Finally pulled the trigger.

[Qman]

After months of indecision, and reading all sorts of reviews and info, I finally went for broke and ordered the S2EX pair and Duo center in Espresso! And to think all i was originally looking for was a bargain on a low-to-mid level LCR set. I hope the invoice is not packed with the speakers so nobody else will see the cost! :o Now I will start searching for a deal on a Atmos AVR...more $$$!

[racrawford65]

Congrats!

[whitey019]

Enjoy!

[davef]

After months of indecision, and reading all sorts of reviews and info, I finally went for broke and ordered the S2EX pair and Duo center in Espresso! And to think all i was originally looking for was a bargain on a low-to-mid level LCR set. I hope the invoice is not packed with the speakers so nobody else will see the cost! :o Now I will start searching for a deal on a Atmos AVR...more $$$!

Thanks so much for getting your order in!

[Qman]

So I received my Duo and 2EX pair last night. Impressive protective packaging!
First was to connect the duo for center duties for the wife watching TV. My initial reaction was "what is with that bloat in the upper bass/lower mid?" Male voices honked and were boxy. Unexpected for sure. Next I connected the 2EXs quickly on the same receiver since music listening while my wife was watching TV was going to be impossible. I used some generic 16ga (5 ft) speaker wire, and placed some sorbothane pads under them (I did not want to stick on the supplied pads in case i decide to return them). I placed them on the edges of the HT cabinet, which puts them about 24 inches off the floor, and about 6 ft apart, and about 2 ft from the back wall to the rear of the speaker. This is about where I plan to put them, due to room limitations. Definitely not ideal, but that's the hand I'm dealt. Listening position is about 11 ft away and nearly against the wall. Again, not ideal.
I put on some music DVDs in 2 ch mode. Again, what is with the lower mid bloat? Somewhere around 150-250 Hz, I'm guessing. I moved one speaker out about 2 ft, on the Ascend shipping box, to try for a few minutes and it seemed to help just a little. Muddy is a word i would use here. Way too much energy in that range, making voices unintelligible. I bypassed all the digital stuff and ran the player directly into a stereo input to see how that would work. More dynamic, but still very muddy. Not sure what to make of these so far.
I have no way to EQ at the moment, other than whatever the old Pioneer receiver can provide (VSX712). Next, I will move the S2ex's to 2 channel in a different room using my Bryston B60 Integrated, and a decent CD player, with more proper room spacing. Hopefully I will notice some improvement. I WILL be updating my AVR at some point to include bass management /EQ. Question: Does the typical AVR adjust the center channel EQ as well as the mains/sub? And how far up the freq range does the typical AVR room correction adjust?

On the positive side, the upper mids are smooth! Upper piano can be so piercing on some speakers, not these. Treble is smooth, as smooth as these old ears can tell. Turning it up a couple dB with Dave Mathews at Central Park DVD and turning on the Legacy Pacemaker sub really showed the dynamics of these little ex's. Very impressive. Snare drum impacts are tangible. Tom drums have notes, not just thuds. They handle power without compressing. Integration with the sub seemed immediately nice without any adjustments. (Running EXs full range with sub set at ~45Hz). Next my wife went to bed and I turned the volume down. As mentioned in other threads, the quality/frequency fullness at low levels did not diminish at all. Something I've not experienced before. Also to note was the receiver remained very cool running after pushing it a little.

[Pogre]

You have an old Pio receiver? Subs? Crossover settings? Did you run MCACC? Lots of things to consider. Maybe a pic of your setup too.

[racrawford65]

Are they away from the side walls, as well? I don't like to corner load my speakers.
Also, any way to move your listening position away from the back wall? Generally, should be 1/3rd of room length from either the back wall or front wall.

The typical AVR will EQ all channels that can be connected. My MRX720 will do 11 channels of EQ. They recommend no more than 5 kHZ as upper EQ range. Primarily as the mic isn't accurate much beyond that. I believe Audessey and Dirac have the same limitations. That said, alot of people (myself included) focus on the lower frequencies (say no more than 250 or 300 HZ). I'm still dialing in my system (since picking up second sub about two weeks ago) but have pretty much decided not to use any EQ in the AVR, just cross-overs, speaker trim, and speaker boost. I've added a miniDSP 2x4 HD to EQ the subs (and may play around with cross-overs in the minidsp for the sub, as well). Great device - if your current receiver has preouts and you are doing 3.1, you can even run the fronts, center and sub into it and do your EQing and cut-offs in it.

[Qman]

My receiver is old enough to not have a feedback mic. Sub is a Legacy Pacemaker, crossed at 45Hz, EXs running full range. although most of my listening last night was no sub. I'll connect the Bryston in next couple days and see how that works out. It will be in a different room so that should be telling. The center channel is what really makes me scratch my head. You'd think it would be pretty clear/not boomy out of the box.

[Qman]

Are they away from the side walls, as well? I don't like to corner load my speakers.
Also, any way to move your listening position away from the back wall? Generally, should be 1/3rd of room length from either the back wall or front wall.

The typical AVR will EQ all channels that can be connected. My MRX720 will do 11 channels of EQ. They recommend no more than 5 kHZ as upper EQ range. Primarily as the mic isn't accurate much beyond that. I believe Audessey and Dirac have the same limitations. That said, alot of people (myself included) focus on the lower frequencies (say no more than 250 or 300 HZ). I'm still dialing in my system (since picking up second sub about two weeks ago) but have pretty much decided not to use any EQ in the AVR, just cross-overs, speaker trim, and speaker boost. I've added a miniDSP 2x4 HD to EQ the subs (and may play around with cross-overs in the minidsp for the sub, as well). Great device - if your current receiver has preouts and you are doing 3.1, you can even run the fronts, center and sub into it and do your EQing and cut-offs in it.

Yes, the are very far away from side walls. (about 9 ft each.) Thanks for the input. Wow, that company makes some interesting gear! Havent seen that before. I'll let you know how my 2nd room evaluation goes.

