Sierra Ribbon Towers and Safe SPL

[Pogre]

Hey guys, I've had my new towers for about a week now and am really enjoying them. Gorgeous sound.

I'm also using a pair of subs and cross them over at 80 hz, which is working really well. My normal listening volumes are 75 dB for music and usually less for movies and tv. However, I do like to crank up the volume from time to time and push reference levels for a song or 2.

So I did that with Chocolate Chip Trip, a drum solo with an aggressive kick that comes in around 2 minutes.


https://youtu.be/POdNTtDi-eA

I sit 15' from my speakers and that song (among others with good bass) really seems to push the Sierra towers right up to the hairy edge of blowing a bass woofer (midrange also). I can see them moving, easily from where I sit 15' away. They move A LOT. The word "alarming" comes to mind... lol. I don't think I heard any clipping or distorting tho. I have a Monolith 7 amplifier and it's rated conservatively at 350 WPC into 4 ohms.

Am I becoming alarmed for no reason? Anyone else feel like they've hit limits with the towers? Dave, what say you? Should I use a higher crossover when turning it up like that?

[Pogre]

Well geez guys, don't overwhelm me with replies! :p

Okay, so I've made it to page 6 of the tower discussion thread and a couple things Dave said seem promising and I've been a little bit braver the last couple of days.


Loudspeaker power handling = massive! ;) (we have yet to reach the speaker's limits but I would estimate it to be about 350 clean watts)

My amp tops out at just about 350 clean watts into 4 ohms. Not that it's my goal to push my amp to its limits or anything. I'm imposing limits and deciding how much closer I should move the MLP to the front stage.



Also, be sure to run them full range when you get the chance and let me know your thoughts on the bass response.

I agree, the imaging and detail is fantastic and many others have commented on how well they reproduce vocals. Don't be afraid to turn them up :D

Oh I've been playing them full range and crossed over, however I am a little bit afraid of turning them up due to my seating distance, which is 15'. I calculated (by "I", I mean my friend who put the spreadsheet together :p) I would need about 660 watts to hit reference level peaks with 1 speaker, so 330 watts for both?

Calculated results based on Ascend specs, for one single speaker:

Input data required: Input data Unit
1) Speaker nominal impedance (Ohms) 4.00 Ohm
2) Sensitivity in dB/2.83 V at 1 Meter 90.00 dB
3) Seating distance (1 foot = 0.3048 Meter, 1 Meter = 3.281 foot) 4.57 Meter
4) Room gain for speaker placement near walls/corners, enter 0 to 3 dB max., to err on the conservative side 3.00 dB
5) Desired additional amplifier headroom (dB) Recommended minimum is 3 dB
6) Target SPL - THX reference is 85 dB, with 20 dB of headroom 105.00 dB
Calculated values from the input data: Calculated values
Sensitivity loss at seating distance (dB) 13.20 dB
SPL/W at seating distance calculated from the input data 79.80 dB
Amplifier power output based on 2.83 V and the assumed impedance at 1 Meter 2.00 Watt (W)
Power increase in multiples needed to achieve target SPL 331.46
Power increase in dB needed to achieve target SPL 25.20 dB
Calculated amplifier output power required:
For the target SPL at seating distance 663.66 Watt (W)

I'm getting A LOT of excursion from all 3 drivers the couple of times I've tested reference level (each time with 80 hz crossover). Everything still sounds clean and I'm not hearing any clipping, but I can't tell if they're running out of steam or not and I'm kind of afraid to push them that hard.

[racrawford65]

I think this is 660 watts for each speaker not 330.

Also, from the Tower spec page, it's 4 ohms minimum which is different than nominal. If you look at the plot on the measurements page, you'll see impedance looks to be 5 ohms up to 1KHz (with a peak to about 10 between 50 & 90 HZ), and then another peak between 1-3 Khz to about 13 ohms then from 3Khz on up around 8 ohms.

I'd suggest moving closer or, Heaven forbid, turn it down :-)

[curtis]

I usually stay out of thread in regards to "reference level" because the term has lost its meaning, and I don't fully grasp the infatuation with it. Reference level was developed as a movie mixing standard for sound in commercial theaters.

There are even some old forum posts on the internet that has Tomlinson Holman (the TH in THX) stating that reference level in a home theater is too loud because the smaller space. I think he said it should be 4-6 dB lower. Also, reference level in a home theater is the major cause of sibilance. To me, this is clearly audible as you turn up the volume on most movies to "reference".

In fact, as the volume gets louder past a certain point, the worse your ears get at hearing/discerning "quality".

Mixing for a commercial theater vs home is quite different, and I have been told that not many movies are remixed for home release.

As for music, my understanding there isn't a reference level.

OK...off my soapbox.

[Pogre]

Let me simplify then.

I just want to know how loud is too loud for these speakers to handle. A max spl at 1 m would be enough for rme to calculate the rest. Thank you.

[curtis]

Let me simplify then.

I just want to know how loud is too loud for these speakers to handle. A max spl at 1 m would be enough for rme to calculate the rest. Thank you.
I think that would be whatever these two numbers get you at 1 meter:



Maximum Continuous Power*
300 watts


Maximum Short Term Peak Power*
500 watts

[Pogre]

I think that would be whatever these two numbers get you at 1 meter:



Maximum Continuous Power*
300 watts


Maximum Short Term Peak Power*
500 watts



Do you really think 300 watts continuously would be "safe"..?

It's been my experience that continuous power ratings represent more of a melting point than an actual recommended continuous max power. I DO NOT plan to pump 300 watts into any speaker continuously. I'm setting my volume limit on my Marantz so that NO ONE will be able to turn it past what would be "safe" levels. I'm curious what that is and if I'm pushing any limits right now.

Look, I have a big room and like it loud sometimes. I have no problems with my Ultras reaching good spls and quite frankly it was of no concern to me at all with them. They're bigger speakers tho. When I turn the Sierras up to the same volumes I don't like the excursion I'm seeing. Perhaps I'm worrying over nothing. Not sure tho because getting a straight answer is proving to be extremely difficult. I'm still within my return period and some of the replies here have me considering possibly sending the Sierras back. I want speakers that can safely hit higher spl in a large room without worrying about blowing a driver. To that point, the tweeters seem to be handling things very well.

I realize too this is a public forum and I'm not dealing directly with Ascend, so I guess I'm expecting too much. From now on I'll leave the technical questions to people qualified to answer them. I did also send an email to support when I posted this thread so I'll wait for a reply there.

