredible bass extension for a speaker, especially considering it is positioned in the worst possible location in a room (direct middle)

Even more impressive,at 96dB spl, 20Hz remains at 16dB down - which indicates ZERO compression at the frequency and very loud spl. That is truly nuts!

[davef]

Thanks for the update Dave! They seem to be an impressive speaker.

For those of us who cross our EX's to a sub at 80hz, could you do an extended evaluation with them configured that way? I, in particular, use dual Rythmik F12's with an 80hz hi/low pass setting. I get tons of slam!

Hi Ed,

To confirm, you would like me to listen with the LX crossed to an F12 at 80Hz? I can do this but directly comparing 2 different pairs of speakers with different sensitivities with a sub is problematic.

[davef]

OK, now that I've pulled the trigger and am committed, I went back and re-read the story all in one go.

There's something intriguing about this that I didn't really consider when I read it in pieces as it came out. The original genesis of this speaker was about "fun" and not about measurements. (I'm going to hazard a guess that those old Cerwin Vega DJs that Dave loved don't actually measure all that well by today's standards.)

So it's particularly interesting that the "fun" speaker, the one designed to put a smile on our faces, measurements be damned... also measures so well.

So, why?

That is, if the design goal was not to optimize measurements, but rather something more subjective, how did the LX end up being such a great-measuring speaker?

Is it something about the relationship between measuring well and our subjective notion of what makes a speaker fun? It seems like that shouldn't be quite right, if there are fun speakers that don't measure well. Could one engineer a speaker that measured as well as the LX but wasn't fun? And if so, what would that sound like? (I always think when people say "clinical" or "analytic" they just mean "accurate" because they just want something that colors the sound.) Also, if so, what would the Klippel not be measuring that was an indictor of fun? I suspect there has to be something the Klippel measures that would be an indicator.

Or is there really no necessary relationship and we get both fun and great measurements because Dave now has a Klippel and just couldn't resist doing both?

I'm intrigued and I have to say that I cannot wait to hear the LXs side-by-side with my S2EXs for a direct comparison. I really do not need more speakers and I really should not be spending the money but based on Dave's description I just couldn't help myself.

Side question: how do the S2EX's measure in the Klippel? Are there graphs for those somewhere? I'm sure Dave's done it, but if he posted them I've forgotten where. (I know the S2s have been measured on ASR but the S2EX is, IMO, a substantially better speaker.) I'd be interested to see in what ways the LX measures "better" than the S2EX.

In many ways, it is an old-school design philosophy, completely modernized with the most advanced R&D on the planet, combined with the latest driver technologies.

Yes, I posted Sierra-2EX spins a few months ago. Here they are:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7401-Introducing-the-Sierra-2EX!!!&p=65839#post65839

[davef]

Hey Dave I sent you an email. I would like to demo and purchase in person this week or next week if possible. I’m somewhat local in west LA. Would love to compare the new LX to my 2ex pair.

I apologize, it is getting difficult to keep up with answering all forum questions. We are happy to arrange an audition for you and I absolutely want your feedback. Please give us a call and speak with Dina. This is the easiest way.

Thank you!

[pegdrgr]

I am super excited about the LX. To be fair I am clearly a fan of Ascend Acoustics and Dave’s work. However, any time I see someone who is so talented get excited about something they are releasing, especially after 20+ years of doing that work, I know it is something special. I was hoping to make it down on Friday for a demo, but I’ll just have to wait until my set arrives. Seeing Dave’s enthusiasm for the LX, and wanting to share that with anyone who is willing is making the wait all that much harder.

Dave you’re going to cost me a lot of money, I’m running out of rooms to put speakers in!

[SunByrne]

In many ways, it is an old-school design philosophy, completely modernized with the most advanced R&D on the planet, combined with the latest driver technologies.

You know, for someone with a zero marketing budget, you could probably get a good job writing ad copy. :)

Dave, your excitement is really coming through, and it's making me excited, too. (Dina's enthusiasm on the phone today was also really evident. She is absolutely the best!)


Yes, I posted Sierra-2EX spins a few months ago. Here they are:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7401-Introducing-the-Sierra-2EX!!!&p=65839#post65839

Thanks, I thought I had seen them but couldn't remember exactly where; bookmarked for future reference. Sometimes it's a little easier for me to think about these graphs when there's a graph that matches a speaker I already know. In line with that, I'd certainly be interested in seeing Klippel measurements for the S1 and the S1 NrT as well, because I have a really good sense of how those speakers sound, too. (And the Duo V2 since I'm asking for the moon anyway, right?)

Anyway, maybe I'm mis-reading the LX graphs, but it looks to me like the LX has slightly less upper treble than the S2EX—not in a bad way, but certainly a difference.

Also, as the plot shows (and my listening experience certainly concurs), the S2EX has tremendous horizontal dispersion... and then there's the plot for the LX. Wow. From a dome, no less.

Between the plots and the (dare I say) exuberance coming from you and Dina, I can tell these are really going to be something special. I can't wait to get my hands on a pair.

Honestly, I'm a bit jealous of the folks who are close enough to go give them an in-person listen; Friday should be fun. Those of you going—y'all post impressions!

[Scott586]

I thought I read a comment about running the LX laying on it's side but I can't find it now. Maybe it was a Sierra 2EX conversation...

I'm wondering if I can run three LX horizontally as the front three in a 5.1 setup? Thoughts?

[pegdrgr]

I thought I read a comment about running the LX laying on it's side but I can't find it now. Maybe it was a Sierra 2EX conversation...

I'm wondering if I can run three LX horizontally as the front three in a 5.1 setup? Thoughts?

Since the tweeter is a dome, and in a previous post Dave indicated that excluding a few exceptions, it will have the same properties vertically and horizontally. For a speaker with a tweeter that has different performance vertically than horizontally one can simply rotate the tweeter 90 degrees.

[Soupial]

I placed my order earlier today. Dave and Dina were great about accommodating my wish for a domestic cabinet version of the LX. I can't wait to get these hooked up and compare with the raal towers in the main room and my revel m106s in the bedroom!

[davef]

I'm wondering if I can run three LX horizontally as the front three in a 5.1 setup? Thoughts?

Absolutely, the LX will perform well in this configuration.

[kyzersoze98]

I apologize, it is getting difficult to keep up with answering all forum questions. We are happy to arrange an audition for you and I absolutely want your feedback. Please give us a call and speak with Dina. This is the easiest way.

Thank you!

No worries Dave I spoke with Dina through email. I hope to see you both this Friday.

[davef]

I have a few questions.

In a small room (11’x11x’8’) will there be more problematic reflectivity issues with the wide horizontal and vertical dispersion? Compared to the Sierra 1? Sierra 2EX? I know with the EX the narrow vertical dispersion results in less floor and ceiling reflections.

Not at all, in fact - that additional reflectivity adds to the extremely spacious character of the LX ( a very good thing ) In a speaker like the LX, the total early reflection curve nearly perfect mirrors the estimate in-room response curve, this means that the reflections basically have the same sound character as the on-axis. This enhances spaciousness.