[Bruce Watson]

My initial reaction was "what is with that bloat in the upper bass/lower mid?" Male voices honked and were boxy. Unexpected for sure. Next I connected the 2EXs quickly on the same receiver since music listening while my wife was watching TV was going to be impossible. I used some generic 16ga (5 ft) speaker wire, and placed some sorbothane pads under them (I did not want to stick on the supplied pads in case i decide to return them). I placed them on the edges of the HT cabinet, which puts them about 24 inches off the floor, and about 6 ft apart, and about 2 ft from the back wall to the rear of the speaker. This is about where I plan to put them, due to room limitations. Definitely not ideal, but that's the hand I'm dealt. Listening position is about 11 ft away and nearly against the wall. Again, not ideal.
I put on some music DVDs in 2 ch mode. Again, what is with the lower mid bloat? Somewhere around 150-250 Hz, I'm guessing. I moved one speaker out about 2 ft, on the Ascend shipping box, to try for a few minutes and it seemed to help just a little. Muddy is a word i would use here.

This isn't the speakers. It's your room. You've probably run up against a room mode that causes a peak in the mid-bass at your major listening position. Probably coupled with rapid reflections off that wall behind the listening position (causing the muddiness), and reflections off the ceiling and side walls making it sound boxy ("small room sound").

Now that you have the speakers that show you what the room is doing, treating the room is in order. This means not just absorption, but also diffusion (especially behind your listening position [if I've interpreted the physical relationships in that room correctly] and at the first reflection points on sidewalls and ceiling (if you can)), and of course bass traps.

One quick thing to try is to move your listening position off that back wall a foot or 18" as a test. If your midbass "bloat" changes, you'll know for sure it's a room mode problem.

Probably not what you wanted to hear. But this is the way acoustics in small rooms usually plays out.

Of course you can (I really recommend it) also get an AVR with good room EQ software, anything from the Audyssey system to Dirac, ARC, etc. These systems typically EQ the frequency response of the room (as experienced at and around the listening position) for at last the bottom few octaves to full range, depending on the system and its settings.

I've been using Audyssey on my old Denon X-4000 for years, and it does an outstanding job fixing some problems I've got in my listening room. Makes that little Luna Duo center a serious joy to listen to -- perfectly flat response, clean crisp dialog. My wife loves the Duo!

Best of all worlds, treat the room, then run EQ software on top of that. The problems you're describing will be a distant memory.

[curtis]

That said, alot of people (myself included) focus on the lower frequencies (say no more than 250 or 300 HZ).
FWIW, I am one these people, but my eq is set at 400hz and below(I think as it has been set for a while).


My receiver is old enough to not have a feedback mic. Sub is a Legacy Pacemaker, crossed at 45Hz, EXs running full range. although most of my listening last night was no sub.
Not the main issue since most of your listening was done without the sub, but the speakers fullrange plus sub crossed at 45hz is going to give you extra bass above and below the crossover.

[Qman]

This isn't the speakers. It's your room. You've probably run up against a room mode that causes a peak in the mid-bass at your major listening position. Probably coupled with rapid reflections off that wall behind the listening position (causing the muddiness), and reflections off the ceiling and side walls making it sound boxy ("small room sound").

Now that you have the speakers that show you what the room is doing, treating the room is in order. This means not just absorption, but also diffusion (especially behind your listening position [if I've interpreted the physical relationships in that room correctly] and at the first reflection points on sidewalls and ceiling (if you can)), and of course bass traps.

One quick thing to try is to move your listening position off that back wall a foot or 18" as a test. If your midbass "bloat" changes, you'll know for sure it's a room mode problem.

Probably not what you wanted to hear. But this is the way acoustics in small rooms usually plays out.

Of course you can (I really recommend it) also get an AVR with good room EQ software, anything from the Audyssey system to Dirac, ARC, etc. These systems typically EQ the frequency response of the room (as experienced at and around the listening position) for at last the bottom few octaves to full range, depending on the system and its settings.

I've been using Audyssey on my old Denon X-4000 for years, and it does an outstanding job fixing some problems I've got in my listening room. Makes that little Luna Duo center a serious joy to listen to -- perfectly flat response, clean crisp dialog. My wife loves the Duo!

Best of all worlds, treat the room, then run EQ software on top of that. The problems you're describing will be a distant memory.

Thanks for your input. I did move around the room to see how that might change but the boominess/mud existed at all points, even into the next room. The room is not that small; It's about 14x23' with one end partially opened to the kitchen (its a split level house). I dont think we will be able to move much with the listening position, as this is our HT room with a big sectional couch! Its interesting too that I've had a few other speakers in that room, but never had peaky resonances in that freq range before, usually much lower.

[Qman]

FWIW, I am one these people, but my eq is set at 400hz and below(I think as it has been set for a while).


Not the main issue since most of your listening was done without the sub, but the speakers fullrange plus sub crossed at 45hz is going to give you extra bass above and below the crossover.
Thanks Curtis. The "extra bass" i was experiencing was nowhere near 45 Hz....like I said, it was much higher. Most of the issues ive had with that room using other speakers have been typical room nodes (8 ft ceiling, etc) so the standing waves were more like 80Hz. I will not have the chance to try a new AVR with EQ before i have to make a decision on these. Maybe I can take them out to the back yard on a nice day! :-)

[Pogre]

My receiver is old enough to not have a feedback mic. Sub is a Legacy Pacemaker, crossed at 45Hz, EXs running full range. although most of my listening last night was no sub. I'll connect the Bryston in next couple days and see how that works out. It will be in a different room so that should be telling. The center channel is what really makes me scratch my head. You'd think it would be pretty clear/not boomy out of the box.

When I run speakers full range plus subs my experience is pretty much spot on with what you describe. I don't think swapping in an amp is gonna make any difference at all.

Try with subs and 80 hz crossover instead of running them full range once. My personal experience with a higher crossover has been that my speakers seem to have just a little more clarity and headroom. My theory is that taking some of the load off your amp and speakers frees them up to focus on the mids and highs with less distortion where they shine. Subwoofers live in the bass region and can handle 80 hz and down much better than most speakers will.

But don't just listen to me. Check it out for yourself. You might just prefer it!