Thank you?

[curtis]

Do you really think 300 watts continuously would be "safe"..?
Honestly, I have no idea, but I also don't have the need.

The wattage are numbers that Ascend has spec'd. If you think they are untrue, then that is another issue.

Here's my take: It is about overall enjoyment. If it worries you, and it isn't something you can adjust your thinking to accommodate, then it detracts from your enjoyment, and you should look for something else.

Another subjective data point: I have been in Ascend's demo room, and have heard a pair of Sierra-2's hit a 102 db peak with an ADA PTM-6150 amp...spec'd at 150wpc. Fullrange.

[John Galt]

Please let us know what support tells you.

[Pogre]

Here's my take: It is about overall enjoyment. If it worries you, and it isn't something you can adjust your thinking to accommodate, then it detracts from your enjoyment, and you should look for something else.


Here's my take: The more information I have, the better. Then I can make informed decisions to "adjust my thinking", tho what I'm really doing is adjusting my expectations (and possibly volume levels). Not sure what it is about my thinking that needs adjustment. I just want to protect my new speakers.

The speakers sound wonderful. The only thing detracting from my enjoyment is not knowing. I'm weird like that. I like to know stuff.

[Pogre]

Please let us know what support tells you.

Will do John. I sent it well into the weekend so I'm guessing I'll hear back sometime tomorrow. I just figured I'd start a thread here too, while waiting for a reply. I think part of the problem is that I'm used to forums with more traffic. On busier forums someone almost always comes along who understands your question(s).

[John Galt]

I wonder if linking to a video of the excursion would be helpful.

[curtis]

Here's my take: The more information I have, the better. Then I can make informed decisions to "adjust my thinking", tho what I'm really doing is adjusting my expectations (and possibly volume levels). Not sure what it is about my thinking that needs adjustment. I just want to protect my new speakers.

The speakers sound wonderful. The only thing detracting from my enjoyment is not knowing. I'm weird like that. I like to know stuff.
OK, then I am mistaken. I thought the issue was the speakers not being able to played loud enough for you.

The "adjusting your thinking" was meant as address what you are comfortable with in regards to the use of the speakers, meaning just don't listen quite as loud.

Have you measured your max listening level with the SVS's vs the Ascends? You may have and I missed it.

[John Galt]

Is an ‘alarming’ amount of excursion in the bass and mid drivers at high SPL considered normal if the sound is not distorted? Are they working as designed, and can the large amount of visible excursion simply be ignored?

[Pogre]

I wonder if linking to a video of the excursion would be helpful.

I thought about that! You might have just given me the nudge to do it.


OK, then I am mistaken. I thought the issue was the speakers not being able to played loud enough for you.

The "adjusting your thinking" was meant as address what you are comfortable with in regards to the use of the speakers, meaning just don't listen quite as loud.

Have you measured your max listening level with the SVS's vs the Ascends? You may have and I missed it.

I have not measured, no. They are getting plenty loud. Loud enough for 99% of my listening. I'm only after those rare occasions where I'll let 'er rip for a special song or quite frankly, if I wanna show off a little bit. I have a friend with a pair of Salk SongBirds who hasn't been over yet. :p

[Pogre]

Is an ‘alarming’ amount of excursion in the bass and mid drivers at high SPL considered normal if the sound is not distorted? Are they working as designed, and can the large amount of visible excursion simply be ignored?

This is exactly what I mean! Thank you for wording it more understandably.

[curtis]

Yeah, a video would be interesting to see.

i’ve seen how much the woofers on the Tower work before full range, so your video with the speakers “small” and crossed at 80hz would be interesting. I’m also interested is seeing th midrange excursion.

[Pogre]

Yeah, a video would be interesting to see.

i’ve seen how much the woofers on the Tower work before full range, so your video with the speakers “small” and crossed at 80hz would be interesting. I’m also interested is seeing th midrange excursion.

This forum needs a "like" button, lol.

Okay, gimme a little bit and I'll get a video made and post it up here.

[curtis]

This forum needs a "like" button, lol.

Okay, gimme a little bit and I'll get a video made and post it up here.
Not to add any more work, but a slow mo video may be helpful too.

[Pogre]

Not to add any more work, but a slow mo video may be helpful too.

I'll try. I'm gonna upload it to YouTube. I'm not very prolific there, but I do have an account. You might be able to slow it down in YT settings, not sure. If not it'll give me something new to learn. If you don't hear back from me by tonight send out a search party, lol. :p

[curtis]

I'll try. I'm gonna upload it to YouTube. I'm not very prolific there, but I do have an account. You might be able to slow it down in YT settings, not sure. If not it'll give me something new to learn. If you don't hear back from me by tonight send out a search party, lol. :p
Ha!
I’m not prolific in video either...I would have to go to my kids for how to’s, but I know iPhones can do slo-mo.

[Pogre]

Okay! I got a couple of videos made. Poor lighting and my lack of video skills aside I think you'll get a good look at what I mean. Might wanna turn it down a little, the mic on my phone did not make the audio very pretty, lol.


https://youtu.be/6fh9oYntVtY

You can adjust the speed with YT settings, I checked before I posted.

Okay, only 1 video per post. 1 more coming. The lighting in that one got funky for a second or 2.

[Pogre]

https://youtu.be/A0v8a-_rjQk

[curtis]

Can you tell the names of the tracks?

The woofer excursion doesn't seem bad to me. The midrange, in the least, is interesting...I don't think I've ever seen a mid move like that.

That's small crossed at 80hz?

I think the dog wants in.

[racrawford65]

Is an ‘alarming’ amount of excursion in the bass and mid drivers at high SPL considered normal if the sound is not distorted? Are they working as designed, and can the large amount of visible excursion simply be ignored?

And is the visible excursion within design spec of the driver(s)?

[Pogre]

Can you tell the names of the tracks?

The woofer excursion doesn't seem bad to me. The midrange, in the least, is interesting...I don't think I've ever seen a mid move like that.

That's small crossed at 80hz?

I think the dog wants in.

I see what looks like warping with that mid. The first video captured it well, but it's also the same damn spot where the lighting got goofy.

Yup. Crossed over at 80 hz, set to small.

I'm okay punishing myself with a li'l volume sometimes but I usually put the pooches outside when I do. They don't like it very much, lol.


