Are my expectations for Sierra-1 to Sierra-2ex upgrade out of touch with reality?

[arrogantyeti]

A few months ago I purchased a pair of Sierra-1. Initial reactions were along the lines of "these sound pretty good but..." and I never really finished the thought. I had them hooked up to an Emotiva A-100 for first impressions. I brought down my Sonos amp and there was a definite improvement in dynamics and clarity (literally, things sounded clearer. There may be something wrong with my Emotiva, I've also noticed some static-like noises for the first few minutes after turning it on). So it was better, still not blown away, but pretty good. I should mention this is all a near-field-ish setup - they are each about 4' away from me, and probably 8' away from each other, certainly not ideal distances but it works well enough.

Long story short, I blew the hell out of any semblance of audio budget I had for my little work space and brought home a McIntosh MA5300. It's transformed the Sierra-1s in all the right ways. They sound really, really, incredibly good. This doesn't mean they're 100% what I'm looking for, though, I have a couple of things I wish they did differently.

First, I wish they were a little warmer. I'm not sure my definition of "warm" is the same as everybody else's so to clarify when I say "warm" I'm talking about full-bodied mids, deep punchy bass, and deep extension...honestly I think I might even prefer a little bit of bass bloom, whatever that is. I'd say the S1 have the full-bodied mids I like, and are right on the cusp of having enough bass for me, but I wish they had more bass impact/slam/presence at lower volumes. They can definitely belt it out at high volume, but I want some of that at lower volumes too.

Second, I wish the highs were a little...smoother? Honestly this isn't something I can put into words exactly. I fell in love with the AMT tweeters in the Emotiva line and Martin Logan's folded motion tweeters. They had sparkle without ever being harsh or bright or offensive. I have the stock tweeter in my S1 and there have been times where I've been like "This is a really good tweeter, do I really miss the AMT?", and then other times where I've thought "Yep, the AMT would've done that better."

This all brings me to the long-winded point of my post. Because I can't stick to a budget, I'm thinking about doing the S1->S2-ex upgrade kit. But I'd really like somebody who has either done this upgrade, or has heard both the S1 and S2-ex, to chime in with their impressions, thoughts, observations. Based on some things I've read online I have expectations already set that the Sierra-2ex will be smoother up top, warmer in the middle, and more rotund at the bottom both in terms of extension and weight. Are these expectations out of line with reality? How much warmer will it be? How much more bottom-happy? I've tried looking at both of their frequency response charts, and based on those it looks like there's only marginally more bass extension and output in the ex so I feel like there's got to be something I'm missing based on some of the things I've seen online so far, or maybe I just don't know how to read those charts properly.

As a possible reference point, I had the Emotiva T-Zero placed in the same position as these are right now. Those had the exact characteristics I'm looking for in terms of bass and I loved the AMT. There were other things that eventually led me to give those away, and for those reasons I wouldn't personally reconsider the Airmotiv line as they exist currently, but sonically they got more right for me than wrong.

Sorry for the rambling post, but I appreciate any feedback or guidance on my journey to what I hope is an audio setup I will be enthralled with for years.

[arrogantyeti]

After re-reading my post, I do want to point out that I really like the Sierra-1 as I have them set up currently. If my expectations do happen to be unrealistic for the benefits of the S-2ex I could happily live with these for a long time, convinced that I'm not going to be happier with anything else near the price these were selling for. Also there's always the NRT upgrade that I might read up on.

[Shazb0t]

Have you considered adding a subwoofer?

[arrogantyeti]

Ha, I knew there was something I forgot to mention. I want to keep this a simple 2.0 setup. I've certainly considered it, and have tried it out a couple of times, but I don't really have the space for a sub so any solution with one is going to be a compromise in terms of layout or positioning. For instance I'd have to choose between putting the thing under my desk and eating up my precious leg/foot room and constantly kicking it accidentally, or putting it to the outside of my desk where it's basically hiding behind a cabinet I use as the foundation of the desk itself. Neither of those are a solution that's worked out.

