Would a center make a big difference in a 2.1 system? Currently own the Sierra-2EX.

[adamk77]

I currently own a pair of Sierra-2EX and a Rythmic subwoofer. Would adding a center to my current 2.1 setup make a major difference while watching movies?

If the answer is yes, would the CMT-340 SE or the HTM-200 SE work well as the center in my setup? I understand that it's ideal to get another Sierra-2EX but I my budget does not allow it.

Thanks for any help anyone can give me!

[goldark]

If you're always sitting in the sweet spot right between your 2 mains, a center wouldn't make a big difference as the Sierras image very well. A center helps with multiple seats off axis as it anchors the dialogue to the middle for those not in the sweet spot.

[Bruce Watson]

I currently own a pair of Sierra-2EX and a Rythmic subwoofer. Would adding a center to my current 2.1 setup make a major difference while watching movies?

Religious argument. Some say yes, some say no. It's really going to come down to how sensitive you are to how dialog is produced. What you should get from a center speaker is better understandability (crisp dialog), better sound stage, and you offload your L/R speakers of the dialog so they sound cleaner playing the music bed and effects. This last point is a lesser version of what happens to the L/R pair when you add a sub -- you off load the bottom end and the L/R suddenly become cleaner.

I was in the same boat you're in, but some years ago. I had a 2.0 system. It actually worked fine for movies and music. Then I added subs. Much better. Then, since I had the space for it, I added surrounds. Much better again. But I resisted a center because I didn't "need" one. Until I finally tried one. Then I was kicking myself for how long I'd gone without one. Then I upgraded my center from a Sierra-2 to the new Luna Duo center. Another step function upgrade.

If you decide to go with a center, you might want to give serious consideration to the Luna Duo. That thing punches *way above* its weight class. And it's tiny, which I found very helpful.

So I'm of the opinion that a purpose built center (a speaker designed to be a center, not a speaker designed to be a L/R and repurposed to be a center) is a very important part of a HT system.

[adamk77]

If you're always sitting in the sweet spot right between your 2 mains, a center wouldn't make a big difference as the Sierras image very well. A center helps with multiple seats off axis as it anchors the dialogue to the middle for those not in the sweet spot.

I use a 43" screen that doubles as my home theater screen and my computer monitor, so yes, I'm always in the sweet spot. I do sometimes feel that the dialogue isn't as audible as I'd like. I was hoping a center would have a marked improvement but maybe it won't be big enough of a difference that I'd find it worth the $.



If you decide to go with a center, you might want to give serious consideration to the Luna Duo. That thing punches *way above* its weight class. And it's tiny, which I found very helpful.

So I'm of the opinion that a purpose built center (a speaker designed to be a center, not a speaker designed to be a L/R and repurposed to be a center) is a very important part of a HT system.

I would love a proper 5.1 setup. Even if I had the money, the space isn't accommodating. I cannot find any information on the Luna Duo on Ascend's site. How much would the Luna Duo set me back?

[natetg57]

Here's the ordering page for the Luna. It would cost $609 shipped. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=9SRLSP&Category_Code=LSPK-1CH

If a speaker in the Luna/Sierra family is currently out of your budget, than I'd suggest waiting instead of using a HTM-200 or CMT-340.

[Bruce Watson]

I cannot find any information on the Luna Duo on Ascend's site. How much would the Luna Duo set me back? You can find more in this thread (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?6102-Introducing-the-Luna-Mini-Monitor!&p=61234&highlight=#post61234). Specifically, post #1048 shows pictures from the factory of the first run of Luna Duos. Additional information is scattered about in the reference thread, both before that post, and after. I posted pix in this thread of my duo sitting on top of my Sierra-2 center for size comparison. Most of the information you want is in there somewhere. For more information you should probably pick up the phone and call Dave or Dina. Waiting on Dave to update the website can be... frustrating? Dave's got a lot on his plate and updating the website is low on his to-do list, well below speaker design, testing, and building. Which most of us would agree is a very good thing.