[Pogre]

Thanks Curtis. The "extra bass" i was experiencing was nowhere near 45 Hz....like I said, it was much higher. Most of the issues ive had with that room using other speakers have been typical room nodes (8 ft ceiling, etc) so the standing waves were more like 80Hz. I will not have the chance to try a new AVR with EQ before i have to make a decision on these. Maybe I can take them out to the back yard on a nice day! :-)

I agree with curtis. You're likely getting a double bass effect with the subs on. Your subs are still playing frequencies well above 45 hz. It's not a brick wall.

[curtis]

I will move the S2ex's to 2 channel in a different room using my Bryston B60 Integrated, and a decent CD player, with more proper room spacing.
This will be a good test.
What speakers are there now?

[Qman]

When I run speakers full range plus subs my experience is pretty much spot on with what you describe. I don't think swapping in an amp is gonna make any difference at all.

Try with subs and 80 hz crossover instead of running them full range once. My personal experience with a higher crossover has been that my speakers seem to have just a little more clarity and headroom. My theory is that taking some of the load off your amp and speakers frees them up to focus on the mids and highs with less distortion where they shine. Subwoofers live in the bass region and can handle 80 hz and down much better than most speakers will.

But don't just listen to me. Check it out for yourself. You might just prefer it!

Thanks for the suggestion! When I was listening multichannel for a short period, they were crossed over at 100Hz (AVR doesnt go any lower). I noticed no change in sound.

[Qman]

This will be a good test.
What speakers are there now?[/COLOR]

Some ancient old Advents! I had custom towers there before we decided they were too big for our remodel (PHL and Raven ribbon Drivers, locally made cabinets that I could never get to sound right). Prior to that I had Legacy Focus towers.

[Qman]

I agree with curtis. You're likely getting a double bass effect with the subs on. Your subs are still playing frequencies well above 45 hz. It's not a brick wall.

Again, most of my listening was done w/o sub on. And, I liked what i heard when i did turn on the sub!

[jimb]

Thanks Curtis. The "extra bass" i was experiencing was nowhere near 45 Hz....like I said, it was much higher. Most of the issues ive had with that room using other speakers have been typical room nodes (8 ft ceiling, etc) so the standing waves were more like 80Hz. I will not have the chance to try a new AVR with EQ before i have to make a decision on these. Maybe I can take them out to the back yard on a nice day! :-)

Of course, you'll have to work out what you can in your situation, but that is not my experience of these speakers at all.

[Qman]

Update:
I pulled out my old dusty Cinepro 600X2SE Amp (300W Per channel) that hasnt been turned on in probably 10 years!.. and peeled signal off the pre-outs from the old Pioneer AVR. Just a few songs in, but HOLY HELL! What an enlightenment! Everything else is same, room position, LP, etc. OMFG! Excited to try a good pre like my Bryston. Really surprised how awesome the old Cinepro sounds as well.

I'm not saying the sound is perfect, but its a HUGE improvement. I still need to tame some room nodes, and theres a peaky upper midrange i get on occasion. Tried an Enya CD and it was ear-piercing. Not sure what's going on there. And theres a bit of smear to the detail. I will be trying the other room soon.
Anyone find it Ironic how the AMP is X2SE and the speakers are S2EX???!!:cool:

[Qman]

So with only a few days left, I am ready to return the S2EX and Duo center. With the S2EXs, I've tried 3 different amps, 3 different preamps, 2 different rooms, many different placements, several different sources, different cables (my best being Kimber 4VS speaker wire and Silver Sonic interconnects). My best (I believe) pre-amp combo is the Bryston B6. I have an older Yamaha preamp that has Bass, mid and treble controls, as well as a loudness contour dial. Nothing seems to help. I've placed them on the long wall, short wall, different room, equilateral triangle, subwoofer/no sub, etc.

I cannot get these to sound what I consider anywhere near audiophile quality. Yes, there are certain aspects I like, like the smooth tweeter, (albeit too subdued for my tastes), great impact and dynamics. But I cannot seem to get these to open up as far as soundstage, or provide a smooth response or great detail, which is what these speakers tend to be famous for. I have no idea where to go next except return for refund.

Now with the Duo, I cannot get rid of boomy voices, nearly unintelligible usually. It may be my old receiver (Pioneer Vsx D812) and lack of decent digital decoding, I'm not sure. Plus when I lay down on the couch, the hi end disappears with that directional tweeter, and I lose everything. With all the hype, I really don't understand the results I'm getting.

Perhaps if I had more time, and have purchased a decent AVR with feedback EQ, I could dial them in better, but I don’t have that luxury at the moment.
I really thought these would be awesome and wanted them to work, but I am sorely disappointed.

[diesel79]

Well if they don’t meet your criteria and you are within the return period, send them back. That is what the in home trial period is for.

Do you so happen to have any in room measurements you could share?

[curtis]

Actually, it would be great to see pictures on how they were placed in the room.

The comments about the Duo is especially interesting...and baffling. I think a pic would tell a lot.

[diesel79]

For voices to be almost unintelligible something seems off.

Also, you say when you “lay down” on the couch the high end disappears due to the directional tweeter. This should only be affected if you are standing up I would think..... unless you’re couch is 10’ below the center channel.

I agree with Curtis, a picture will be worth a thousand words.

[Qman]

I don't have that sort of equipment. I only used my old ears. I do realize that im not going to get perfect sound out of the box, but it seems odd that i can't get lower midrange honk out all 3 of these speakers, nor do i get the kind of detail/resolution i am expecting.

[curtis]

For voices to be almost unintelligible something seems off.

Also, you say when you “lay down” on the couch the high end disappears due to the directional tweeter. This should only be affected if you are standing up I would think..... unless you’re couch is 10’ below the center channel.

I agree with Curtis, a picture will be worth a thousand words.
Or when he lays down, there is something between him and the speaker.

[Qman]

Haven't posted a pic before. Not sure how.

[Qman]

It's also interesting to note that the Focal in-ceiling surround speaker s i just installed were temporarily hooked in as mains L+R to see how they sounded using my receiver. The wife and i agreed they sounded great! And we both agree the 3 ascends do not!

[diesel79]

Well to each his own I guess. We all have different ears, rooms, and preferences.