How far away from the back wall should they ideally be placed?

This is very room dependent, but if running them full range, I would recommend a minimum of 6". If crossed to a sub, half that distance. That said, it is best to see what placement sounds best in your room.


Is the LX a neutral speaker? Is it brighter or warmer than the EX?

Yes and yes. It is the most neutral speaker I have ever designed and it is indeed warmer than the EX.


If using a subwoofer do the other qualities of the LX still shine and/or are distinct? How about compared to EX with a subwoofer?

Yes, I listened with an F12 this evening. With the bass extension of the LX and the very natural and accurate bass roll off, it blended perfectly and you can cross as low as 50Hz if you wanted to. Even with a subwoofer, the midbass punch and slam is still very apparent.

[davef]

No worries Dave I spoke with Dina through email. I hope to see you both this Friday.

Excellent! Bring plenty of source material with you if you like and please feel free to bring any speakers you have for comparisons. I believe you have BMR's as well?

[racrawford65]

I placed my order, as well, yesterday.
Follow-up call from Dina on my email was greatly appreciated. She's always a pleasure to speak with.

[petmotel]

Frequency plots of the LX compared to the Towers looks to heavily favor the LX in the lower bass range. I'm thinking there is some serious room for improvement in that particular area of performance of the Towers. I would be hard pressed to believe there is much improvement to be found with the mid, and high frequencies of a RAAL equipped Tower, but given the plots of the LX's bass performance, I'm hoping I don't end up losing some of the affection I feel for my beloved Towers/Horizon.

I'm also thinking that this new tweeter seems like it could be a great option for the standard offering in the Tower, performance/price ratio looking very favorable.

Edit: one pair of Towers are in a theater setting and as such are crossed to a sub. My bedroom system used to have S-2EXs but I took those to my mom's house, so I didn't have to do without when I was visiting. I moved the shop Towers to the bedroom where they play full range. The new LX pair will replace the bedroom speakers and run full range there, and the Towers will go back to my shop where they will again be paired with a sub. I will compare the LXs with the Towers before I move them. My test disc, and SPL meter are at the ready to level match.

Jay

[theophile]

Dave,

My 2EX's soundstage presentation depth starts right behind the cabinets and can extend very deep, well beyond the front wall, like 30-40ft deep (my music room/my acoustical genre)!!

Would the LX sound be more up front of the baffles (less S-2EX laid-back), possibly out-into-the-room presentation (like the S1-NrT was)?

FWIW,
My Current Room Setup: https://postimg.cc/KkSN3BCk

What I Hear: https://postimg.cc/BX948fg7

Thanks,
Ted

[N Boros]

This is why I generally do not like posting distortion measurements. For the majority of consumers, they are not understood or often misread and what is technically very good, often looks bad to the less experienced.

This is a full range (20Hz-20kHz) transfer function sweep. There is no "shelving" or filtering of the stimulus.

The fundamental you are inquiring about is the in-room response of the LX positioned about 4 feet high, on the NFS stand positioned in almost the exact middle of the room (average sized room I would say). The mic is positioned 1 meter away from the speaker at tweeter axis (I have to reconfigure the NFS a bit to reach that 1 meter distance)

This is why you also see all the dips and peaks in the fundamental (room interaction) It is not possible to take anechoic THD measurements, which I believe is what you are expecting. Nor is there any reason to go through that hassle because to do so, would require an anechoic chamber that is tuned to 20Hz and I don't think any even exist.

For the NFS to calculate field separation (removing the radiated sound from reflected sound) 100's of different measurements in different mic positions are required and field separated (anechoic) distortion measurements are not offered and also not needed.

I am not sure any speaker could survive 800 continuous full range sine wave sweeps at 96dB, not even the LX ;)

Now, I can "gate" this measurement so there is less room interaction and the fundamental would simply look better, but doing so would lower resolution.

This is really no different than how any test system measures THD (REW for example), of course, the Klippel NFS has significantly higher resolution and accuracy.

To properly read this, you need to look at the dB difference between the fundamental response (which is why it is there) and the distortion readings. A difference of -40dB represents 1% distortion. 1% distortion in a loudspeaker is exceptional, below 1% is fantastic. Personally, I feel the actual audibility range of THD in a speaker is >5% (-26dB) A difference of -50dB is 0.3% THD.

Now, what is actually quite interesting regarding that fundamental is the in-room bass extension. At 86dB spl, 20Hz is only 16dB down, this is incredible bass extension for a speaker, especially considering it is positioned in the worst possible location in a room (direct middle)

Even more impressive,at 96dB spl, 20Hz remains at 16dB down - which indicates ZERO compression at the frequency and very loud spl. That is truly nuts!

One way to address this issue is to make sure to add an explanation, like you did here, to accompany any distortion measurements that you post. It sounds like the distortion is exceptional in this speakers as well.

[N Boros]

I like the design goals of this speaker. IÂ’m just not sure if I want to give up the Raal ribbon tweeter in my theater room. It has done wonders for my mild tinnitus. With my previous speakers I would get fatigue after listening at -30dB after only a couple of hours and they had a titanium dome tweeter. Going to the Raal ribbon tweeter allowed me to go up to -20dB and sometimes -15dB over long periods of time without fatigue. I know that not all titanium dome tweeters are the same and what makes the ribbon tweeter easy to listen to for long periods of time is the exceptional transient response. Dave has mentioned that this tweeter in the LX is very similar to a ribbon, with the wide horizontal dispersion and even sounds quite similar. I wonder if the transient response is similar to a ribbon tweeter where I can experience less fatigue?

I donÂ’t think I would replace my Sierra 2s in my theater room. But in my living room for gaming and casual tv viewing I use CMT 340s. I still have the boxes and could sell them on eBay and replace them with LXs, but only if they are not fatiguing to me like the Sierra 2s. The 340s are definitely an improvement over my Axiom speakers, that I were awful for my tinnitus, but still not as easy to listen to as the Sierra 2s.

[merrymaid520]

I like the design goals of this speaker. IÂ’m just not sure if I want to give up the Raal ribbon tweeter in my theater room. It has done wonders for my mild tinnitus. With my previous speakers I would get fatigue after listening at -30dB after only a couple of hours and they had a titanium dome tweeter. Going to the Raal ribbon tweeter allowed me to go up to -20dB and sometimes -15dB over long periods of time without fatigue. I know that not all titanium dome tweeters are the same and what makes the ribbon tweeter easy to listen to for long periods of time is the exceptional transient response. Dave has mentioned that this tweeter in the LX is very similar to a ribbon, with the wide horizontal dispersion and even sounds quite similar. I wonder if the transient response is similar to a ribbon tweeter where I can experience less fatigue?

I donÂ’t think I would replace my Sierra 2s in my theater room. But in my living room for gaming and casual tv viewing I use CMT 340s. I still have the boxes and could sell them on eBay and replace them with LXs, but only if they are not fatiguing to me like the Sierra 2s. The 340s are definitely an improvement over my Axiom speakers, that I were awful for my tinnitus, but still not as easy to listen to as the Sierra 2s.