[N Boros]

Ha, I knew there was something I forgot to mention. I want to keep this a simple 2.0 setup. I've certainly considered it, and have tried it out a couple of times, but I don't really have the space for a sub so any solution with one is going to be a compromise in terms of layout or positioning. For instance I'd have to choose between putting the thing under my desk and eating up my precious leg/foot room and constantly kicking it accidentally, or putting it to the outside of my desk where it's basically hiding behind a cabinet I use as the foundation of the desk itself. Neither of those are a solution that's worked out.

Ascend sells a Rythmik F8 subwoofer that is pretty compact and output-wise would be well suited for this use. Maybe the dimensions are too big still, but many are unaware of this this subwoofer, so I figured I’d point it out.

Many have said that the woofer upgrade in Sierra 2EX, makes it sound much like a tower in terms of extension. I only have the Sierra 2s, so I can’t speak from firsthand experience there though. If the F8 subwoofer doesn’t work for you, then the Sierra 2EX might be the best you can do. I’d call Ascend and talk with Dave. He has heard these two speakers and couldn’t easily help you figure out what is best for your situation.

[natetg57]

I now have have my three Sierra-2 EXs, but when I had the 1s, I felt like something was missing at the top end, especially after hearing an folded ribbon on some cheap Martin Logans. Those tended to be a bit fatiguing though, and the midrange/upper bass was boxy and boomy sounding. I feel like the '2' upgrade took the speakers to another level of clarity and realism and the 2EX takes it up another notch. I LOVE the way well recorded cymbals sound on these and many times I'm struck by how it just sounds like I'm listening to a real person and not speakers

[Qman]

Just a thought...In-wall Subwoofer, if that's at all possible for you, is an option.

[Pogre]

I have never noticed an amp adding or detracting anything unless there was something wrong with it.

I'm super happy with the Sierra 2s I stumbled across. So happy I went ahead and ordered the towers!

[ajhudson]

Hi,

I expect to receive a set of Sierra 1 some time this week. I should have a thought or two to share as a comparison to 2-EX fairly soon.

-Andrew

[Asliang]

A few months ago I purchased a pair of Sierra-1. Initial reactions were along the lines of "these sound pretty good but..." and I never really finished the thought. I had them hooked up to an Emotiva A-100 for first impressions. I brought down my Sonos amp and there was a definite improvement in dynamics and clarity (literally, things sounded clearer. There may be something wrong with my Emotiva, I've also noticed some static-like noises for the first few minutes after turning it on). So it was better, still not blown away, but pretty good. I should mention this is all a near-field-ish setup - they are each about 4' away from me, and probably 8' away from each other, certainly not ideal distances but it works well enough.

Long story short, I blew the hell out of any semblance of audio budget I had for my little work space and brought home a McIntosh MA5300. It's transformed the Sierra-1s in all the right ways. They sound really, really, incredibly good. This doesn't mean they're 100% what I'm looking for, though, I have a couple of things I wish they did differently.

First, I wish they were a little warmer. I'm not sure my definition of "warm" is the same as everybody else's so to clarify when I say "warm" I'm talking about full-bodied mids, deep punchy bass, and deep extension...honestly I think I might even prefer a little bit of bass bloom, whatever that is. I'd say the S1 have the full-bodied mids I like, and are right on the cusp of having enough bass for me, but I wish they had more bass impact/slam/presence at lower volumes. They can definitely belt it out at high volume, but I want some of that at lower volumes too.

Second, I wish the highs were a little...smoother? Honestly this isn't something I can put into words exactly. I fell in love with the AMT tweeters in the Emotiva line and Martin Logan's folded motion tweeters. They had sparkle without ever being harsh or bright or offensive. I have the stock tweeter in my S1 and there have been times where I've been like "This is a really good tweeter, do I really miss the AMT?", and then other times where I've thought "Yep, the AMT would've done that better."

This all brings me to the long-winded point of my post. Because I can't stick to a budget, I'm thinking about doing the S1->S2-ex upgrade kit. But I'd really like somebody who has either done this upgrade, or has heard both the S1 and S2-ex, to chime in with their impressions, thoughts, observations. Based on some things I've read online I have expectations already set that the Sierra-2ex will be smoother up top, warmer in the middle, and more rotund at the bottom both in terms of extension and weight. Are these expectations out of line with reality? How much warmer will it be? How much more bottom-happy? I've tried looking at both of their frequency response charts, and based on those it looks like there's only marginally more bass extension and output in the ex so I feel like there's got to be something I'm missing based on some of the things I've seen online so far, or maybe I just don't know how to read those charts properly.

