Sierra-2EX to Sierra Diamond conversion?

[Mag_Neato]

Ok, just thought I'd throw this out there......

Dave, just in case any Sierra-2EX owners suddenly wish to empty their wallets, would it be possible to simply replace the EX crossover and RAAL tweeter with the SEAS White Diamond tweeter and corresponding crossover, or is there more to it?

If so, what would be a realistic cost for such a kit?

[billy p]

As they say...if you have to ask how much...you likely can't afford it...lol.
All kidding aside it would be nice to know what that figure is and the likelihood of diminishing returns would apply.

[N Boros]

Ok, just thought I'd throw this out there......

Dave, just in case any Sierra-2EX owners suddenly wish to empty their wallets, would it be possible to simply replace the EX crossover and RAAL tweeter with the SEAS White Diamond tweeter and corresponding crossover, or is there more to it?

If so, what would be a realistic cost for such a kit?

This is actually a really good question. I don’t think I would do it, but it would reduce the upgrade cost only needing to do the crossover and very expensive tweeter.

[racrawford65]

As I recall, thought Dave had made a pair of speakers like this for a customer (S2EX woofer, SEAS Diamond Tweeter) and he may have another personal pair. Similarly, I recall that the Diamond tweeter was a few/several thousand dollars, so likely a very costly upgrade even if only the tweeter/cross-over.

[Mag_Neato]

As I recall, thought Dave had made a pair of speakers like this for a customer (S2EX woofer, SEAS Diamond Tweeter) and he may have another personal pair. Similarly, I recall that the Diamond tweeter was a few/several thousand dollars, so likely a very costly upgrade even if only the tweeter/cross-over.

Yes, those tweeters have a very pricey "MSRP", but I wonder what a "real world" cost for a pair plus the crossovers would be. Dave has always been able to work some of his magic with the cost of the upgrades. Of course, these would be extremely low production given the cost, and I'd imagine the crossover, though the cheapest part of this, would have to be somewhat hand made being such low volume. Dave would likely only be able to provide some sort of volume pricing if he could find enough interested buyers who basically committed to the purchase with a large deposit, etc. prior to Dave ordering parts and building the crossovers.

[N Boros]

Yes, those tweeters have a very pricey "MSRP", but I wonder what a "real world" cost for a pair plus the crossovers would be. Dave has always been able to work some of his magic with the cost of the upgrades. Of course, these would be extremely low production given the cost, and I'd imagine the crossover, though the cheapest part of this, would have to be somewhat hand made being such low volume.

The tweeters were $6800 retail when the diamond tweeter development thread started several years ago. It is going to cost more than that.

[petmotel]

The tweeters were $6800 retail when the diamond tweeter development thread started several years ago. It is going to cost more than that.

The problem is that realistically, for the type of music I listen to, I'm not sure I'd prefer it to the ribbon. It would be a pretty long hike for me to visit the Ascend showroom to demo those beauties. Plus, if it turned out to be a must have, I'd have to mortgage the house to refit the full theater complement. :eek:

Jay

[N Boros]

The problem is that realistically, for the type of music I listen to, I'm not sure I'd prefer it to the ribbon. It would be a pretty long hike for me to visit the Ascend showroom to demo those beauties. Plus, if it turned out to be a must have, I'd have to mortgage the house to refit the full theater complement. :eek:

Jay

There are pros and cons to any driver choice. Obviously price would be one con for most people to step up to a diamond tweeter. In terms of performance the diamond tweeter seems to improve upon many performance areas as Dave discussed in the development thread. However I think that horizontal dispersion of the ribbon tweeter will be better. This to me is a big one. It means that more people will get a better listening experience. But even if you are the only person listening or you donÂ’t really care what other people hear all that much, it still is important for a single seat. The wider the horizontal dispersion means that the off axis reflected sound will more closely match the on axis sound. This is a big deal for a room that is not treated acoustically. For rooms that are treated acoustically a speaker that doesnÂ’t have as wide dispersion can have some of that aspect mitigated though.


Along those lines, if you donÂ’t have lots and lots of money to spend on diamond tweeters, room treatments which can cost $3000 to $4000 or less can have a big impact on the perceived sound. Some have said it can be more dramatic than going from an entry level to high end speaker. ThatÂ’s not to say that there is no need for high end speakers. But, the Sierra line of speakers with the Raal ribbon tweeter are already high end speakers, as far as IÂ’m concerned.

[davef]

Ok, just thought I'd throw this out there......

Dave, just in case any Sierra-2EX owners suddenly wish to empty their wallets, would it be possible to simply replace the EX crossover and RAAL tweeter with the SEAS White Diamond tweeter and corresponding crossover, or is there more to it?

If so, what would be a realistic cost for such a kit?

Yes, we can offer this option as a kit. Unfortunately, these tweeters are insanely expensive and because we would be selling the tweeter and not a complete speaker, we would have to charge retail, or at least close to retail. Last time I checked, these tweeters were going for a bit over $6K per pair.

I can, however, include the custom crossover for free :)

[davef]

As I recall, thought Dave had made a pair of speakers like this for a customer (S2EX woofer, SEAS Diamond Tweeter) and he may have another personal pair. Similarly, I recall that the Diamond tweeter was a few/several thousand dollars, so likely a very costly upgrade even if only the tweeter/cross-over.

We actually made several pairs of Sierra-2EX diamonds for customers, and one pair of diamond towers. I think the way the economy is going, the market for such expensive speakers is shrinking.