I'll be replacing my 340SEs with the LX's, so I can let you know how they compare:). Based on all of Daves feedback, it does not appear the LX will be too bright or fatiguing in anyway.

On a side note, I went back up to my HT room last night and checked all my levels using my SpL meter and realized reference level is louder than I normally listen to, especially movies! I have my Yamaha receiver set so that each speaker plays at reference level (80db) when the volume setting is at 0.0. I listened to a few scenes from the Matrix resurrections 4k Dolby Atmos release on Blu Ray UHD and oddly enough, -10 to -15db from reference was loud enough:) Peaks were still hitting around 90db which at 8 feet is crazy loud.

So I dont believe my 140w per channel yamaha will struggle powering the LX's at an 8-13' listening distance to reference levels....Dave recommends (on the specs and subsequent posts) I only need roughly 90 watts at these distances to safely hit 96db! Should be good! I was hoping to avoid having to snag a separate amp.

[James]

I'd be very interested in a comparison between the LXs and the Towers with Nrt domes, if anybody will be doing that.

Also, I hope that we'll get a product page with the LX info, using the same measurements as the other products at some point - it's a bit hard for me to compare those with Klippel scans.

The best measuring speakers ever from a company known for accurate speakers that measure well intrigues me - in what ways are the LX measurements better than the Towers with Nrt domes? I have those Towers and they seem to be very good in all ways to me.

[Mag_Neato]

Dave, what have you done?!!

You've brought out people's neuroses of speaker envy!;)

[James]

:D

If I had $1500-2000 to play with, I'd buy the LX just to hear them myself, given the description. But I'll have to rely on others right now.

In some ways, I suspect that for the kind of music we listen to and the levels we listen at, the improvements of the LX might not be as meaningful for us as for others.

But I'd like to understand them anyway.

[billy p]

:D

If I had $1500-2000 to play with, I'd buy the LX just to hear them myself, given the description. But I'll have to rely on others right now.

In some ways, I suspect that for the kind of music we listen to and the levels we listen at, the improvements of the LX might not be as meaningful for us as for others.

But I'd like to understand them anyway.

I'm with you because I have the NrT towers. However....it would appear to me the new tweeter at the very least has a wider horizontal plane making it comparable to the RAAL...perhaps less nuanced in some aspects but similarly.. very close...yet has a more dynamic range in that of a dome plus broader and more immersive sound-stage... based on the demo Dave and staff did other night. One of the reasons I did the horizon refit was because of certain aspects lacking with my NrT CC and just cherry picking this new dome gives you the best of both...of course those tidbits where based on the entirety of the LX speaker.

[James]

Hi billy - thanks.

One of the achievements of the LX speakers is that they've turned me from a long-time lurker to a new poster - ha ha.

Did you notice anything else you thought might be an improvement over the dome towers, especially for acoustic music at modest listening levels? If the main one for us would be a more ribbon-like tweeter, it might make more sense to upgrade to the RAAL towers at some point.

I don't have any complaints about the dome towers, and don't feel that anything is missing.

[petmotel]

As far as mixing well with our ribbon speakers, surprisingly - yes, they do work together quite well. There have been times during direct A/B swapping using an 80Hz crossover and precisely level matched, that I haven't been able to tell them apart.

I intend on fully exploring this aspect of their character by replacing a pair of EXs with LXs as side surrounds and playing some of my very best 5.1 channel source material through my theater system. Originally I had S1s with NRT upgrades as surrounds in this system, the mismatch between the ribbon and dome speakers was readily apparent when sparkly type sounds panned around the room. I'm confident that will not be the case with the LXs, I'm very curious and excited about this to be sure!

Jay

[davef]

Dave, what have you done?!!

You've brought out people's neuroses of speaker envy!;)

Ha - including my own! I need more people to listen and report back :)

[billy p]

I'd defer to Dave on acoustical content playback...on "Keith don't go" track from Nils Lofgren he could clearly hear things others within the room could not with the EX...it is rumored that Dave enjoys guitar and why all his designs reproduce it so eloquently...as for myself....I'm not a jazz or blues enthusiast.. the folks who rave about the RAAL...are geared towards those genre's.

I'll be pretty vested over the next several days to read and observe what those early adaptors are saying...I reckon it will be extremely positive...

Regards,

Bill



Hi billy - thanks.

One of the achievements of the LX speakers is that they've turned me from a long-time lurker to a new poster - ha ha.

Did you notice anything else you thought might be an improvement over the dome towers, especially for acoustic music at modest listening levels? If the main one for us would be a more ribbon-like tweeter, it might make more sense to upgrade to the RAAL towers at some point.

I don't have any complaints about the dome towers, and don't feel that anything is missing.

[James]

That makes sense - if I lived in CA and could get to them, I'd be over there listening to the speakers in a flash :-)

I'll also be following the feedback from early owners closely - even though the LX is designed more for rock enthusiasts who like to listen at higher levels. If it really is better than our towers in ways that would be meaningful for us, it's an interesting possibility.

[petmotel]

I've had some time to reflect on what Dave posted about the concept of the new LX speakers, and I wanted to share a thought about Ascend in general. I think back to the very first Ascends I bought many years ago. Even though they were used, the S1s brought a realization of how much better a speaker could be than the stuff one would find in your typical shop. So the premise is the new LXs are all about fun, I would suggest that's how I've felt about all of the speakers Dave has given this World. Hardly a day passes for many years now that my day isn't brightened by listening to the stunning performance afforded me by his designs.

So now I await the arrival of yet another of Dave's creations, I have no doubt it will continue the tradition of enhancing my existence. I just wanted to say that I find all of the Ascend speakers I have owned or still own have brought the excitement and fun factor.

Jay

[theophile]

I've had some time to reflect on what Dave posted about the concept of the new LX speakers, and I wanted to share a thought about Ascend in general. I think back to the very first Ascends I bought many years ago. Even though they were used, the S1s brought a realization of how much better a speaker could be than the stuff one would find in your typical shop. So the premise is the new LXs are all about fun, I would suggest that's how I've felt about all of the speakers Dave has given this World. Hardly a day passes for many years now that my day isn't brightened by listening to the stunning performance afforded me by his designs.

So now I await the arrival of yet another of Dave's creations, I have no doubt it will continue the tradition of enhancing my existence. I just wanted to say that I find all of the Ascend speakers I have owned or still own have brought the excitement and fun factor.

Jay

Well stated, Jay...I certainly Agree!!! :D

Ted

[mpitogo]

Hello all,

New here, just registered 24-Mar 2022! DaveF was that Crazy Eddie? I pre-ordered my first AA product, the AA Sierra LX after some recommendations. I've usually done big box store brands, Polk (flagship line only), Martin Logan (Motion line only), Elac AJ speakers, Jamo, QAcoustics, Klipsch, KEF, Totem. I had a dual use PM-10 that was powering my main L/R speaker in a family room HT which can also be switched on independently for 2.0 music with the SA-10.

I recently moved to a new house and am building a dedicated media room HT and pulled the PM-10, I wanted to get something for a small L shaped office 16'x14/11' these look to fit the bill perfectly. The only speaker I own that would be surprising is the Totem Hawk "big sound little box" and very sweet. I'm looking forward to these speakers! Cheers!

