RAAL Tweeters - Why so low from the ground?

[Bghead8che]

I own the RAAL towers. I was surprised at how low the RAAL tweeters are from the ground. Other towers tweeters I've owned are a good 2-5 inches higher. When seated, the RAALs are below my seated listening position.

I'm curious as to why they are so relatively low? Is it recommend to tilt the speakers upwards? Or buy a floor standing speaker stand?

I'm sure there is a valid reason for the design decision. Just curious as to why they are low and if its recommend to tilt or raise up the floor standing speakers. :cool:

[Beave]

They're not low - you are sitting high! :-)

Seriously, the average seating height of a person's ears is supposedly around 36" (mentioned numerous times in Stereophile, based on a survey they did).

The tweeter is around 34"-36" off the ground when the bases are installed.

How high are you sitting, or how tall are you? And how far away from the speakers are you?

It's ok for your ears to be a few inches above or below as long as you're sitting several feet away. It's the angle that matters most.

But of course you're free to raise the speakers if you want. I've seen pics online of several models of speakers where the owners put some sort of 'stand' under the towers to raise them up and/or to isolate them from the floor (although I'm skeptical of that).

[jimb]

I always expect the optimum height to be at the mid point between the center of the tweeter and center of the midrange.

[Asliang]

I've seen some people use subdudes or even the isoacoustics stuff to raise their towers. But I agree when you put ear level between tweeter and woofer it can have an effect of seeming like a bigger sound field because you've got sound coming from both above and below you.

[davef]

I always expect the optimum height to be at the mid point between the center of the tweeter and center of the midrange.

Depends on how the speaker is designed, but for nearly all of our products, the acoustic center is halfway between the tweeter and the midrange producing woofer. That said, a few inches above or below makes no difference at all. As Beave mentioned, it is all about the angle. Within +/- 10 degs vertically is usually ideal.

[jimb]

I've seen some people use subdudes or even the isoacoustics stuff to raise their towers. But I agree when you put ear level between tweeter and woofer it can have an effect of seeming like a bigger sound field because you've got sound coming from both above and below you.

My reason for expecting sound to be optimized between the tweeter and midrange is for 'focus' - so that the mids and highs combine, in phase, at cross over for any distance from the speaker. Otherwise, it is optimized at only one distance. A wavelength at 2KHz is about 17 cm. A half wave is about 8.8 cm (sounds cancels when combined 1/2 wave out of phase). With a small distance between tweeter and midrange, and a long distance from the speaker to the ear, the change in path length from each driver to the ear is small as you move away, but for some listening situations, it is not entirely negligible. In optimizing a design, why not eliminate such potential issues? This does not happen when sound combines on the line halfway between the two drivers - the path to the ear from each driver is equal, regardless of distance to the speaker. So I assume this is 'standard'.

[database]

I found that the towers were a bit low for my 41" ear height as well.

I used a 4" thick maple platform and brass footers to help fix the issues caused by my floor which is carpet over concrete. This happened to bring the tweeter height up to around ear height as well.

1740

[curtis]

I found that the towers were a bit low for my 41" ear height as well.

I used a 4" thick maple platform and brass footers to help fix the issues caused by my floor which is carpet over concrete. This happened to bring the tweeter height up to around ear height as well.

What issues were you having? Did you hear a difference? How far from the speakers is your listening spot?

[database]

What issues were you having? Did you hear a difference? How far from the speakers is your listening spot?

My towers are around 10ft from my ears in the MLP. As for the difference... I hope you're ready for a wall of text.

To be honest I thought my system sounded very good before I tried the maple platform setup (especially since I'm running Dirac Live with a nice house curve with +10dB bass boost), I just got a tip from a family friend who listened to my system that speakers on concrete kill the bass and muddy the sound (apparently a lot of other common floor types are cause similar issues but carpet over concrete is supposed to be one of the worst). That friend pointed me to these maple platforms. According to the maker, "In speakers, the mechanical movement of the cone or diaphragm transfers vibration into the speaker cabinet or frame... these internally generated vibrations distort and muddy the music signal." And they claimed that the maple platforms with brass footers would fix these problems. I wasn't totally convinced of these claims, or thought maybe they could be true but the problem that bad floors cause is overstated. But after sitting on that info for a few months, like most audiophiles trapped in this hobby I couldn't stop wondering if their claims were true and caved in.

