First impressions Ascend CBM-170 SE

[twoengine]

First impressions of my new Ascend CBM-170 SE speakers. I'm going to preface my initial review by saying my methodology of testing. Again, this is my first impressions but a good indication of its general sound characteristics at this point in time. Equipment used, Rotel RA-12 integrated amp, 60 wpc, Denon DVD/SACD/CD player, laptop using Tidal Masters MQA, Soundmagic non-mqa DAC. Therefore, MQA just had the first unfolding. I will be comparing the Ascend to my other current speakers, Paradigm Mini-monitors V6, and NHT Superzero 2.1 speakers. As a baseline, tone controls were set flat on Rotel and no subwoofer was used. Therefore, all the speakers could sound different when compared to each other if increasing the bass and treble and using a subwoofer. I only listened to the speakers on low to moderate volumes. Not loud volumes or at more volume I would normally listen to. I played a variety of genres of music, ie. hip-hop, R&B, rock, classical.

Ascend speakers have a very flat frequency response. Excellent clarity, analytical, detailed. The bass is pretty tight for a bass reflex/ported design, which is really impressive. The Paradigms bass is not quite as tight, but digs a little deeper. The Paradigms bass is never muddy or flabby though, just not as tight. Paradigms have very good clarity, but a little less so than the Ascends. Paradigms sound a littler warmer, whereas the Ascends are a little more detailed and analytical. NHT doesn't have much bass compared to the others and definately needs a subwoofer. But, what bass is there is very tight. I'm not a basshead, therefore I could use the Ascend and Paradigm with no subwoofer at all. I primarily only listen to music, so I can do without the subwoofer, but if you watch a lot of movies on home theater system, then a subwoofer is needed.

All three speakers have excellent midrange. All sound very natural with nice presence. Voices sound full bodied and awesome. If I had to choose the best midrange out of the bunch I would probably choose the NHT. The clarity and detail is so effortless sounding and probably has to do with the acoustic suspension/closed design. I have always liked closed designs for that reason. Ascend is very close behind followed by Paradigm. Also, probably because the midrange stands out on the NHT because of the lack of bass compared to the others.

Ascend treble is smooth, clear, detailed. There's something I noticed though about the treble when listening at different volume levels. The more I turned up the volume, the treble seemed to increase more compared to the midrange and bass. The other speakers did not do that. The treble got a little sizzle to it. I wouldn't necessarily call it hot or bright though. But, the treble came more forward, whereas the mids and lows stayed where they were. That would be my biggest criticism of the Ascend. I didn't care for that because it defeats the purpose of having a very flat frequency response to begin with. I don't know if frequency graphs show this phenomenon or not, but thats what I'm hearing.

All three speakers have great soundstage. I have no complaints there.

The Paradigm is easiest to drive and the most efficient, followed by the Ascend and NHT.
Aside from the sound, I would not call the Ascend a fugly speaker. I would say it's just kind of generic looking, but I actually kind of like it's basic, simple looks. It's a well built, solid speaker, as well as the others. But, if going strictly by looks, the NHT has a very nice glossy black finish. Pretty unheard of at that price point.

In conclusion, the Ascend CBM-170 SE is an awesome speaker especially for the price. I'm sure the other Ascend offerings are even better, but at a big price step up. I don't really like to get into diminishing returns game because like most people I have a budget to work with. The fact that I don't need to use a subwoofer with it for music is impressive for a bookshelf speaker that has such a flat frequency response.

With that being said, I'm always looking for the best bang for the buck. Although, the Ascend is a great value, the NHT wins by being the best sounding to me, best bang for the buck. Of course, the NHT needs a subwoofer, so that offsets the value. But, with a subwoofer, I can't believe how awesome the NHT sounds. I admit though that I do like sealed enclosures. It would be interesting if Ascend designed a sealed version of the CBM-170 SE. I would probably absolutely love that.

Bottom line: I like all these speakers for different reasons. They all do certain things very well. It's amazing the quality of sound you can get for the money.

[chas]

Great write-up and very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do this. I wonder how the sealed HTM-200SE would sound compared to the NHT.

[curtis]

Great write-up and very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do this. I wonder how the sealed HTM-200SE would sound compared to the NHT.
Great write-up and I had the same thought.