[racrawford65]

Thanks for clarifying/confirming, Dave.

As it is possible to upgrade the S2EX to the Diamond Tweeter, assuming that it would also be possible with the RAAL Towers, albeit at a substantial cost considering the Tweeter cost - correct?

[curtis]

Yes, we can offer this option as a kit. Unfortunately, these tweeters are insanely expensive and because we would be selling the tweeter and not a complete speaker, we would have to charge retail, or at least close to retail. Last time I checked, these tweeters were going for a bit over $6K per pair.

I can, however, include the custom crossover for free :)
I had thought the woofer in the 2EX was based on the woofer in the Diamond, but not the same.

[N Boros]

Thanks for clarifying/confirming, Dave.

As it is possible to upgrade the S2EX to the Diamond Tweeter, assuming that it would also be possible with the RAAL Towers, albeit at a substantial cost considering the Tweeter cost - correct?

I recall that the standard done tweeter can’t just have the Raal ribbon tweeter swapped in, unless you have some woodworking skills. If the diamond tweeter is the same for the bookshelf and tower, I don’t think it would fit the tower, if it is replacing the Raal ribbon tweeter.

[billy p]

I recall that the standard done tweeter can’t just have the Raal ribbon tweeter swapped in, unless you have some woodworking skills. If the diamond tweeter is the same for the bookshelf and tower, I don’t think it would fit the tower, if it is replacing the Raal ribbon tweeter.

Humm....I thought the custom faceplate for all the tweeters was designed for simple drop in exchange. The lone exception where it's not recommended and wood skills are required is for the 70-20xr due to it size.

[Shazb0t]

We actually made several pairs of Sierra-2EX diamonds for customers, and one pair of diamond towers. I think the way the economy is going, the market for such expensive speakers is shrinking.
I would love to see some high resolution Klippel measurements of one of your speakers with the diamond tweeter. Hopefully someone orders another!

[davef]

I recall that the standard done tweeter can’t just have the Raal ribbon tweeter swapped in, unless you have some woodworking skills. If the diamond tweeter is the same for the bookshelf and tower, I don’t think it would fit the tower, if it is replacing the Raal ribbon tweeter.

Diamond tweeter will fit in the Sierra-2EX and in the Tower, regardless if the tower originally had the dome or the RAAL. However, the crossover will need to be changed to properly accommodate the diamond tweeter (for any of our speakers). Changing the crossover in the tower is complicated.

[davef]

I had thought the woofer in the 2EX was based on the woofer in the Diamond, but not the same.

I actually don't recall if we made any additional changes from the original prototype pair of EX woofers to what we ended up with. We had several rounds of samples.

It is certainly possible though, perhaps a change to the DCR of the voice coil (DC Resistance). I don't think we did, but at this point it is hard to remember.

[davef]

Thanks for clarifying/confirming, Dave.

As it is possible to upgrade the S2EX to the Diamond Tweeter, assuming that it would also be possible with the RAAL Towers, albeit at a substantial cost considering the Tweeter cost - correct?

Yes, it can be done with our towers but for this I recommend letting us handle it. The diamond dome is extremely fragile, and while it is protected by its own grille, a misplaced screw could spell disaster and changing the crossover in the tower is difficult and requires soldering.

[racrawford65]

thanks, Dave. I'm quite happy with the RAALs in the Tower so will likely not do this upgrade, at least anytime soon, since I recently placed an order for a Horizon with RAAL, considering the 2EX upgrade for my S2 and in the processing of buying some land in Brazil (wife's home country).

[RMW]

Would the RAAL 70-20 used in the towers fit the Sierra 2EX? I know the 70-20 has some advantages over the smaller 64-10 variant, like being able to have a lower crossover and lower distortion…if there’s a desire for an “end game” bookshelf that would be more accessible to the masses, maybe that’s a modification that can be made?

[davef]

Would the RAAL 70-20 used in the towers fit the Sierra 2EX? I know the 70-20 has some advantages over the smaller 64-10 variant, like being able to have a lower crossover and lower distortion…if there’s a desire for an “end game” bookshelf that would be more accessible to the masses, maybe that’s a modification that can be made?

We have made this exact speaker for several customers. It requires extensive internal cabinet modifications to fit the huge 70-20, as well as a custom crossover - but it is indeed an "end game" bookshelf speaker at a significantly lower cost than the diamonds.

Actually found a pic on my phone...

2185

[racrawford65]

Sweet!

[Mag_Neato]

Dave,

What would be the main performance gains from having the big RAAL in the monitor? I know it would allow a lower crossover point, and that most likely equates to higher power handling. It would probably provide better midrange clarity since the woofer is not playing as high, right?

[Pogre]

We have made this exact speaker for several customers. It requires extensive internal cabinet modifications to fit the huge 70-20, as well as a custom crossover - but it is indeed an "end game" bookshelf speaker at a significantly lower cost than the diamonds.

Actually found a pic on my phone...

2185

Those look badass! Very nice!

This is fascinating. You guys sent me down a white diamond tweeter rabbit hole and I've been reading up on them. $6k a pair! Phew. How do you like them compared to the RAALs Dave? Do you have a preference or is it a case of hard to quantify with just different strengths and weaknesses?

[davef]

Those look badass! Very nice!