If your not happy, return them within the trial period.

[curtis]

It's great that you found something you like.

[davef]

Haven't posted a pic before. Not sure how.

Please post a picture of the front of your room where the speakers are located. Posting / uploading a picture is extremely easy and takes a few seconds of time. When making a post, simply scroll down and hit the button that says "manage attachments" Self-explanatory from there.

This is really an odd situation, in many tens of thousands of Sierra customers, you are the first person to ever describe the speakers as muddy. Running the speakers full range together with a subwoofer is simply a bad idea. In addition, having your couch against the back wall is also a bad idea as that is a prime spot for significant bass reinforcement / room modes.

Based on the fact that you like the way an in-wall / in-ceiling speaker sounds when used as a front left/right front speaker - cements the fact that either you prefer speakers with little bass or you have rather significant issues with your room acoustics. in-wall / in-ceiling speakers use the inner part of the wall as the rear air chamber. When used in open air with no rear chamber (as you did), they will have basically no bass whatsoever, typically rolling off in the 200Hz range, thus not exciting room modes or more to your preference with very little bass. In addition, a well designed in-wall speaker is voiced to use the wall for baffle compensation, when not placed in the wall - there will be a very steep rise in the midrange, perhaps also to your preference.

The Sierra-2EX are very neutral with extended and dynamic bass for a bookshelf speaker, from your description of what you are hearing, you need a speaker with a more limited frequency range and a rising midrange response. These are not those speakers and unless you are willing to post a pic of your room setup, nobody here can assist you further.

You can also email me the pic of your room.

The only other piece of advice I can offer you is to order another set of bookshelf speakers and compare directly - which is recommended because you might run into the same exact issue. Again, using an in-wall speaker used out-of-the-wall, dramatically affects the performance of that speaker in a negative way - which seems to be a positive for your preferences / room acoustics.

[djDANNY]

Didn’t see this posted but just wanted to confirm you took off the magnetic covers on the tweeters.

[davef]

Didn’t see this posted but just wanted to confirm you took off the magnetic covers on the tweeters.

Excellent point, hadn't even thought of that - this would indeed fit in with his descriptions. Qman, again - please remove the grilles from the speakers and post a picture of the front of your room so we can see all 3 speakers.

The speakers ship with a thin protective magnetic board over the tweeters to protect them during transit. This must be removed, if not - there will be no output from the tweeters and the speakers will indeed sound horribly muddy. Please confirm that these protective boards have been removed from each speaker. If you remove the grille, you will see it covering the tweeter.

1973

[jimb]

This happened to me after having mine modified from early S2 to S2-EX. I sent them out without protectors and didn't think to check that Ascend added them when they returned them. That new woofer was pretty unimpressive for a little while!

[Qman]

Didn’t see this posted but just wanted to confirm you took off the magnetic covers on the tweeters.

Absolutely i did!

[Qman]

It's great that you found something you like.

I'm simply trying to point out that the old receiver is able to make an acceptable signal.

[curtis]

I'm simply trying to point out that the old receiver is able to make an acceptable signal.
Understood, and we are trying to point out that something doesn't seem to be right with the setup and environment.

That said, personally, I am happy you found something you like.

[Qman]

So here is my living room setup, (not HT, no DUO) running full range, no sub. Dimensions are 13 x 22 x 8 with half open wall to right to kitchen. I have them sitting on an ancient pair of Advent speakers from 1981 (which still sound ok!) I think you can see there is NO cover on the tweeters.
1974

[Qman]

The HT setup is in the lower level of the center split house, dimensions 14.5 x 21 x 8, with partial open to dining room on the right. The speakers are along the 14.5' wall. I am limited on this room due to the partial opening on one short end, and fireplace on the other. Ive run these full range, at 100, 150, and 200 Hz cutoff via the Receiver, widened the speakers out by 2 ft each direction, elevated a foot, and...all the different iterations my receiver will allow. The Sub is a Legacy Pacemaker.1975

[Qman]

I guess a big question I have is: Is everyone expected to run these thru an equalizing processor? I mean, should I expect honky voices on the DUO and mud on the S2EX with no EQ? Will my life change drastically with a new fangled receiver/processor with Dirac/YPAO/Audyssey? I dont have the ability to try it at the moment, and won't before i have to send these back. I just hooked up those 40 year old Advents and am amazed how good they still sound compared to the S2ex! Not better, but smoother in most of the range.

[Qman]

Please post a picture of the front of your room where the speakers are located. Posting / uploading a picture is extremely easy and takes a few seconds of time. When making a post, simply scroll down and hit the button that says "manage attachments" Self-explanatory from there.

This is really an odd situation, in many tens of thousands of Sierra customers, you are the first person to ever describe the speakers as muddy. Running the speakers full range together with a subwoofer is simply a bad idea. In addition, having your couch against the back wall is also a bad idea as that is a prime spot for significant bass reinforcement / room modes.

Based on the fact that you like the way an in-wall / in-ceiling speaker sounds when used as a front left/right front speaker - cements the fact that either you prefer speakers with little bass or you have rather significant issues with your room acoustics. in-wall / in-ceiling speakers use the inner part of the wall as the rear air chamber. When used in open air with no rear chamber (as you did), they will have basically no bass whatsoever, typically rolling off in the 200Hz range, thus not exciting room modes or more to your preference with very little bass. In addition, a well designed in-wall speaker is voiced to use the wall for baffle compensation, when not placed in the wall - there will be a very steep rise in the midrange, perhaps also to your preference.

The Sierra-2EX are very neutral with extended and dynamic bass for a bookshelf speaker, from your description of what you are hearing, you need a speaker with a more limited frequency range and a rising midrange response. These are not those speakers and unless you are willing to post a pic of your room setup, nobody here can assist you further.

You can also email me the pic of your room.

The only other piece of advice I can offer you is to order another set of bookshelf speakers and compare directly - which is recommended because you might run into the same exact issue. Again, using an in-wall speaker used out-of-the-wall, dramatically affects the performance of that speaker in a negative way - which seems to be a positive for your preferences / room acoustics.


