Another surround speaker question - what will pair well with Tower with RAAL option?

[elan120]

Hello everyone, I am new to this forum, but am very interested in getting a pair of Tower with RAAL tweeter option. This is going to be used in a 5.1 setup with the Horizon as center, but will likely be used more in 2 channel music listening. Room is about 12x16x8, where the listening position will be about 7 to 8 ft from the main speakers, and the main speaker will be about 5.5 to 6 ft apart. The question is, what will be a good choice for the two surround speakers that will be on stands, placed behind the listening position close to either cornor of the back wall?

TIA for all recommendations.

[racrawford65]

Depends on your budget for the surrounds.

The HTM200's will work really well. I was using these as surrounds with S2 before I upgraded to the Towers with RAAL for my fronts. Still using the HTM's for ATMOS speakers and moved the S2 to surround duty. You can even wall mount the HTMs if you wanted as no rear port.

Luna or S2/S2EX would be great options, as well, albeit more expensive.

[natetg57]

Depends on your budget for the surrounds.

The HTM200's will work really well. I was using these as surrounds with S2 before I upgraded to the Towers with RAAL for my fronts. Still using the HTM's for ATMOS speakers and moved the S2 to surround duty. You can even wall mount the HTMs if you wanted as no rear port.

Luna or S2/S2EX would be great options, as well, albeit more expensive.

I agree. If you're eventually going to get into multichannel music than I think a pair of Sierra-2s or Lunas are well worth it.

[elan120]

Depends on your budget for the surrounds.

The HTM200's will work really well. I was using these as surrounds with S2 before I upgraded to the Towers with RAAL for my fronts. Still using the HTM's for ATMOS speakers and moved the S2 to surround duty. You can even wall mount the HTMs if you wanted as no rear port.

Luna or S2/S2EX would be great options, as well, albeit more expensive.

Thank you for the information, they help a lot. One concern regarding Luna, S2, or S2EX, will their lower efficiency compare to Tower/Horizon be an issue? I remember reading somewhere that Dave F. doesn't recommend surround speaker efficiency be too much off from the mains, which caused my concern. Meanwhile, when you moved the S2 to the surround position, what seems to be the improvements you noticed without running the HTM's?

[elan120]

I agree. If you're eventually going to get into multichannel music than I think a pair of Sierra-2s or Lunas are well worth it.

My music listening likely will stay just the two channel setup, but was wondering for HT, will Luna, S2, or S2EX provide a tangible improvement over the HTM's if the efficiency difference between them and the Tower isn't an issue?

[petmotel]

My music listening likely will stay just the two channel setup, but was wondering for HT, will Luna, S2, or S2EX provide a tangible improvement over the HTM's if the efficiency difference between them and the Tower isn't an issue?

In my experience, dome tweeters and the ribbon tweeters don't integrate well in circumstances where a high frequency sound pans from the front sound stage to the rear. I would recommend domes with domes, and ribbons with ribbons. Efficiency isn't much of an issue for the surrounds it's about a +3 db. boost to match volume between the Towers and Sierra ribbon speakers.

Jay

[elan120]

In my experience, dome tweeters and the ribbon tweeters don't integrate well in circumstances where a high frequency sound pans from the front sound stage to the rear. I would recommend domes with domes, and ribbons with ribbons. Efficiency isn't much of an issue for the surrounds it's about a +3 db. boost to match volume between the Towers and Sierra ribbon speakers.

Jay

Thank you for the ideas. I have been looking at the Luna, S2, or S2EX as the possibilities, but their efficiency is around 85 to 87db range, but Tower appears to be more efficient if I look at the in-room efficiency spec. Will this difference enough to be concerned?

[racrawford65]

My music listening likely will stay just the two channel setup, but was wondering for HT, will Luna, S2, or S2EX provide a tangible improvement over the HTM's if the efficiency difference between them and the Tower isn't an issue?

I didn't have any issues with either the HTM or current S2 as surround (or heights). Your AVR (which one?) likely has room correction where it will either boost or lower the "volume" to the different speakers so they are level matched at 75 db. Plus, your surrounds might be closer than your mains which will also help offset different levels of loudness at a constant power input.

