3 -way sierra bookshelf?

[Elessar]

I apologise if this has been discussed address already but @davef have you considered a 3-way sierra bookshelf for people who want to upgrade but cannot manage to get Sierra Towers.
Or asked differently have considered building something that would be next step up from sierra-2(which is fantastic speaker btw) for people who couldn't quite manage the real estate for sierra towers.


PS: I am not sure the next step from sierra 2 needs to be a 3-way speaker but ST is one so i assumed the next step up would be a 3-way ...

[Mag_Neato]

While this idea intrigues me as well, if you want more of a bookshelf version of the tower there's already the Horizon. You did not mention cost being a factor so you could try those out.

[davef]

I apologise if this has been discussed address already but @davef have you considered a 3-way sierra bookshelf for people who want to upgrade but cannot manage to get Sierra Towers.
Or asked differently have considered building something that would be next step up from sierra-2(which is fantastic speaker btw) for people who couldn't quite manage the real estate for sierra towers.


PS: I am not sure the next step from sierra 2 needs to be a 3-way speaker but ST is one so i assumed the next step up would be a 3-way ...

Hi Elessar,

I have learned that it is fairly common that consumers just want to "upgrade" without really knowing what aspects of performance they are looking to upgrade / improve. This often leads to upgrades being less of an "upgrade" than expected.

So, back to your original question - which is a good one, what aspects of the Sierra-2 are you looking to improve?

[mikesiskav]

I think this is a very interesting topic! Although I am not currently looking to change my system. Love my Sierra-2. But just curious, would it be worthwhile using the RAAL from the tower in the Sierra-2. Does that make much difference?

[davef]

I think this is a very interesting topic! Although I am not currently looking to change my system. Love my Sierra-2. But just curious, would it be worthwhile using the RAAL from the tower in the Sierra-2. Does that make much difference?

It does actually -- we have made a few custom Sierra-2's with the RAAL 70-20xr. We can cross much lower with this tweeter which improves mids a bit as well as dispersion. The neat thing about the 70-20, which is unique to this RAAL, is this tweeter has far superior damping to any other RAAL ribbon (and likely any other ribbon tweeter as well). However, I am not sure that the rather significant price increase resulting from the tweeter switch is worth the performance increase. Definitely something to consider though...

[mikesiskav]

It does actually -- we have made a few custom Sierra-2's with the RAAL 70-20xr. We can cross much lower with this tweeter which improves mids a bit as well as dispersion. The neat thing about the 70-20, which is unique to this RAAL, is this tweeter has far superior damping to any other RAAL ribbon (and likely any other ribbon tweeter as well). However, I am not sure that the rather significant price increase resulting from the tweeter switch is worth the performance increase. Definitely something to consider though...

That is interesting! I'm guessing a pair of Sierra-2 with the 70-20 is over $2,000. Is the cabinet modified to make room for the tweeter?

[Elessar]

Hi Elessar,

I have learned that it is fairly common that consumers just want to "upgrade" without really knowing what aspects of performance they are looking to upgrade / improve. This often leads to upgrades being less of an "upgrade" than expected.

So, back to your original question - which is a good one, what aspects of the Sierra-2 are you looking to improve?

I keep hearing about how mids on the Sierra towers are just magical. While Sierra 2s are fantastic I am really curious to hear what would sound like in my living room.

Also, there seem to be quite a few 3-way bookshelf speakers with RAAL, so I was curious if you’d ever consider it, seeing as how you were instrumental in getting us an affordable raal

[diesel79]

Without designing a new speaker the Horizon would make a great (slightly larger) bookshelf. A 3 way Sierra 2 wouldn’t probably be too much smaller as far as height (vertical config Horizon) and I bet the price difference wouldn’t be too great. How much space do you have? It seems that space is your constraint.

You can rotate the tweeter on the Horizon and run them vertically or the standard config and lay horizontally. Not sure if there is an up charge to have the tweeter rotated in the Horizon as I’ve read it takes some cabinet modifications to make it work.

With the Horizon you would also be getting the 70/20 RAAL. It’s a win win. :). My next Ascend purchase will be for a couple more Horizons for my LCR.