Thanks for all your input Dave. I see now that the file size is severely limited for uploads.
I'm not sure where the idea came from that I'm using an In-wall/ceiling speaker out of the wall, but I am certainly not!

I do like my fair share of bass, and I was definitely using the Sub with the in-ceiling speakers when I was trying them as main L+R. I do NOT have a problem with the bass I get with the 2EX....but once we get past about (guessing) 150 Hz, things start to get ugly for me. Its very strange that I dont seem to get the resolution I expected either. As I said above, I connected up those ancient Advents and the soundstage opened up with greater detail combined with a mellow sound. The bass is pretty bad on them, and they wont take any power before the sound turns sour. The things i found great with the 2EX is the impact and punch, and the fact that you can feed them power and they dont mind at all, just keep sounding the same. I'd really like to try some room correction EQ electronics on these before I have to return them, but I do not have the opportunity at the moment. And I can tell you that I DO NOT like peaky midrange, in fact I'd rather have the inverse if given the choice. Very frustrated.

[curtis]

I guess a big question I have is: Is everyone expected to run these thru an equalizing processor? I mean, should I expect honky voices on the DUO and mud on the S2EX with no EQ? Will my life change drastically with a new fangled receiver/processor with Dirac/YPAO/Audyssey? I dont have the ability to try it at the moment, and won't before i have to send these back. I just hooked up those 40 year old Advents and am amazed how good they still sound compared to the S2ex! Not better, but smoother in most of the range.
No...you shouldn't expect to run it through an EQ.

The other thing is you could just really like what you have been using in the past.

[Qman]

No...you shouldn't expect to run it through an EQ.

The other thing is you could just really like what you have been using in the past.

I'm obviously not happy with what ive got or i wouldn't be looking for nww speakers! Let's put it this way: The most detailed speaker ive ever heard is the VMPS RM40. But it lacked impact. The S2EX is the opposite. It has awesome impact but lacks in detail and smoothness. Granted we're comparing tower vs bookshelf, but id expect detail and smoothness just the same.

[diesel79]

My EX’s are extremely clear and detailed. Everyone that I demo my set up for cannot believe the sound that comes from these bookshelves. Your experience with them is not what I would call the norm.

At any rate, nobody is trying to convince your ears otherwise. If you don’t like them, you don’t like them. Send them back and move on and hopefully find something you like.

[davef]

So here is my living room setup, (not HT, no DUO) running full range, no sub. Dimensions are 13 x 22 x 8 with half open wall to right to kitchen. I have them sitting on an ancient pair of Advent speakers from 1981 (which still sound ok!) I think you can see there is NO cover on the tweeters.
1974

Thanks for posting this picture. Placing a speaker on top of another speaker is generally a very bad idea. The speaker that is active (in this case, the EX) will cause the inactive speaker to resonate sympathetically (especially the large woofer in those old Advents). That sympathetic vibration from the inactive speaker will, in fact, produce sound. I recommend you place the speakers on dedicated stands and move those old Advents out of the room, or at least to the opposite side of the room.

That stated - and as others have commented, your characterization of the performance of these speakers is the polar opposite from the many thousands of other customers who own them. It sounds to me like you are simply used to a specific type of sound signature that is not neutral, and that is OK.

Let me ask you a few more questions:

1. Are you using CD's as your source material? If not, what is your source material?

2. what amp / receiver combination are you using in this room?

3. From your listening position, try standing up, sitting down - walking left/right a bit. Is there a particular position where all of a sudden, things sound more detailed to you?

With regard to the 30-day guarantee, I am happy to extend this for you since we are trying some things out, so please feel free to give a new receiver a try if you like - or try some different bookshelf speakers to directly compare (but it is important to have the speakers in the same position when comparing)

[mikesiskav]

Ditto on the speaker stands. Placing them on top of those large Advent speakers is creating a baffle surface which will boost the woofer frequencies which can lead to boominess and muddy sound. Same thing applies in your HT setup. Not to mention the large subwoofer sitting so close to the speaker.

[djDANNY]

Thanks for posting this picture. Placing a speaker on top of another speaker is generally a very bad idea. The speaker that is active (in this case, the EX) will cause the inactive speaker to resonate sympathetically (especially the large woofer in those old Advents). That sympathetic vibration from the inactive speaker will, in fact, produce sound.


I’ve never heard of this before. Is it the physical vibrations from the active cabinet that’s causing the inactive cabinet to resonate? Or is it the sound waves being produced by the active speaker that is causing some sort of resonance in the inactive speaker?

If it’s the first, then wouldn’t isolators between the two speakers address that issue? If it’s the latter, then does it mean when I’m listening to 2 channel music and my center channel is off that it’s coloring the sound?

[davef]

I’ve never heard of this before. Is it the physical vibrations from the active cabinet that’s causing the inactive cabinet to resonate? Or is it the sound waves being produced by the active speaker that is causing some sort of resonance in the inactive speaker?

If it’s the first, then wouldn’t isolators between the two speakers address that issue? If it’s the latter, then does it mean when I’m listening to 2 channel music and my center channel is off that it’s coloring the sound?

It is a combination of both cabinet resonance being transferred as well as soundwaves. Proper terminology is sympathetic resonance. and there are dozens of classic examples of this by doing a google search on the phenomenon. Most common example is the classic "tuning fork" example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxRkOQmzLgo

With speakers, as in placing one speaker on top of another with one speaker not being active and being used as a stand, the effect is quite audible and measurable. One way to minimize (but not completely reduce) this effect is to short together the positive and negative inputs of the INACTIVE speaker.

