Life after Sierra-2: The usual redundant "where next" question (preference 2.0)

[Octave]

Precis/update: I had trouble with harshness with my Sierra-2's, but it seems that the problem was having my Oppo 103's volume on 'variable' (digital volume) rather than 'fixed'. Changing the Oppo's volume control to 'fixed' and using my integrated amp for volume control improved things noticeably....probably dramatically. Thanks to everyone for help.
Now you can skip the rest of my post!

Probably not a very interesting predicament, though I thought I'd share Too Much Info on my circumstances and preferences and maybe someone has had similar experience and could offer some pointers.

I've been using my Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers for almost 4 months now (about 300 hours of use), and my feelings are mixed/good. I used a pretty rudimentary set-up:
Oppo-103D (about half compact discs and half lossless files) -->Monoprice RCA connects-->NAD C316BEE 40W integrated amp-->Audioquest cables purchased in 2010--->Sierra-2 on Sanus 30" stands.
Unfortunately not much clearance on either side (maybe a foot from wall or furniture either side), but 2-3 feet from the back wall behind speakers. Speakers only about 4.5 feet apart...another disadvantage. Might be the room and arrangement, no? No fixing that presently, simply not an option.
Sitting ~7 feet away or so, ears right at the top edge of the woofers. Total space ~10ft x 15ft or so, with a wall right behind my back and to my left.

Resolution is all that, but the speakers almost seem to be at the mercy of whatever recording I throw at them. There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis of the mids, and I find the effect fatiguing and unpleasant. I listen to a lot of classical/orchestral music, and one thing that seems to be a consistent problem is a harshness in the brass. The sense of a kind of brittle mid-y quality isn't limited to orchestral brass, though. Recent masters of, for example, David Bowie's YOUNG AMERICANS and STATION TO STATION, sounded harsh and blaring. Examples abound.

With respect for the usual suggestion, I am really not sure I can deal with a sub at this point; I understand why they are recommended, but I need my speakers to work well in a 2.0 setup before dealing with a whole new dimension and the physics that come with it. Can I make these Sierra-2s work in 2.0? I know the problem isn't simply a "lack" of bass, because I have played some fairly bass-intensive recordings (Andy Stott, Bjork, etc) at them and been very pleased by the quality and cohesion of the bass, even in my compromised little space. I look forward to a sub but only when I have the space and cash for a proper AVR and/or bass management system to handle it.

Nothing but love for the Ascend customer service, packing/shipping/etc. It might be my expectations, my taste or preferences, my upstream gear, etc. I am still looking for the magic, and I hope I can still find it with these speakers. I wondered if it was simply a matter of getting a dedicated CD player instead of a "universal" player (even a cheap but reportedly good player like the Onkyo 7030 that could possibly be a good cheap transport into fine DAC or AVR/DAC situation). And/or a nice DAC. And/or an AVR with a nice DAC and preamp, like perhaps one of the Yamaha Aventages or etc etc etc. This way lies madness.

The only real reason I post here before plaguing Ascend HQ is that it seems like it might be something that could be resolved with a little simple tweaking, a little smart spending, or not at all.

[Kef3992]

Does your room have any acoustical treatments?

[sludgeogre]

Edit: I didn't notice only 40 watts at Class D were used. More powerful amp is recommended.

[TonyMon]

Give Room EQ Wizard a try:

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/index.html#downloads

[bkdc]

I agree. It's the room. I didn't have many complaints about the initial sound, but spending 400 bucks at Acoustimac absolutely did wonders!

[Octave]

Thanks everyone. I should have known as much. A little embarrassed to rehash something so elementary, but I will look at this as an opportunity for exercise i.e. getting butt off couch repeatedly.

[davef]

Probably not a very interesting predicament, though I thought I'd share Too Much Info on my circumstances and preferences and maybe someone has had similar experience and could offer some pointers.

I've been using my Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers for almost 4 months now (about 300 hours of use), and my feelings are mixed/good. I used a pretty rudimentary set-up:
Oppo-103D (about half compact discs and half lossless files) -->Monoprice RCA connects-->NAD C316BEE 40W integrated amp-->Audioquest cables purchased in 2010--->Sierra-2 on Sanus 30" stands.
Unfortunately not much clearance on either side (maybe a foot from wall or furniture either side), but 2-3 feet from the back wall behind speakers. Speakers only about 4.5 feet apart...another disadvantage. Might be the room and arrangement, no? No fixing that presently, simply not an option.
Sitting ~7 feet away or so, ears right at the top edge of the woofers. Total space ~10ft x 15ft or so, with a wall right behind my back and to my left.

Resolution is all that, but the speakers almost seem to be at the mercy of whatever recording I throw at them. There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis of the mids, and I find the effect fatiguing and unpleasant. I listen to a lot of classical/orchestral music, and one thing that seems to be a consistent problem is a harshness in the brass. The sense of a kind of brittle mid-y quality isn't limited to orchestral brass, though. Recent masters of, for example, David Bowie's YOUNG AMERICANS and STATION TO STATION, sounded harsh and blaring. Examples abound.

With respect for the usual suggestion, I am really not sure I can deal with a sub at this point; I understand why they are recommended, but I need my speakers to work well in a 2.0 setup before dealing with a whole new dimension and the physics that come with it. Can I make these Sierra-2s work in 2.0? I know the problem isn't simply a "lack" of bass, because I have played some fairly bass-intensive recordings (Andy Stott, Bjork, etc) at them and been very pleased by the quality and cohesion of the bass, even in my compromised little space. I look forward to a sub but only when I have the space and cash for a proper AVR and/or bass management system to handle it.

