Need help with new towers?

[Jimfinn2112]

I finally got my espresso towers with the raal tweeters last week. They are beautiful for sure. I'm having trouble with the sound. I'm running them through a Denon X3300, which I plan to upgrade in the near future. My room is estimated at 14*19*8 and it L's at the back of the room. The crazy thing is they sound better as I move away from them. My seat is about 7.2 feet away. I'm not sure how to describe the sound up close... maybe hollow. But at 14 feet it's a whole other story. I've ran audyssey multiple times and have tried all kinds set ups from the receiver. Even had audyssey turned off. I will say at lower volumes from my seat they sound really good. They're paired with an Svs pb 4000 which I just got before the speakers arrived. All you cats seem very knowledgeable about all things sound. I'm looking for a little help!

[MarkGraz]

I sit about the same distance and don't have that issue. You may be in need of some room treatments, but I am certainly not an expert.

[kyzersoze98]

Can you post pictures of your room?

[Jimfinn2112]

Had to chop it down to get it to work.

[mikesiskav]

Are you sure the polarity is correct on the wiring? If they're out of phase it can sound really weird.

[Bruce Watson]

The crazy thing is they sound better as I move away from them. My seat is about 7.2 feet away. I'm not sure how to describe the sound up close... maybe hollow. But at 14 feet it's a whole other story.

From this description my guess is you've got a first reflections kind of problem at your normal seat. The "cure" for that is room treatments. I'd look at a decent panel at the first reflection points.

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/reflection-free-zone/
http://realtraps.com/rfz.htm
http://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
http://www.gikacoustics.com/articles/

[davef]

I finally got my espresso towers with the raal tweeters last week. They are beautiful for sure. I'm having trouble with the sound. I'm running them through a Denon X3300, which I plan to upgrade in the near future. My room is estimated at 14*19*8 and it L's at the back of the room. The crazy thing is they sound better as I move away from them. My seat is about 7.2 feet away. I'm not sure how to describe the sound up close... maybe hollow. But at 14 feet it's a whole other story. I've ran audyssey multiple times and have tried all kinds set ups from the receiver. Even had audyssey turned off. I will say at lower volumes from my seat they sound really good. They're paired with an Svs pb 4000 which I just got before the speakers arrived. All you cats seem very knowledgeable about all things sound. I'm looking for a little help!

Hi JimFinn2112 and welcome to the forum.

You are perfectly describing the effects of what are called standing waves. The sound of speakers doesn't actually change at varying distances -- from 1 meter away to 15+ meters away, the speakers will sound the same. However, what changes is how the soundwaves produced by the speakers (or anything else) react in your room. The louder the volume, the greater the amount of standing wave excitation.

As a reference, here is a great article with regards to speaker placement and listening position to help reduce some of the possible negative room effects.

http://www.ecoustics.com/articles/stereo-speaker-placement-optimum-sound/

The first step is to determine the major contributor, it could be the subs, the speakers and/or the integration between your subs and speakers...

To do this.. Turn Audyssey completely off, unplug your subwoofers so they are no longer functional, and set the towers to "large" so they are playing full range.

Listen to the same music and report back (or email me) with your findings...

[Jimfinn2112]

Thanks Dave,
I'll do it and get back to you. The guys who have responded to my thread all seem to think it's the room and reccomend treatments at the first reflection points. I was curious as to your take on that!

[davef]

Almost forgot, can you also post the room dimensions? It looks to be almost square which is not a good thing.... Plus, I strongly recommend less toe-in (try no toe-in) and if you can pull the speakers closer to the listening position to help minimize some of the nasty reflections you will get off the TV.

[Beave]

With good speakers (flat on-axis and well-behaved off-axis), such as these towers, the need for absorption panels on sidewalls is often overstated. Reflections aren't always bad. What's more, with the speaker placement and toe in you show in your picture, I really doubt excess sidewall reflection is the main issue.

What is the floor material? How big is that rug and how thick is it?

And what is in the back of the room, behind the listening position?

[davef]

Thanks Dave,
I'll do it and get back to you. The guys who have responded to my thread all seem to think it's the room and reccomend treatments at the first reflection points. I was curious as to your take on that!

Typically, when someone describes a "hollow" sound it is usually issues in the upper bass region, for which treating first reflection points would be rather pointless. In addition, since the speakers sound great at lower volumes and seem to get hollow sounding at louder volumes, that is a key indication of room modes.

My hunch is that it is a combination of standing waves and speaker/sub integration. Also, when taking Audyssey measurements, it is critical to follow the recommended microphone placement guide. Many people run Audyssey with the mic just at the listening position and this most often ends up with poor results. All 12 positions should be used...

http://i56.tinypic.com/xfpah4.png

Also let me know what settings you are using on the sub...