[adamk77]

Here's the ordering page for the Luna. It would cost $609 shipped. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=9SRLSP&Category_Code=LSPK-1CH

If a speaker in the Luna/Sierra family is currently out of your budget, than I'd suggest waiting instead of using a HTM-200 or CMT-340.

Hmm, I don't see the Luna Duo on that page.

[adamk77]

You can find more in this thread (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?6102-Introducing-the-Luna-Mini-Monitor!&p=61234&highlight=#post61234). Specifically, post #1048 shows pictures from the factory of the first run of Luna Duos. Additional information is scattered about in the reference thread, both before that post, and after. I posted pix in this thread of my duo sitting on top of my Sierra-2 center for size comparison. Most of the information you want is in there somewhere. For more information you should probably pick up the phone and call Dave or Dina. Waiting on Dave to update the website can be... frustrating? Dave's got a lot on his plate and updating the website is low on his to-do list, well below speaker design, testing, and building. Which most of us would agree is a very good thing.

Ah, ok I see. It's not on the website yet. I will check it out, thanks!

[jimb]

A discrete center also permits raising the level of that channel a little, if you want.

[davef]

I currently own a pair of Sierra-2EX and a Rythmic subwoofer. Would adding a center to my current 2.1 setup make a major difference while watching movies?

If the answer is yes, would the CMT-340 SE or the HTM-200 SE work well as the center in my setup? I understand that it's ideal to get another Sierra-2EX but I my budget does not allow it.

Thanks for any help anyone can give me!

Hi Adam,

I always recommend using a center for movies/home theater. Between the 340SE and HTM-200SE for use as center, I would recommend the 340SE (or, if budget does allow - the Sierra-1 center).

Hope this helps!

[natetg57]

Hmm, I don't see the Luna Duo on that page.

Whoops, my bad. I forgot about the difference between the regular Luna center and the Luna Duo Center

[j0nnyfive]

Hey Adam!

A center channel may or may not give you that extra something you may be looking for. I'll play devil's advocate here and say that you can have a very fine system without a center channel. There are pros and cons. Speaker design and speaker placement is an exercise in balancing compromises.

I would make a good politician, right? Helpful, yet vague. :o

[diesel79]

I think one can get good results without a center, but if you can accommodate one it’s a no brainer to use one for HT in my opinion. I absolutely love my RAAL Horizon paired with my EX’s for movies. I honestly couldn’t imagine not having it. It adds a level of clarity that is incredible.

My friend who is an installer came over for a demo yesterday. He said he has never heard anything like my setup in his life.

[j0nnyfive]

If you're always sitting in the sweet spot right between your 2 mains, a center wouldn't make a big difference as the Sierras image very well. A center helps with multiple seats off axis as it anchors the dialogue to the middle for those not in the sweet spot.

Yup.

Adam, I wonder what could be causing the dialogue issues. I have the Sierra-EX speakers (stereo pair) and they sound insanely clear to me. With movies, music, everything. Heck, I have some horn speakers that sound good, but they are not as clear as Ascend speakers, and I have no dialogue issues with those either.

I think center speakers are sorta like room correction software. The bigger difference you hear, the more acoustic issues you probably need to work on. Not saying you shouldn't get a center, but that you may have some acoustics problems that need ironed out.

I guess what I'm saying is... you should NOT be having dialogue intelligibility issues with speakers of this caliber (in my opinion). If I have misunderstood, my apologies. But, the solution to your problem may be free. :D

[white_darren]

I guess what I'm saying is... you should NOT be having dialogue intelligibility issues with speakers of this caliber (in my opinion).

I don't think he's experiencing issues of clarity, probably more an issue of level. Depending on how the audio was mastered, sometimes vocals can be somewhat recessed compared to the rest of a movie soundtrack. If you set volume levels relatively low to tame the special effects it can be harder to hear the dialog in the quieter scenes. If you crank up the volume to understand the dialog, then you get blasted out of the room by the special effects (which isn't desirable if you're trying not to wake the baby or annoy the neighbors).

If this is the situation, I doubt a center channel will make much difference. Some AVRs have a setting to boost vocals or a setting to auto-level the volume that may help.