Well, the difference was immediate, and quite shocking, much like when I ran Dirac Live for the first time. Before buying them I was concerned that the difference would be very minor and a blind A/B test would be difficult to pass but it was nothing of the sort (several people familiar with the sound of my old system noted the difference in sound right away, before I explained what the difference was supposed to be). I am getting significantly more bass now, and it is cleaner than ever. In REW the FR curve shows very little difference before and after though, so this isn't the same as just boosting bass with EQ (which has its limits because you can get too much distortion by boosting too much). The midrange has an incredible amount of clarity. And while I would never consider the RAAL tweeters harsh or fatiguing before, any hint of harshness is reduced even further. The sound is extremely dynamic, and transients are fast, clean, and startling.

I can also see that the speaker cabinet shows no signs of budging at all when I push against them, so the "vibration control system" seems to be working as intended. The brass feet are screwed directly into the bottom of the tower cabinet and spike into the maple platform from above. More brass feet screw into the maple platform from below and spike through the carpet to make contact with the concrete floor below.

I'm now able to turn the volume up much higher than I used to, louder than I would ever need, and I don't hear anything bad, it just keeps sounding better and better. I do actually need to turn up the volume more than I used to to get the same perceived volume (I used to find a volume of -25 dB on the receiver comfortable for most music but now I need to turn it up to -22 dB to get the same perceived volume even though they were both calibrated to the same SPL). If those claims about the vibrations are true, maybe this could be explained because the cabinet vibration muddiness was adding to the overall sound, and with that removed more volume is needed to compensate.

For the first time ever, I finally feel that genres like heavy rock and metal sound extremely satisfying to listen to on my system -- the bass and drums have the perfect amount of impact and intensity. I used to have a lot of songs of those genres that sounded more satisfying in my car's low quality, stock sound system than in my home theater setup. I assume the car's excessive cabin gain gave those songs a much needed bass boost while they sounded too anemic in my more neutral-sounding home theater setup. But now the home theater setup sounds better in every way, as it should.

On my old setup, maybe 10-15% of my music collection sounded great on my setup. Those were the ones that were particularly well-recorded and well-mixed. The rest of my music sounded decent or pretty good, and I chalked that up to those just not being mixed very well (and again, I noticed this most often on rock/metal). While that thinking was probably not completely wrong, I incorrectly assumed that my system couldn't sound much better than it did (without spending much more money at least), so I blamed those songs being poorly mixed and didn't think anything more of it. But now, maybe 75% of my music collection sounds great. There's about 10% of the really poorly mixed stuff which still doesn't sound great, and I assume there's no salvaging them. But the remaining 15% which already sounded great before have reached a new level. My towers used to become transparent sometimes, but now on that 15% they can fully disappear and remain invisible for the whole song, with sounds sometimes coming from directions that don't seem possible. In a song like Windowpane by Opeth, the imaging is so precise and the sound is so clear that I can close my eyes and perfectly visualize every movement the drummer is making. I'm hearing details in this song that I've never heard before, but that's actually the case for most songs I've listened to so far.

Sorry this post ended up so long. I intentionally omitted the name of the maker of those maple platforms so that I didn't sound too much like an advertisement, but I can provide the name if anyone is interested (or it shouldn't be too hard to find them with google using the info in this post). Or if there's any interest in recordings of the speakers before and after the platforms, I can try providing those, perhaps in a separate thread (I didn't mean to hijack this one), although I'm not sure how accurately a recording can capture the differences.

I've never been so excited to listen to music before, and I just wanted to share the excitement. In my system, the critical ingredients to stereo music bliss have been the Ascend RAAL towers, Rythmik subwoofers, and Dirac Live with a house curve. These maple platforms with brass footers were the last ingredient, and now I finally feel like I have the system I've been chasing after for so many years.

[racrawford65]

database - curious where you got the maple platforms...mapleshade?

[Mag_Neato]

Mapleshade.....was looking at those myself, but a little steep for my pocket book.

Database, I had a similar experience with another product that follows the same principles as the platforms/footers. Small brass points placed between my Sierra-2's and the metal stands. They are designed to allow the vibrational energy from the speakers, or any component placed on them, to flow from the equipment and, ultimately, to ground plane. By removing this from the speakers it has, in my system, done much the same as what you describe. Efficiency & dynamics have exploded, etc., etc. I do not need to turn the volume up as high now, but it sounds so good I can't help but crank it.