[davef]

That is interesting! I'm guessing a pair of Sierra-2 with the 70-20 is over $2,000. Is the cabinet modified to make room for the tweeter?

Only minor internal cabinet modifications are needed. We designed our RAAL 70-20xram and Sierra-2 ribbon tweeters to have the same size faceplates.

Yes, pricing would be approx. $2K / pair with our RAAL 70-20.

[davef]

I keep hearing about how mids on the Sierra towers are just magical. While Sierra 2s are fantastic I am really curious to hear what would sound like in my living room.

Also, there seem to be quite a few 3-way bookshelf speakers with RAAL, so I was curious if you’d ever consider it, seeing as how you were instrumental in getting us an affordable raal

The tower uses an exceptional midrange and our customized RAAL 70-20xram, so it is really the best of both worlds.

[Elessar]

The tower uses an exceptional midrange and our customized RAAL 70-20xram, so it is really the best of both worlds.
the only way to get them in bookshelf speakers form factor would be to get horizon with RAAL?

[davef]

the only way to get them in bookshelf speakers form factor would be to get horizon with RAAL?

I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean the combination of the Tower Midrange and RAAL 70-20xram?

The midrange in the tower is not really appropriate for a 2-way speaker as it will start to rolloff at around 180Hz.

[Elessar]

I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean the combination of the Tower Midrange and RAAL 70-20xram?

The midrange in the tower is not really appropriate for a 2-way speaker as it will start to rolloff at around 180Hz.

I meant to ask is it accurate that if I wanted a bookshelf sized speaker which had the tower midrange, would the only option be horizon which mates it with the woofer ( and tweeter of our choice) ?

[davef]

I meant to ask is it accurate that if I wanted a bookshelf sized speaker which had the tower midrange, would the only option be horizon which mates it with the woofer ( and tweeter of our choice) ?

Technically yes, but we would be happy to make something custom for you. We have made 2-way bookshelf speakers with the tower midrange and the RAAL 70-20xr, but they need to be crossed to a sub at 120Hz minimum...

[Elessar]

Technically yes, but we would be happy to make something custom for you. We have made 2-way bookshelf speakers with the tower midrange and the RAAL 70-20xr, but they need to be crossed to a sub at 120Hz minimum...

I see. Let me give you a call/email. I guess it might be easier to discuss there.

thanks!

[jimb]

Technically yes, but we would be happy to make something custom for you. We have made 2-way bookshelf speakers with the tower midrange and the RAAL 70-20xr, but they need to be crossed to a sub at 120Hz minimum...
Sounds like it is effectively a tower then.

[jimb]

It does actually -- we have made a few custom Sierra-2's with the RAAL 70-20xr. We can cross much lower with this tweeter which improves mids a bit as well as dispersion. The neat thing about the 70-20, which is unique to this RAAL, is this tweeter has far superior damping to any other RAAL ribbon (and likely any other ribbon tweeter as well). However, I am not sure that the rather significant price increase resulting from the tweeter switch is worth the performance increase. Definitely something to consider though...
I am still intrigued by this idea and the relative merits. Has it been addressed more elsewhere? Is there more to say about it? I have been thinking about the potential for an "ultimate satellite" speaker - sealed, with response to 80 Hz for perfect integration with a good sub at that optimum frequency with standard crossover slopes. Would that just be an S2 with RAAL 70-20, sealed cabinet and tweaked crossover? I assume a Luna-based approach is too small for this.

Thanks.

[davef]

Sounds like it is effectively a tower then.

No, not at all... More of a very high performance satellite speaker that needs to be paired with an appropriate subwoofer.

[jimb]

No, not at all... More of a very high performance satellite speaker that needs to be paired with an appropriate subwoofer.
I meant that once combined them with the two required, and suitable subs (like 2 F8s;)), you end up with something like a tower and maybe a tower would be a preferred implementation.

[davef]

I meant that once combined them with the two required, and suitable subs (like 2 F8s;)), you end up with something like a tower and maybe a tower would be a preferred implementation.