[j0nnyfive]

I don't think he's experiencing issues of clarity, probably more an issue of level. Depending on how the audio was mastered, sometimes vocals can be somewhat recessed compared to the rest of a movie soundtrack. If you set volume levels relatively low to tame the special effects it can be harder to hear the dialog in the quieter scenes. If you crank up the volume to understand the dialog, then you get blasted out of the room by the special effects (which isn't desirable if you're trying not to wake the baby or annoy the neighbors).

If this is the situation, I doubt a center channel will make much difference. Some AVRs have a setting to boost vocals or a setting to auto-level the volume that may help.


Aha! Great point. Yep, if you want to quiet the big booms, you get tiny little voices. Dynamic range compression can be a life saver. (Keep your wife from killing you!) :eek:
Again, though, I'm not trying to talk you (Adam) out of getting a center speaker if you want one, but I think it's a good idea to get everything working right first (acoustics and settings wise). From your 2.1 setup, IMO, everything should be plenty loud and plenty clear.

[jimb]

I don't think he's experiencing issues of clarity, probably more an issue of level. ...

If this is the situation, I doubt a center channel will make much difference. Some AVRs have a setting to boost vocals or a setting to auto-level the volume that may help.

This is where you might have an advantage with a physical center - to set it a couple dB higher.

[j0nnyfive]

I dunno, Adam. Limited on funds, always sitting in the sweet spot, and limited on funds... and always sitting in the sweet spot. Been there, done that. I would check those settings, first. Lots of systems have dialogue settings. You could take that money and put up some surrounds! :D You would definitely hear a difference, and it would be a difference that you're actually SUPPOSED to hear (here I go again, spending other people's money) lol

[adamk77]

I dunno, Adam. Limited on funds, always sitting in the sweet spot, and limited on funds... and always sitting in the sweet spot. Been there, done that. I would check those settings, first. Lots of systems have dialogue settings. You could take that money and put up some surrounds! :D You would definitely hear a difference, and it would be a difference that you're actually SUPPOSED to hear (here I go again, spending other people's money) lol

Thank you everyone and j0nnyfive.

Because I've never owned a surround sound system or even a center, I was under the impression that it would wow me. Even if I had the budget, the space won't accommodate a full surround sound system, so I was looking to add a center as a consolation Christmas gift to myself. But after reading the replies here and my research elsewhere, I think I'll be disappointed.

Also, I keep reading that the center is the most important channel in a movie because it's the workhorse speaker of the system. So if I was to get it, I don't want to skimp on it. I'll just have to save a bit longer for a full surround setup with a nice center once I can move to a place with enough space.

[j0nnyfive]

Hey Adam!

You're welcome! Hey, would you mind posting a pic of your setup? You can get a lot of good input that way. Lots of sharp audio people here, and some regular folks with good, practical advice. And a few crazies (like me). Okay, maybe I'm the only crazy.

I really don't want to talk you out of getting a center. I just want to see if we can "fix" whatever the problem might be, for free, before we start throwing more speakers in there.

Then, after we "fix" things, what you could do is TRY a center channel to see what that does for you. It might just rock your world. But, if you have some issue going on right now, we want to figure that out first. In my opinion.

But, I do agree with you that if you're going to get a center... better make it a good one.
You don't want your L/R speakers outshining your most important home theater channel. How embarrassing. :o

Okay, do you mind posting a pic? Also, what settings are you using in your AVR? Or are you using an AVR? Are you using any room correction features? (Sometimes, those features can backfire on you)

[Bruce Watson]

But after reading the replies here and my research elsewhere, I think I'll be disappointed.

Why guess when you can know? This is why Ascend Acoustics has its 30 day guarantee:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/support/30dayguar.html

This lets you try it out in your space. See how it works for you, personally. Not me. Not anyone else. Just you.

Worst that can happen is you're out a few buck shipping. But then you'll also know and can quit guessing.