This is fascinating. You guys sent me down a white diamond tweeter rabbit hole and I've been reading up on them. $6k a pair! Phew. How do you like them compared to the RAALs Dave? Do you have a preference or is it a case of hard to quantify with just different strengths and weaknesses?

The 2 speakers are different. The Sierra-2EX diamonds do better with very complex passages, where there are a lot of instruments playing at the same time. The RAAL's have wider horizontal dispersion.

Dynamically speaking, the diamond tweeter has the edge and there is a unique addictive characteristic to the diamonds with regard to transparency. A very clean and effortless presentation, these don't sound like any other dome tweeters that have crossed my path.

We keep 1 pair of diamond tweeters in stock.

[Pogre]

We keep 1 pair of diamond tweeters in stock.

"I sleep with them under my pillow..."

:p

Sounds like they're pretty amazing but obviously outside of most budgets. I don't blame you for not keeping multiples on hand.

[racrawford65]

"I sleep with them under my pillow..."

:p



LOL.. he's got a better tooth fairy then me :-(

[Pogre]

LOL.. he's got a better tooth fairy then me :-(

Ha! Yeah, unfortunately you have to give up all of your teeth if you wanna wake up to a pair of diamond tweeters under your pillow! :p

[Shazb0t]

The 2 speakers are different. The Sierra-2EX diamonds do better with very complex passages, where there are a lot of instruments playing at the same time.
Curious, what property of a tweeter do you believe is responsible for this described audio phenomenon?

[PersonalTriumph]

Could we get a moissanite or cubic zirconia tweeter? Would that be more cost effective? :D

[davef]

Curious, what property of a tweeter do you believe is responsible for this described audio phenomenon?

This is a good question, and my experience with this is that it is directly related to the piston range of the driver. With a dome that is as stiff as a diamond dome, every audible frequency (to us humans) will be within its piston range. Very stiff domes have this advantage, but - stiff domes will have a bad breakup mode typically in the range of human hearing (often called ringing).

With the SEAS diamond dome, it is so stiff that it pushes the breakup mode out to a remarkable 60kHz - well out of the range of our hearing. A well designed pure Be dome (don't confuse this with a Be alloy like AlBe) will typically push the breakup mode into the high 20's or lower 30 kHz.

Testing this is complicated and requires two-tone or even three-tone tests. Since the Klippel NFS is only capable of hitting a speaker with a single tone at a single time, these types of differences will never show up.

[davef]

Dave,

What would be the main performance gains from having the big RAAL in the monitor? I know it would allow a lower crossover point, and that most likely equates to higher power handling. It would probably provide better midrange clarity since the woofer is not playing as high, right?

I’m sorry I missed this – lots of information to share regarding this question we get quite often. Might as well provide full detail here so it can be referenced when needed.

Nobody on this planet has more experience with these 2 tweeters than I do. In fact, the smaller RAAL (the 64-10x) wouldn’t exist without our partnership with RAAL in both the design and overall idea for this tweeter. As good as this tweeter is (and it is exceptional) – it was designed to be a lower priced RAAL, to allow more mainstream listeners to experience this level of performance in more affordable products. This goal was certainly achieved with the release of our Sierra-2 (the speaker this tweeter was originally designed for)

The RAAL 70-20xram is an entirely different beast. This ribbon has over twice the radiating surface area of the 64-10, and that combined with the huge rear chamber allows the 70-20xram to be crossed at a full octave lower compared to the 64-10. Besides the directivity advantages of lower tweeter crossover points, crossing lower allows more of the critical upper midrange / lower treble response to be handled by the near massless ribbon, rather than a midrange for which this frequency range would typically be outside of a mid’s piston range.

One of the most critical areas of tweeter design is how to deal with the rear wave. For any tweeter, including ribbons – the soundwave producing diaphragm resonates, producing the same waves towards the back as towards the front. These rear waves are out of phase with the front waves and must be damped/absorbed so that they do not come back out the front. The more of this rear energy that is damped, the more transparent and detailed the tweeter is. In the case of the 70-20xram, it has a massive damping chamber, and the critical out-of-phase energy is completely absorbed.

Here is a comparison:

2257

2258


This allows the 70-20 to be more transparent sounding, with greater detail and a more linear overall frequency response, both on-axis and off-axis.

The ribbon diaphragm itself in the 70-20xram is also not the same as what is used in the 64-10. The 70-20 diaphragm itself is heavily damped, for which the 64-10 is not. I am under an NDA not to publicly disclose the details of this, but the mechanical differences are considerable and unique to the 70-20. This allows the 70-20 to better handle transients and distortion. It basically makes the 70-20 as durable as any dome tweeter by damping transverse waves that would otherwise damage the 64-10 tweeter (a clipping amplifier for example)

The 70-20xram also has less than half the distortion at 90dB and higher (spl measured at 1 meter) in the usable frequency range of the 64-10 (~3500Hz – 20kHz) . Here are some measurements:

2259

2260

The 70-20 also has significantly higher power handling capabilities combined with much higher max SPL. Regardless of crossover point, the 64-10 is not appropriate if you are looking for high SPL capabilities.

Both tweeters have exceptionally wide and linear horizontal dispersion:

Here are the contour plots:

2261

2262

With the 70-20, you can see dispersion starts to slightly narrow compared to the 64-10 starting at about 8kHz. While the 64-10 does have wider horizontal dispersion from 8kHz on up, with the latest accepted research – this type of response is less preferred as we generally want a slightly decreasing upper high frequency response as we get further off-axis. As long as this narrowing is linear, this translates to a less bright in-room response. This is easier to “see” in comparing the estimated in-room response of both tweeters.