[twoengine]

Update, the more i listen to the Ascend CBM-170 SE speakers the more I like them. It's a tremendous value. The amazing thing is how awesome they sound with tone controls totally flat and no subwoofer. In other words, it's flat sounding, but at the same time full and rich sounding almost as if the bass and treble is turned up. That's what so impressive and no small feat. I usually always have to adjust the bass and treble to get it to sound good to me. But, when I adjust the tone controls to my liking, I get even a little better sound.

I have been listening to some Miles Davis on Tidal. The trumpet sounds smooth and the high frequencies get detailed without sounding harsh or sibilant. Cymbals sound so crisp. Mids sound so natural. Bass has a good balance of tightness and deepness for a ported enclosure. This is all with the tone controls flat, which is very impressive because sometimes horns can make the treble sound shouty and bright.

Bottom line: Where the Ascend CBM-170 excels is the flat frequency response at different volume levels. The speakers stay composed no matter what kind of music is playing or at what volume. Because of the flat frequency response, it seems to always be in control of the music with no specific octave getting out of wack. Regarding my previous post, the little sizzle in the treble I was hearing is not much of an issue. It's just something I noticed and wanted to mention, but doesn't deter from the overall cohesiveness of the sound quality these speakers put out.

[davef]

There's something I noticed though about the treble when listening at different volume levels. The more I turned up the volume, the treble seemed to increase more compared to the midrange and bass.

Very nice review, and happy to hear you are enjoying the 170's. One minor correction though, the 170's frequency response does not change with volume until once you reach the woofer's mechanical / thermal limitations, the same for basically any speaker. This would be at very high volume levels, likely to the point of possible hearing damage depending on your listening distance.

The phenomenon you mentioned about the frequency changing as spl changes is actually due to your hearing, all human hearing. This is known as the equal loudness contour, previously known as the Fletcher Munson curve. It's an interesting phenomenon and as a loudspeaker engineer for what is now approaching 4 decades, I wish more consumers understood this as they tend to always blame the speakers for sounding different at different volume levels. I don't recall ever coming across a well designed speaker whereby the frequency response actually changed with volume levels by more than 1dB or 2, until thermal / dynamic compression starts setting in.

SoundStage actually starting posting an interesting measurement called Deviation from Linearity where they show the change (in dB) between the speaker's frequency response at 90dB compared to 70dB. I don't think I have seen even one measurement that shows a deviation of more than 2dB, and when this occurs - it is typically due to having a small diameter woofer that can't handle much excursion, or ported speakers whereby the air velocity in the port has reached it's maximum. When there is a measurable deviation, it is rarely, if ever, in the response of the tweeter.

While 90dB doesn't seem like too loud of a volume to measure at, it is important to understand that this is measured at 2 meters in an anechoic chamber, this is deafening loud in a real world environment.

Hope you find this info useful.

[twoengine]

David,

Thanks for replying regarding the phenomenon I was experiencing. But, can you explain why I was hearing that with your speakers and not the other speakers? What is it about your tweeter and/or crossover that caused my ears to perceive the increase in the treble relative to the mids and bass? It should be noted that I played the same music track for all the speakers. Therefore, that leads me to believe it's not just my hearing, but something happening in your speakers. Because, if it was just my hearing alone, would I not be either hearing the same phenomenon in all the speakers or none of the speakers given I played the same exact test track?

[JonCr]

I think a more apples to apples comparison vs the CBM-170 would be the NHT SuperOne - both have 6.5” woofers. Both great speakers.

[twoengine]

I want to preface what I'm about to say by saying that I like all the speakers that I currently have. I have been doing more critical listening and have some more observations. My criticisms of any speaker is not meant to bash, but point out the differences between them. I would highly recommend any of them. Because, that's what people do in the stereo/audio hobby, compare and contrast equipment. That's part of the enjoyment of the hobby. The variety of sound, not necessarily one speaker being better than another. Therefore, don't view my criticisms as major faults, but examining the product and see if there's an opportunity it can be improved in certain areas.

With that being said, I noticed that the Ascend speakers does everything very well, ie. treble, mids, bass. Voices sound very natural. But, for some reason piano is not as natural sounding as the NHT. The Ascend doesn't sound as full sounding, a little lifeless, lacking some presence, a little distant sounding. I'm not sure why that is when I don't notice anything else unusual about the midrange. Maybe others would be hearing something different than what I'm hearing, but that's what I'm hearing.

The CBM-170 SE is a great speaker, but at the same time it's kind of an anomaly for me. It's doing some things I have never experienced before and I'm not sure why. I would probably have never noticed these things if I wasn't directly A/B'ing them with the other speakers. But, since that's what I'm doing these certain things are making itself be noticed.