Another recent tweak I did which has yielded very nice benefits was changing the crossover (low pass) filter settings for my Rythmik sub. My Halo P5 pre has built-in hi & low pass analog filters. They are both sloped at 12db/octave. I set the low pass to bypass so the sub gets the full range signal, and switched the filter setting on the Rythmik to 80Hz/24db, so double the rolloff slope for anything over 80Hz to it. This has tightened up and added definition to the bass that was not there. There are times when the sound is so startling that I have literally jumped in my seat!

Anyway, Database, Glad you are enjoying your system. I am at a point with mine that I have to nit-pick to find anything I want to "improve", which is not easy.

[rjkruk]

Mapleshade has quite an esoteric product line ......
But they and WildChild have some very good CDs.

[database]

database - curious where you got the maple platforms...mapleshade?

Yes, they are from Mapleshade.


Mapleshade.....was looking at those myself, but a little steep for my pocket book.

Database, I had a similar experience with another product that follows the same principles as the platforms/footers. Small brass points placed between my Sierra-2's and the metal stands. They are designed to allow the vibrational energy from the speakers, or any component placed on them, to flow from the equipment and, ultimately, to ground plane. By removing this from the speakers it has, in my system, done much the same as what you describe. Efficiency & dynamics have exploded, etc., etc. I do not need to turn the volume up as high now, but it sounds so good I can't help but crank it.

Another recent tweak I did which has yielded very nice benefits was changing the crossover (low pass) filter settings for my Rythmik sub. My Halo P5 pre has built-in hi & low pass analog filters. They are both sloped at 12db/octave. I set the low pass to bypass so the sub gets the full range signal, and switched the filter setting on the Rythmik to 80Hz/24db, so double the rolloff slope for anything over 80Hz to it. This has tightened up and added definition to the bass that was not there. There are times when the sound is so startling that I have literally jumped in my seat!

Anyway, Database, Glad you are enjoying your system. I am at a point with mine that I have to nit-pick to find anything I want to "improve", which is not easy.

That's great info, thanks. I've definitely tweaked crossovers a lot, and the miniDSP DDRC-88a with bass management plugin offers tons of flexibility for crossovers. I'm currently using a 50hz BW24dB LPF/HPF slope for my front 3 speakers crossed with a pair of Rythmik FV18s, they had the best response after measuring in REW. But I'm sure the optimum crossover will always depend on the room.


Mapleshade has quite an esoteric product line ......
But they and WildChild have some very good CDs.

Their product line definitely is unconventional, and so is a lot of their advice (https://www.mapleshadestore.com/freeupgrades.php). I did try their advice on speaker placement before buying any of their products and it did improve my system quite a bit, but part of that was because my initial placement of mains was not great for stereo in the first place (L and R were not spaced far enough from each other and too far away from MLP).

They seem to be pretty controversial in general -- some people swear by them, while others glance at their website and dismiss them outright as audiophile snake oil. I am starting to see why, as I've been on both sides of the fence now. Even after hearing their maple platform upgrade work on my system firsthand, they have several products that seem ridiculous to me. But I've learned not to dismiss anything outright, at the very least.

[Beave]

I'm one who just glanced at their website and saw a bunch of audiophile snake oil! :eek:

[Mag_Neato]

1746

I'm gonna make you an offer you can't refuse!

[Bghead8che]

I am 5 feet 7 inches and I sit 10 feet back. My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor. The "acoustic center" of the towers as Dave described in an earlier post is 36.5 inches from the floor. So I am sitting three inches below the acoustic center.

I have some speaker stands I could use for the towers that would add 4.75 inches to the speakers' height. That would put the acoustic center at 41.25 or 1.75 inches above my ears.

What would you guys (and Dave) recommend? Should I sit three inches below the acoustic center or add the stands and sit above the center by 1.75 inches? I'm not exactly sure what would be better. Would I get the exact same effect by slightly tilting the speakers up?

Dave mentioned that angle is most important. What would be the ideal listening window if I am 10 feet back and the acoustic center is 36.5 inches from the floor?

Thanks in advance for your feedback and advice!

[Beave]

You're sitting 3 inches above the acoustic center, right?

At 10 feet away, that three inches is just a degree or two - well within the recommended +/- 10 degrees.