Well, on the surface it might appear that way, but in reality it is quite a bit different. Subwoofers really don't do a very good job above 80Hz, and the woofers in the towers are crossed to the midwoofer at ~180Hz with very tight phase integration with very wide dispersion (a big advantage of using smaller woofers). Using (2) F8's with this high performance satellite speaker that we are discussing will sound great, but it will not sound like the tower.

[jimb]

Well, on the surface it might appear that way, but in reality it is quite a bit different. Subwoofers really don't do a very good job above 80Hz, and the woofers in the towers are crossed to the midwoofer at ~180Hz with very tight phase integration with very wide dispersion (a big advantage of using smaller woofers). Using (2) F8's with this high performance satellite speaker that we are discussing will sound great, but it will not sound like the tower.
I think this means the tower would be preferred, sonically, right? If so, it sounds like the key reason this person did it was for some physical space integration benefits. That certainly was a factor for me with the Lunas. I'm still interested in what might be an ultimate satellite, crossed over at 80 Hz. :)

[davef]

I think this means the tower would be preferred, sonically, right? If so, it sounds like the key reason this person did it was for some physical space integration benefits. That certainly was a factor for me with the Lunas. I'm still interested in what might be an ultimate satellite, crossed over at 80 Hz. :)

Correct - the towers would definitely provide overall better performance. We made these custom speakers for a customer who wanted to use these as front height speakers for a perfect timbre match to the towers from ~ 200Hz and up.

[jimb]

Correct - the towers would definitely provide overall better performance. We made these custom speakers for a customer who wanted to use these as front height speakers for a perfect timbre match to the towers from ~ 200Hz and up.
Nice!

[Asliang]

I think it's hard to make a 3-way monitor look aesthetically good without going with coaxial drivers. All of the traditional 3-ways I've seen looked kinda goofy. Better off with a tower or a 2-way monitor most of the time.

[Fantom]

Hi Dave,

Reviving this thread as I've also heard so much about the amazing midrange of the towers but have limited space and cannot accommodate towers. The size/weight of the Horizon is also too much. I currently have Sierra-2 for LCR and love them. So I don't know that I need more, but research and curiosity is big part of this hobby!

Some questions:

1) What is the sensitivity of a Sierra-2 with 70-20xr? Does it go up or down substantially compared to stock Sierra-2?

2) About a year ago in the "Sierra-1 NrT: Next phase" thread you mentioned working with SEAS on a dedicated 6" Curv midrange, but said the cost/performance ratio was not ideal. You also mentioned that since it was a custom part, you couldn't offer the driver for custom orders as you'd need to order in bulk. In this thread, you say the Sierra-2 with the tower midrange would need to crossover around 120hz (too high for many reasons), and so I was wondering how much lower that 6" Curv midrange could go. It seems the "ultimate satellite" would be a 70-20xr paired with an amazing midrange driver that reached down to ~80hz. Front ported would be a bonus, as I imagine sealed would make it difficult to get a midrange driver to go down to 80hz.

[ed_bob]

It does actually -- we have made a few custom Sierra-2's with the RAAL 70-20xr. We can cross much lower with this tweeter which improves mids a bit as well as dispersion. The neat thing about the 70-20, which is unique to this RAAL, is this tweeter has far superior damping to any other RAAL ribbon (and likely any other ribbon tweeter as well). However, I am not sure that the rather significant price increase resulting from the tweeter switch is worth the performance increase. Definitely something to consider though...

How does this custom Sierra-2 with the 70-20 RAAL compared to the RAAL tower? Does the Curv woofer in the Sierra-2 have any advantages over the woofers used in the tower? Does the addition of a dedicated midrange driver in the tower make any potential advantages of the Curv woofer moot?

Also, what is the sensitivity and power handling of the Sierra-2 with 70-20 RAAL?

What is the crossover frequency for the standard Sierra-2 vs the Sierra-2 with 70-20 RAAL?

[davef]

How does this custom Sierra-2 with the 70-20 RAAL compared to the RAAL tower? Does the Curv woofer in the Sierra-2 have any advantages over the woofers used in the tower? Does the addition of a dedicated midrange driver in the tower make any potential advantages of the Curv woofer moot?