2263

2264

Notice the 70-20xram’s estimated in-room response has a gentle and linear high frequency roll off starting at about 8kHz, while the 64-10x is nearly flat, with a slight roll off starting at 11kHz and then flattening out. With an in-room response, this flattening leads to a “brighter” sound.

You can see further details of this in the horizontal polar response comparison. Note, the 70-20 is as close to having as perfect of a polar response in any tweeter I have ever come across. As off-axis angle increases, the response closely follows the contour of the previous angle. While the 64-10x is good, there are some disparities, including a small amount of “bloom” where energy actually starts to increase at off-axis angles (10kHz range).

2265

2266

And finally, with a “true” ribbon tweeter like a RAAL, the only moving mass is the actual radiating diaphragm (the ribbon). There is no voice coil such that the ribbon is the actual conductor of the source signal. Because of this, a true ribbon will present a dead short to the amplifier and a transformer must be used to compensate. The 70-20xram we use has an advanced amorphous core transformer (the “am” in the model number) as compared to the ferrite core transformer used in the 64-10. All transformers have losses and saturation issues but "am" core transformers have considerably less. This translates to improved overall resolution and dynamics in the 70-20.

As good as the 64-10 ribbon is, the custom 70-20xram we use in our tower and horizon is better in every category, and it should be as it costs over 4x as much. It is simply one of the best tweeters out there at any possible price point.


*Important Note: all measurements above taken with each tweeter mounted in the same test cabinet and tested with a frequency rage of 3.5kHz to 20kHz, with no high pass filtering / no crossover.

[theophile]

Dave,

Thanks for the detailed pics, information, and Klippel charts displaying the performance gains by substituting the RAAL 70-20XRAM for the 64-10 in a Sierra-2EX, Very Interesting!! Would that then be called a "Sierra 3-EX"?!! :cool:

Curious, what would a Sierra EX with the RAAL 70-20XRAM cost...Inquiring minds would like to know (SWAG method calculation roughly 25% less than the RAAL Towers)?!? :rolleyes:

Ted

[Mag_Neato]

Ted,

Are you asking about purchasing a brand new pair of custom RAAL 70-20 Sierra-EX's, or the cost of having Ascend customize an existing pair of EX's?

I know those 70-20's are roughly $700/ea. not accounting for any recent price hikes, then you have a custom crossover and the extensive cabinet mods.

[RMW]

I don’t want to speculate, but we know the 70-20 is a $700 premium over the NRT on the towers, so I would think it would be in that neighborhood…maybe making them in the $2200-$2600 range?

Personally I’d love for Dave to add these as a standard offering as I think there’s a market for it. For a long time $1500-2000 has been the “entry” point for real hi-fi. But over the last year we’ve seen traditional offerings go higher (e.g., Kef R3, Revel M106, etc.), so I think people are willing to pay a bit more.

[Mag_Neato]

I don’t want to speculate, but we know the 70-20 is a $700 premium over the NRT on the towers, so I would think it would be in that neighborhood…maybe making them in the $2200-$2600 range?

Personally I’d love for Dave to add these as a standard offering as I think there’s a market for it. For a long time $1500-2000 has been the “entry” point for real hi-fi. But over the last year we’ve seen traditional offerings go higher (e.g., Kef R3, Revel M106, etc.), so I think people are willing to pay a bit more.

Honestly, I don't know how Dave can still hold the RAAL upgrade on the towers at only $700, but then I do not have insight to his actual costs.

[billy p]

I don’t want to speculate, but we know the 70-20 is a $700 premium over the NRT on the towers, so I would think it would be in that neighborhood…maybe making them in the $2200-$2600 range?

Personally I’d love for Dave to add these as a standard offering as I think there’s a market for it. For a long time $1500-2000 has been the “entry” point for real hi-fi. But over the last year we’ve seen traditional offerings go higher (e.g., Kef R3, Revel M106, etc.), so I think people are willing to pay a bit more.

I suppose in retrospect if he goes that way it would be good business and cut some costs.

I know one thing for certain I am very happy standing on middle ground with nrt domes LR and RAAL for my center channel.

I know folks marvel at the RAAL for width and depth of soundstage...but for me and I've thought long and hard about this...I doubt me spending upwards of an additional 1k(factoring in shipping + RAAL) would benefit me for a more heavily geared HT application vs. music...the domes give me added bite for watching or streaming action flicks and the clearity, detail of the horizon for dramas and intelligibility in doing so at any volume.

[theophile]

Ted,

Are you asking about purchasing a brand new pair of custom RAAL 70-20 Sierra-EX's, or the cost of having Ascend customize an existing pair of EX's?

I know those 70-20's are roughly $700/ea. not accounting for any recent price hikes, then you have a custom crossover and the extensive cabinet mods.

Ed,

My question reference...a New "Sierra-3EX" model! ;)

I figure compared to the RAAL Tower pair, -$300 (smaller Sierra Cabinets) and -$300 (no mid-ranges) and -$100 (smaller x-overs) and -$100 less shipping cost...(with RAAL and single EX mid/woofer being a wash), between a 20% to 25% lower to-your-door savings over the RAAL Towers!?!