[hometheater]

By all accounts, this will be the best overall speaker offered by Ascend which is amazing considering how great the Sierra-2EX and Sierra Towers are. Although I haven't seen direct comparisons with the Towers, this speaker appears to have improved bass extension and will play just as loud or louder. While the Sierra-2EX may be slightly better in some upper frequency ranges, the LX is clearly the overall better speaker.

I think this is just the result of the technology being able to develop better drivers and Dave being able to find them and put them to use.

It's nice that some people with already great Ascend speakers be able to spend the extra $1500 for pair or more with the center. For those that don't already have their other great speakers, this is a great time to get in. You may be getting the best speaker available for any "reasonable" price.

Of course, would love to get feedback from others that have or had Sierra-2EXs or Towers.

The only possible drawback is to truly realize the FULL capabilities of this speaker, some may have to invest in better amplification. But even at less than full capability, it will probably perform great.

BTW, I have Sierra-2EXs for LR and a Sierra 2 as center. For music, the Sierra-2EXs are ran full range as my subs are more HT oriented. For HT, they're crossed over at 80hz.

[petmotel]

By all accounts, this will be the best overall speaker offered by Ascend which is amazing considering how great the Sierra-2EX and Sierra Towers are.

The thing is that other than the folks at Ascend, and maybe a few that have auditioned at their offices, there are no accounts to account for. Bit premature to announce supremacy at this point IMHO.

Jay

[hometheater]

The thing is that other than the folks at Ascend, and maybe a few that have auditioned at their offices, there are no accounts to account for. Bit premature to announce supremacy at this point IMHO.

Jay

True but the measurements look great and who knows Ascend speakers better than Dave? Also, based on the specs the capabilities on these new drivers are staggering, at least at these costs.

I did say later it would be great to hear feedback later on those that can compare the LX to said speakers.

[billy p]

I agree...if your reading between the lines...you'll see traces or hints...if not equal to or greater than...these new speaker are a marvel...and I for one don't fully comprehend all the data or information laid out in this thread...but Dave has something special on his hands.

[davef]

The thing is that other than the folks at Ascend, and maybe a few that have auditioned at their offices, there are no accounts to account for. Bit premature to announce supremacy at this point IMHO.

Jay

We should get some great honest feedback tomorrow late afternoon. I believe there are 5 people coming to demo.

[davef]

By all accounts, this will be the best overall speaker offered by Ascend which is amazing considering how great the Sierra-2EX and Sierra Towers are. Although I haven't seen direct comparisons with the Towers, this speaker appears to have improved bass extension and will play just as loud or louder. While the Sierra-2EX may be slightly better in some upper frequency ranges, the LX is clearly the overall better speaker.

I think this is just the result of the technology being able to develop better drivers and Dave being able to find them and put them to use.

It's nice that some people with already great Ascend speakers be able to spend the extra $1500 for pair or more with the center. For those that don't already have their other great speakers, this is a great time to get in. You may be getting the best speaker available for any "reasonable" price.

Of course, would love to get feedback from others that have or had Sierra-2EXs or Towers.

The only possible drawback is to truly realize the FULL capabilities of this speaker, some may have to invest in better amplification. But even at less than full capability, it will probably perform great.

BTW, I have Sierra-2EXs for LR and a Sierra 2 as center. For music, the Sierra-2EXs are ran full range as my subs are more HT oriented. For HT, they're crossed over at 80hz.

I think much has to do with the type of music that is preferred. However, for what the LX do, they seriously do it much better, and for what the EX is better at, the differences aren't that great.

I don't trust my ears all that much with what I hear from the LX, because technically it should not be more spacious sounding than the EX, but to my ears it is. Feedback from 5 unbiased and experienced listeners tomorrow is critical...

[davef]

Hello all,

New here, just registered 24-Mar 2022! DaveF was that Crazy Eddie? I pre-ordered my first AA product, the AA Sierra LX after some recommendations. I've usually done big box store brands, Polk (flagship line only), Martin Logan (Motion line only), Elac AJ speakers, Jamo, QAcoustics, Klipsch, KEF, Totem. I had a dual use PM-10 that was powering my main L/R speaker in a family room HT which can also be switched on independently for 2.0 music with the SA-10.

I recently moved to a new house and am building a dedicated media room HT and pulled the PM-10, I wanted to get something for a small L shaped office 16'x14/11' these look to fit the bill perfectly. The only speaker I own that would be surprising is the Totem Hawk "big sound little box" and very sweet. I'm looking forward to these speakers! Cheers!

Welcome to our family and thanks for placing your pre-order. You should likely be receiving a confirmation from Dina soon.

Yes, it was indeed Crazy Eddie. From Crazy Eddie's, I then moved on to "The Wiz" -- Nobody Beats The Wiz!, if you remember that chain.

[RMW]

I think much has to do with the type of music that is preferred. However, for what the LX do, they seriously do it much better, and for what the EX is better at, the differences aren't that great.

I don't trust my ears all that much with what I hear from the LX, because technically it should not be more spacious sounding than the EX, but to my ears it is. Feedback from 5 unbiased and experienced listeners tomorrow is critical...

Perhaps the more expansive vertical directivity is contributing to the greater sense of spaciousness? Or maybe the lower crossover point is allowing for slightly better integration between the drivers? Or maybe it’s neither of those things. 😉

[High Fidelity]

Dave,

Have you had a chance or will you get a chance to listen to LX mains with a horizontal LX as a center? I'm curious how this setup sounds overall. Also, how dialogue clarity is, particularly compared to EX mains with a horizontal EX center or Luna Duo v2 center.

[davef]

Dave,

Have you had a chance or will you get a chance to listen to LX mains with a horizontal LX as a center? I'm curious how this setup sounds overall. Also, how dialogue clarity is, particularly compared to EX mains with a horizontal EX center or Luna Duo v2 center.

Unfortunately, I am not able to do this with an LX until the first of 2 shipments of woofers and tweeters arrives. We are also now 3/4 sold on these and fulfilling the pre-orders does come first. If we end up with an extra single woofer and tweeter, we will then build a single LX.

[Wade]

Unfortunately, I am not able to do this with an LX until the first of 2 shipments of woofers and tweeters arrives. We are also now 3/4 sold on these and fulfilling the pre-orders does come first. If we end up with an extra single woofer and tweeter, we will then build a single LX.

will the Luna Duo V2 have the LX tweeter and woofers (smaller sized?)? I'm thinking about the LX since I'm mostly HT but I want a centre that matches and can keep up with the LX, the Horizontal is too big for my use but I'm good with something a bit bigger than the Duo.

[mpitogo]

Welcome to our family and thanks for placing your pre-order. You should likely be receiving a confirmation from Dina soon.

Yes, it was indeed Crazy Eddie. From Crazy Eddie's, I then moved on to "The Wiz" -- Nobody Beats The Wiz!, if you remember that chain.

