Blown Tweeter

[Hlam]

It sounds like I managed to blow the tweeter in my Sierra 2 center channel.
I was watching a movie with the volume at -25 dB when the vocals got very scratchy.
There was a lot of static coming from the tweeter.
Has anyone else had to replace one of these tweeters?

[curtis]

-25 db doesn't really tell us much. How far back from the speaker do you sit? What is 0 db calibrated to on you receiver?

That said, have you tried swapping the center channel with the left or right channel to see if the static follows the speaker or stays in the center?

[Hlam]

Hi Curtis
It is a new receiver so I am not sure about what the 0 db calibration level is.
The spl was between 80 and 85 db at the MLP 8 feet from the speaker.
The static is coming from the tweeter on this speaker. I hooked the center up to the left channel and it makes the same bad sounds.
I have sent an email to Ascend.

[RicardoJoa]

If the static noise is coming from your front speakers after you have switched them to the center channel, the problem could be your receiver. Sounds like clipping to me. But check with Dave to have things sort it out.

[Hlam]

It is definitely the center channel speaker. The distortion follows this speaker.
It has the same static and distortion on two of my other receivers.
It could have been clipping that caused this. This is the first Anthem receiver that I have owned and the amps in it could be garbage.
Hopefully I will get a response to the email I sent to Ascend soon.
Has anyone else had to purchase one of these tweeters from Ascend. I do not think that this tweeter is exactly the same as the one that you can get elsewhere.

[racrawford65]

Which Anthem do you own? The amps in the MRX series are really good. I believe Anthem sets 75db at -10 on the volume, at least on current MRX generation. So, -25 db shouldn't have been that loud.
Assume you've run Anthem's room correction? If so, newest (Genesis)? If so, what are your speaker trim levels. Seems like Genesis likes to set speakers hot (at least 3 db). Some on AVS report trims being set to +12 db (max displayed, so could be more).

Have you looked at the ribbon in the tweeter? Is it torn/ripped?

[Hlam]

I have the MRX 720.
I did run ARC Genesis. It set all my speaker levels to +9 except for the subs which it set to + 11.
The Denon x4000 with XT32 set the speaker levels to 0 db and the subs to - 11.5 db.
The NAD T758 with DIRAC set the speakers to 0 db and the subs to - 10 db.
The subs volume in all three cases was set the same and the speaker distances were the same. I do not know why the levels were different with the Anthem's ARC.
I normally listen to music at around 75 db. With the Denon, and the NAD, the volume was set to - 22 db. The Anthem reached this level with the volume set to - 32 db.
This is the second movie that I have watched with the system turned on in the 5.5 years that I have had the Sierra 2's. I usually listen to music.
I did not notice if the foil was damaged. I will not be able to check until Aug. 09, 2019. That is my next day off work and I will not be home until then.
I am hoping to have a replacement tweeter to put in at that time.

[racrawford65]

I have the MRX7720 also.

I'm wondering if the difference between the Denon/Nad (-22) and the Anthem (-32) is where each set the reference point (as in my previous post, I think Anthem uses -10; others may be at 0). That could explain the difference.

Not sure what it is with Genesis, but a lot of people seem to have their gains set high. I'm still tinkering with it -- different mic positions and subwoofer gains (both have an impact on results).

Anyway, assume you've talked to Dina/Dave about a replacement tweeter?

[Hlam]

I sent an email message a couple of days ago. I was not expecting to get a reply today due to sending my message on the weekend.
Maybe tomorrow.
I don't think calling will be possible with my work schedule. I will check Ascend's hours. The time difference from there to here is 4.5 hours.

[davef]

I am sorry to hear about the blown tweeter. Something doesn't sound right. You have had the speakers for over 5 years now with no issues, and then you switch to the Anthem and it took out a tweeter. I do not understand why the Anthem set such a high boost for all the speaker. +9 dB makes no sense, and is going to cause clipping. +9dB boost is nearly 10X the power...