Again, I'm using the same test track for all the speakers to try to rule out any variables.

[davef]

David,

Thanks for replying regarding the phenomenon I was experiencing. But, can you explain why I was hearing that with your speakers and not the other speakers? What is it about your tweeter and/or crossover that caused my ears to perceive the increase in the treble relative to the mids and bass? It should be noted that I played the same music track for all the speakers. Therefore, that leads me to believe it's not just my hearing, but something happening in your speakers. Because, if it was just my hearing alone, would I not be either hearing the same phenomenon in all the speakers or none of the speakers given I played the same exact test track?


What is it about your tweeter and/or crossover that caused my ears to perceive the increase in the treble relative to the mids and bass?

There is nothing about our tweeter and/or crossover that causes your ears to perceive an increase in treble relative to other frequencies as volume increases. Tweeters and especially crossovers are linear devices.

Tweeters, woofers, capacitors/inductors/resistors (crossover components) - these are all linear devices until they hit dynamic / thermal or saturation limits. These limits are at rather extreme volume levels. These devices do not know the difference between a 1 millivolt signal or a 30 volt signal, they react the same way.

Your amplification is also a linear device. The only component in this closed loop system that is non-linear is your hearing, and this is extremely far from being linear. In other words, changes in amplitude change what you hear.

I can not definitively tell you why you are experiencing what you are, but I can tell you as fact, backed by science - that:

1. The sound of produced by the CBM-170's does not change with volume levels until you reach the limitations I mentioned above.

2. To trust one's own hearing to make a determination that goes against proven science and measurements is a mistake. However, one can and should trust their own hearing to make a determination as to what speaker they prefer.

3. We have been selling CBM-170's for over 20 years now, they have been thoroughly tested, evaluated, and measured by over a half dozen 3rd party professionals & scientists at this point. They are used in recording studios, sound labs, college music rooms - even bars. There are tens of thousands of 170's out there in the field, not only has any measurement ever taken of them indicate what you are experiencing, I also can't recall a single user, besides yourself, ever making this claim.

That said, and I want to stress this, I absolutely do not doubt you are hearing what you are, but the reasons you are hearing this are not due to the speaker being non-linear.

Our hearing is very complex, and I can only guess as to why you are experiencing this change as volume gets louder. What I suspect is happening is that both the SuperZero and Mini-Monitor have very pronounced high frequency dips in their frequency response, this is in the 3-4KHz range.

Superzero:

https://www.soundandvision.com/images/711nht.meas.jpg

MiniMonitor:

https://www.soundandvision.com/images/1111para.meas.jpg

This is the range where human hearing is most sensitive. (also why many speakers purposely have a dip in their response at these frequencies) I suspect you have an increased sensitivity in this frequency range (don't be concerned, we all hear differently and have different sensitivities).

The 170's do not have this dip in frequency response, thus your ears are receiving more information in this frequency range when listening to the 170's compared to listening to your other speakers. It is also precisely why you described the 170's as having more sizzle when doing your comparisons to these other speakers.

Now, as volume gets louder, so is your sensitivity to these frequencies, thus these frequencies sound louder to you compared to the rest of the frequency range of the speaker. Both the SuperZero and Mini-Monitors have considerably less output at these frequencies (about 4dB less, which is a lot) compared to the rest of the speaker's frequency response. As such, your hearing in this range is not being excited nearly as much so that what you are hearing at louder volume levels with these speakers sounds more balanced to you.

You can read more about this here if you like:

https://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_nonlinear.php#.

even try the tests yourself...

[davef]

I noticed that the Ascend speakers does everything very well, ie. treble, mids, bass. Voices sound very natural. But, for some reason piano is not as natural sounding as the NHT.

Did you notice the rather huge bump in the midrange response of the NHT? Also the bumped up bass response in the 150Hz range? That pronounced midrange bump is going to make the midrange response sound more present, more detailed. You prefer this sound but it isn't technically correct. Grab an EQ, add the same bump to the 170 and you won't hear this difference. The bump in the 150Hz range also makes the NHT sound fuller. This bump in the upper bass is common with small consumer speakers and is planned for, as it tends to make smaller speakers sound larger.