Here is another good video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=98&v=pr_8-lFeqbk&feature=emb_logo

This is probably the best example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sojjAyC5RzA

[Qman]

Folks, ive got some apologizing to do. I moved the ex's back down to the HT and on the receiver. Started playing with the sub settings. I then realized i had the sub dial set to180degrees out of phase! Next, i also realized i had sub set xover set too low. (You can set the xover as low as 45Hz). Night and day. My receiver wont xover lower than 100. So obviously i had a gap. Biggest downside is the bass starts to become directional at higher freqs. Still.lacking some detail, but smoothness is much nicer. Would be nice to have some better resolution in the 150-200 range...a problem for smaller woofers i suspect? Something the Legacy Focus excelled at, given 3 12-inch drivers per side!
Now, onto the duo....i pulled it away from the TV about 2 ft, and a lot of the boomyness disappeared. Strange since these are supposedly wall mountable. Question is, how to position it properly without being in the middle of the room? Something an EQ should resolve i guess! I

Next, is my sources. My excellent Linn multi player died a few years ago. So ive been using 2 different dvd players for cds. But their audio outputs can be set for varios audio effects and surround duties. I wasnt sure i had the proper setting on either one. So now im playing a cheap portable player! I need to spend more $$!
To answer Daves question on amp, i was using my Bryston B60 for 2 ch.
Sorry again.

[Qman]

Ditto on the speaker stands. Placing them on top of those large Advent speakers is creating a baffle surface which will boost the woofer frequencies which can lead to boominess and muddy sound. Same thing applies in your HT setup. Not to mention the large subwoofer sitting so close to the speaker.

If you're playing the same signal thru the sub as the main speaker, how ca this be an issue? After all, you see tons on people placing their bookshelf directly on top of a pair of subs...which is ideal to me since bass becomes directional as freq rises. And with the exs, i think ideally you really want to cross fairly hi, as im discovering.

[djDANNY]

Folks, ive got some apologizing to do. I moved the ex's back down to the HT and on the receiver. Started playing with the sub settings. I then realized i had the sub dial set to180degrees out of phase! Next, i also realized i had sub set xover set too low. (You can set the xover as low as 45Hz). Night and day. My receiver wont xover lower than 100. So obviously i had a gap. Biggest downside is the bass starts to become directional at higher freqs. Still.lacking some detail, but smoothness is much nicer. Would be nice to have some better resolution in the 150-200 range...a problem for smaller woofers i suspect? Something the Legacy Focus excelled at, given 3 12-inch drivers per side!
Now, onto the duo....i pulled it away from the TV about 2 ft, and a lot of the boomyness disappeared. Strange since these are supposedly wall mountable. Question is, how to position it properly without being in the middle of the room? Something an EQ should resolve i guess! I

Next, is my sources. My excellent Linn multi player died a few years ago. So ive been using 2 different dvd players for cds. But their audio outputs can be set for varios audio effects and surround duties. I wasnt sure i had the proper setting on either one. So now im playing a cheap portable player! I need to spend more $$!
To answer Daves question on amp, i was using my Bryston B60 for 2 ch.
Sorry again.

My guess is you have speaker-subwoofer integration issues. Likely your delay settings aren’t optimized and you have poor response in the crossover region. Given that you have no measurement equipment or auto EQ on your receiver this wouldn’t surprise me. Maybe moving the center out fixed some of the delay issues, but you really need measurement gear to get this set up properly and know what’s going on.

[davef]

If you're playing the same signal thru the sub as the main speaker, how ca this be an issue? After all, you see tons on people placing their bookshelf directly on top of a pair of subs...which is ideal to me since bass becomes directional as freq rises. And with the exs, i think ideally you really want to cross fairly hi, as im discovering.

This is incorrect, soundwave reflection and diffraction from the Sierra-2EX has nothing to do with what frequencies the subwoofer is playing. It has to do with the large physical surface that the subwoofer creates sitting right next to the speaker as you have it. Baffle compensation is not needed in a subwoofer as the wavelengths being produced by a subwoofer are typically a minimum of 15 feet long - far longer than any baffle. What mike is trying to explain is that any large surface like that being next to or below the speaker is going to create a very large reflection, as well as throw off the delicate baffle compensation designed into the speaker, and this directly affects midrange.

This is not the same issue I mentioned about placing your speakers on top of the old Advent speakers, that is sympathetic resonance - yet another no-no.


After all, you see tons on people placing their bookshelf directly on top of a pair of subs..

No, the vast majority of audio hobbyists and professionals do not place their speakers directly on top of subwoofers. It is never recommended to do this for the reasons already mentioned, in fact - the ideal subwoofer location is usually never where the speakers are placed.


And with the exs, i think ideally you really want to cross fairly hi, as im discovering.

Not really, I generally recommend crossing the EX's anywhere between 60-80Hz. Unfortunately, your current receiver does not have this capability as 100Hz is the lowest it offers. And with that, assuming you have your subwoofer properly connected to the receiver using the subwoofer output on the back of the receiver, if you set the crossover in the receiver to 100Hz, the receiver will send 100Hz and up to the speakers and 100Hz and lower to the subwoofer (not precisely, but in theory). This means that the low pass filter adjustment on the back of your subwoofer should be set to the highest setting, thus allowing the receiver to set both the frequency and slope for the sub and speakers.

If you get a chance, please post a picture of the back of your subwoofer - it would be most helpful.

The general science of audio, especially speakers - has changed quite a bit since the old "audiophile" days. Major advancements in measurement technology allows engineers and even hobbyists to visualize what they are hearing and with experimentation, fully optimize speaker and subwoofer locations to achieve accurate sound. It simply can not be done by one's ear.

You would benefit greatly by taking some room measurements to see what is going on and help choose the optimum crossover point (although your receiver is greatly limited in this regard as 100Hz is just too high)

I think making the investment into a modern receiver, one with the capability of taking measurements and applying compensation (Audyssey, DIRAC etc.) would greatly benefit you. This is not about applying EQ to the speakers, it is about measuring the acoustics of your room and your chosen placement, and compensating for many of the various room / placement / sub-speaker integration issues you are coming across.

Most of our Sierra-2EX customers only use room-EQ from the Schroeder frequency and downward (about 200Hz and lower) as proper bass, esp with a subwoofer, is most critical to get right. Too much bass in the room and the speakers will sound muddy, less detailed. Too little bass and they will sound bright, harsh - clinical.

[Qman]

No, the vast majority of audio hobbyists and professionals do not place their speakers directly on top of subwoofers. It is never recommended to do this for the reasons already mentioned, in fact - the ideal subwoofer location is usually never where the speakers are placed.