For reference, here are the trim gains and distances in feet that I use with my MRX720.
Towers with RAAL FL/FR 0/-1 9/10
Center (Luna Duo) 6 9
S2 (SL/SR) 1/4 6/8
HTM (FHL/FHR) -5/-5 11/12
HTM (RHL/RHR) -6/-6 7/8
Sub 0 14

Note, I do boost the center by a couple of db just because of my old ears :-)
The HTM trim is negative due to difference in amp gains. I'm using a VTV class D with XLR inputs for the heights, center & surrounds driven by MRX internal amps, FL/FR driven by a Rogue ST100.
Subs (2 for music - E15HP both up front, 3 for music - the 2 E15s and currently an old Outlaw LFM-1 Plus near field). The 14 foot distance isn't actual, but based on REW calibration so in phase with mains. For music, I use the line in on the E15 amps to set cross-over and phase (i.e. distance) to align with mains.

I only use the surrounds (and heights) for the occasional movie. I'm 99% music and purely 2 channel. So, I've not really noticed (nor have I listened for) any differences. The S2 are used for the surrounds just because I had them (was able to sell my S2 center when I moved to the Luna Duo, which was an improvement in dialog clarity). The HTMs I was using as surrounds went to the office for background music whilst working from home (primarily Pandora streaming) - mainly due to placement options and it is secondary listening area - so wouldn't do the S2's justice, imo

[racrawford65]

In my experience, dome tweeters and the ribbon tweeters don't integrate well in circumstances where a high frequency sound pans from the front sound stage to the rear. I would recommend domes with domes, and ribbons with ribbons. Efficiency isn't much of an issue for the surrounds it's about a +3 db. boost to match volume between the Towers and Sierra ribbon speakers.

Jay

Jay - are you comparing Ascend domes with Ascend RAALs or domes/ribbons in general? I believe Dave (and/or others) have previously commented that the Ascend line is voiced pretty consistent across the speakers. Not to say that folks with better hearing (higher frequencies per se) than me might be more sensitive to me (wonder if I should be regretting all those rock concerts, loud car stereo, and garage band days when I was younger ;-) ).

[elan120]

I didn't have any issues with either the HTM or current S2 as surround (or heights). Your AVR (which one?) likely has room correction where it will either boost or lower the "volume" to the different speakers so they are level matched at 75 db. Plus, your surrounds might be closer than your mains which will also help offset different levels of loudness at a constant power input.

For reference, here are the trim gains and distances in feet that I use with my MRX720.
Towers with RAAL FL/FR 0/-1 9/10
Center (Luna Duo) 6 9
S2 (SL/SR) 1/4 6/8
HTM (FHL/FHR) -5/-5 11/12
HTM (RHL/RHR) -6/-6 7/8
Sub 0 14

Note, I do boost the center by a couple of db just because of my old ears :-)
The HTM trim is negative due to difference in amp gains. I'm using a VTV class D with XLR inputs for the heights, center & surrounds driven by MRX internal amps, FL/FR driven by a Rogue ST100.
Subs (2 for music - E15HP both up front, 3 for music - the 2 E15s and currently an old Outlaw LFM-1 Plus near field). The 14 foot distance isn't actual, but based on REW calibration so in phase with mains. For music, I use the line in on the E15 amps to set cross-over and phase (i.e. distance) to align with mains.

I only use the surrounds (and heights) for the occasional movie. I'm 99% music and purely 2 channel. So, I've not really noticed (nor have I listened for) any differences. The S2 are used for the surrounds just because I had them (was able to sell my S2 center when I moved to the Luna Duo, which was an improvement in dialog clarity). The HTMs I was using as surrounds went to the office for background music whilst working from home (primarily Pandora streaming) - mainly due to placement options and it is secondary listening area - so wouldn't do the S2's justice, imo

That sounds good. The Marantz AV7005 I use does have room correction calibration feature, which I have used them with my setup in the past. Since the speaker efficiency difference isn't a concern, I will pounder some more whether to go with S2 or S2EX as the cost difference between the Luna plus new stands will be close to S2 or S2EX without the stands, and the standard S2EX with current discount is only slightly higher than the S2.

The amp gain for all 5 channels is the same for HT setup, as I am planning to use my existing Emotiva 5 channel amplifier still. When listening in 2 channel music, I will experiment with different amps to see what will be a best match for the Tower, but my critical music listening, for the time being, will still be my headphone system. There is a good chance I will also experiment with the amplifiers I plan to acquire later this year for my headphone to see how well they will work with the Towers, but they are all in the 25 to 30W range, so hopefully the Towers are efficient enough and will play nicely in the size room I have.