Other movements of the speaker (a few inches closer to or farther from a wall, toeing in more or less) will make a much bigger difference.

[database]

I am 5 feet 7 inches and I sit 10 feet back. My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor. The "acoustic center" of the towers as Dave described in an earlier post is 36.5 inches from the floor. So I am sitting three inches below the acoustic center.

I have some speaker stands I could use for the towers that would add 4.75 inches to the speakers' height. That would put the acoustic center at 41.25 or 1.75 inches above my ears.

What would you guys (and Dave) recommend? Should I sit three inches below the acoustic center or add the stands and sit above the center by 1.75 inches? I'm not exactly sure what would be better. Would I get the exact same effect by slightly tilting the speakers up?

Dave mentioned that angle is most important. What would be the ideal listening window if I am 10 feet back and the acoustic center is 36.5 inches from the floor?

Thanks in advance for your feedback and advice!

Why not test both out? In both configurations you should be inside of the vertical listening window that Dave mentioned, so you couldn't go too wrong with either - I think it would come down to preference. My personal preference would be use the stands to have the speakers be slightly above rather than sightly below ear level, this can give you the effect of the musicians standing on a live stage in front of you when listening to music.

I do agree with above that other factors like distance from front wall, toe in, and the speaker distance from each other will make a bigger difference. In my system, I have the speakers several feet away from the front wall (to get more depth in imaging). I use slight toe in so that the left tower points one chair-width to the left of my center chair, and the right tower points one chair-width to the right of my center chair - with this amount of toe-in I got just the right amount of focus on the voice while still getting a live sound. And I've spaced the towers quite wide, wider than an equilateral triangle, to get a large, room-filling soundstage. These arrangements might not be optimal in your room, or match your preferences perfectly, but if you're looking for something to start with you could try it and adjust as needed.

[jimb]

As already mentioned, you seem to be above the center, and 3" at 10' is not much (but also not nothing). You can also try 'shimming' up under the front edge of the towers (about 1/4"?) to aim them at your ear more directly and see whether that makes a difference to you. Similarly, you can add the stands and shim the back up (~1/8"?). To check that, easily, hold a flashlight against your ear and shine it at the face of the speaker. Assuming you do not have flat black finish, where on the speaker does it reflect straight back at you? That is the point that is 'normal' to your ear.

[davef]

I am 5 feet 7 inches and I sit 10 feet back. My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor. The "acoustic center" of the towers as Dave described in an earlier post is 36.5 inches from the floor. So I am sitting three inches below the acoustic center.

I have some speaker stands I could use for the towers that would add 4.75 inches to the speakers' height. That would put the acoustic center at 41.25 or 1.75 inches above my ears.

What would you guys (and Dave) recommend? Should I sit three inches below the acoustic center or add the stands and sit above the center by 1.75 inches? I'm not exactly sure what would be better. Would I get the exact same effect by slightly tilting the speakers up?

Dave mentioned that angle is most important. What would be the ideal listening window if I am 10 feet back and the acoustic center is 36.5 inches from the floor?

Thanks in advance for your feedback and advice!

I believe you are sitting 3" above the acoustic center. Vertically, we recommend a +/- 10 degree window from the acoustic center. That means ideally, your ears should be within 10 degrees above and 10 degrees below. At 10ft back, and 3" above, that puts your ears at a vertical angle of only 1.5 degrees. You are in the ideal vertical sweet spot of the speaker, no concerns....

Any changes you make in vertical positioning that are audibly noticeable would not be due to your being 3" above, but due to room acoustics themselves. No human can hear a difference from 0 degrees to 1.5 degrees...

[Bghead8che]

Thanks for the replies guys! I also have a question about the vertical center of the Horizon center channel speaker. Is the vertical center half way between the tweeter and midrange as well? I'm ordering a custom speaker stand and want to make sure they build the correct level of tilt into the stand. My stand will be 13" from the floor.

Thanks guys!

[davef]

Thanks for the replies guys! I also have a question about the vertical center of the Horizon center channel speaker. Is the vertical center half way between the tweeter and midrange as well? I'm ordering a custom speaker stand and want to make sure they build the correct level of tilt into the stand. My stand will be 13" from the floor.

Thanks guys!

Acoustic center for the Horizon is directly between the tweeter and midrange. Hope this helps!