Great info Dave! thank you. However i fail to see the difference between placing the speaker on top of the sub, and a tower speaker with the sub already in the same box? Plus , as bass (and its harmonics) become directional as frequency increases, its always been said to keep the sub close to, or centered between the stereo pair. Or, when using 2 subs, close to L+R. I understand that sub placement affects room interaction, but i also understand you need a centered soundstage. Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

[white_darren]

However i fail to see the difference between placing the speaker on top of the sub, and a tower speaker with the sub already in the same box?
One was designed to account for a known baffle interaction, the other wasn't.


Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

I have my single Rythmik E15HP placed 3+ feet to the left of my left main and crossed at 80. Perhaps not ideal but it works for my room and I can not audibly locate it (although it does start to localize with crossover at 90). The reason you can tell where yours is positioned is that it is playing frequencies at and above 90 Hz which are easily localized. This is due to your crossover setup. Since your receiver crossover is set at 100, it is still feeding the sub plenty of signal above 100 due to the crossover having some roll off instead of being a hard cut. Similarly, even though the sub is set for 90, it's still allowing higher frequencies to pass albeit at a lower level.

[Mag_Neato]

Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

I always had sub integration issues until I put my Rythmik into the system. The Direct Servo design is definitely a game changer. I had a friend over to hear the system last year. He has a very sensitive ear and can pick out things I believe he's imagining sometimes! Well, He turned his head around at me with his jaw on the floor. He was amazed that he could not differentiate where the mains stopped and sub took over nor pick out where the sound was originating. I use an 80hz crossover.

[tkrae11]

Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

Don't underestimate the power of the mind-- When you know where the sub is placed because you can see it, the brain can make you think sounds are coming from that direction.

Also, sounds don't usually come from the sub only, but from the main speakers + the sub, the higher frequency sounds that are produced from the main speakers will be localized and can make you think the sub is also in that direction.

Also, your sub could be making noises that it shouldn't and those noises might be localized.

There could be other reasons too, but that's what I can think of.

-Tom K

[Qman]

One was designed to account for a known baffle interaction, the other wasn't.


That WAS one thought i had! So by this logic, as long as you put a (narrow) spacer of some sort between the speaker and the sub, it should be ok?...and it is of sufficient height? Of course i cant do that with my sub because its already 4+ft tall.

[white_darren]

That WAS one thought i had! So by this logic, as long as you put a (narrow) spacer of some sort between the speaker and the sub, it should be ok?...and it is of sufficient height? Of course i cant do that with my sub because its already 4+ft tall.

I'm not quite following your spacer suggestion. The baffle effect is really a function of wavelength (hence frequency) relative to the geometry (shape and dimension) of the surface those waves are bouncing off of. Once the drivers and geometry are set, baffle effects can be minimized through careful tuning of the crossover.

EDIT: hopefully obvious is the fact that the only compensation available for external surfaces such as table tops, shelves, walls, furniture and subs is physical placement (distance and/or angle).

[curtis]

However i fail to see the difference between placing the speaker on top of the sub, and a tower speaker with the sub already in the same box?
Just to address this...
Because some manufacturers put a sub driver in a tower speaker does not mean it is the best practice.
As mentioned before, in a room, the best location for the sub is rarely the same as the other aspects of the sound.

[billy p]

Just to address this...
Because some manufacturers put a sub driver in a tower speaker does not mean it is the best practice.
As mentioned before, in a room, the best location for the sub is rarely the same as the other aspects of the sound.

In other words...if it looks good...it won't sound good. :)

[davef]

Great info Dave! thank you. However i fail to see the difference between placing the speaker on top of the sub, and a tower speaker with the sub already in the same box?

Because the speaker with the sub already in the same box has the size of the front baffle already compensated for in the baffle step compensation network of that speaker's crossover, or at least - in any well designed speaker...


Plus , as bass (and its harmonics) become directional as frequency increases, its always been said to keep the sub close to, or centered between the stereo pair. Or, when using 2 subs, close to L+R.

No, that's late 1980's theory on subwoofer placement, and it's been proven completely wrong. Yes, frequencies above 80Hz become directional, but modern subwoofers are generally not going to be playing much, if anything above 80Hz. You need to understand that the wavelengths produced by your subwoofer are typically longer than your room itself, as such - there is no directionality regardless of where the sub is placed in the room - and the ideal placement in any room is where the sub least excites room modes. Many customers prefer to place the sub on the opposite side of the room, or just to the left or right side of the couch. It is always best to spend the time to find the proper subwoofer location for your room. Doing so is easy, and the easiest procedure is the "subwoofer crawl".

https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/crawling-for-bass-subwoofer-placement


Or, when using 2 subs, close to L+R. I understand that sub placement affects room interaction, but i also understand you need a centered soundstage.

With proper subwoofer integration and crossover, the sub has zero effect on soundstage and simply sounds like the bass is coming from the 2 speakers. Plus, nearly all music and movie soundtracks record bass in mono - not stereo or multi-channel. Reason for this is obvious, because it is non-directional and stereo/muti-channel bass below 80Hz makes no sense. Therefore, because it is monaural - it can not effect your soundstage. The bass harmonics you mention, will mostly be frequencies above 80Hz and produced by the speakers, not the sub.


Even with my sub set at 65, i can tell where it is! (now everyone is gonna tell me i need a new sub) Also to note is that my sub max setting is 90Hz.

There are a few possibilities for this. Your subwoofer is quite old and I am unable to find even a shred of information on it. Low pass filters are not brick walls, depending on the slope of the LP filter in your subwoofer, even setting it to 65Hz can still mean that plenty of information above 80Hz is getting through. Modern subwoofers, as well as receivers/processors use a very steep low pass filter slope (typically 24dB/octave or even 36dB/octave). The low pass filter slope in your subwoofer might only be 12dB/octave, or even worse - 6dB/octave.

The other possibility is that your subwoofer is causing items close to it to rattle - thus producing sound that will be quite directional. You might not notice this rattle, but it will give away the subwoofer location every time. One way to test for this is to see if the sub becomes more directional as you increase your volume - if it does, there you have it.

Do you have specifications on your subwoofer that you can share?