Definitely give us a call at the office. In the meantime, I recommend manually setting the trim levels - such high gain could be clipping the input stages.

[curtis]

I have the MRX7720 also.

I'm wondering if the difference between the Denon/Nad (-22) and the Anthem (-32) is where each set the reference point (as in my previous post, I think Anthem uses -10; others may be at 0). That could explain the difference.

Not sure what it is with Genesis, but a lot of people seem to have their gains set high. I'm still tinkering with it -- different mic positions and subwoofer gains (both have an impact on results).

I’m a relatively new Anthem AVM 60 owner. Genesis also set my speakers and sub between +8 and +10.

[racrawford65]

It seems to be a quirk that some experience with Genesis as tends to set the speaker gains hot. I've not run the most recent release so do not know if this is still the case.

I've had results ranging from ~ +7db to -5db on front speakers with the second release. Mic positioning and/or subwoofer gain (on sub amp) do have an impact on the measurements, obviously.

Currently loaded are -5 db FL, -6 db C, FR, Sub, SL, -3 dB SR, -4 db F&R heights. Room gain is 2.75 db.

As I understand Genesis, I believe you can adjust the gains it sets (up or down) without impacting the eq/integration.

There is a relatively new thread on AVS discussing Genesis - link below.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3068892-dedicated-arc-genesis-thread-6.html

[Fantom]

Since the trims and volume are all digitally handled in the same receiver, any reasonable implementation would effectively add the per speaker trim to the volume setting. This could be done in multiple stages internally for things like loudness compensation OR DRC to behave correctly, but this is often done with at least 24-bit internal processing (or float or fixed precision decimal) with enough headroom not to clip.

So in the end, a volume level of -25 with +10dB trim should be more or less the same signal going to your speaker as -15 with 0dB trim.

In the Denon receivers, the max volume setting is reduced by your highest speaker trim for exactly this reason. Trim levels are simply set so that 0dB on the receiver achieves 105dB peaks to meet reference levels. This makes the volume settings an absolute instead of just an arbitrary relative number. Ideally this is the purpose that trim is serving without any (substantially) measurable drawbacks. And certainly should NEVER lead to digital signal clipping. Ever.

So unless Anthem is doing their internal processing poorly, I think we're overly concerned about trim levels in this thread. Put another way: the trim level shouldn't really matter.

Of course, buggy software could cause a clipping issue. Or, even if not explicitly a trim-related bug, any other software bug in the digital processing could cause clipping. Or perhaps a bad analog part in the receiver. The trim levels may be a red herring, even if the Anthem is at fault. And possible just this 1 unit from Anthem is bad and not necessarily their software on a whole.

Either way though, really stinks to be out a tweeter and I wouldn't trust that amp/brand again.

[Hlam]

I have a new tweeter on the way.
I have not decided if I will give the Anthem another try or write it off as useless.
I may try using it without room correction for a while.

[racrawford65]

Glad to hear you've got a new tweeter on the way.
I listen to music with ARC off as I find it sounds better than with ARC on. YMMV. But, I'd give that a try before giving up on the Anthem. Really are quite good for music (and movies). If you do use room correction and/or rerun Genesis and the trims are high, you can always lower them equal amounts. It's my understanding from a thread on AVS, according to Anthem, it doesn't impact the EQ.

Alternately, you can download ARC2 and run that room correction software. The interface and tweakability isn't as good as Genesis, but it does an excellent job of integrating subs/eq --- without the funky trim gains. Can have both installed on the same machine. ARC2 is Windows only if you are a MAC user.

[curtis]

I listen to music with ARC off as I find it sounds better than with ARC on. YMMV. But, I'd give that a try before giving up on the Anthem. Really are quite good for music (and movies). If you do use room correction and/or rerun Genesis and the trims are high, you can always lower them equal amounts. It's my understanding from a thread on AVS, according to Anthem, it doesn't impact the EQ.