Dave will have to verify how badly off my speculation is! :o

Ted

[Mag_Neato]

Ed,

My question reference...a New "Sierra-3EX" model! ;)

I figure compared to the RAAL Tower pair, -$300 (smaller Sierra Cabinets) and -$300 (no mid-ranges) and -$100 (smaller x-overs) and -$100 less shipping cost...(with RAAL and single EX mid/woofer being a wash), between a 20% to 25% lower to-your-door savings over the RAAL Towers!?!

Dave will have to verify how badly off my speculation is! :o

Ted

I would be curious what that would cost as well. Although the tower's mid would not be a cost, I'm thinking that the EX woofer may cost more than both the tower's woofers combined.

[billy p]

I would be curious what that would cost as well. Although the tower's mid would not be a cost, I'm thinking that the EX woofer may cost more than both the tower's woofers combined.

Iirc...that driver was designed specifically for the S2ex to work alongside with the smaller 64-10 RAAL..in doing so making the S2 redundant.

I also recall or reading that the curv mid driver would not benefit the towers greatly because of the larger and more internal volume with the tower and use of the 70-20xr.

A newer tower would be very intriguing idea...thou.

[Mag_Neato]

Iirc...that driver was designed specifically for the S2ex to work alongside with the smaller 64-10 RAAL..in doing so making the S2 redundant.

I also recall or reading that the curv mid driver would not benefit the towers greatly because of the larger and more internal volume with the tower and use of the 70-20xr.

A newer tower would be very intriguing idea...thou.

Actually, the EX woofer was developed to work specifically with the SEAS White Diamond tweeter, but after hearing of the incredible performance it offered all of us Sierra-2 owners asked about its use with the S2 RAAL, and thus Dave created a crossover to allow that. That is how the Sierra-2EX was born.

[theophile]

I would be curious what that would cost as well. Although the tower's mid would not be a cost, I'm thinking that the EX woofer may cost more than both the tower's woofers combined.

Agreed Ed! I also believe the 2EX Curv mid/woofer (designed to partner with the Seas Diamond Tweeter in the S2di) is at least equal cost to the two tower woofers, thus a wash in a RAAL Tower/3EX comparison! ;)

Ted

[billy p]

Right...sorry for the confusion...that new curv though starting my gears thinking of what if Dave somehow finds a better alternative to an already well designed and throughout mid bass unit in the current towers.

[davef]

Dave,

Thanks for the detailed pics, information, and Klippel charts displaying the performance gains by substituting the RAAL 70-20XRAM for the 64-10 in a Sierra-2EX, Very Interesting!! Would that then be called a "Sierra 3-EX"?!! :cool:

Curious, what would a Sierra EX with the RAAL 70-20XRAM cost...Inquiring minds would like to know (SWAG method calculation roughly 25% less than the RAAL Towers)?!? :rolleyes:

Ted

RAAL prices continue to rise (like everything else) and shipping costs are crazy right now. Looking at the numbers and assuming we keep to our absurdly low profit margins, we would be looking at somewhere between $2800 - 3K per pair.

[davef]

Agreed Ed! I also believe the 2EX Curv mid/woofer (designed to partner with the Seas Diamond Tweeter in the S2di) is at least equal cost to the two tower woofers, thus a wash in a RAAL Tower/3EX comparison! ;)

Ted

Not quite, the Sierra-2EX woofer costs us more in the range of 4 of the tower bass woofers! If sold retail, it would be in the $350-$450 range....

[davef]

Honestly, I don't know how Dave can still hold the RAAL upgrade on the towers at only $700, but then I do not have insight to his actual costs.

At this point, we really can't. The only reason we haven't increased pricing is due to our backorder. Once we are caught up, we absolutely must increase this pricing. RAAL has increased pricing multiple times now, add to that increased freight prices and the dollar's recent falling against the Euro, we are left with no choice.

[Mag_Neato]

RAAL prices continue to rise (like everything else) and shipping costs are crazy right now. Looking at the numbers and assuming we keep to our absurdly low profit margins, we would be looking at somewhere between $2800 - 3K per pair.

Looks like it would not be very cost effective at this point with current RAAL Tower pricing. For a few hundred dollars more you can still get the towers until the pricing needs to be adjusted.

I had that price range in the back of my mind as it seemed to make sense, but was also thinking it could not be that close to the tower pricing. Guess my hunch was accurate.

[Mag_Neato]

Not quite, the Sierra-2EX woofer costs us more in the range of 4 of the tower bass woofers! If sold retail, it would be in the $350-$450 range....

Wow! I am often surprised at the real world cost of the components you use, Dave, and underestimate the incredible purchasing leverage you enjoy due to your strong relationships with your vendors.

[theophile]

We have made this exact speaker for several customers. It requires extensive internal cabinet modifications to fit the huge 70-20, as well as a custom crossover - but it is indeed an "end game" bookshelf speaker at a significantly lower cost than the diamonds...


RAAL prices continue to rise (like everything else) and shipping costs are crazy right now. Looking at the numbers and assuming we keep to our absurdly low profit margins, we would be looking at somewhere between $2800 - 3K per pair.

Thanks for the clarifications Dave, very understandable! Still, a "Sierra-3EX" would easily be a market top end performing stand monitor (and around 63% less than the Sierra-2di)!!! :D

Ted

[davef]

Looks like it would not be very cost effective at this point with current RAAL Tower pricing. For a few hundred dollars more you can still get the towers until the pricing needs to be adjusted.

I had that price range in the back of my mind as it seemed to make sense, but was also thinking it could not be that close to the tower pricing. Guess my hunch was accurate.