[davef]

That WAS one thought i had! So by this logic, as long as you put a (narrow) spacer of some sort between the speaker and the sub, it should be ok?...and it is of sufficient height? Of course i cant do that with my sub because its already 4+ft tall.

I understand the thought process to come to this conclusion, but this is not how it works. Sound waves and light waves are very similar. Shine a flashlight down a board, notice the pattern of light. Take the same board, break it in half and separate the 2 by an inch or two creating a small space between them (your spacer). Does that small space between the 2 boards stop the light waves from hitting the second board?

In your example, sound waves that are longer than the space are simply going to pass right over this, waves that are shorter, are going to diffract (change direction).. Adding a small space like this actually makes things worse... Keep large obstacles away from your speakers, if at all possible.

[Qman]

Just to address this...
Because some manufacturers put a sub driver in a tower speaker does not mean it is the best practice.
As mentioned before, in a room, the best location for the sub is rarely the same as the other aspects of the sound.

If you expect the woofer(s) in a tower speaker to play below say 80Hz, then it IS acting as the subwoofer, relative to our discussion here with regards to bookshelf speakers. How is this different than Ascend towers running full range?

[Qman]

I understand the thought process to come to this conclusion, but this is not how it works. Sound waves and light waves are very similar. Shine a flashlight down a board, notice the pattern of light. Take the same board, break it in half and separate the 2 by an inch or two creating a small space between them (your spacer). Does that small space between the 2 boards stop the light waves from hitting the second board?

In your example, sound waves that are longer than the space are simply going to pass right over this, waves that are shorter, are going to diffract (change direction).. Adding a small space like this actually makes things worse... Keep large obstacles away from your speakers, if at all possible.
So what is the difference between a floor speaker stand (spacer) and a speaker stand (spacer) that sits on top of a sub... lets say by 2-3 feet above the sub? Are you saying that there should be nothing besides the smallest speaker stand possible for many feet in all directions around the speaker? That's just not going to be possible for most of us!
So, if you look at my pic of the HT setup where the speakers are sitting on the stand, you're saying this is not a good spot because of all the surface area below the speaker, And the TV panel beside it?
And what about the Duo? I see it placed in cabinets, against walls, etc...clearly it isnt designed to be isolated on a stand....so where should it be? It seems better as i pulled it away from the TV and actuallly set it on the 2ex box in front of the TV....but still boomy/boxy. Hoping that is all in my reciever.

[Qman]

finally able to get a pic of the control panel of my Sub...I have a splitter cable coming from the receiver to both of the RCA jacks, (removed for picture clarity) 1979

[davef]

If you expect the woofer(s) in a tower speaker to play below say 80Hz, then it IS acting as the subwoofer, relative to our discussion here with regards to bookshelf speakers. How is this different than Ascend towers running full range?

Because in the context of this discussion, we are discussing baffle step compensation and the problems created when you place a bookshelf speaker on top of a baffle that is considerably wider than the front baffle of the speaker. The difference with a well designed tower speaker and placing a bookshelf speaker on top of a such a large object is that out tower speaker has the proper amount of baffle step compensation to correct for the baffle size of the speaker (which doesn't change).

In your scenario, the bookshelf speaker has the proper amount of BSC to accommodate for the width of that speaker, - by placing the speaker on top of such a large baffle, you are increasing the front baffle width, for which the BSC circuit in the crossover is not optimized for. This will affect upper bass and midrange performance.

Since it doesn't seem like you are fully understanding what baffle step compensation is, I suggest googling it.

[davef]

So what is the difference between a floor speaker stand (spacer) and a speaker stand (spacer) that sits on top of a sub... lets say by 2-3 feet above the sub? Are you saying that there should be nothing besides the smallest speaker stand possible for many feet in all directions around the speaker? That's just not going to be possible for most of us!
So, if you look at my pic of the HT setup where the speakers are sitting on the stand, you're saying this is not a good spot because of all the surface area below the speaker, And the TV panel beside it?
And what about the Duo? I see it placed in cabinets, against walls, etc...clearly it isnt designed to be isolated on a stand....so where should it be? It seems better as i pulled it away from the TV and actuallly set it on the 2ex box in front of the TV....but still boomy/boxy. Hoping that is all in my reciever.

As you likely have noticed, nearly every speaker stand option out there has a width that is smaller than the speaker being placed on it. Besides it looking good, there is a reason for this that I and others have tried to explain.

That said, you originally stated using as small of a spacer as possible. Now you are mentioning a spacer that is 1-2 feet. With a 2 foot high spacer that is at least as narrow as the speaker, the effects of the extended baffle would likely be inaudible.

[davef]

finally able to get a pic of the control panel of my Sub...I have a splitter cable coming from the receiver to both of the RCA jacks, (removed for picture clarity) 1979

Thanks for posting this. I do not see an adjustable low pass filter on this subwoofer. I see 2 options, either 40Hz or 90Hz. If you do not wish to update your receiver or update your subwoofer, your only option is to set your receiver at the lowest crossover point it allows (100Hz) and set your subwoofer to 90Hz. From there, adjust your volume control on the subwoofer to your personal taste.

I also recommend doing the subwoofer crawl as I previously mentioned, but this is a HUGE subwoofer so your placement options are likely limited due to aesthetics. Honestly, subwoofer technology has vastly improved since this sub was manufactured (1998) and you can get a new subwoofer that is half this size, likely even more than half this size - that will easily outperform this unit in every aspect.



This is far from proper sub/speaker integration, but it is the best you will be able to do with the electronics you have.

[white_darren]

finally able to get a pic of the control panel of my Sub...I have a splitter cable coming from the receiver to both of the RCA jacks, (removed for picture clarity)

Why a splitter (Y-) cable? I'm assuming receiver has mono pre-amp out and sub takes mono in on left RCA. Not sure it really matters, just curious. Perhaps it was just the cable you had handy at the time.

[davef]

Why a splitter (Y-) cable? I'm assuming receiver has mono pre-amp out and sub takes mono in on left RCA. Not sure it really matters, just curious. Perhaps it was just the cable you had handy at the time.

Splitter is fine, it will increase the subwoofer "gain"