As a possible reference point, I had the Emotiva T-Zero placed in the same position as these are right now. Those had the exact characteristics I'm looking for in terms of bass and I loved the AMT. There were other things that eventually led me to give those away, and for those reasons I wouldn't personally reconsider the Airmotiv line as they exist currently, but sonically they got more right for me than wrong.

Sorry for the rambling post, but I appreciate any feedback or guidance on my journey to what I hope is an audio setup I will be enthralled with for years.

How do you have the speakers oriented? According to the Soundstage NRC measurements the Sierra 1 within a 30 degree listening window. Beyond that it gets directional at above 5K. AMTs, like ribbons will have very wide horizontal dispersion so the sound will be much more spacious. You can try toe in to increase the HF response.

At nearfield I would suggest looking into REW with a UMIK-1 mic or a MiniDSP DiracLive box. You can definitely tailor the bass response to your liking with very little effect on the speaker's dynamics since you are listening nearfield.

[davef]

AMTs, like ribbons will have very wide horizontal dispersion so the sound will be much more spacious.

Actually, that is not true at all. Most AMT's have more limited horizontal dispersion compared to a dome, and the response also becomes very ragged / uneven. Dispersion width is fully determined by the width of the radiating area of the transducer. The smaller the width, the wider the dispersion and vice versa. Most AMT's you will see are quite wide, many even wider than 1" domes, in which case horizontal dispersion would be even less than the 1" dome.

[Asliang]

Actually, that is not true at all. Most AMT's have more limited horizontal dispersion compared to a dome, and the response also becomes very ragged / uneven. Dispersion width is fully determined by the width of the radiating area of the transducer. The smaller the width, the wider the dispersion and vice versa. Most AMT's you will see are quite wide, many even wider than 1" domes, in which case horizontal dispersion would be even less than the 1" dome.

True not all are super wide. The Martin Logans are only somewhat wider than the Sierra-1 tweeter with about half the roll off past 5k, whereas the Emotiva AMT's very wide and are flat to ~9k at almost 90 degrees horizontal.

[davef]

whereas the Emotiva AMT's very wide and are flat to ~9k at almost 90 degrees horizontal.

Not even close, where did you see these measurements?

[SunByrne]

So, I've been through all four possible iterations of the Sierra bookshelves. I first bought S1s in like 2010, shortly thereafter upgraded them to S1 NrTs, then not that long ago upgraded those to S2s, which of course caused Dave to almost immediately release the S2-EXs, and I went ahead and did that upgrade, too. I guess I'm a serial upgrader.

The S1 is a terrific speaker in its price range, but it does have its limitations. As is not uncommon in fabric domes, there's a little lack of sizzle in the top end. Bass extension is very good for a bookshelf speaker with a 5.25" driver, but there's only so much you can do there. Still, an engineering marvel, particularly for the price. Maybe a smidge on the laid-back side.

The S1 NrT is the solution to the S1's lack of sizzle. Amazingly crisp highs for a fabric dome, with the added benefit of some additional clarity in the upper mids. The resultant speaker is also more forward than the stock S1. Because of that, the S1 to NrT upgrade is maybe not for everyone. It was right for me, but I wouldn't universally recommend it universally unless what you specifically want is that top-end sizzle.

The S2 is a pretty different animal than either of the S1s. A detail-recovery monster with tremendous wide soundstage and superior imaging. Brilliant treble. Splits the not-all-that-big difference between the S1 and the NrT in terms of laid back vs. forward, just a terrifically neutral speaker. Bass clarity improved vs. S1 models at the cost of a smidge of bass extension. A hard speaker to fault... until you meet its sibling.