The Salk Silk (stock 70-20xr + 5 1/2" Scan Illuminator woofer) is now retailing for $3900 /pair. Our version would use our custom 70-20xram (am = amorphous core transformer, quite a bit more expensive) + Our 6" EX woofer which is basically the direct competitor and very similar pricing to the Scan Illuminator series) + our bamboo cabinet vs MDF+Veneer cabinet. Price I quoted for our version of this speaker is still quite a bargain ;)

[N Boros]

RAAL prices continue to rise (like everything else) and shipping costs are crazy right now. Looking at the numbers and assuming we keep to our absurdly low profit margins, we would be looking at somewhere between $2800 - 3K per pair.

Would this outperform the Sierra towers with the RAAL ribbon tweeter in any areas? Or would this bookshelf speaker be for those that want a bit more performance than the Sierra 2EX, but still need the form factor of a bookshelf speaker?

[theophile]

The Salk Silk (stock 70-20xr + 5 1/2" Scan Illuminator woofer) is now retailing for $3900 /pair. Our version would use our custom 70-20xram (am = amorphous core transformer, quite a bit more expensive) + Our 6" EX woofer which is basically the direct competitor and very similar pricing to the Scan Illuminator series) + our bamboo cabinet vs MDF+Veneer cabinet. Price I quoted for our version of this speaker is still quite a bargain ;)

Absolutely Dave! Having heard, owned and experienced the last 3 Sierra iterations these past 10 years, I've no doubt it (a Sierra-3EX ?) would be as you stated in post #21, [...indeed an "end game" bookshelf speaker]!!! :cool:

Ted

[RMW]

The Salk Silk (stock 70-20xr + 5 1/2" Scan Illuminator woofer) is now retailing for $3900 /pair. Our version would use our custom 70-20xram (am = amorphous core transformer, quite a bit more expensive) + Our 6" EX woofer which is basically the direct competitor and very similar pricing to the Scan Illuminator series) + our bamboo cabinet vs MDF+Veneer cabinet. Price I quoted for our version of this speaker is still quite a bargain ;)

Yeah even at $2800-$3000 I think there would still be interest. I imagine it would favor well against something like the Revel M126BE which retails for $4400/pair.

[davef]

Yeah even at $2800-$3000 I think there would still be interest. I imagine it would favor well against something like the Revel M126BE which retails for $4400/pair.

I am confident it would outperform the M126BE in many aspects. There is one problem I need to find a solution to in order to offer this as a standard product. With our current cabinets and with the massive size of the 70-20, it doesn't fit into the cutout without hitting the port tube, which requires us to make modifications. For a standard product, modifications like this become problematic. I am going to add this to my ToDo list....

[davef]

Would this outperform the Sierra towers with the RAAL ribbon tweeter in any areas? Or would this bookshelf speaker be for those that want a bit more performance than the Sierra 2EX, but still need the form factor of a bookshelf speaker?

From a technical standpoint, no. However, there are many consumers who prefer the much smaller size and coherency of a 2-way bookshelf speaker.

[Mag_Neato]

The Salk Silk (stock 70-20xr + 5 1/2" Scan Illuminator woofer) is now retailing for $3900 /pair. Our version would use our custom 70-20xram (am = amorphous core transformer, quite a bit more expensive) + Our 6" EX woofer which is basically the direct competitor and very similar pricing to the Scan Illuminator series) + our bamboo cabinet vs MDF+Veneer cabinet. Price I quoted for our version of this speaker is still quite a bargain ;)

No doubt Dave, was just comparing them to the towers if someone were on the fence due to cost. I have no doubt they would compare favorably to the Silk and other offerings in that price range as far as monitor speakers go.

[davef]

(and around 63% less than the Sierra-2di)!!! :D

Ted

I have had our Klippel NFS working overtime for a while now on evaluating the SEAS Diamond Tweeter to try and determine what give it such a unique and transparent sound....

[theophile]

I have had our Klippel NFS working overtime for a while now on evaluating the SEAS Diamond Tweeter to try and determine what give it such a unique and transparent sound....

Hope the Klippel NFS measurements can validate criteria that would pinpoint "why" the diamond sounds so good!! :cool:

[petmotel]

I am confident it would outperform the M126BE in many aspects. There is one problem I need to find a solution to in order to offer this as a standard product. With our current cabinets and with the massive size of the 70-20, it doesn't fit into the cutout without hitting the port tube, which requires us to make modifications. For a standard product, modifications like this become problematic. I am going to add this to my ToDo list....

Along with the design considerations, if this becomes a product that becomes an official offering, it's going to need a name. Time for a name the new speaker thread, maybe something like a Sierra-2 Summit?

Jay

[MusicHead]

It does have a nice ring to it: "Ascend to the (Sierra-2) Summit" 😁

[Mag_Neato]

Considering this to be an "End Game" speaker using the big boy RAAL, it should not share the "-2" designation. I agree..... it should carry the "-3" designation. That way it definitely separates it from the "-2" series. Also, if Dave ever comes out with another upgrade for the "-2EX" he could use the "Summit" designation or something similar. Upgrades for the "-3" could use similar designations, such as Summit, but having the "-3" vs. "-2" would keep them identifiable. Also, as the cabinet/porting will be different to accommodate the big RAAL the different number designation could help keep that confusion down.