Yes, I remember both. Crazy Eddie was all over TV and I bought my first calculator at the store on Queens Blvd in Elmhurst. I also remember the Wiz. Growing up I used to drool at stereo magazines and in one was Mathew Polk with a lab coat in front of a pair of SDA towers, I was in awe. Years later after college and working, I blew most of my first paycheck on a pair of Polk RT55 and a Yamaha receiver at the Wiz also on Queens Blvd near the mall. And since then itÂ’s been Polk after Polk with a few others sprinkled in, LSi25, LSiM707 and in 2019 I bought the first pair of L800 Sound United sold.

Looking forward to the Sierra LX! I canÂ’t wait to rock out on vintage 80Â’s metal (Def Leopard) that got my into this hobby. Music appreciation of Abba to ZZ Top with anything other than my first boombox.

[davef]

will the Luna Duo V2 have the LX tweeter and woofers (smaller sized?)? I'm thinking about the LX since I'm mostly HT but I want a centre that matches and can keep up with the LX, the Horizontal is too big for my use but I'm good with something a bit bigger than the Duo.

Hi Wade,

No, the V2 version of the Luna and Duo are Klippel NFS optimized versions of the current versions, with updated crossovers and improved damping.

At some point, I will investigate using the LX tweeter in the Duo (and Luna), but this will require extensive crossover changes so this won't be happening anytime soon.

After more listening this evening, and with the very wide dispersion of the LX, the Duo V2 will be an excellent match as a center with the LX.

[davef]

Perhaps the more expansive vertical directivity is contributing to the greater sense of spaciousness? Or maybe the lower crossover point is allowing for slightly better integration between the drivers? Or maybe it’s neither of those things. 😉

I believe it is a combination of both, but not due to a lower crossover point with the LX. Definitely the expansive vertical dispersion of the LX plays a part, but also the overall crossover design. As I believe mentioned in one of the initial posts, much research was spent on examining the overall spherical dispersion of the LX, something that was not possible for us to do without the LX.

However, this is what I am subjectively hearing, I will know more tomorrow when others share their feedback with me, which is critical to the research I am doing.

[ROOSKIE]

So I dont believe my 140w per channel yamaha will struggle powering the LX's at an 8-13' listening distance to reference levels....Dave recommends (on the specs and subsequent posts) I only need roughly 90 watts at these distances to safely hit 96db! Should be good! I was hoping to avoid having to snag a separate amp.

Remember each 3db increase will require double the power. So if you had a speaker hitting 90db with 50 watts at the listening position to hit 93 requires 100watts, 96-200, 99-400, 102-800

You will get room gain which will differ based on room size and set-up. Room gain boosts lower frequencies more and fades into the highs.
This speaker has 83db sensitivity and with room gain maybe a few more, lets use 87db to be generous.
At 3 meters(about 10ft) from 1 speaker, that speakers will be about 10db down(77db)
So in a simplified approach to the power requirement for this speaker.
77db = 1 watt
80db = 2
83db = 4
86db = 8
89db = 16
92db = 32
95db = 64
98db = 128
102db = 256
104db = 512
Since you will have a pair you will not need this much power per channel but I just wanted to show the general idea.

You also have to factor in the speakers actual impedance at the various frequency's being driven and the phase involved.

I think for 10-12ft with 2 speakers your 140 watts will be enough most of the time, but not quite enough to ensure that the amp never clips when playing super loud. You likely won't notice the clipping though unless you are very sensitive and again I suspect this would only happen when peaking at and well over 100db & most likely in harder to drive frequency ranges that also coincide with the specific content having lots going on there.

[mziegler]

I think much has to do with the type of music that is preferred. However, for what the LX do, they seriously do it much better, and for what the EX is better at, the differences aren't that great.

I don't trust my ears all that much with what I hear from the LX, because technically it should not be more spacious sounding than the EX, but to my ears it is. Feedback from 5 unbiased and experienced listeners tomorrow is critical...

I would not say we will be unbiased, with regard to Ascend. I'm looking forward to it.

[billy p]

Mike do you have the EX or S2. Your likely heading down along with Curtis... looking forward to both your impressions.:)

[bkdc]

Dave, is there no way to preorder the LX in a domestic cabinet and pay the cost difference?

[SunByrne]

At some point, I will investigate using the LX tweeter in the Duo (and Luna)

Of course you will—we wouldn't expect anything less. :)

Presumably you'll at least look at the new tweeter in EVERYTHING—the Towers, Lunas, Horizon, etc. We understand that it might not work out for all of them but I will certainly be interested in how this unfolds over the long run.

I will say that I do hope it (eventually) works out for the Duos, though. The wide horizontal dispersion is awesome—I can sit almost anywhere in my living room and they sound good—but I do have to be sitting. Standing up the difference is quite noticeable.

But I shouldn't get carried away on that kind of thing just yet—let's focus on the exciting stuff in the now!

I'm eagerly awaiting to hear what people's impressions are from the listening session at Ascend today.

[Mahawkma]

Dave, is there no way to preorder the LX in a domestic cabinet and pay the cost difference?

Check out post 121 (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7588-Introducing-the-Sierra-LX!!!&p=68224#post68224) in the thread.

[curtis]

Mike do you have the EX or S2. Your likely heading down along with Curtis... looking forward to both your impressions.:)
if Mike=mziegler, he has S2's and is bringing them.

You guys on the east coast, don't stay up late looking for impressions tonight. Hard to post pics from my phone, and takes too much time to type. I may send pics/video to another member, and he can post them.

[billy p]

if Mike=mziegler, he has S2's and is bringing them.

You guys on the east coast, don't stay up late looking for impressions tonight. Hard to post pics from my phone, and takes too much time to type. I may send pics/video to another member, and he can post them.

Nice...and doubly nice it's Saturday tomorrow...lol.
Besides...I'm still on PDT...having just returned from a wk in LV...:)

Ps:@mziegler... apologises for mix up or confusion...:o

[Pogre]

California is aalllllmost close enough for me to consider a drive.

We used to go to the Imperial San Dunes right on the boarder a few times a year and it's only about a 4 hour drive for me... I don't know where AA is in relation to the sand dunes tho. Likely a lot further north. I drove to San Francisco one time. Cali is a big state.

[curtis]

California is aalllllmost close enough for me to consider a drive.

We used to go to the Imperial San Dunes right on the boarder a few times a year and it's only about a 4 hour drive for me... I don't know where AA is in relation to the sand dunes tho. Likely a lot further north. I drove to San Francisco one time. Cali is a big state.
About 4.5 hours west, and a bit north.

[curtis]

Nice...and doubly nice it's Saturday tomorrow...lol.
Besides...I'm still on PDT...having just returned from a wk in LV...:)

Ps:@mziegler... apologises for mix up or confusion...:o
From Vegas, you could have almost done a side trip. Also about 4.5 hours from Ascend.

[curtis]

FWIW...i have a standard set of music I bring to demo any speakers(not just Ascend) on discs, and FLAC files on a USB stick. I just added some more to the stick.

[racrawford65]

Waiting to hear everyone's impressions on the LX's.

Too far for me to drive but one of these days I'd like to get out to Ascend just to meet Dave & Dina in person.