Also, what is the sensitivity and power handling of the Sierra-2 with 70-20 RAAL?

What is the crossover frequency for the standard Sierra-2 vs the Sierra-2 with 70-20 RAAL?

The custom S2 with the tower ribbon tweeter gets a bit closer to the performance of the tower, but it still does not match it. The dedicated low-mass midrange of the tower provides more midrange detail and the dual woofers in the tower provide deeper bass and more "slam"...

With our RAAL 70-20xram, we typically cross between 1800-2000 Hz, with the S2 tweeter, we typically cross between 2800-3000.

[ed_bob]

The custom S2 with the tower ribbon tweeter gets a bit closer to the performance of the tower, but it still does not match it. The dedicated low-mass midrange of the tower provides more midrange detail and the dual woofers in the tower provide deeper bass and more "slam"...

With our RAAL 70-20xram, we typically cross between 1800-2000 Hz, with the S2 tweeter, we typically cross between 2800-3000.

Thanks! What determines that 200 Hz range in the crossover? Is that just the margin of error, so to speak, or is it determined by some other factor?

[davef]

Thanks! What determines that 200 Hz range in the crossover? Is that just the margin of error, so to speak, or is it determined by some other factor?

the factor is my memory ;) - you were asking about a custom S2 with the 70-20xram and without finding my notes and crossover schematic, I am unable to provide the precise data.

[ed_bob]

the factor is my memory ;) - you were asking about a custom S2 with the 70-20xram and without finding my notes and crossover schematic, I am unable to provide the precise data.

Haha no worries - that’s close enough for me!

[N Boros]

One thing that I didn't see mentioned here, which I think that a 3-way bookshelf speaker could improve upon over say the Sierra 2 is an even wider off axis response that closely matches the on axis response. Don't get me wrong, I love my Sierra 2s and I don't think I would purchase a 3-way bookshelf version of that speaker just to improve the off axis performance. The Sierra 2 off axis response is very good. But, it is striking though when you compare the Sierra tower or Horizon with the Raal ribbon tweeter with the Sierra 2, in terms of how much the dedicated midrange helps in getting a very wide off axis response that is nearly identical to the on axis response, especially in the critical midrange.

Now that the Sierra Luna LRC is getting close to production, I think that it will address this issue though. Looking at the off axis measurements of the Luna vs. the Sierra 2, we can see the improvement I was discussing in the Luna because of the smaller woofer and the narrower front baffle. However, the Luna LCR will have two woofers to get the efficiency back to the level of the Sierra 2s. The only thing that you seem to lose out on with the two smaller woofers compared to one large woofer is bass response, likely because the Sierra 2 cabinet volume is about double that of the Luna LCR.

Maybe those looking for a three way Sierra bookshelf speaker could get what they are after just by going with the Sierra LCR coming soon. I'm not implying that the Sierra Luna LCR is a 3-way (or 2.5-way) design, but that you will likely get at least the one mentioned benefit of a dedicated midrange because of the smaller woofer and front baffle.

[Asliang]

What about a Sierra Horizon with just 1 side woofer? With that configuration it would look like alot of 3-way studio monitors.

If you are talking purely about off-axis performance, the best one's I've seen are ones with very large waveguides like the Buchardt S400. The thing is I'm not sure if it's practical at all machining something like that into a bamboo enclosure.

[N Boros]

If you are talking purely about off-axis performance, the best one's I've seen are ones with very large waveguides like the Buchardt S400. The thing is I'm not sure if it's practical at all machining something like that into a bamboo enclosure.

I don’t think that a waveguide is necessary for a Raal ribbon tweeter. Check out these measurements for the Philharmonic 3 way design.

https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/bmr-philharmonitor-1/conclusion

The Sierra towers have similar very wide dispersion, though it isn’t as easy to see as in the measurements in the link above. I think it is at least partly because of the dedicated midrange woofer, that is smaller than the woofer for bass extension down to and below 80Hz.

[ed_bob]

What about a Sierra Horizon with just 1 side woofer? With that configuration it would look like alot of 3-way studio monitors.