[j0nnyfive]

Adam,

I researched your initial setup (from your initial posts). Are your speakers sitting on a desk? One thing to keep in mind is that, in general, speakers tend to sound better when they are not sitting too closely to lots of surfaces (furniture/walls/floor/etc). These surrounding surfaces can "muddy" or "color" the sound and also make the imaging sound funny (as in, your phantom center imaging can sound funny... not good!) Then, if you use room correction on TOP of that... you can really have a mess on your hands. (I love Yamaha, btw)

One thing you can try, as an exercise, is put the speakers on top of some stands (or stools) of some kind, and then move them out into the middle of the room away from all surfaces... disable the subwoofer... and disable all of the special room correction / EQ settings. Just run the speakers full range with "straight" power. Sit kinda close to them so you can hear the direct sound easily without getting hit by too many echos/reflections.

Now, listen to a mix of audio sources including movies (with high dynamic range), the music that you normally listen to, and also something like Chesky Records audiophile tests. Take some time and let your ears adjust. If you switch your setup around too often/too quickly, you can end up chasing your tail because your ears/brain need time to make sense of the changes. (Yes, I'm not kidding. But, not too long. I'm talking a few days, not years haha!)

This can give you a sense of what your speakers are "supposed" to sound like. (Your own little pseudo anechoic chamber if you will.) This little exercise can sometimes surprise you. Just play around with the speaker positioning and watch the stereo image come to life.

Also: I hope I do a good job of explaining this (I'm not a technician or engineer), but in general, your room correction software should not change very much about your sound. It is there to "perfect" the sound, if you choose to use it. (The icing on the cake, so to speak) If the RC made a major change to the sound, then, usually, there are some bad things going on. Your room acoustics/speaker positioning could be really bad, or the RC program/process might have really screwed up.

I don't wanna scare you with "room acoustics" stuff. Usually, there are lots of practical things you can do to help it a lot (it doesn't have to be perfect, we just want it to not be horrible). Some practical things can be simply moving the speakers away from other surfaces. Moving your chair a little closer or farther. Room acoustics/speaker positioning/etc can make a HUGE difference! I think it's said that about half of your sound quality is a room acoustics thing. I don't really know, but it's a big deal.

Obligatory thread-relevant disclaimer (lol): Not saying don't buy a center. Just wanna make sure something isn't messed up somewhere. :cool: Where is your sub? Subwoofer setup can make a HUGE difference in your overall sound presentation (say "HUGE" like Donald Trump. It's fun!). We want to make sure things are well balanced, accurate, then stay with "accurate" for a while to re-educate your ears, then "tweak" a little here and there to satisfy your individual preference.

Also, I don't mean to make this stuff sound like a lot of work, it can be very fun and interesting! And, in the process, I think you will fall in love with your gear (I know I did mine). If you are starting with Ascend Acoustics, Rythmik Audio, and Yamaha... you are golden. (You are starting where I stopped!) If you already knew all this stuff, well, okay. Haha! :p Keep learning and asking! It's a fun journey!

[adamk77]

Why guess when you can know? This is why Ascend Acoustics has its 30 day guarantee:


Thanks for that suggestion. I'll definitely consider it as an option.


I researched your initial setup (from your initial posts). Are your speakers sitting on a desk? One thing to keep in mind is that, in general, speakers tend to sound better when they are not sitting too closely to lots of surfaces (furniture/walls/floor/etc). These surrounding surfaces can "muddy" or "color" the sound and also make the imaging sound funny (as in, your phantom center imaging can sound funny... not good!) Then, if you use room correction on TOP of that... you can really have a mess on your hands. (I love Yamaha, btw)

One thing you can try, as an exercise, is put the speakers on top of some stands (or stools) of some kind, and then move them out into the middle of the room away from all surfaces... disable the subwoofer... and disable all of the special room correction / EQ settings. Just run the speakers full range with "straight" power. Sit kinda close to them so you can hear the direct sound easily without getting hit by too many echos/reflections.

Now, listen to a mix of audio sources including movies (with high dynamic range), the music that you

Wow, thanks for all the great info j0nnyfive! I've attached the photo below.