[Pogre]

About 4.5 hours west, and a bit north.

Oof. Yeah makes it twice as far for me then. Just about an over nighter, round trip.

[billy p]

From Vegas, you could have almost done a side trip. Also about 4.5 hours from Ascend.

Interesting...I never thought it would be that close. I've driven to Tucson AZ....to visit family...something to consider...in the future.

[High Fidelity]

I’m curious how dialogue clarity is with the LX vs EX. With my 2.0 EX setup I noticed that dialogue intelligibility is improved over the Sierra 1.

[curtis]

For future reference for anyone...Ascend is about 40 minutes from Disneyland, and about the same to Legoland.

We will be traveling from the South Bay area of Los Angeles, and because the time and Friday traffic, it will probably take us about 1.5 hours. Our carpool is aiming to be there at 3pm.

[racrawford65]

For future reference for anyone...Ascend is about 40 minutes from Disneyland, and about the same to Legoland.

We will be traveling from the South Bay area of Los Angeles, and because the time and Friday traffic, it will probably take us about 1.5 hours. Our carpool is aiming to be there at 3pm.

Drive safe!

[davef]

I’m curious how dialogue clarity is with the LX vs EX. With my 2.0 EX setup I noticed that dialogue intelligibility is improved over the Sierra 1.

I would say dialogue clarity between the LX and EX is the same. Hopefully some of the listeners today will also post comments.

[hometheater]

I would say dialogue clarity between the LX and EX is the same. Hopefully some of the listeners today will also post comments.

This is a bit off topic but what about dialog clarity between the Sierra 2 and Sierra 2 EX. I'm still using the Sierra 2 as center and just wonder if upgrading to the EX or even LX (when available) is worthwhile. I have the EXs as LR.

[djDANNY]

This is a bit off topic but what about dialog clarity between the Sierra 2 and Sierra 2 EX. I'm still using the Sierra 2 as center and just wonder if upgrading to the EX or even LX (when available) is worthwhile. I have the EXs as LR.

I believe you can look at the “contour plot vertical” to get an idea how it will sound when you have the speaker in horizontal position (basically the horizontal contour plot becomes the vertical dispersion and the vertical contour plot becomes your horizontal dispersion). When you look at that, you see that it won’t perform as well from seat to seat in the horizontal configuration versus keeping it in the vertical orientation. You’ll notice what appears to be a big cancellation (due to tweeter woofer interaction) if you’re sitting at about 20 degrees off axis in the 2000-3000hz range (when you look at the vertical contour plot which represents the horizontal dispersion when you have the speaker on its side). If you have the speakers vertical and you look at the horizontal contour plot, you see that the response is much more even throughout all the frequencies. I think this is why Dave in the past says the Sierra 2/2EX in vertical orientation is superior to the Duo is superior to the 2/2EX in horizontal configuration when used for center channel.

It doesn’t look like Dave has posted the horizontal contour plots of the 2EX with the speaker on its side and the RAAL tweeter rotated, so not really easy to compare the differences.

[merrymaid520]

23392340234123422343So here is the mad scientist and the new Tweeter! Stay tuned for more updates (thanks to Curtis)!

[merrymaid520]

23442345

[merrymaid520]

234623472348Let the comparisons begin:). Sierra 2 vs LX

[merrymaid520]

Videos to follow

[davef]

Just a quick note to thank everyone who came down for a listen. I ALWAYS enjoy these types of listening sessions and I was introduced to a lot of new music. It is also very satisfying that I was able to confirm a lot of what I hear with other listeners.

I also want to share that I specifically asked these listeners to be 100% honest with their thoughts and to not sugar coat or exaggerate. One major takeaway, we did a LOT of listening and often at very loud levels (I think at one point we hit 106dB or maybe even 107dB) and my ears feel terrific. No fatigue whatsoever. This metal alloy dome tweeter is remarkable in that regard, very RAAL like in its smoothness,

Rick, if you do read this, thank you again for the CD - this is going on our server immediately!

[RMW]

Just a quick note to thank everyone who came down for a listen. I ALWAYS enjoy these types of listening sessions and I was introduced to a lot of new music. It is also very satisfying that I was able to confirm a lot of what I hear with other listeners.

I also want to share that I specifically asked these listeners to be 100% honest with their thoughts and to not sugar coat or exaggerate. One major takeaway, we did a LOT of listening and often at very loud levels (I think at one point we hit 106dB or maybe even 107dB) and my ears feel terrific. No fatigue whatsoever. This metal alloy dome tweeter is remarkable in that regard, very RAAL like in its smoothness,

Rick, if you do read this, thank you again for the CD - this is going on our server immediately!

Just out of curiosity, what amps do you use in your listening room?

[merrymaid520]

I believe the ATI 1800 amp.

[davef]

Just out of curiosity, what amps do you use in your listening room?

Because we did direct level matched A/B comparisons, we used a 4 channel ATI 1800 that is dedicated to A/B switching. It is rated at 180 watts per channel.

[curtis]

Got home a bit ago, and had something to eat.

I want to thank Dave and Dina for the hospitality. Whenever I visit, I have an enjoyable time, and I am sure the other guys feel the same. It was also good to meet Rick (another Ascend customer) and Joe(Ascend warehouse worker)

I will post impressions tomorrow, but the Sierra-LX is very impressive.

For now I will post a couple of videos that merrymaid didn't/couldn't post.

woofer woofing

https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-zC7G2wn/Ahttps://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-G5m45PF/0/9449c7cf/1280/IMG_0052-1280.mp4 (https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-G5m45PF/A)

[curtis]

20hz sine-wave at about 100 watts slo-mo(don't do this at home!)

https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-czN74sM/Ahttps://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-83LXxnn/0/675a8f74/1280/IMG_0066-1280.mp4 (https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-83LXxnn/A)

[racrawford65]

Curtis - It may be me, but I am unable to open any videos.

[billy p]

Here is the 20hz @100w. Just ridiculous.... excursion.
https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-83LXxnn/A

[petmotel]

Here is the 20hz @100w. Just ridiculous.... excursion.
https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-83LXxnn/A

That's INSANE!!!

[billy p]

That's INSANE!!!


Exactly....even on my funk.... playing "bass I love you"...once you hit those low signals and the excursion properties of your driver kick in...it's scary....even on a sub...lol.

[petmotel]

Exactly....even on my funk.... playing "bass I love you"...once you hit those low signals and the excursion properties of your driver kick in...it's scary....even on a sub...lol.

Dave might have to design deeper grilles for those puppies!

Jay

[curtis]

Curtis - It may be me, but I am unable to open any videos.
Weird...they don't show for me now either. I just edited the posts and added the links.

[billy p]

Curtis what tune is that...sounds very techo funky...nice tempo & beat...those are the sorts of songs I like to demo...fast...punchy...bass and lots of highs

[curtis]

Here is the 20hz @100w. Just ridiculous.... excursion.
https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-83LXxnn/A

Thanks billy!

Don't try this at home!