*Edit: The tracks are "Chocolate Chip Trip" off of TOOL's "Fear Inoculum" and "Dead Bodies Everywhere" from Korn's "Follow the Leader"

[racrawford65]

Here's an online calculator you can play with

https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-amp-speaker-spl/

[Pogre]

Here's an online calculator you can play with

https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-amp-speaker-spl/

I haven't tried that one yet. I like to play around with this one. It assumes 8 ohms tho so I deduct 3 dB sensitivity for the 4 ohm Sierra towers.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

[racrawford65]

4 ohm's is minimum Impedance for the Towers. If you look at the graphs, the impedance is higher than that as you get above 20 hz. I wouldn't assume 4 ohms whilst doing your power calculations.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/srtmeas.html

[racrawford65]

Using the calculator I linked, and 200 WPC for your Monolith (which is what I believe it is into 8 ohms), at 15 feet you can achieve 99 dB, 10 feet 102 dB, and 5 feet 108 dB.

I'm about 9' from my Towers, driving them with a Rogue Atlas Magnum II Tube Amp (100 wpc). Listening to vinyl, they are loud at -30 on my MRX720. I'm generally around -37 to -40 for normal listening. I don't recall what I've set the volume limit to in the MRX720 (somewhere between 0 and -10)

[Pogre]

4 ohm's is minimum Impedance for the Towers. If you look at the graphs, the impedance is higher than that as you get above 20 hz. I wouldn't assume 4 ohms whilst doing your power calculations.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/srtmeas.html

That chart actually raises another question. It measures like a sealed enclosure, at least that's what I was told. To quote:

That is very interesting. It is described as a ported reflex enclosure, but it is not.

Lets add the FR

Notice there is only one peak of impedance and a very small one at that, and not two as there would be with reflex tuning. The nadir between the twin peaks would tell you Fb. So there is no Fb.

If you look there is a slight rise in output centered on 80 Hz, and then the roll off below that is 12 db per octave, not 24 until 30 Hz and then it rolls off 24 db per octave.

So this is not any of the reflex alignments. So that port has an unusual function, and seems to be behaving much more like the old Variovents on some Dynaudio designs from years ago.

The speaker does not have the characteristics of a typical ported enclosure though and it looks to me as if there is something at the origin of that port giving resistance.

I think their has to be some resistance to airflow, or deliberate miss tuning to give those results. That is not a typical tuned Qb4 box by a long shot.

[John Galt]

Mine look just like that on some tracks when pushed hard. I'd still like to know if this is normal or potentially harmful.

My old B&W 683 S2s never had this much excursion, but also don't sound as good...not that that means anything.

[Pogre]

Mine look just like that on some tracks when pushed hard. I'd still like to know if this is normal or potentially harmful.

My old B&W 683 S2s never had this much excursion, but also don't sound as good...not that that means anything.

That's where I'm at. I've never had speakers exhibit that much extension before. The 6" mids on my Ultras barely move at all in comparison. Kinda apples n oranges tho, since the Ultras also have a pair of 8s in each cabinet too.

I'm with you, I just want to know if this excursion potentially harmful or just the way they're designed.

[Beave]

The SVS Ultra's mids don't play down nearly as low as the mid on the Sierra Tower does.

Even though you have the crossover set at 80Hz, it's not a brickwall (as you know), so there's still substantial output coming from the speakers in the 40-80Hz region. What's more, there's probably quite a bit of cone excursion for the 80-120Hz range too.

If you could see a plot of cone excursion vs frequency, cone excursion is very low, then it starts going up as you go down in frequency, ramping up from 150Hz down to about 100Hz or 80Hz, then it drops significantly around the port frequency (40 to 60Hz, roughly), then it goes WAY up once you're below port tuning frequency (below about 40Hz).

With the 80Hz crossover, you're eliminating a lot of the dramatic, out of control movement that occurs below port tuning, but you're still getting nearly all of the movement that occurs above port tuning.

So it's less likely to be catastrophic, but it's still a little risky to the drivers.

As I said on that other forum, I've never played my towers anywhere near loud enough to see driver movement like that. My neighbors above would have me evicted.

[Pogre]

Thanks Beave.

Yeah, the bass frequencies are passed off to the 8" drivers in the Ultras at 180 hz so the mids wouldn't move as much. I'm just going to dial back my max volume about 3 - 5 dB. I mean, that's still pretty frickin' loud, lol. I'll rearrange a little so I'm closer to the front stage. I sit too damned far from my TV anyway... I'll post back here when I get a reply from Dave or whoever at Ascend replies to the email to give you guys an update.


4 ohm's is minimum Impedance for the Towers. If you look at the graphs, the impedance is higher than that as you get above 20 hz. I wouldn't assume 4 ohms whilst doing your power calculations.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRT/srtmeas.html

You mentioned impedance to me before, I wasn't blowing you off, lol. They're more 5 ohm nominal with a dip to 4 ohm is what I believe you said? Very friendly phase angles too. My amp runs cooler with the Sierras than with the Ultras and they're s'posed to be 8 ohm speakers.

[mikesiskav]

I remember this topic coming up in the past. Dave said he crosses over the mid-range to the woofers at a lower frequency than what some other speakers use so that the midrange driver covers as much of the vocal range as possible. This is why the towers sound so good with vocals.

[Beave]

I should add for clarity: My explanation of woofer excursion is for ported designs. So it applies to the tower woofers. But the tower midrange isn't ported. I think it's in its own sealed enclosure. I'm not sure whether it has an electrical high pass filter or if it just uses the enclosure for 'natural' rolloff. In any case that means the midrange excursion plot vs frequency is different from the woofer excursion plot.

I wonder if upping your crossover frequency to something like 120Hz or 150Hz will make a dramatic reduction in driver excursion. You could try it, at the same levels you're playing on the videos, just for curiosity, to see if the excursion is reduced by a lot.

But yea, the real solution is probably just to back off the volume a little! :-)

[Beave]

Thanks Beave.

Yeah, the bass frequencies are passed off to the 8" drivers in the Ultras at 180 hz so the mids wouldn't move as much.

That's probably a similar frequency for the Sierra Tower woofer-to-mid crossover, but I bet the crossover slopes on the SVS speaker are steeper than the slopes on the Sierra Tower.