I'd say the speakers are about 6 feet apart, and I sit about 6 feet away. They're sitting on a stand on top of one of those sound isolation stands from ISO Acoustics (http://www.isoacoustics.com/products/iso-stands-speaker-isolation-stands/).

The subwoofer is located under my desk, smack middle of the speakers. I chose the location using the crawl test.

It's an oddly shaped, non-rectangular room. Shaped like below:

1803

The closest wall is the right wall with about 2 feet of clearance from the speaker. There's about 4 feet clearance from the back wall. The room is carpeted.

I'm not running any room EQ settings. When I listen to music I use the "Straight" mode from my Yamaha A750 AVR. During movies, audio is most audible when I use the "Movie - Drama" mode.

FWIW, I love how music sounds. Movies sound ok, and I can make out dialogue well enough. My wife and my kids got something nice for the holidays, and I got a little jealous because I didn't get anything nice. So I thought I could treat myself and relive the experience I had when I first received my Sierras. I thought a center would give me that wow factor. The more I think about it though, I think I will be disappointed.

I know myself. If I go with the cheaper route, I'll be constantly wondering about the Sierra 2EX or the Luna Duo. If the more expensive option doesn't wow me, I'll have buyer's remorse. Maybe it's worth demo'ing it like Bruce suggested, but that comes with its own can of worms for me :)


1802

[jimb]

If it is not already done, I'd certainly think about good sound absorbing treatment on the right wall around the 'reflection point' from the speaker to your listening position.

[j0nnyfive]

You're very welcome! Anytime!

Now, just as a disclaimer, I'm not an audio engineer. I only play one on TV. I'm learning this stuff more and more just like you. And, there are plenty of people here that know much more than I do. Now, having said that, here are some bullet points of interest, just looking at your diagram and your picture...


1. The subwoofer beneath your desk. I have never had good experience with my subwoofer(s) being beneath a piece of furniture. I always hear this "box within a box" sound that greatly colors the bass and it always made this "hollow", "boomy", or "boxy" type of sound at certain frequencies. You may be fine here, but this gives me pause...

2. You have some nearby surfaces that may be hurting your image or sound quality. That surface is (drumroll please...) the desk. AND... the monitor. I can only imagine that these surfaces are doing a number on your imaging. It's a hard, reflective surface, fairly close to your ears, as is the monitor. I don't know exactly HOW they are affecting the sound, but I doubt it's good. (Who knows? Maybe it IS good and now we will all be getting desks! Woohoo!)

3. This might not be a big deal, but the asymmetry of the speaker distances from the walls (L and R wall) might be affecting the imaging some. But, if I were to guess, I would think your desk is probably the biggest thing that could be affecting your sound quality.

I don't know for sure, that's why I recommend bringing your speakers out into the open, away from everything, and just "playing" with their positioning, toe-in, and stuff like that. Get accustomed to what they are "supposed" to sound like in their best element. Then, you can try to replicate that experience back into your setup the best you can.

Now, there are probably other people here that will probably have advice for you that will blow away my understanding. lol But, I'm trying to get you to a good starting point.

You have a GREAT system (speakers, sub, AVR). That's 50%. The other 50% is the setup (positioning, room acoustics, etc). I think you should put your attention there for a while (again?). Heck, the learning experience is worth it, alone.

So, here's what I would do:

1. Understand that you have a killer system.
2. Play with a pure 2.0 setup out away from everything (to find "neutral territory").
3. Try to replicate this "neutral territory" sound in a do-able setup, as much as possible.
4. Now, try to integrate your subwoofer back into your system with a slightly "less is more" approach. I would start with crossing over at 80hz and go from there.

Your system should create a nice phantom "image" directly in front of your screen, as if the sound is coming right out of the screen itself. (Kinda like a movie theater)

Okay, this is really all I know (for now). It's fairly non-technical. And, I'm sure others will have very good advice, especially about subwoofer integration.

Just thought of this: Have you tried moving your speakers closer to you? Onto your desk? Would those speaker pads you have work for this? Raise them up to ear level? You could always do some acoustic treatment to the desk. :D Maybe approach this from that angle. Just ideas. Nearfield listening can give you some very nice clarity.