The S2-EX is another engineering marvel, absolutely worth the relatively minor price difference over the S2. Frankly, IMO nobody should buy an S2 or upgrade to an S2, just go straight for the S2-EX. It's not that there's anything wrong with the S2, it's just that the EX is just straight-up better everywhere that the two are different. No change in character vs the S2, no loss of those gorgeous highs, but more bass extension than not only the stock S2, but over the S1. Even better bass clarity, too. Frankly, the bass on these is kind of brain-melting for a bookshelf speaker. They really do go sub-40Hz; they sound like towers. I was hoping to get rid of the subwoofer in my setup and they let me do it. (And I'm a bass player, so my standard in that range is not trivial to meet.) As a bonus, better midrange clarity, too, but not as dramatic as the difference in bass performance. It's the S2 just turned up to 11. Even looks better with the grilles off. That this speaker can be purchased for well south of $2K is slightly crazy. Dave is basically giving them away. (Now, from what I've read the Burchardt S400 gives the S2-EX a run for the money on the quality front, so maybe that's why Dave keeps the EX price where it is so he can undercut the Burchardt. I don't know, I've not actually heard the S400s, but they do measure well.)

So, while the S1 is a terrific speaker (especially for the price), the S2-EX is pretty much better than the S1 at everything. Highs that are both crisper, smoother, and more detailed? Yes. More full-bodied and clearer mids? Yes. Better definition and extension on the bass? In spades. If you think the S1 is close to where you want to be on bass performance, just wait until you hear the EXs. Night and day. It's more than a grand to upgrade a pair, so it's not cheap to do this, but there is a reason for the expense.


Oh, and you're right, your definition of "warm" is not typical. "Warm" usually means a frequency response bump in the lower mids/upper bass range. As far as I'm concerned, terms like warm/bright/dark/V-shaped are references to flaws; places where the frequency response of the speaker is not flat. So asking for added warmth to a neutral speaker just makes my head hurt. But I get what you mean.

[arrogantyeti]

Thank you for that reply, that's basically exactly what I was hoping to read. Would you say the S-2EX has more bass impact than the S1, at a given volume? I'm trying to sound smart here - what I'm really interested in is a bit more "thump" to the bass, where appropriate. I don't want my string bass plucks to suddenly start bumping the floor, but I would be interested in kick drum and synthesized beats sounding fuller and hitting harder than what the S1 can muster, specifically at what most people would probably call "lower" listening levels. If the watt-meters on my amp are to be believed, I spend a lot of time sitting between .001 and .01 watts with the S1 in terms of power usage. Somebody smart than I can probably translate that to decibels :)

[SunByrne]

Yes, the EX has better bass impact at lower volumes than the S1. However, don't expect it completely solve your issue.

Part of the problem is probably just simple psychophysics. As the overall volume level decreases, the human ear loses the highs and the lows before the mids (the Fletcher-Munson curve). This effect is even more pronounced for low frequencies than high frequencies, and the lower the frequency, the worse this is. Since it looks like you listen at really low levels (nothing wrong with that, yay for keeping your hearing), this will tend to suck out the highs and especially the lows, regardless of what speaker you're listening to.

A lot of amps used to have a "loudness" button, which essentially applied V-shaped EQ so that when you turned it down, the perception of the response was more even. These sounded so bad when you turned it up, though, that lots of people stayed away. Fundamentally, this is because people didn't really understand what that button was for. Also, some systems had really poor implementations, so that didn't help, either. Some brands of speakers—I won't name names *cough*B&W*cough*—intentionally build in a V-shaped response, which I still think is an attempt to game it so their speakers sound better when not played loud. The problem is that they sound... less than ideal, let's say, when played at higher volumes.

Anyway, it sounds like you spend a lot of time listening at pretty low levels, so it's not surprising the bass isn't as present as you want it to be--try turning up the bass a little on your tone control when you have your amp turned down really low. Even with your S1s, this should help.

[TurtlePaul]

If the watt-meters on my amp are to be believed, I spend a lot of time sitting between .001 and .01 watts with the S1 in terms of power usage. Somebody smart than I can probably translate that to decibels :)

Each 10x increase in power is 10 dB. So between running at .01 watts or .001 watts vs. someone who runs there system at 1 watt average, you are down 20-30 dB in volume. Our ears work in a logarithmic manner so we easily hear music which is 20-30 dB quieter, but the problem is the ability to feel a beat in our chest is not logarithmic. 100-1000x less power than "chest thumping bass power" just doesn't have impact we can feel.