[davef]

There are basically two ways woofers produce sound, wavelengths that are within the piston range of the woofer, and wavelengths that are out of the piston range (shorter wavelengths). Within the piston range of a woofer, in order for the woofer to reproduce this - the cone most move forward and back no different than a piston. For shorter wavelengths - the woofer cone itself resonates (out of the piston range). When a typical transducer (a woofer, for example) produces soundwaves that are out of the piston range - these wavelengths become extremely directional (also known as beaming).

One of the major design goals of the Sierra Tower was to come as close as mechanically possible to matching the exceptionally wide and linear off-axis response of the 70-20xram ribbon tweeter, which is designed to easily handle a low crossover point (which we take advantage of). In order to achieve this goal, we used smaller diameter woofers with very high excursion and crossover points optimized to keep the woofers operating within their piston range.

The pro's to this are obvious, very wide and linear horizontal dispersion which is clearly visible in the horizontal polar response (no blooming, wide dispersion etc.). This is a key performance attribute.

The con's to this is that the woofers can exhibit a lot of excursion depending on the source material, especially at very loud volume levels. Is this harmful or will it shorten the longevity of a woofer - no, not in the least provided you are not bottoming the woofers. In fact, that movement is what helps keep the voice coils cool.

You will absolutely know when you bottom a woofer as you will hear a noticeable "bang" and these woofers are built for extreme excursion. Again, woofers are designed to operate like a piston, sometimes you will see a lot of movement depending on the source and volume level.

Pogre, from your video - everything looks completely normal to me - but this is obviously at a very loud volume level.

That said, if you are exceeding your amplifier's power specifications - and the amp is starting to clip - the distortion produced by this will produce transverse waves. (this may or may not be audible) These wavelengths are problematic for any speaker as they will cause excess movement - this is what destroys dome tweeters, tears up ribbon diaphragms and burns woofer voice coils.

With your amplifier, which is rated at 200 watts and considering your 15 foot listening distance, do not try and exceed 100dB from 1 speaker at your listening distance. 103dB from both speakers combined.

I have a hunch with that video, you are well over 100dB from that one speaker.

What device are you using to measure spl?

Also, Dolby Reference level is really just an arbitrary number and has no application for music. It was originally designed for movie theater volume levels - to attempt to achieve 85dB average listening volume at every seat in a theater and for this to become a standard at every theater. In this way, mastering engineers are able to set channel levels appropriately so that dialogue and effects are appropriately "leveled" on the mix so that the mix tracks well from one theater to another etc. It works very well for theaters but as Curtis mentioned, is not really appropriate for movies mixed for home theaters. Sometimes movies are re-mixed specifically for home environments, sometimes they are not.

Ever wonder why in some mixes for the home, dialogue is impossible to hear - or effects are much too loud? The intention was good, and it has worked very well for theaters, but it's been a disaster IMO for home theater.

I wish a new standard was developed for home theater mixes as most consumers unknowingly blame the speakers when they watch a movie and can't hear dialogue, or effects are so loud forcing someone to constantly adjust volume levels. They think something is wrong with the speakers...

To repeat, Dolby Reference level is 85dB average listening SPL from one speaker at the listening position. Dolby Digital mixes allow for a massive 20dB of headroom, this is where that 105dB "peak" reference level comes from. It has no bearing for music. Some music sources have as little as 3-6dB headroom (thanks to the damn loudness wars) - even a well recorded CD will never come close 20dB of headroom.

All that said, in a home environment - I would considering anything above 97dB to be too loud and potentially damaging to your hearing.

Hope this makes sense!

[davef]

That's probably a similar frequency for the Sierra Tower woofer-to-mid crossover, but I bet the crossover slopes on the SVS speaker are steeper than the slopes on the Sierra Tower.

Yep - we use a shallow slope on the mid crossed to the woofers, and a steep slope on the woofers crossed to this mid. Plus that SVS Ultra tower has (2) mids, that automatically cuts the excursion requirements in half, plus they are larger woofers which increases efficiency - further reducing excursion requirements at the same volume levels.

Pogre, you really can't compare one speaker to another with regard to excursion, unless it is a subwoofer with the same size woofer and similar tuning, similar filtering and EQ. It gets complicated. Our Towers were not designed as SPL beasts but I have run ours in our demo room at 110dB for hours at a time, at a listening distance of about - 9 feet in a very well damped room. We have had customers turn up the volume to insane levels at times, often prompting me in the factory area to knock on the door and ask them to turn it down a bit. We have had these same towers in our demo room, which have been seriously abused and with many thousands of hours of listening time on them for close to ten years now. We have yet to have to swap out a woofer or the RAAL 70-20xr. In fact, I believe in an early demo of the towers - I believe Curtis and some other people accidentally bottomed the hell out of the woofers when Mike (I believe it might have been Mike but I could be wrong) played an insane Linkin Park track, full range at about 110dB.

Even more reassuring to you - in many thousands of ribbon towers sold, we have only had (2) customers damage the RAAL 70-20xram. One because the tower got knocked over and landed square on the face, basically shattering the tweeter - and another who used the towers outdoors at his own party, threw an insane amount of power into them and burned up every component, including melting the inductors and resistors in the crossover. That was an interesting situation, as the customer attempted to blame the speaker and fought with us over the warranty -- that was until his some dropped the speaker off at our facility, met Dina and Joe - felt bad and told us the truth as to what really happened ;)

[curtis]

Uh yeah, I’m pretty sure it was Mike....

[davef]

Uh yeah, I’m pretty sure it was Mike....

You remember that incident? Was I right that it was about a decade ago?

[mikesiskav]

I don't remember that lol.

[curtis]

You remember that incident? Was I right that it was about a decade ago?
It might be longer...
I only say it was Mike, because I don’t have any Linkin Park as part of my demo/test tracks.

[davef]

I deduct 3 dB sensitivity for the 4 ohm Sierra towers.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

The speaker impedance specification doesn't matter in these calculations since our sensitivity specification is properly based on voltage, not power. This is the correct way to list sensitivity because impedance varies considerably with frequency. To properly determine what sensitivity to use in this calculator, someone would have to estimate the average impedance value within the typical sensitivity frequency range (typically from 300Hz to 3kHz)

[davef]

I don't remember that lol.

At that time, it was the latest Linkin Park release, you (or it was someone else) was impressed with how deep the bass went. It was very problematic for the Song Tower, but it also badly "popped" the woofers in our tower as well. I didn't own that Linkin Park CD so someone brought it here -- don't think it was Mitch but maybe.