Here are extremely accurate anechoic measurements of the CBM-170SE taken by a group of research scientists at Princeton University. They are still using our 170's :)

https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/Directivity/Ascend%20Acoustics%20CBM-170%20SE/images/Plots/Horizontal/Ascend%20Acoustics%20CBM-170%20SE%20H%20Freq%20Resp%20Plot%20Q1.png

Notice how the 0 degree measurement (on axis) basically only various by about +/- 1.5dB?

There is science backed up by measurements to explain what you are hearing, but only you can determine what you prefer - and in that regard, you are doing an excellent job. If you are looking for neutral, the 170's are difficult to match. If you are looking for a sound that is more colored, the 170's are not the right speaker.

[twoengine]

David,

That was an awesome explanation of what I was hearing and experiencing. I really appreciate you solving the mystery to me those phenomenons. I trust my ears to what I'm hearing, but would never challenge proven science with them. I love the CBM-170 SE speakers for all the things I mentioned earlier. I guess I just prefer music to sound a certain way, even if it's not technically accurate. I did mention that I usually always adjust the tone controls at least a little to boost the bass and treble.

I don't doubt that your speakers have plenty of research behind them, hence your success with the speakers.

Bottom line: I think it will just take a little more time for my ears to get accustomed to very accurate monitor speakers. I admit I'm not used to that.

More than that, it's refreshing to know that you are keeping the sound technically true, accurate, and authentic as possible to the music. In other words, I almost feel as if I have been scammed in a way by other speaker companies in that they will intentionally shape the sound in a certain way modifying the drivers or crossovers for more mass appeal. In other words, I would rather them take the approach you have taken by manufacturing a very accurate speaker and then leave it up to the end user to change the sound how they prefer it.

The CBM-170 SE speakers are keepers, but even more so after your great explanation of what was going on. Because without your explanation, I would have felt like there's something weird going on with your speakers and that the phenomenon was trying to be swept under the rug because of some known anomaly.

The thing is if I get used to the sound of the CBM-170 SE speakers accuracy over time, when I go back to listen to the other speakers I may say why do these speakers sound so unnatural and inaccurate? I'm going to have to adjust them to sound more like the CBM-170 SE. Because again, I listen to the Ascend flat and not so with the other speakers.

[billy p]

David,

That was an awesome explanation of what I was hearing and experiencing. I really appreciate you solving the mystery to me those phenomenons. I trust my ears to what I'm hearing, but would never challenge proven science with them. I love the CBM-170 SE speakers for all the things I mentioned earlier. I guess I just prefer music to sound a certain way, even if it's not technically accurate. I did mention that I usually always adjust the tone controls at least a little to boost the bass and treble.

I don't doubt that your speakers have plenty of research behind them, hence your success with the speakers.

Bottom line: I think it will just take a little more time for my ears to get accustomed to very accurate monitor speakers. I admit I'm not used to that.

More than that, it's refreshing to know that you are keeping the sound technically true, accurate, and authentic as possible to the music. In other words, I almost feel as if I have been scammed in a way by other speaker companies in that they will intentionally shape the sound in a certain way modifying the drivers or crossovers for more mass appeal. In other words, I would rather them take the approach you have taken by manufacturing a very accurate speaker and then leave it up to the end user to change the sound how they prefer it.

The CBM-170 SE speakers are keepers, but even more so after your great explanation of what was going on. Because without your explanation, I would have felt like there's something weird going on with your speakers and that the phenomenon was trying to be swept under the rug because of some known anomaly.

The thing is if I get used to the sound of the CBM-170 SE speakers accuracy over time, when I go back to listen to the other speakers I may say why do these speakers sound so unnatural and inaccurate? I'm going to have to adjust them to sound more like the CBM-170 SE. Because again, I listen to the Ascend flat and not so with the other speakers.

Your last paragraph...pretty much sums it up. When I switched to the Ascend models....I was recommended to listen for about a week and go back to my previous speakers....that experience was very enlightening making me understand what I was hearing vs. what I perceived to preferred....going forward.

[davef]

David,

That was an awesome explanation of what I was hearing and experiencing. I really appreciate you solving the mystery to me those phenomenons. I trust my ears to what I'm hearing, but would never challenge proven science with them. I love the CBM-170 SE speakers for all the things I mentioned earlier. I guess I just prefer music to sound a certain way, even if it's not technically accurate. I did mention that I usually always adjust the tone controls at least a little to boost the bass and treble.

I don't doubt that your speakers have plenty of research behind them, hence your success with the speakers.