Alternately, you can download ARC2 and run that room correction software. The interface and tweakability isn't as good as Genesis, but it does an excellent job of integrating subs/eq --- without the funky trim gains. Can have both installed on the same machine. ARC2 is Windows only if you are a MAC user.
FWIW, I use ARC/Genesis and only EQ 300hz and below.

[racrawford65]

FWIW, I use ARC/Genesis and only EQ 300hz and below.

Thanks, Curtis. FWIW, I'm somewhat similar. I've set up profiles with EQ at 5K, 1K, 500, and 250. As of now, I use the 5K EQ with video inputs (eg movies, streaming, TV) and have the 250 profile assigned to music inputs. I've set up two inputs for each music source - one with ARC and one without - and programmed my remote so I can switch between these. As mentioned previously, I find w/o ARC a bit better for music. To me, it seems the highs are better and overall a bit louder w/o ARC.

[Hlam]

Thanks, Curtis. FWIW, I'm somewhat similar. I've set up profiles with EQ at 5K, 1K, 500, and 250. As of now, I use the 5K EQ with video inputs (eg movies, streaming, TV) and have the 250 profile assigned to music inputs. I've set up two inputs for each music source - one with ARC and one without - and programmed my remote so I can switch between these. As mentioned previously, I find w/o ARC a bit better for music. To me, it seems the highs are better and overall a bit louder w/o ARC.

Do you have any idea why ARC would alter the high frequencies with a 250 hertz limit.
I am a little apprehensive about using the anthem. I am 59 years old and this is my first blown speaker. I do not want to repeat this.
It can get expensive to keep replacing Raal tweeters.
I can see the Denon x-4000 going back into service.

[racrawford65]

Do you have any idea why ARC would alter the high frequencies with a 250 hertz limit.
I am a little apprehensive about using the anthem. I am 59 years old and this is my first blown speaker. I do not want to repeat this.
It can get expensive to keep replacing Raal tweeters.
I can see the Denon x-4000 going back into service.

Not sure why it is altering. Maybe related to which version of Genesis you are running? Or, perhaps, input is set to use a different speaker profile with higher EQ limit?

Maybe post your Genesis/ARC report here (and/or on the AVS Genesis thread - several knowledgeable posters there who may be able to help. Link below)

In the interim, as suggested above, may want to run ARC2 instead of Genesis. If not happy with results from ARC2, if it gives you peace of mind, go back to the Denon and try the Anthem / Genesis when the software is a bit more stable.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3068892-dedicated-arc-genesis-thread-19.html

[curtis]

I think I am missing the point. If Genesis rasies the level for all speakers by +9db, why would it make a difference in listening as if it didn't. Instead of listening at -40db you would listen as -49db.

rcrawford, is it definite that Genesis is EQing above the cutoff frequency? (just did a quick scan of the referenced thread and it seems it is not correcting above the cutoff. It does seem the latest version is buggy though. I'm happy with my setup, so I will leave it alone).

[racrawford65]

I think it's listening at -31 db if at -40 on the vol display. Also, as Dave mentioned earlier in this thread, that's like 10x the power and could cause clipping.

As to whether or not Genesis is EQ'ing above the cutoff frequency, not 100% sure. Maybe version dependent. If I look at my ARC report, it doesn't appear to EQ above the cutoff frequency. As I recall from the AVS forum thread posted above, some are reporting issues with the TILT function in most recent beta. Not sure if previous also had weird behavior. I've not tinkered with TILT or several other settings in Genesis, so can't say for sure.

[curtis]

I think it's listening at -31 db if at -40 on the vol display. Also, as Dave mentioned earlier in this thread, that's like 10x the power and could cause clipping.

Yes, it is like 10x the power, but it is only a concern if it is out of line with the other speakers. -31 vs -40 is also like 10x the power. If it +9 across the board, it is like raising the overall volume +9, so you just end up listening at a lower "volume" on the display.