Same signal in real time, different angle. No mechanical noise/bottoming. Again....don't try this at home. This is on the test system that is used on speakers after they are assembled for packaging/shipping. We were done with our listening/demo, Dave grabs one of the LX's and says "I want to show you guys something."

https://changpics.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-V8kMR4Q/A

[curtis]

Curtis what tune is that...sounds very techo funky...nice tempo & beat...those are the sorts of songs I like to demo...fast...punchy...bass and lots of highs
It wasn't one of my demo songs. The forum member who played it will hopefully chime and let us know, otherwise I will text him.

[curtis]

I also want to add, kind of a disclaimer, that when we were doing the A/B comparisons between the Sierra-LX, Sierra-2, and Sierra-2EX, Dave cautioned us on the levels because the woofer in the 2 and 2EX do not have the power handling capabilities of the LX.

I never looked at the db meter during the comparisons, so I don't know what levels we hit. I do remember hitting 106.7 db while listening to the LX. I was amazed...I think we all were. There was no harshness at all. After the session, nobody had any ear discomfort.

[mziegler]

It's been a few years since I've been to Ascend. Dave and Dina are great hosts, and it is always a wonderful time there. There are few things better than geeking out with great sound and music, often music new to me. It was also great to meet Rick, who reintroduced me to some Coltrane and Paul Chambers, which I started listening to about 42 years ago.

Some impressions. All of us there (Curtis, Rick, Mike) own or owned the Sierra 2, so we were really interested in comparing. I feel like Mike and Curtis will be more coherent and insightful when they offer their impressions. When we arrived the LX was playing, and I had to check to see if the subwoofer was on, which of course it wasn't. We heard so very loud music, and it was clean and non-fatiguing.

The comparisons between the LX and S2 were conclusive: the woofer on the LX is pretty remarkable. While going much deeper, I was amazed by the mid-bass punch and how clean the overall bass was.

It got really interesting when we compared the LX and EX. With the A/B switching it was pretty obvious which speakers were playing, given the differences in bass. One key for me was with complex jazz horns. I sampled Poncho Sanchez's Mama Guela, where a trumpet, sax, and trombone trade solos, then come together. The LX had an edge here -- the sound of each instrument was more distinct. Even more important, the LX plays much larger and spacious (sorry for the lack of technical terms), and it felt more like I was there with the band. I had a similar sense when I put on a cut from a Maria Schneider Orchestra disc. The bass from the baritone trombones really shines on the LX, along with the multiple brass and reed instruments. The EX speakers were, of course, excellent, but the spaciousness and coherence of the LX were more to my liking.

It got interesting when we began to filter out the bass, starting at 80hz, eventually moving to 150hz, then settling on 120hz. You should wait to ask questions of Curtis and Mike if/when they start commenting. To me, the speakers were exceptionally close, and it became very difficult for me to distinguish the speakers. When it came to voices and guitar strings, I could not really tell a difference. The one difference I did notice was that the LX still played "bigger." To me that meant I felt more enveloped by the music (I'm a former English teacher, so forgive my more lyrical language).

I started with Ascend in 2006 with the 340s, moving to the Sierra-1, Sierra -1nrt, Sierra 2. It has been quite a journey. I'm pretty sure I will move to the LX. It will be exciting to see what Dave will develop next with his state-of-the-art testing equipment.

[curtis]

I feel like Mike and Curtis will be more coherent and insightful when they offer their impressions.
Don't expect us to write like mziegler. As he said, he is a former English teacher. :D

[curtis]

Sierra-2EX/Sierra-LX side by side pic. Forgot to send this one to merrymaid.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Ascend-Acoustics-pictures/i-Dm6FbJv/0/e5ffaf61/L/IMG_0063-L.jpg

A forum member mentioned to me that the LX doesn't look as sexy.

[mikesiskav]

Curtis what tune is that...sounds very techo funky...nice tempo & beat...those are the sorts of songs I like to demo...fast...punchy...bass and lots of highs

Hey Billy, the song is Hypnocurrency by Deadmau5 and Rezz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT2No1vusjg&ab_channel=deadmau5

I have to head out of the house for a little while, but I'll be posting my thoughts on the LX later today.

[billy p]

Nice....thanks. Mike...:o

[rdkusher]

did any of you notice any port chuffing when you played bass heavy material?

[djDANNY]

It got interesting when we began to filter out the bass, starting at 80hz, eventually moving to 150hz, then settling on 120hz. You should wait to ask questions of Curtis and Mike if/when they start commenting. To me, the speakers were exceptionally close, and it became very difficult for me to distinguish the speakers. When it came to voices and guitar strings, I could not really tell a difference. The one difference I did notice was that the LX still played "bigger." To me that meant I felt more enveloped by the music (I'm a former English teacher, so forgive my more lyrical language).


This is really good info for those of us with subs. At what frequency setting did the speakers become indistinguishable in terms of the bass? And did you do this test against both the regular 2 and 2EX?

[mziegler]

did any of you notice any port chuffing when you played bass heavy material?

I did not.

[mziegler]

This is really good info for those of us with subs. At what frequency setting did the speakers become indistinguishable in terms of the bass? And did you do this test against both the regular 2 and 2EX?

Only the 2EX. I don't precisely remember, but 120 seemed to be the sweet spot.

Btw, Dave said he would recomment a 50hz crossover for the LX, and he said that sub integration would be better with the LX than 2EX because of gentler roll off.

[curtis]

did any of you notice any port chuffing when you played bass heavy material?
I did not, but also we were listening at a pretty loud level, so maybe that is why we didn't hear any.

When I was taking pictures/video of the speaker, I did put my hand on the port and felt it moving a lot of air, but I didn't hear anything.

Come to think of it, if you watch/listen to the real time video of the 20hz signal at 100 watts, you don't hear the port.

[SunByrne]

Keep it coming, guys!

One of the things that really distinguishes the S2 versions from the S1 versions is, of course, the RAAL tweeter. Besides the wider horizontal dispersion, the other thing the RAAL gives over the older domes is, for lack of a better term, airiness. It's not something I notice with more dense rock mixes, but for more sparse acoustic things (think string quartets) there's an extra level of detail and clarity and superfast transient response that is not present with the S1 and even the S1NrT. (The RAAL-based Philharmonic speakers I own—older Minis, not the newer BMRs, but still using the 64-10—also have this.)

Does the LX produce this?

[curtis]

Only the 2EX. I don't precisely remember, but 120 seemed to be the sweet spot.

Yup...at 80hz the the LX still had more bass information. At 150hz the bass difference was gone. At 120hz, there was still bit more detectable with the LX, at least to my ear.

[rdkusher]

thanks that is what I was hoping to hear.

[Wade]

How big of a jump up is the LX to the Sierra-2 if a sub is in play at 80hz crossover?

[uniquepicture]

I'm always interested in hearing about the new offering from Ascend. Regarding the LX, I'm very interested in the direct comparisons between the LX and the 2EX.