[racrawford65]

I'd go with the S2EX, then, if you are considering the Luna, S2, and S2EX, based on the relative cost and the S2EX is the better speaker (and getting close to the Towers).

Which amps are you looking at? Based on the WPC mentioned, I'm assuming Class A and perhaps tube-based.

[elan120]

I'd go with the S2EX, then, if you are considering the Luna, S2, and S2EX, based on the relative cost and the S2EX is the better speaker (and getting close to the Towers).

Which amps are you looking at? Based on the WPC mentioned, I'm assuming Class A and perhaps tube-based.

Thank you for the information on the S2EX, I will give this more thoughts in the next week or two before making my final decision.

The amps I am considering for my headphone at the moment are Sugden Audio A21SE, Luxman 590aii, and Pass Int 25. I will start with couple flea power tube SET amps I already have to see how well the Towers will respond, but since they are 8 to 12W per channel amps, I don't have very high expection that they will pair well with the Towers, but should give me a better sense on how the 3 amps mentioned will likely to work with the Towers in my listening room.

[racrawford65]

nice selection of amps.
Let us know what you decide on the speakers (and amps).

[petmotel]

Jay - are you comparing Ascend domes with Ascend RAALs or domes/ribbons in general? I believe Dave (and/or others) have previously commented that the Ascend line is voiced pretty consistent across the speakers. Not to say that folks with better hearing (higher frequencies per se) than me might be more sensitive to me (wonder if I should be regretting all those rock concerts, loud car stereo, and garage band days when I was younger ;-) ).

First let me preface with the fact that I listen to a lot of well recorded multi-channel music Something like AIX's Moonlight Acoustica's stage mix DVD-A has a fair amount of bell type sounds that pan front stage to back. I originally had a 5.1 arrangement with RAAL equipped Towers and Horizon RCL and Sierra-1NRTs as surrounds. I replaced the Sierra 1s with 2s and was amazed with the results. Ribbons just have a sparkle and airy ease that domes just can't replicate.

I really can't say that as movie surrounds I ever really noticed the difference between the NRTs and the 2s. It has been a long time that I've been rockin' a full ribbon complement (except now for ATMOS heights), and the soundfield is glorious, and seamless. Could be I'm just too darn picky.

Edit: maybe you'll be listening to mainly 2 channel music, there are some really good Blu-ray concert videos with really nice multi-channel sound tracks.

Jay

[davef]

Hello everyone, I am new to this forum, but am very interested in getting a pair of Tower with RAAL tweeter option. This is going to be used in a 5.1 setup with the Horizon as center, but will likely be used more in 2 channel music listening. Room is about 12x16x8, where the listening position will be about 7 to 8 ft from the main speakers, and the main speaker will be about 5.5 to 6 ft apart. The question is, what will be a good choice for the two surround speakers that will be on stands, placed behind the listening position close to either cornor of the back wall?

TIA for all recommendations.

Hi Elan120 and welcome to our forum!

The best choice for surrounds with our RAAL ribbon towers as fronts is a pair of Luna's. The Lunas (and Duos) have exceptionally wide horizontal dispersion, even wider than Sierra-2/2EX, and this translates to a more immersive and wider surround sound field.


One concern regarding Luna, S2, or S2EX, will their lower efficiency compare to Tower/Horizon be an issue? I remember reading somewhere that Dave F. doesn't recommend surround speaker efficiency be too much off from the mains, which caused my concern.

I have never stated that. There is really no reason that the surround speakers need to match or even come close to the efficiency of the front speakers. First off, your receiver or processer will handle the level matching and secondly - for the vast majority of consumer multichannel systems, the surrounds are located much closer to the listener compared to the fronts, which often results in lowering the levels of the surrounds to get a proper blend with the fronts.

At what distance will the surrounds be placed from the main listening position?

[elan120]

Hi Elan120 and welcome to our forum!

The best choice for surrounds with our RAAL ribbon towers as fronts is a pair of Luna's. The Lunas (and Duos) have exceptionally wide horizontal dispersion, even wider than Sierra-2/2EX, and this translates to a more immersive and wider surround sound field.



I have never stated that. There is really no reason that the surround speakers need to match or even come close to the efficiency of the front speakers. First off, your receiver or processer will handle the level matching and secondly - for the vast majority of consumer multichannel systems, the surrounds are located much closer to the listener compared to the fronts, which often results in lowering the levels of the surrounds to get a proper blend with the fronts.

At what distance will the surrounds be placed from the main listening position?