[j0nnyfive]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b1W7QgqhR8

This is just one video on You Tube that talks about speaker placement. Pretty cool stuff!

This is called "A Master Class in speaker placement". I just skimmed through this video, and this may be the kind of thing that would help you, Adam! (and me too, when I get the energy and time). It talks about distances from walls, toe in, sitting positions, a little about how bass waves act in a room and how they can interact or interfere with your ability to hear the other frequencies. There are probably many videos on this topic, but you may want to check this out! Ya'll have a good night!

[adamk77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b1W7QgqhR8

This is just one video on You Tube that talks about speaker placement. Pretty cool stuff!

This is called "A Master Class in speaker placement". I just skimmed through this video, and this may be the kind of thing that would help you, Adam! (and me too, when I get the energy and time). It talks about distances from walls, toe in, sitting positions, a little about how bass waves act in a room and how they can interact or interfere with your ability to hear the other frequencies. There are probably many videos on this topic, but you may want to check this out! Ya'll have a good night!

I'm watching it right now and it's great stuff. Thanks so much for sharing.

Imaging has never been an issue though and I can hear the phantom center. But that's just one aspect, and I have no idea how these speakers sound overall in an ideal situation.

The photo I posted with the Sierra 2 and the iMac is a bit old. I've since upgraded to the 2EX. And, probably to the detriment of sound quality, the 27" iMac has been replaced with a much bigger 43" monitor. There is much less clearance to the left and right of the speakers now, so I'm sure it's interfering with the sound waves more.

I'll have to try removing the desk and monitor as you suggested and see how it sounds under the ideal condition (or as ideal as I can get it).

Thanks for the great tips!

[j0nnyfive]

You're welcome! I love this stuff! (except waiting for an Xbox One to finish installing... geeze, I miss how games used to be when you just plugged the thing in!)

Ooooh... I was thinking you had the Sierra-2. You have the 2EX? NICE. That's what I have as well. I love mine. Wow, I love them so. lol You have a very nice system my friend. VERY nice. Wow. And a Rythmik? So sweet. I'm a little jelly. :mad: :D

I was going to tell you that when you type in "speaker positioning" in YouTube you get a motherload of videos! I just watched another guy who has a cool video. Here's the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXohzklfwPs

This guy had some cool practical tips/tricks. I've never spent so much time learning about speaker positioning before! I went to Lowes tonight and got some fasteners. I'm gonna experiment with some acoustic damping on my side walls. I have a small room as well. I think I need to tame the highs just a little bit (or at least experiment with it). My side walls are a little close for comfort, and I know my first reflections are too close to me.

CENTER CHANNEL!!! Sorry. Just had an on-topic attack of Tourettes. :eek:

I'm glad your imaging is working! At least you have that. I'm almost willing to bet you'll hear a difference when you move the speakers away from everything (and don't have anything in your path to them). It should sound more open. Time to go check on the Xbox...

[adamk77]

That's a great video with data and science.

I've been looking to move for a few years now and have put in bids on multiple houses but still houseless because the housing market has been crazy where I live. I'm hoping that I'll at least have a rectangular room to apply some of the principles from the video you shared. My current space is too oddly shaped.

Maybe I'll try the acoustic dampening too. Do you have a specific brand you're considering? I see bunch on Amazon.

[j0nnyfive]

I am researching this very topic now. I am reading this thread at AVS right now:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/2269090-benefits-acoustic-panels.html

And this was interesting about home studios:

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/soundproof-room/

I'm just researching right now. I'm pretty pumped about getting my room treated, now!

[j0nnyfive]

Say, Adam, how about we close this thread and go over to a new thread? I started a thread in the technical area called "Room Acoustics - A meta page" or something like that. I want to continue this discussion over there and bring in as many good links, videos, information as we can get! I'm researching this subject right now (as are you) and I wanna see what kind of good stuff we can learn, including which are the best products or services.

From what I've learned so far... room acoustics is a MAJOR piece of sound quality. I want to explore it further.

Here is the thread:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?6994-Room-Acoustics-A-quot-meta-quot-page