Bottom line: I think it will just take a little more time for my ears to get accustomed to very accurate monitor speakers. I admit I'm not used to that.

More than that, it's refreshing to know that you are keeping the sound technically true, accurate, and authentic as possible to the music. In other words, I almost feel as if I have been scammed in a way by other speaker companies in that they will intentionally shape the sound in a certain way modifying the drivers or crossovers for more mass appeal. In other words, I would rather them take the approach you have taken by manufacturing a very accurate speaker and then leave it up to the end user to change the sound how they prefer it.

The CBM-170 SE speakers are keepers, but even more so after your great explanation of what was going on. Because without your explanation, I would have felt like there's something weird going on with your speakers and that the phenomenon was trying to be swept under the rug because of some known anomaly.

The thing is if I get used to the sound of the CBM-170 SE speakers accuracy over time, when I go back to listen to the other speakers I may say why do these speakers sound so unnatural and inaccurate? I'm going to have to adjust them to sound more like the CBM-170 SE. Because again, I listen to the Ascend flat and not so with the other speakers.

You are most welcome and I am glad my explanation made sense. It is often quite difficult to explain these things.


More than that, it's refreshing to know that you are keeping the sound technically true, accurate, and authentic as possible to the music. In other words, I almost feel as if I have been scammed in a way by other speaker companies in that they will intentionally shape the sound in a certain way modifying the drivers or crossovers for more mass appeal.

You shouldn't feel scammed, speakers are tools meant to be used to enjoy listening to music. It still comes down to personal preference as to what you or anyone else enjoys the most, and we all have different tastes. Audio would be a very boring hobby without so many different speakers to listen to.

[twoengine]

You are most welcome and I am glad my explanation made sense. It is often quite difficult to explain these things.



You shouldn't feel scammed, speakers are tools meant to be used to enjoy listening to music. It still comes down to personal preference as to what you or anyone else enjoys the most, and we all have different tastes. Audio would be a very boring hobby without so many different speakers to listen to.

I don't really feel scammed. It's just that I like to understand what's going on with what I'm hearing and most speaker companies are not as forth coming with information about how they designed their speakers or show frequency response graphs of their speakers. That makes a big difference to me.

With some recordings especially, I still can't believe how dynamic and impactful the CBM-170 SE sounds with flat tone controls. I don't think I have ever heard a speaker before sound the way they do with no bass and treble adjustment and I didn't feel I needed to adjust it or use a subwoofer. Especially, given that it's a bookshelf speakers. With bigger speakers and drivers, it's less constrained with what they can do. That's the most amazing thing to me about the speaker.

[Mag_Neato]

The original, non-SE CBM-170's were my first Ascend speakers. The CMT-340's, HTM-200's, etc. did not even exist at the time.

The 170's impressed me so much they replaced a pair of B&W 602's. The smooth, neutral sound and imaging were the main things that won me over. The fact that the tweeter did not assault my ears was another winning trait. Sometimes I wish I'd kept them after getting the Sierra-1's just to have them for a secondary system. The fact Dave is still selling the 170's to this day without a post SE design change is remarkable, and a testament to a well designed speaker.

[curtis]

You shouldn't feel scammed, speakers are tools meant to be used to enjoy listening to music. It still comes down to personal preference as to what you or anyone else enjoys the most, and we all have different tastes. Audio would be a very boring hobby without so many different speakers to listen to.
I have been involved in many "shootouts". There have been times where a speaker sounded terrible to me, and someone else loved it. Really left me scratching my head.
Proves many don't hear the same.

[twoengine]

Spending more time with the CBM-170 SE. These are some of things that these speakers do so well. Ruler flat frequency response, clarity, imaging, integrated/cohesive sound of bass, mids, treble, dynamic and impactful with no adjustment of tone controls, tightness of bass in a ported box, speakers sound big for a bookshelf speaker, vocals sound so natural and realistic, soft dome tweeter, has plenty of sparkle without sounding bright or harsh.

I have the speakers on wood Skylan speaker stands filled with sand so I can place them to get the best imaging and soundstage.

Bottom line: I absolutely love these speakers. I can't believe the quality of sound for the price. These speakers have to be one of the best bargains in speaker audio.

If more people knew about Ascend speakers they wouldn't feel the need to pay more for less for the big name speaker companies. There's plenty of great options out there, but if you are looking for the best bang for the buck without a doubt Ascend is at the very top of the list.