[theophile]

Agree with Ed...let the End Game Sierra-3 Begin(is that okay, Dave?)!:rolleyes:

Ted

[Mag_Neato]

Will this madness ever end? :cool:

[theophile]

Will this madness ever end? :cool:

YES...when hell freezes over! ;)

[billy p]

One of the hard lessons to learn is buy once cry once. I knew, after I received my towers no moving forward...unless I hit 7.5-10k barrier for new towers.
Only thing that will prompt me to move up is if some way Dave's finds the time and improves the towers mids and bass units.

[hometheater]

With all this discussion about creating a souped up version of the Sierra-2EX with the 70-20 , what would be the thoughts about a cost reduced version of the Sierra Towers with just the 64-10? For those that don't listen super loud but would like the benefits of the midrange driver.

Would this cost even less than the standard Tower with the NRT tweeter?

Thanks!

[davef]

With all this discussion about creating a souped up version of the Sierra-2EX with the 70-20 , what would be the thoughts about a cost reduced version of the Sierra Towers with just the 64-10? For those that don't listen super loud but would like the benefits of the midrange driver.

Would this cost even less than the standard Tower with the NRT tweeter?

Thanks!

I have been thinking about this for sometime now and we can implement it as a lower priced option compared to the 70-20xram ribbon. Our landed cost for our NrT dome and the 64-10x are similar, so retail pricing of a 64-10x version of our tower would basically be the same as the NrT version. Personally, I don't think the cost savings would be worth it - consumers really like to turn the volume up loud with towers.

[davef]

Considering this to be an "End Game" speaker using the big boy RAAL, it should not share the "-2" designation. I agree..... it should carry the "-3" designation. That way it definitely separates it from the "-2" series. Also, if Dave ever comes out with another upgrade for the "-2EX" he could use the "Summit" designation or something similar. Upgrades for the "-3" could use similar designations, such as Summit, but having the "-3" vs. "-2" would keep them identifiable. Also, as the cabinet/porting will be different to accommodate the big RAAL the different number designation could help keep that confusion down.

I really like that, has a good ring to it. The Sierra Summit.... hmmm... :)

[RandomName]

RAAL prices continue to rise (like everything else) and shipping costs are crazy right now. Looking at the numbers and assuming we keep to our absurdly low profit margins, we would be looking at somewhere between $2800 - 3K per pair.

How much more pain would I be in for if I wanted satin white domestic cabs (like my sierra-2s) with magnets. Any chance it’s more viable since the cabinet gets modified anyway? Or is it all done post exterior finish?

I’ve been dying to get the magnet faced cabs for my bookshelves, but it’s soooo much more than just doing the 2EX upgrade… but if we are talking about swapping to better tweeters to match my towers and it already requires a cabinet mod… somehow it’s easier to sell in my head.

The sad part is I’d still totally upgrade my 2s to 2EX anyway, there would be sooo many different ways to set it up. I could use em as dedicated/b speakers for HT to be paired with subs and do towers just for music, though that’s wasteful, I could rotate one tweeter and try it as a center even if I hate that lopsided look. I could try em as wides. Just so many options.

I’ve also been contemplating lunas and/or duos for front/rear heights but can’t decide if that would make the room feel oppressing lol. (Every speaker would be maybe 8-10ft from me at best lol, well maybe the wides would make it to 12/14).

But figuring out the next upgrade for my Sierra-2s (and adding Luna LCR center) are at the top of my “critical HT upgrades” list.

I wonder if shipping will ever go back down >_<. I could be way off on the pricing, but in my head I almost feel like you could fly them here to Seattle for less than shipping them these days lolol.

[Mag_Neato]

I really like that, has a good ring to it. The Sierra Summit.... hmmm... :)

Dave, here's another thought.....

You could simply give the big RAAL monitor its own name, say, Ascend Everest!

[petmotel]

I have been thinking about this for sometime now and we can implement it as a lower priced option compared to the 70-20xram ribbon. Our landed cost for our NrT dome and the 64-10x are similar, so retail pricing of a 64-10x version of our tower would basically be the same as the NrT version. Personally, I don't think the cost savings would be worth it - consumers really like to turn the volume up loud with towers.

Speaking of sensitivity, how does a Sierra Summit stack up to a 2EX in that area? Would a Summit be capable of more volume due to the capabilty of the big RAAL?

Jay

[Mag_Neato]

Speaking of sensitivity, how does a Sierra Summit stack up to a 2EX in that area? Would a Summit be capable of more volume due to the capabilty of the big RAAL?

Jay
Read this post for the differences between RAALs
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7479-Sierra-2EX-to-Sierra-Diamond-conversion&p=67453#post67453

[theophile]

Speaking of sensitivity, how does a Sierra Summit stack up to a 2EX in that area? Would a Summit be capable of more volume due to the capabilty of the big RAAL?

Jay

Jay,

Well in the Sierra2di, the EX woofer/mid was designed to keep up with the world-class Seas Diamond Tweeter's capabilities! IMO, I'd expect no less of the EX woofer in keeping up with the RAAL 70-20XRAM capabilities! Final Answer in Dave's Court!;)

Ted

[petmotel]

Read this post for the differences between RAALs
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?7479-Sierra-2EX-to-Sierra-Diamond-conversion&p=67453#post67453

"The 70-20 also has significantly higher power handling capabilities combined with much higher max SPL."

From that post is the above quote, which is why I'm wondering about the max SPL, and sensitivity of the speaker as a whole.