As to whether or not Genesis is EQ'ing above the cutoff frequency, not 100% sure. Maybe version dependent. If I look at my ARC report, it doesn't appear to EQ above the cutoff frequency. As I recall from the AVS forum thread posted above, some are reporting issues with the TILT function in most recent beta. Not sure if previous also had weird behavior. I've not tinkered with TILT or several other settings in Genesis, so can't say for sure.
Yeah, not definitive. I'm just trying to get clarification on your previous post implying that it is definitive.

[racrawford65]

Correct, not definitive.
Regards,
Robert

[Hlam]

Definitely give us a call at the office. In the meantime, I recommend manually setting the trim levels - such high gain could be clipping the input stages.

This quote from Dave could explain what happened. I could have been sending a very clipped and distorted signal to the tweeters. I have suffered high frequency hearing loss over the years and can not hear anything over 10,000 Hz.
I could have been enjoying the great sound while my poor speakers were crying for help, unknown to me.
In the last year I have had these speakers hooked up to a Marantz, a Yamaha, and 5 different NAD receivers. This does not include the Denon that I have been using for the last 5 years.
I am sure that the Anthem is the problem. Either the amplifier stage or the ARC Genesis software.
I had used the Anthem for less than one hour when the tweeter blew, so I know very little about this unit.

[Hlam]

Not sure why it is altering. Maybe related to which version of Genesis you are running? Or, perhaps, input is set to use a different speaker profile with higher EQ limit?

Maybe post your Genesis/ARC report here (and/or on the AVS Genesis thread - several knowledgeable posters there who may be able to help. Link below)

In the interim, as suggested above, may want to run ARC2 instead of Genesis. If not happy with results from ARC2, if it gives you peace of mind, go back to the Denon and try the Anthem / Genesis when the software is a bit more stable.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3068892-dedicated-arc-genesis-thread-19.html

How do you post the ARC report.
I have reset the Anthem to factory defaults and removed all Genesis software from my computer.
I have been using the Denon again.
I will give the Anthem another try, very carefully, when I get my new tweeter.
I may do as you suggest and try ARC2 instead of Genesis.

[racrawford65]

To upload a file, if you go to advanced mode when posting a reply, there is a paper clip icon to add attachments.

I am assuming you saved the report from your cal run as a PDF and haven't deleted it yet.

One of mine is attached as an example.

1759

FWIF, my guess is it's something with the new Genesis software and what was uploaded. Unless, of course, you got a defective unit. For me, the hardware has been rock solid, both the MRX510 I had previously and now the MRX720 (ATMOS upgrade).

[Hlam]

Are you sure that you can install ARC2 on the 720?
When I go to ARC downloads the only option that I see is Anthem Genesis.
I received my replacement tweeter today about 30 minutes after I left for work. I will not get home again until Aug. 30th.
Something to look forward to.

[Hlam]

To upload a file, if you go to advanced mode when posting a reply, there is a paper clip icon to add attachments.

I am assuming you saved the report from your cal run as a PDF and haven't deleted it yet.

One of mine is attached as an example.

1759

FWIF, my guess is it's something with the new Genesis software and what was uploaded. Unless, of course, you got a defective unit. For me, the hardware has been rock solid, both the MRX510 I had previously and now the MRX720 (ATMOS upgrade).

I did not save a PDF file.
I deleted everything on my computer that had anything to do with ARC or Anthem.

[racrawford65]

Are you sure that you can install ARC2 on the 720?
When I go to ARC downloads the only option that I see is Anthem Genesis.
I received my replacement tweeter today about 30 minutes after I left for work. I will not get home again until Aug. 30th.
Something to look forward to.

I don't see ARC2 on the Anthem site either. I have the last version saved on my computer, but it is too big to attach here (12.8 MB). It may be too big to email, as well. If you want to PM me your address, I can burn it to a CD or thumb drive and mail to you. FYI, you'll need to download your mic cal file (I think they are one and the same for ARC2 and Genesis). If you send me your mic's S/N, I can download it as well for you and burn it to the same disk/thumbdrive. Also, ARC2 only runs on Windows. If you are a MAC person, I think there is a way to run Windows on a MAC and believe this will allow ARC2 to run, but not 100% positive. Otherwise, you may need to borrow a Windows laptop to run and upload.