My impression from reading this thread so far is that the LX might be a great choice for those who like to crank it loud, and those who like a lot of bass. But if I were to buy the LX they would replace the 2EX in a system in which I do not play music that loudly. And I'm pretty satisfied with the bass I'm getting in my set-up. For someone who never goes much above 80db volume, what benefits (if any) does the LX have over the 2EX? Keep in mind I love the sparkling highs of the RAAL tweeter (I have the RAAL Towers in my primary set-up and those aren't going anywhere!).

Looking forward to reading more!

[curtis]

How big of a jump up is the LX to the Sierra-2 if a sub is in play at 80hz crossover?
We never did a direct comparison between the two with the filter. We also did not use a sub in any comparison.

Judging by the 2EX vs the LX with the filter(and no sub), the bass information from the Sierra-2 to the LX is pretty far.

I own Sierra-2 and use Rythmik F15HP. Bass integration is a big deal to me. The first things I tried with the LX are most of the tracks I use to test bass and bass integration. I did not feel anything was lacking with the tracks.

Mike played Bela Fleck's "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" at one point on the LX. This is a track that Dr. Hsu uses to demo his subs. It was scary good for a bookshelf speaker.

[curtis]

Keep it coming, guys!

One of the things that really distinguishes the S2 versions from the S1 versions is, of course, the RAAL tweeter. Besides the wider horizontal dispersion, the other thing the RAAL gives over the older domes is, for lack of a better term, airiness. It's not something I notice with more dense rock mixes, but for more sparse acoustic things (think string quartets) there's an extra level of detail and clarity and superfast transient response that is not present with the S1 and even the S1NrT. (The RAAL-based Philharmonic speakers I own—older Minis, not the newer BMRs, but still using the 64-10—also have this.)

Does the LX produce this?
The airiness...

This one was tough for me, as Dave asked me the question directly. I told him I need to listen more, and I still don't think I can say. There were times that I thought the RAAL was more airy, and times I thought the new tweeter was more airy.

Now, there was one specific track that Dave told us to listen very closely, Niks Lofgren "Keith Don't Go". He said to listen to the pick hitting the strings. In this case, on the 2EX you could hear it a bit more clearly than the LX. When I say a bit...you HAVE to be concentrating and really listening. I don't know if that is the tweeter or the woofer doing that work.

[curtis]

Rick, another Ascend owner...he owns the Sierra-2 was also there. I know he reads the forum, but doesn't post. Maybe he will chime is with his thoughts.

He listens to more acoustical music, not loud volumes, no sub, and a 40wpc amp.

[Wade]

Sounds like Dave hit it out of the park with the LX!

[theophile]

...One of the things that really distinguishes the S2 versions from the S1 versions is, of course, the RAAL tweeter. Besides the wider horizontal dispersion, the other thing the RAAL gives over the older domes is, for lack of a better term, airiness. It's not something I notice with more dense rock mixes, but for more sparse acoustic things (think string quartets) there's an extra level of detail and clarity and superfast transient response that is not present with the S1 and even the S1NrT...Does the LX produce this?


...if I were to buy the LX they would replace the 2EX in a system in which I do not play music that loudly. And I'm pretty satisfied with the bass I'm getting in my set-up. For someone who never goes much above 80db volume, what benefits (if any) does the LX have over the 2EX? Keep in mind I love the sparkling highs of the RAAL tweeter (I have the RAAL Towers in my primary set-up and those aren't going anywhere!).

I can identify with SB and UP's comments above! Although my Ascend S-2EX (HP @ 50hz) and powered sub (LP @ 50hz) blend seamlessly, to my ears and in my room this 2.1 arrangement has a Very Balanced full bass bandwidth output with outstanding bass tonality, timbre, tone and speed (<20hz to well beyond >150hz)! Possibly, I just "don't know" what I may be missing in the low-mid bass? However to date, I really enjoy their full superb fidelity in-room performance, especially the Excellent detail, airiness, openness, spaciousness, clarity and resolution of the midrange and high end (RAAL) of the 2EX!

One day (maybe sooner than later), I'll get the LX in-house in order to determine what auditory benefits are obtainable in my dedicated music room and and with my acoustical library genre of music!! :cool:

Ted

[curtis]

I'm always interested in hearing about the new offering from Ascend. Regarding the LX, I'm very interested in the direct comparisons between the LX and the 2EX.

My impression from reading this thread so far is that the LX might be a great choice for those who like to crank it loud, and those who like a lot of bass. But if I were to buy the LX they would replace the 2EX in a system in which I do not play music that loudly. And I'm pretty satisfied with the bass I'm getting in my set-up. For someone who never goes much above 80db volume, what benefits (if any) does the LX have over the 2EX? Keep in mind I love the sparkling highs of the RAAL tweeter (I have the RAAL Towers in my primary set-up and those aren't going anywhere!).

Looking forward to reading more!
Here's what I would say...

For bass, this is what I tell anyone without a sub with any speaker. A good sub, will play bass better than any speaker I know of that doesn't have a built-in powered sub. On top of that, you can place the sub in the better location in your room because the best location will not be the same location as your main speakers.

The bass in the LX is great, and I did not feel like it was lacking with the material I used, but I know there is stuff that it cannot reproduce as well as my Rythmik. I would love to listen to the LX with and without a well integrated sub. (disclaimer: I feel most people do not integrate their subs correctly). The LX had a tactile feel and punch in the bass that the 2EX didn't.

Above 150hz, the only thing I could use more successfully than not to tell the 2EX and the LX apart was the size of the soundstage when I was sitting in the sweet spot. The LX had a bigger soundstage when it was perceptible...never the other way around.

[SunByrne]

The airiness...

This one was tough for me, as Dave asked me the question directly. I told him I need to listen more, and I still don't think I can say. There were times that I thought the RAAL was more airy, and times I thought the new tweeter was more airy.

Thanks for this, cutis. The reason I asked about it is that I sort of suspected that the downside of the LX vs the EX would be airiness.

If it's too close to call on that, but the LX has better bass and wider vertical dispersion, well, that's a really strong case for the LX.

[curtis]

Sounds like Dave hit it out of the park with the LX!
I think the best part is Dave has a new toy/tool, the Klippel NFS.

At heart, he is an engineer(there is some mad scientist in there too). He briefly explained what it could do, and what avenues it opens up (not only for him). As consumers, we will benefit.

BTW, he also mentioned non speaker companies that own a Klippel NFS. Apple owns two of them.

[racrawford65]

thanks, Curtis. I see them now. Best, Robert

[bobola]

Thanks for this, cutis. The reason I asked about it is that I sort of suspected that the downside of the LX vs the EX would be airiness.

If it's too close to call on that, but the LX has better bass and wider vertical dispersion, well, that's a really strong case for the LX.

Actually, provided other listeners report similar impressions, this really suggests the LX might replace the S2-EX in the Ascend lineup. After all, the price points are similar. The only clear advantage for the S2 line might be sensitivity.

But I wonder, having lived with my pair of S2s for more than 7 years, my main impression concerns how well detailed they are from the top to the bottom of their range, that the magic wasn’t just the Raal but the integration with a custom designed mid/woofer to produce an incredibly balanced unit. Has this been achieved in the LX?

[theophile]

Dave,

What is the crossover point/slopes of the LX? :confused:

Ted