If you are talking purely about off-axis performance, the best one's I've seen are ones with very large waveguides like the Buchardt S400. The thing is I'm not sure if it's practical at all machining something like that into a bamboo enclosure.


Is the S400 actually better than the RAAL in the Sierra-2 when it comes to horizontal dispersion? The graphs they use are fairly different than the graphs on Ascend's website, so it's a bit hard for me to compare. But I do know the horizontal dispersion of the RAALs is fantastic.

Dave, what do you think about these graphs and how the horizontal dispersion compares to the Sierra-2?

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/s400-detailed-description

[Beave]

To me, after a quick glance at the Buchardt site, it appears their speaker is a controlled-directivity design with relatively narrow dispersion in the upper mids through the highs (to decrease reflections in this region and thus increase the ratio of direct/reflected sound heard by a listener). This can give a very focused presentation more akin to headphones (precise imaging).

The RAAL is quite the opposite - a very wide horizontal dispersion with subsequent high reflections off of sidewalls, giving a spacious presentation.

It's not a question of which is "better," as they both do their thing well. But their design goals are quite different.

[ed_bob]

To me, after a quick glance at the Buchardt site, it appears their speaker is a controlled-directivity design with relatively narrow dispersion in the upper mids through the highs (to decrease reflections in this region and thus increase the ratio of direct/reflected sound heard by a listener). This can give a very focused presentation more akin to headphones (precise imaging).

The RAAL is quite the opposite - a very wide horizontal dispersion with subsequent high reflections off of sidewalls, giving a spacious presentation.

It's not a question of which is "better," as they both do their thing well. But their design goals are quite different.

Thanks, Beave!

[davef]

To me, after a quick glance at the Buchardt site, it appears their speaker is a controlled-directivity design with relatively narrow dispersion in the upper mids through the highs (to decrease reflections in this region and thus increase the ratio of direct/reflected sound heard by a listener). This can give a very focused presentation more akin to headphones (precise imaging).

The RAAL is quite the opposite - a very wide horizontal dispersion with subsequent high reflections off of sidewalls, giving a spacious presentation.

It's not a question of which is "better," as they both do their thing well. But their design goals are quite different.

Exactly -- this is a controlled directivity speaker, narrow horizontal dispersion - quite the opposite of a RAAL based speaker. There are really 2 schools of thought - wide horizontal dispersion vs narrow horizontal dispersion. Both have pros and cons.

One advantage of wide horizontal dispersion is that one can always and relatively easily treat side wall reflections and the in-room response of that speaker will be more like a narrow dispersion speaker (sacrifice spaciousness for more precise spatial queues) but one can not increase spaciousness of a narrow dispersion design...

[davef]

Is the S400 actually better than the RAAL in the Sierra-2 when it comes to horizontal dispersion? The graphs they use are fairly different than the graphs on Ascend's website, so it's a bit hard for me to compare. But I do know the horizontal dispersion of the RAALs is fantastic.

Dave, what do you think about these graphs and how the horizontal dispersion compares to the Sierra-2?

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/s400-detailed-description

It depends on how you define "better"... The RAAL has significantly wider dispersion, this Buchardt is specifically designed for narrow dispersion, which can also be described as controlled directivity. Off-axis dispersion of this speaker is well behaved. Based on the manufacturer posted measurements, it is a well designed speaker but I question the use of a PR (passive radiator). PR's have poor transient reproduction and sacrifice efficiency in exchange for a smaller volume cabinet.

[ed_bob]

It depends on how you define "better"... The RAAL has significantly wider dispersion, this Buchardt is specifically designed for narrow dispersion, which can also be described as controlled directivity. Off-axis dispersion of this speaker is well behaved. Based on the manufacturer posted measurements, it is a well designed speaker but I question the use of a PR (passive radiator). PR's have poor transient reproduction and sacrifice efficiency in exchange for a smaller volume cabinet.

Thanks for the clarification, Dave. I had assumed when they mentioned “excellent off axis response” that meant wide horizontal dispersion, when in fact, it means practically the opposite.

Ya learn something new every day!