[Pogre]

Thank you Dave.

Yes that makes sense. To be honest I have never measured spl at MLP at that volume. I do have REW and a UMIK mic tho, so when I rearrange and recalibrate my subs I'll try raising the volume in increments and see where levels are in relation to the number setting on my dial using REW's built in tone generator and spl meter.

I agree with you that 97 dB is dangerous and I want to know if that's where I'm at. I'll be shocked if I'm at, or over 100 dB at my seat with music. I've been assuming 85 -90 dB at the "0" setting on my dial, which is what I've been referring to as reference. Sounds like I might be surprised... I'm not trying, nor do I want to hit 105 dB. I never watch movies over -10 or -15 at the most. Above that is just too loud to the point unpleasant.

I like to turn up music sometimes tho. I played drums for years and one of the examples I posted above is a drum solo. That recording sounds so good and he's such a talented drummer I just can't help myself. I turn it up almost every time it plays and it almost sounds like his kit is in my room. When I close my eyes it feels like I'm transported there. I'm used to practicing on the drums so, well, a 2 or 3 minute solo played at max volume every once in a while is right up my alley.

I have definitely not heard those drivers bottom out and appreciate you confirming that they appear to be operating within limits, provided my amp isn't clipping. I can't say I've heard any bad behavior at all, and I've tried to listen for it. FWIW my amp really seems to love the Sierras. It has not gotten more than lukewarm since I've had them hooked up, no matter what I've thrown at it. I know that doesn't mean there isn't any clipping at high volumes, but it is something I noticed that I appreciate.

[davef]

And is the visible excursion within design spec of the driver(s)?

Absolutely, this is how woofers produce sound - they "woof" :)

[Pogre]

Yep - we use a shallow slope on the mid crossed to the woofers, and a steep slope on the woofers crossed to this mid. Plus that SVS Ultra tower has (2) mids, that automatically cuts the excursion requirements in half, plus they are larger woofers which increases efficiency - further reducing excursion requirements at the same volume levels.

Pogre, you really can't compare one speaker to another with regard to excursion, unless it is a subwoofer with the same size woofer and similar tuning, similar filtering and EQ. It gets complicated. Our Towers were not designed as SPL beasts but I have run ours in our demo room at 110dB for hours at a time, at a listening distance of about - 9 feet in a very well damped room. We have had customers turn up the volume to insane levels at times, often prompting me in the factory area to knock on the door and ask them to turn it down a bit. We have had these same towers in our demo room, which have been seriously abused and with many thousands of hours of listening time on them for close to ten years now. We have yet to have to swap out a woofer or the RAAL 70-20xr. In fact, I believe in an early demo of the towers - I believe Curtis and some other people accidentally bottomed the hell out of the woofers when Mike (I believe it might have been Mike but I could be wrong) played an insane Linkin Park track, full range at about 110dB.

Even more reassuring to you - in many thousands of ribbon towers sold, we have only had (2) customers damage the RAAL 70-20xram. One because the tower got knocked over and landed square on the face, basically shattering the tweeter - and another who used the towers outdoors at his own party, threw an insane amount of power into them and burned up every component, including melting the inductors and resistors in the crossover. That was an interesting situation, as the customer attempted to blame the speaker and fought with us over the warranty -- that was until his some dropped the speaker off at our facility, met Dina and Joe - felt bad and told us the truth as to what really happened ;)

Oh I know it's apples and oranges. I only mention it because it's what I'm used to seeing. Of course I expect more excursion from smaller and fewer drivers. How much more is what I was unsure of.

[davef]

Thank you Dave.

Yes that makes sense. To be honest I have never measured spl at MLP at that volume. I do have REW and a UMIK mic tho, so when I rearrange and recalibrate my subs I'll try raising the volume in increments and see where levels are in relation to the number setting on my dial using REW's built in tone generator and spl meter.

I agree with you that 97 dB is dangerous and I want to know if that's where I'm at. I'll be shocked if I'm at, or over 100 dB at my seat with music. I've been assuming 85 -90 dB at the "0" setting on my dial, which is what I've been referring to as reference. Sounds like I might be surprised... I'm not trying, nor do I want to hit 105 dB. I never watch movies over -10 or -15 at the most. Above that is just too loud to the point unpleasant.

I like to turn up music sometimes tho. I played drums for years and one of the examples I posted above is a drum solo. That recording sounds so good and he's such a talented drummer I just can't help myself. I turn it up almost every time it plays and it almost sounds like his kit is in my room. When I close my eyes it feels like I'm transported there. I'm used to practicing on the drums so, well, a 2 or 3 minute solo played at max volume every once in a while is right up my alley.

I have definitely not heard those drivers bottom out and appreciate you confirming that they appear to be operating within limits, provided my amp isn't clipping. I can't say I've heard any bad behavior at all, and I've tried to listen for it. FWIW my amp really seems to love the Sierras. It has not gotten more than lukewarm since I've had them hooked up, no matter what I've thrown at it. I know that doesn't mean there isn't any clipping at high volumes, but it is something I noticed that I appreciate.

You are very welcome and I am thrilled you are enjoying the towers. Curtis turned me on to an incredible Sheffield Labs drum solo CD that I often use for demos. It is one of my favorites and I like it loud.


To be honest I have never measured spl at MLP at that volume.

I'd recommend it. Those ribbon towers are so clean that we often don't realize we are listening at very loud volume levels.



I've been assuming 85 -90 dB at the "0" setting on my dial, which is what I've been referring to as reference.

This is the wrong assumption to make and I'll explain why. Ever notice that one CD will sound so much louder than another? There are literally no standards with regards to 2-channel mastering levels. That "0" volume level setting assumes a specific input voltage and that is fixed for the Dolby Digital spec. Pre-amps and Amp's just take the source signal and amplify it - they are not self monitoring devices, they don't measure output voltages to maintain 85dB at any input voltage level.

If you have a CD that is recorded hot, and unfortunately - so many of them are these days, - if that CD is +6dB (many are even higher so they sound louder) - than that "0" setting is actually 6dB higher. For example, if the 0 db setting calibrates to 85dB at your listening position for Dolby Digital, that hot CD could very well measure an average of 91dB.

Since you are really into this, I strongly recommend picking up a decent SPL meter from Amazon. It is a very useful tool and they don't cost much.