Jay

[davef]

How much more pain would I be in for if I wanted satin white domestic cabs (like my sierra-2s) with magnets. Any chance it’s more viable since the cabinet gets modified anyway? Or is it all done post exterior finish?

I’ve been dying to get the magnet faced cabs for my bookshelves, but it’s soooo much more than just doing the 2EX upgrade… but if we are talking about swapping to better tweeters to match my towers and it already requires a cabinet mod… somehow it’s easier to sell in my head.

The sad part is I’d still totally upgrade my 2s to 2EX anyway, there would be sooo many different ways to set it up. I could use em as dedicated/b speakers for HT to be paired with subs and do towers just for music, though that’s wasteful, I could rotate one tweeter and try it as a center even if I hate that lopsided look. I could try em as wides. Just so many options.

I’ve also been contemplating lunas and/or duos for front/rear heights but can’t decide if that would make the room feel oppressing lol. (Every speaker would be maybe 8-10ft from me at best lol, well maybe the wides would make it to 12/14).

But figuring out the next upgrade for my Sierra-2s (and adding Luna LCR center) are at the top of my “critical HT upgrades” list.

I wonder if shipping will ever go back down >_<. I could be way off on the pricing, but in my head I almost feel like you could fly them here to Seattle for less than shipping them these days lolol.

Please contact us via email to discuss this, thanks!

[davef]

Speaking of sensitivity, how does a Sierra Summit stack up to a 2EX in that area? Would a Summit be capable of more volume due to the capabilty of the big RAAL?

Jay

For nearly all speakers, sensitivity will be determined by the woofer. Tweeters are inherently higher efficiency transducers compared to a woofer. With that in mind, a Summit would have the same sensitivity rating as the S2 EX.

As far as max SPL, there are many variables to this. If running the speakers crossed at 80Hz, the Summit would be capable of considerably higher SPL's. If running full range, it then all depends on the source material as the excursion of the EX woofer would then be the primary factor.

[Mag_Neato]

For nearly all speakers, sensitivity will be determined by the woofer. Tweeters are inherently higher efficiency transducers compared to a woofer. With that in mind, a Summit would have the same sensitivity rating as the S2 EX.

As far as max SPL, there are many variables to this. If running the speakers crossed at 80Hz, the Summit would be capable of considerably higher SPL's. If running full range, it then all depends on the source material as the excursion of the EX woofer would then be the primary factor.

Dave, aside from the ability to play louder given an 80hz, etc. crossover, what sonic qualities at sane listening levels set the 70-20 apart from the 64-10? You mentioned the lower crossover to allow some of the midrange to be handled by the 70-20, and the slight drop off in off axis response vs the 64-10 that can seem bright. In your listening experience what really strikes you and says "Hey, I'm the 70-20, not my little bro!"?

[theophile]

Dave, aside from the ability to play louder given an 80hz, etc. crossover, what sonic qualities at sane listening levels set the 70-20 apart from the 64-10? You mentioned the lower crossover to allow some of the midrange to be handled by the 70-20, and the slight drop off in off axis response vs the 64-10 that can seem bright. In your listening experience what really strikes you and says "Hey, I'm the 70-20, not my little bro!"?

Good question Ed! I'm also curious, as I really feel I'm Missing NOTHING in my current Sierra-2EX 2.1 dedicated music room system (HP & LP set at 50Hz)! ;)

Ted

[Mag_Neato]

Good question Ed! I'm also curious, as I really feel I'm Missing NOTHING in my current Sierra-2EX 2.1 dedicated music room system (HP & LP set at 50Hz)! ;)

Ted

Ted, my questions are mostly an attempt at justifying me spending that kind of money to chase the golden ring, and if it would be a good return on my investment. I also ask some of these questions just so the info is available to anyone who is also contemplating this upgrade. I hope I don't make Dave nuts by asking some of these, which I'm sure seem redundant at times, but this is a substantial pill to swallow financially...... at least for some of us!

[theophile]

Ted, my questions are mostly an attempt at justifying me spending that kind of money to chase the golden ring, and if it would be a good return on my investment. I also ask some of these questions just so the info is available to anyone who is also contemplating this upgrade. I hope I don't make Dave nuts by asking some of these, which I'm sure seem redundant at times, but this is a substantial pill to swallow financially...... at least for some of us!

I hear you Ed, and understand...we're paddling the same canoe!

Because of my stereo 2.1 (not home theater) music listening habits (80-85db continuous), genre of musical taste (99% acoustical) and 2EX high passed at 50Hz and up (allows extra amp headroom), I'm nor sure I'd hear the benefits of mating the EX w/the 70-20XRAM in my setup!?! :confused:

For those who have the need, I've no doubt that the 70-20XRAM would get very close to the 2di diamond tweeter in output, agility and dynamics...but at a greatly reduced investment cost!! :D

Ted

[davef]

Dave, aside from the ability to play louder given an 80hz, etc. crossover, what sonic qualities at sane listening levels set the 70-20 apart from the 64-10? You mentioned the lower crossover to allow some of the midrange to be handled by the 70-20, and the slight drop off in off axis response vs the 64-10 that can seem bright. In your listening experience what really strikes you and says "Hey, I'm the 70-20, not my little bro!"?

This is purely from memory, but the 70-20 version was smoother and more transparent sounding to my ear. Not by a large margin though. I will have to make a pair of these, and now with having our own Klippel NFS, design a fully optimized crossover based on the resolution the NFS is capable of.