Dina mentioned that you sent her an email and are getting better results with a few of her recommendations, that is a good start -- but best steps at this point is to follow my procedures so we can isolate the issue. Now, I am not saying we can fully fix the issue, there are no quick fixes to room modes if this is the issue, but we can certainly take steps to reduce their impact.

[Jimfinn2112]

The room is 21'6*14'7...on the right wall at 16'6 it L's into a small dining room which is 8*9. I've been listening to the live porcupine tree CD on an opportunity 203 and they sound pretty good. I don't think I've ever listened to music without some kind of bass or treble lol. The rug is 6*8 and not very thick at all. The floors are pergo or something like that. The back of the speakers are about a foot from the TV. I think I need to move the sub.
Behind seat is about 11feet of open space.
Again I appreciate the help!!

[Jimfinn2112]

That's an oppo 203 lol

[Beave]

A hard surface floor like pergo plus only a small thin rug can lead to an overly-reflective room. I don't think acoustic panels are always needed, but in the case of this room, some more absorption might help.

The space behind your listening position is probably a good thing (better than having a wall right behind your couch, in terms of acoustics).

But as Dave has pointed out, you could be sitting in a null nonetheless. Try crouching a couple feet in front of the couch or sitting a couple feet behind it - does it sound better at those places? If so, you're sitting in a null.

Or it could be simply the room is overly reflective. You could try bringing in a few blankets or comforters or sleeping bags and laying them on the rug to 'thicken' it up considerably and see if that helps the sound. If it does, you'll know a thicker/bigger rug will help.

You could also try hanging said blankets or comforters or sleeping bags along the sidewalls and see what you think there - that approximates acoustic panels on the walls.

[Jimfinn2112]

It's funny you say about the null of nothingness. When I move back a few feet from the listening position the bass of the speakers is definitely more prevalent. I think I was losing some of the low end, hence that hollowish sound. Thanks for your suggestions! If I pull the sub out of the corner and put it next to the couch, which way should it face. If understand it a bit, the bass goes everywhere?

[Beave]

I'm guessing this problem is above the frequency range covered by the subwoofer, ie, as Dave said, it's upper bass missing that can lead to a hollow sound.

The sub can face any direction, except for having the ports right up against a wall. But I'm not sure it's your sub location that is the problem.

[Jimfinn2112]

Thanks Dave,
I'll follow your instructions.
I haven't messed with the sub to much. I'd say the settings are basically the same as out of the crate. It has a lot of different settings on it though.

I'm also listening with no toe in. I read today about a thing with sound where the seat shouldn't be half way between the front and back wall and the side walls. I think I was sitting in that spot. Sound is crazy, but fascinating too!!

[davef]

The room is 21'6*14'7...on the right wall at 16'6 it L's into a small dining room which is 8*9. I've been listening to the live porcupine tree CD on an opportunity 203 and they sound pretty good. I don't think I've ever listened to music without some kind of bass or treble lol. The rug is 6*8 and not very thick at all. The floors are pergo or something like that. The back of the speakers are about a foot from the TV. I think I need to move the sub.
Behind seat is about 11feet of open space.
Again I appreciate the help!!

Based on the info you provided, your room is going to have a very pronounced null at ~60Hz at half the distance from the front wall, which is where you are seated. This is why you are getting much better sound a few feet back from your listening positioning.

A good rule of thumb for speaker placement and listening position is what is termed the rule of thirds. Basically, you will want to divide your room into 3rds. Set your listening position 1/3rd distance from the back wall, and ideally - place the speakers 1/3rd away from the front wall.

In addition, to optimize subwoofer placement, you should follow the procedure known as the "subwoofer crawl"... Do this procedure only after you optimize your listening position.

https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/crawling-for-bass-subwoofer-placement

Since this is a 60Hz null, it is affecting both the speakers and the subwoofer.

If you are unable to change your listening position or optimize subwoofer placement, you then might want to try using a higher crossover on the speakers (100Hz) to let the subwoofer handle much of the upper midbass and then turn the subwoofer volume up higher to a point where you are satisfied with the sound. It is important for you to understand that in a room like this, the bass and upper midbass are going to sound very different in different places in the room. This is not due to the speakers or your sub, it is your room acoustics.

Once you fully optimize placement and sub location, you can then try running Audyssey following the recommended microphone placement guidelines.


I don't think I've ever listened to music without some kind of bass or treble lol

Not sure what you mean, do you mean bass and treble controls? If so, your receiver has this option but it is quite a bit more capable than just basic bass and treble knobs. Your receiver has a 9 band EQ built in where you can adjust various bass, mid, and treble frequencies to your liking.

Also, keep in mind that you can simply turn the subwoofer level up higher (most consumers tend to use subs 10dB hotter) but it is really all to your personal preferences. If you find you need more bass, just turn the sub volume level higher...

Hope this helps!