[Pogre]

If you have a CD that is recorded hot, and unfortunately - so many of them are these days, - if that CD is +6dB (many are even higher so they sound louder) - than that "0" setting is actually 6dB higher. For example, if the 0 db setting calibrates to 85dB at your listening position for Dolby Digital, that hot CD could very well measure an average of 91dB.


Yes, this is where my thinking is likely flawed. I've always assumed ~85 dB at MLP with the dial on "0" with maybe 5 -6 dB peaks for music so... yeah. Did not think I was getting into clipping territory, and here's why. The Ultras are less sensitive (88 dB, tho I think Gene measured closer to 87 in his review), are rated for lower continuous power and I've had them turned up just as loud. That's almost double the power for the same volume, right?


Since you are really into this, I strongly recommend picking up a decent SPL meter from Amazon. It is a very useful tool and they don't cost much.
Yes, I am really into this. I've learned a lot. Enough to know I have much more to learn, lol. This is a fun hobby and I love good sound. Do you have a favorite spl meter you like to use or are they all pretty accurate? I've played around with the free phone app ones but I don't trust 'em.

Both of my parents were in bands since I can remember and I grew up hanging out at weekly band practices. We had smaller "Woodstock" style gatherings ("The Mahoning Valley Easter Festival!") every year in my big, rural back yard. Bunch of old college buddies who played various instruments would get together and throw a weekend concert party. We would cobble a stage together with cinder blocks and scrap lumber, had lighting, pa system, a full blown concert setup and would play into the wee hours of the morning. It was so awesome. I miss those...

I grew up on Neil Young, Led Zep, Dylan... the list goes on. Yup, my parents were hippies, lol. Music is in my blood and I can't imagine a world without it. Home theater is a secondary consideration for me. I have a very strong and genuine passion for music and good sound. My tastes have gotten heavier but I still appreciate good musicianship and will listen to a variety of music if it's well recorded and sounds great on my system.

I can even tolerate the occasional country music sessions my wife enjoys so much. I can't stand country, but it's a small sacrifice and keeps her involved and invested in wanting things to sound good.

[Pogre]

Went ahead and ordered this one yesterday.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EZZ8B5Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

In the meantime I downloaded a couple of free spl apps for my phone and took some readings at my MLP with the volume set at -15. No sweeps or tone generators, just music.

1943

1944

I'll trust the one I ordered over the free apps, but if those are even close... holy crap.

[Mag_Neato]

I see several issues with that meter.......

1. It is only "A" weighted, no ability to set it to "C" weighting. "C" weighting measures closest to how we hear.

2. It only does Fast response. Slow response will give a better average picture of the sound level.

If you ever wish to do any sort of room response measurements you will want the "C" weighting with slow response.

[Pogre]

Well... I did ask for suggestions and no one offered any...

[Pogre]

I see several issues with that meter.......

1. It is only "A" weighted, no ability to set it to "C" weighting. "C" weighting measures closest to how we hear.

2. It only does Fast response. Slow response will give a better average picture of the sound level.

If you ever wish to do any sort of room response measurements you will want the "C" weighting with slow response.

Okay, I gotcha now I think. I only want it for quick n dirty at mlp. I have a calibrated UMIK mic and REW for when I want to get detailed like that.

[curtis]

Also to add to Mag's post is that the apps are good gauge to measure differences in SPL, but for accurate number you have to remember there is no way for them to get calibrated, and the hardware they run on are all different, even the mic tolerances within the same model. That said, I suspect these numbers are not too far off.

Take of video of the woofer/mid movement now.

Didn't you say you had REW and a UMIK-1? Break those bad boys out.

Personally, I haven't used an SPL meter in a long time. Probably over 5 years. I used to use one to calibrate my speakers, or to double check what auto setups had done. Now with being able to see measurements with Dirac and Genesis/ARC, I don't have the need. I'm also in a different boat as I'm not worried about blowing up my speakers.

[curtis]

BTW...I think this shows the importance to know what SPLs you are experiencing.

[Pogre]

Also to add to Mag's post is that the apps are good gauge to measure differences in SPL, but for accurate number you have to remember there is no way for them to get calibrated, and the hardware they run on are all different, even the mic tolerances within the same model. That said, I suspect these numbers are not too far off.

Take of video of the woofer/mid movement now.

Didn't you say you had REW and a UMIK-1? Break those bad boys out.

Personally, I haven't used an SPL meter in a long time. Probably over 5 years. I used to use one to calibrate my speakers, or to double check what auto setups had done. Now with being able to see measurements with Dirac and Genesis/ARC, I don't have the need. I'm also in a different boat as I'm not worried about blowing up my speakers.

I do have a UMIK and REW. It's a pain dragging everything out to set up for it tho. Part of the problem is the distance I sit. Every cord associated with measuring has to be rerouted and stretched to the limits to be able to reach my seat.

For all the measuring I've done and sweeps taken I never once thought to check what my levels are at max volume. I never did it because I always thought (erroneously) that I'm hitting 85 dB average with 5 or 6 dB peaks for music at mlp when volume setting is 0. That's why I even started this thread. I had some confusion seeing all that excursion at "only 85 dB". My eyes are opened now. I have some serious readjusting to do with my idea of max spl and start dialing things back. I really did not think I was hitting those levels.

[Pogre]

BTW...I think this shows the importance to know what SPLs you are experiencing.

ABSOLUTELY!

I cannot agree more. I was WAY off and completely ignorant to it.

[curtis]

I do have a UMIK and REW. It's a pain dragging everything out to set up for it tho. Part of the problem is the distance I sit. Every cord associated with measuring has to be rerouted and stretched to the limits to be able to reach my seat.

For all the measuring I've done and sweeps taken I never once thought to check what my levels are at max volume. I never did it because I always thought (erroneously) that I'm hitting 85 dB average with 5 or 6 dB peaks for music at mlp when volume setting is 0. That's why I even started this thread. I had some confusion seeing all that excursion at "only 85 dB". My eyes are opened now. I have some serious readjusting to do with my idea of max spl and start dialing things back. I really did not think I was hitting those levels.


ABSOLUTELY!

I cannot agree more. I was WAY off and completely ignorant to it.
Oh...yeah, the cord/cable thing. Luckily, for Genesis/ARC, you only need a USB cable from the computer to the mic. Even then, as I didn't have a decent laptop, I got a longer USB for the desktop PC. It was actually nice to be able to run all the measurements from a separate room.