Thank you Dave for the information, and it is good to know Luna is a better choice as a surround compare to 2S or 2SEX when paired with RAAL towers.

The surrounds will about 5 ft from the main listening position.

On a side note, I wonder if you received the two emails I sent to your attention in the past few days? I was hoping for addition inputs, so please let me know if I should resend the emails.

Regards,
Kevin

[elan120]

nice selection of amps.
Let us know what you decide on the speakers (and amps).

After further discussion with Dave, your inputs from earlier, also the possibility of moving the surround speakers in the future to use as bedroom system, I picked the S2EX as surround to go with the Towers w/RAAL and Horizon w/RAAL. Now that the order is in, time to wait for the delivery. As for amps, I plan to go with Luxman L-590AXII.

[racrawford65]

Nice choices

[petmotel]

I use Sierra-2EXs as the side surrounds in my system and love them in that role. For me, I'm always in the sweet spot, so I'm not sure that wider horizontal dispersion would contribute to the experience.

There are instances in movie soundtracks where there are loud, impactful effects coming from the surrounds, during which I'm thinking the extreme dynamic capabilities of the EXs is a very good thing. I've not yet experienced the Lunas, so I have no first hand opinion concerning their dynamic capabilities. All this to say that I think you will be very pleased with your choice!

Jay

[choirbass]

Jay, the Lunas are very similar to the HTM-200 SE

[petmotel]

Jay, the Lunas are very similar to the HTM-200 SE

This gave me a nice smile! I'm sure plenty here have experienced the HTM-200s but I've no experience with those either. The only non ribbon Ascends I've heard were Sierra-1NRTs which I no longer own. I do own 11 RAAL equipped Ascends, I'm really drawn to what the ribbons bring to the sound.

Jay

[elan120]

I use Sierra-2EXs as the side surrounds in my system and love them in that role. For me, I'm always in the sweet spot, so I'm not sure that wider horizontal dispersion would contribute to the experience.

There are instances in movie soundtracks where there are loud, impactful effects coming from the surrounds, during which I'm thinking the extreme dynamic capabilities of the EXs is a very good thing. I've not yet experienced the Lunas, so I have no first hand opinion concerning their dynamic capabilities. All this to say that I think you will be very pleased with your choice!

Jay

That sounds good. I will be sitting in the sweet spot as well, so the S2EX appears to be the right choice, and in addition, since the bass on S2EX goes lower, it will likely have wider range of crossover frequencies to experiment with the subwoofer.

I am very much looking forward to have the speakers setup and start playing some materials through them.

[N Boros]

This gave me a nice smile! I'm sure plenty here have experienced the HTM-200s but I've no experience with those either. The only non ribbon Ascends I've heard were Sierra-1NRTs which I no longer own. I do own 11 RAAL equipped Ascends, I'm really drawn to what the ribbons bring to the sound.

Jay

I have the HTM 200s for surrounds in two rooms. Living room has CMT 340s for mains and center. My theater area has Sierra 2s as fronts. I think they blend very well in both systems. I was planning to upgrade to Lunas for surround down the line, but it will likely be pretty far down the line if I do it at all, having listened to them now.

I will say that the HTM 200s should be chosen mainly if you can wall mount them. In my theater area I have one of them on a stand and the other wall mounted. The crossover on the stand mounted one is 100 or maybe even 120 Hz, whereas wall mounted they can get down to around 80 Hz. If they were stand mounted out in the room I think that the CBM 170s would be a better choice. I plan to put up a couple of walls so that my theater area becomes an enclosed theater room, so both surrounds will be wall mounted hopefully soon. Honestly it still sounds great though, but I would prefer to have both at a lowers crossover.

My opinion could change after getting a couple of wall up, getting a lower noise floor and putting up acoustic treatments to improve the overall sound. So I’ll to until that point to decide if I want to upgrade to lunas for surrounds.

[davef]

Jay, the Lunas are very similar to the HTM-200 SE

I don't agree with this statement. The 200's and Luna's have nothing at all in common, other than both being compact speakers. 200's are really a smaller version of our CBM-170 and the Luna's are a smaller version of our Sierra-2/Sierra-2EX.

[choirbass]

I’m not disagreeing with you Dave. For me the Lunas were an ideal front channel option coming from the HTM-200 SEs. Primarily due to their size similarities, with the Lunas being even more ideal.

I might be in the minority, but I don’t hear a difference between the SE tweeters and RAAL tweeters.