Alternately, you can ask Anthem Tech support for a copy of ARC2.

ARC2 or Genesis are installed on the PC, not the MRX. Both can be installed on the same PC at the same time (separate folders) -- FWIW, I have both on mine. The calibration/eq/trims/etc from either can be uploaded into the MRX720. ARC2 is the original software that came with the MRX720 (all x20 series, the AVM60, and the previous MRX x10 series), so no problems using ARC2 with this receiver.

[Hlam]

I finally got time to install the new tweeter.
I removed the screws form the blown tweeter and carefully removed it from the cabinet. I found that one of the wire terminals was very loose on the connection.
I pushed this wire back on and crimped it in place. Put the tweeter back into the cabinet and it is not blown. It sounds fine. I now have a spare tweeter.
I should have taken the tweeter out and checked the wires before ordering a replacement tweeter.
I guess it took 5.5 years for this terminal to work itself off enough to cause a problem.
Thanks for the great service Dave.
Also, thanks for the Anthem help guys.
I hooked the Anthem up again and ran genesis. I got almost the same results. All speaker levels at +8 or +9 and the sub at +10. I may use the 720 at very low volumes for a day or so before I put the Denon back into service.

[racrawford65]

Good to hear that the tweeter wasn't blown and just a lose wire.

As to Genesis, you may want to try lowering (I think) the system wide target or perhaps changing the gain on your subwoofer (on it's amp) and rerunning. That may lower the trim gains across the system.

Alternately, you could manually reduce them. As I recall from a post on AVS, this doesn't impact the EQ.

[curtis]

Good to hear that the tweeter wasn't blown and just a lose wire.

As to Genesis, you may want to try lowering (I think) the system wide target or perhaps changing the gain on your subwoofer (on it's amp) and rerunning. That may lower the trim gains across the system.

Alternately, you could manually reduce them. As I recall from a post on AVS, this doesn't impact the EQ.
You could even leave them alone. It won't hurt anything if the trim gain is the same across the board.

[Hlam]

I tried turning all the speakers levels down by 9 dB to get them in the zero range. This seemed to change the sound quality. The bass was muddied up and the blend between the subs and speakers was off.
I do not know why but it seems like changing the speaker levels also changed the calibration.
The 720 sounds better with ARC turned off when the speaker levels are at zero. When the levels are put back to the calibrated levels the sound is much better with ARC turned on.
I still have a lot to learn about this receiver.
Thanks for the help.

[curtis]

I tried turning all the speakers levels down by 9 dB to get them in the zero range. This seemed to change the sound quality. The bass was muddied up and the blend between the subs and speakers was off.
I do not know why but it seems like changing the speaker levels also changed the calibration.
The 720 sounds better with ARC turned off when the speaker levels are at zero. When the levels are put back to the calibrated levels the sound is much better with ARC turned on.
I still have a lot to learn about this receiver.
Thanks for the help.
Did you turn the sub down by 9 as well?

[Hlam]

Yes I turned the sub down by 9 dB.
I also noticed that when I turn off ARC correction the volume level increases by 5 dB.
I have set my maximum volume level, in the receiver, to -30 dB. This gives me a playback level of approximately 75 to 80 dB. This is my normal listening level.
Hopefully Anthem will get the bugs worked out of the Genesis program soon.

[curtis]

My AVM 60 has been in service a few months now. Other than the trim level issue set by Genesis, which is trivial at most, it has been flawless in my use. Oh, I did have an issue with getting one of the versions to run on my Mac.

I have had a few different AVRs/Pre-Pros with Trinnov, Dirac, and now ARC/Genesis room correction systems. I think Trinnov did the best in my room, but Genesis gives up very little.