Now that I think about it, if someone came up with an accurate wireless mic, that would be awesome!

BTW...a lot of people have fallen victim the the "0 db" thing on their AVRs/pre-pros. This is why I often ask if someone has measured SPL. (and one of the reasons why I used to double check with a meter)

Side question, and only because I am concerned, have you had your hearing checked?

[Pogre]

Side question, and only because I am concerned, have you had your hearing checked?

I haven't in a looong time. I do have some hearing loss and have had tinnitus for at least a couple of decades now. Some young drummers are just too thick to listen to advice and wear hearing protection... I always felt like I couldn't hear myself play with plugs in. When my stepfather died I figured out how to hook the pa system, amps and concert speakers to the stereo inside the house. 15, 16, 17 years old and almost unlimited volume...

I also grew up in a hunting state and unfortunately hearing protection was not a priority when I was a kid, learning to shoot a gun. Also worked in noisy slaughterhouse and meat departments for over 30 years. It's actually amazing I can hear as well as I do.

I'm kind of afraid to get tested...

[curtis]

I haven't in a looong time. I do have some hearing loss and have had tinnitus for at least a couple of decades now. Some young drummers are just too thick to listen to advice and wear hearing protection... I always felt like I couldn't hear myself play with plugs in. When my stepfather died I figured out how to hook the pa system, amps and concert speakers to the stereo inside the house. 15, 16, 17 years old and almost unlimited volume...

I also grew up in a hunting state and unfortunately hearing protection was not a priority when I was a kid, learning to shoot a gun. Also worked in noisy slaughterhouse and meat departments for over 30 years. It's actually amazing I can hear as well as I do.

I'm kind of afraid to get tested...
Yeah...I understand where you are coming from.

When I was younger, I went to some crazy loud concerts.

People are now much more aware of their hearing, but I worry about the younger generations that wear headphone/ear monitors all the time and how loud they listen.

That said, performers now wear in ear monitors to protect hearing.

Understood about being afraid, but I think you should. I think you think the same.

[Pogre]

Understood about being afraid, but I think you should. I think you think the same.

I do. My grandma and mom both have hearing aids now.

That's another thing that I've thought about too. Wouldn't hearing aids alter or color the sound you hear? Do they work like transducers? When my mom came to visit she didn't want me turning anything up very loud until she took her aids out because I guess they can be pretty sensitive?

For the record, my mom has been in and around bands her whole life too, so I wasn't arbitrarily subjecting the elderly to obnoxious volumes, lol.

[Pogre]

Yep - we use a shallow slope on the mid crossed to the woofers, and a steep slope on the woofers crossed to this mid. Plus that SVS Ultra tower has (2) mids, that automatically cuts the excursion requirements in half, plus they are larger woofers which increases efficiency - further reducing excursion requirements at the same volume levels.

Pogre, you really can't compare one speaker to another with regard to excursion, unless it is a subwoofer with the same size woofer and similar tuning, similar filtering and EQ. It gets complicated. Our Towers were not designed as SPL beasts but I have run ours in our demo room at 110dB for hours at a time, at a listening distance of about - 9 feet in a very well damped room. We have had customers turn up the volume to insane levels at times, often prompting me in the factory area to knock on the door and ask them to turn it down a bit. We have had these same towers in our demo room, which have been seriously abused and with many thousands of hours of listening time on them for close to ten years now. We have yet to have to swap out a woofer or the RAAL 70-20xr. In fact, I believe in an early demo of the towers - I believe Curtis and some other people accidentally bottomed the hell out of the woofers when Mike (I believe it might have been Mike but I could be wrong) played an insane Linkin Park track, full range at about 110dB.

I missed this entire post yesterday because I think there were a few that came in at around the same time. 110 dB at 9' is insane and I can't imagine needing more spl than that. I know, I know... says the guy who thought 0 on his dial was only 85 dB... I was probably not far from those levels in my living room. I was wrong, but I'm learning. I really don't want to be routinely hitting unsafe levels like that. I can and will adjust my listening habits.

It's not just for me either. I have 2 dogs that I love very much (I love my wife too, but she's able to tell me to turn it down!). I feel terrible I might have been causing them harm and should have done this a long time ago.

1945



Even more reassuring to you - in many thousands of ribbon towers sold, we have only had (2) customers damage the RAAL 70-20xram. One because the tower got knocked over and landed square on the face, basically shattering the tweeter - and another who used the towers outdoors at his own party, threw an insane amount of power into them and burned up every component, including melting the inductors and resistors in the crossover. That was an interesting situation, as the customer attempted to blame the speaker and fought with us over the warranty -- that was until his some dropped the speaker off at our facility, met Dina and Joe - felt bad and told us the truth as to what really happened ;)
Wow. Basically melted the entire speaker(s), CLEARLY from playing at insane volumes then tried to blame the speaker?! I give you some props for speaking kindly about one of your customers when he very obviously tried to rip you off. At least he came clean at the end. That's crazy.

[Pogre]

Okay, I just measured 94.7 dB at my seat (15' from speakers) with the volume setting at "0". Just round up to 95 dB and by my (very rough) calculations I should be hitting that with 35 watts and gives me about 8 dB headroom before reaching my amp's limits.

It's still a lot more than I realized, but I feel a little bit better. I'm pretty confident I haven't pushed it into clipping, tho still flirting with limits and exceeding safe listening levels for extended periods.

Do my power calculations sound about right, or am I missing anything?

[racrawford65]

Nice dogs!

I hear you about being young and listening to music too loudly. Alot of rock concerts. Garage band days jamming Sabbath, Deep Purple, AC/DC, etc. Car stereo - at one point I had a couple of 12" woofers along with mid/tweets and several hundred watts of power. Surprised I didn't blow out the rear window.

[curtis]

Okay, I just measured 94.7 dB at my seat (15' from speakers) with the volume setting at "0". Just round up to 95 dB and by my (very rough) calculations I should be hitting that with 35 watts and gives me about 8 dB headroom before reaching my amp's limits.

It's still a lot more than I realized, but I feel a little bit better. I'm pretty confident I haven't pushed it into clipping, tho still flirting with limits and exceeding safe listening levels for extended periods.

Do my power calculations sound about right, or am I missing anything?
Is that with the new SPL meter?
If not, I'd just wait for the new meter.

It's still freaking loud.

[Pogre]

Is that with the new SPL meter?
If not, I'd just wait for the new meter.

It's still freaking loud.

Yeah it's the new one, but mag raised a point about A v C weighting (my meter uses A weighting) and not sure if I'm interpreting correctly.

1946

Yes, it's freaking loud, lol.

[curtis]

I think you're fine with A weighting.
https://www.noisemeters.com/help/faq/frequency-weighting/

How does the new meter compare with the readings from the phone apps?

[Pogre]

I think your a fine with A weighting.
https://www.noisemeters.com/help/faq/frequency-weighting/

How does the new meter compare with the readings from the phone apps?

One of the apps measures +5 dB hotter and the other was -3 dB compared to the one I just got. I used some YT pink noise just now to check real quick. I plan to get much more detailed measurements hopefully by this weekend.

You mentioned you use an old laptop. I have a semi-retired laptop I can put to work for REW stuff too, so I don't have to pull my HTPC out of the stand and have cables and an extension cord stretched all across the room. I don't know why I didn't think to do that before instead of disconnecting everything and rerouting all of my cabling. Duh.

[curtis]

Actually, I don't have a laptop good enough to run anything on at the moment.

I use a 2014 Mac Mini at home, updated with an SSD...runs like a champ. For work, we use Citrix, and it works great, so I opted not to get a laptop, or get a work issued laptop.

Even though my Mac Mini is fine, I have be lusting over a new Macbook Pro, and being able to use it anywhere.

[Pogre]

Thanks for the link too!

Oh, and it's not lost on me that being inaccurate to the tune of -3 dB represents a big difference in power and really illustrates why you should always use an actual spl meter or a calibrated mic.

[Pogre]

Actually, I don't have a laptop good enough to run anything on at the moment.

I use a 2014 Mac Mini at home, updated with an SSD...runs like a champ. For work, we use Citrix, and it works great, so I opted not to get a laptop, or get a work issued laptop.

Even though my Mac Mini is fine, I have be lusting over a new Macbook Pro, and being able to use it anywhere.

I must have you confused with another reply. I have a thread on another forum too.

I use a tablet for almost everything now, Samsung/Android. I just never got pulled into the Apple ecosystem, but my wife has an iPhone and iPad. They're very nice quality and work really well. I have a not too old pc integrated with my entertainment stand and the aforementioned laptop for the oddball stuff I can't do with a tablet.

[curtis]

I must have you confused with another reply. I have a thread on another forum too.

I use a tablet for almost everything now, Samsung/Android. I just never got pulled into the Apple ecosystem, but my wife has an iPhone and iPad. They're very nice quality and work really well. I have a not too old pc integrated with my entertainment stand and the aforementioned laptop for the oddball stuff I can't do with a tablet.
My background is in IT. Nowadays in project management.

I still use a PC for work. At home, I became rooted in the Apple ecosystem when I got the Mac Mini.

I bought a Microsoft Surface Pro 3. Liked it, used it for some stuff, but ultimately I stopped using it. I just gave it to my Dad who needed a new PC...he's thrilled. My GF is a Windows person, but she has an iPhone and an iPad.

[racrawford65]

I'm not a big Apple fan although I do have two iPhones (1 work, 1 personal). A couple of years ago, I did buy an inexpensive laptop, mainly to run ARC as it was a pain to pull the PC out of the office and bring to the tv/music room to do this.

[davef]

Okay, I just measured 94.7 dB at my seat (15' from speakers) with the volume setting at "0". Just round up to 95 dB and by my (very rough) calculations I should be hitting that with 35 watts and gives me about 8 dB headroom before reaching my amp's limits.

It's still a lot more than I realized, but I feel a little bit better. I'm pretty confident I haven't pushed it into clipping, tho still flirting with limits and exceeding safe listening levels for extended periods.

Do my power calculations sound about right, or am I missing anything?

Hi Pogre,

Was this using an SPL meter or an app on your phone? I have found my iPhone to be very inaccurate with regard to SPL measurements.

If 95dB is accurate, assuming this is from both speakers, your math is accurate and I would say this volume level is very safe.

[davef]

I see several issues with that meter.......

1. It is only "A" weighted, no ability to set it to "C" weighting. "C" weighting measures closest to how we hear.

2. It only does Fast response. Slow response will give a better average picture of the sound level.

If you ever wish to do any sort of room response measurements you will want the "C" weighting with slow response.

This is correct.

A-weighting is recommended for measuring SPL for safe hearing levels but since it does not properly measure low frequencies, it is not recommended when measuring loudspeakers in order to estimate how much power is being used.

I do recommend using an SPL meter with C-weighting and peak/max hold SPL measurements. Some higher end models even offer self-calibration.

Extech makes excellent meters:

http://www.extech.com/categories/sound-meters/sound-meters

[Pogre]

Just to update you guys, I've been busy with rearranging. Particularly my right speaker. Before running any kind of setup or eq I took many, many sweeps and as I was already aware of, there's big, big null on the right. I found a spot 6" more to the right that gave me back about 3 or 4 dB, which isn't a ton, but it was enough for XT32 to do a much, much better job!

1954

That is with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 only. No tweaking with the app or my mini. That said, I made some improvements from there with the aforementioned programs.

1955

That's as good a bass response as I think I've ever had! That's with both subs and main speakers with a 90 hz crossover, more on that later. After I get that nice, flat response I switch my subs to EQ2, pull the port plug and turn on DEQ, RLO 10 and let Audyssey handle the house curve.

1956

That's where I do most of my music listening. Which is most of my listening. That's not it tho, I have other options thanks to DEQ. I've been asked about the effects of DEQ quite often so made a couple more charts to illustrate.

1957

1958

So that's what I spent all of last weekend doing! Those last couple charts are a pretty good illustration of the effects of DEQ and the RLO settings. It also shows the effects of EQ1 and EQ2 with HSUs VTF series of subs. I scooted my MLP about a foot closer, calibrated with a 90 hz crossover and my new Sierras are behaving very well, sound absolutely stunning and are getting plenty loud enough for my tastes.

I just wanted to share my final results and offer a li'l update to let you guys know I'm not curled up in a ball in the corner with melted speakers and blood running out of my ears, lol. I appreciate all of the patience and advice I was given here, took it all to heart and made significant changes along with some improvements. I do believe I'm keeping these. Now for the hard part... putting the Ultras up for sale. Man I love those speakers too, but there's only room (and money!) for one of them...