Nothing but love for the Ascend customer service, packing/shipping/etc. It might be my expectations, my taste or preferences, my upstream gear, etc. I am still looking for the magic, and I hope I can still find it with these speakers. I wondered if it was simply a matter of getting a dedicated CD player instead of a "universal" player (even a cheap but reportedly good player like the Onkyo 7030 that could possibly be a good cheap transport into fine DAC or AVR/DAC situation). And/or a nice DAC. And/or an AVR with a nice DAC and preamp, like perhaps one of the Yamaha Aventages or etc etc etc. This way lies madness.

The only real reason I post here before plaguing Ascend HQ is that it seems like it might be something that could be resolved with a little simple tweaking, a little smart spending, or not at all.

This sounds a bit like amplifier clipping, considering the somewhat limited power of your NAD. If you have an SPL meter, please take a measurement and let me know how loud you are listening when you hear the issues you have described. If you don't have an SPL meter, I strongly recommend picking one up as it is a very useful tool.

Thanks in advance!

[Octave]

This sounds a bit like amplifier clipping, considering the somewhat limited power of your NAD. If you have an SPL meter, please take a measurement and let me know how loud you are listening when you hear the issues you have described. If you don't have an SPL meter, I strongly recommend picking one up as it is a very useful tool.

Thanks in advance!

Thanks, Dave...it's alarming to hear this.

I'm still almost completely ignorant about clipping, but I wonder if I've had gain issues without knowing it: I've usually had the Oppo 103's volume output set to 'variable', with its volume setting ~85-90 for most recordings, where the NAD's volume knob would be just a bit louder than comfortable if I were to push the Oppo's volume output to 100%.

Putting the volume output back to 'fixed', I'm now wondering if the problems have vanished. I've been moving my speakers around, so that's a possible fix; and I'm also probably more than a little susceptible to placebos.

How would I know if I've damaged my speakers? I am now living in dread.

Sorry to be such a noob about this, but I thought that my listening was not overly high-volume, and that clipping would be much more apparent to me. I suppose there's a reason instruments are used to get to the bottom of things....."SHOW ME THE DATA!"

Here's another recent thread re: Sierra-2 brightness that I missed, for others who have found this thread first:
Really-wanting-to-keep-the-Sierras (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?6370-Really-wanting-to-keep-the-Sierras)
Dave's suggestion therein for zero toe-in for the Sierra-2 was news to me, and it's one of the things I am trying now. Whatever cocktail of little things I've been doing is seeming to work. We will throw some Bruckner at it and see what's what.

[sludgeogre]

I missed that you only have 40 watts on a Class D amp in a small room. I used a Class D 30 watt amp on bookshelf speakers once and yeah, harsh is the first word I would use to describe it.

You should consider buying a more powerful amp. I love Emotiva amps, personally.

[davef]

Thanks, Dave...it's alarming to hear this.

I'm still almost completely ignorant about clipping, but I wonder if I've had gain issues without knowing it: I've usually had the Oppo 103's volume output set to 'variable', with its volume setting ~85-90 for most recordings, where the NAD's volume knob would be just a bit louder than comfortable if I were to push the Oppo's volume output to 100%.

Putting the volume output back to 'fixed', I'm now wondering if the problems have vanished. I've been moving my speakers around, so that's a possible fix; and I'm also probably more than a little susceptible to placebos.

How would I know if I've damaged my speakers? I am now living in dread.

Sorry to be such a noob about this, but I thought that my listening was not overly high-volume, and that clipping would be much more apparent to me. I suppose there's a reason instruments are used to get to the bottom of things....."SHOW ME THE DATA!"

Here's another recent thread re: Sierra-2 brightness that I missed, for others who have found this thread first:
Really-wanting-to-keep-the-Sierras (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?6370-Really-wanting-to-keep-the-Sierras)
Dave's suggestion therein for zero toe-in for the Sierra-2 was news to me, and it's one of the things I am trying now. Whatever cocktail of little things I've been doing is seeming to work. We will throw some Bruckner at it and see what's what.

You should not be using the variable output of the OPPO. Few people understand that this is a digital volume control, which can be very problematic (at best) We had a very similar issue with audible distortion when we attempted to use our OPPO 105 as the pre-amp. It was embarrassing as we had customers at our facility for a demo and we heard distortion / an uncomfortable edginess to the sound with our ribbon speakers (which are more revealing). I took the OPPO out of the system altogether and the distortion cleared up.

I thought our beloved 105 had issues so I quickly got in touch with the techs at OPPO and they recommended I keep the "volume" level on the OPPO to fixed and use a pre-amp (analog volume control) to adjust volume. Problem was instantly solved...

Give this a try and please report back. This is the first step to troubleshoot...

[Octave]

Good grief, I thought I'd replied to this thread two months ago. The ingratitude! Life has disrupted my listening and internet time repeatedly and I let this slip through the cracks.

As far as I can tell, the digital volume on the Oppo was the culprit; and I'm embarrassed it didn't occur to me sooner. Actually, I think I _had_ toggled between 'fixed' and 'variable' volume, but the experiment wasn't controlled enough to yield meaningful results. I've very lately been throwing dozens of very different kinds of recordings at the Sierra-2's and the results have been so much more beautiful than I remember from even two months ago. It might have been a weird, peristent, 'placebic' buyer's remorse as well. I rarely pay this much for anything at once. Whatever the case, I feel a lot better now than before. I'd written off the notion of speakers needing "burning in", but my feelings about the speakers are much better now.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Changing speaker placement has been almost as easy, and I think it's yielded some significant results.

I might also soon be in the market for a more powerful amp. For a variety of reasons, that might be an AVR rather than another integrated or separates....but the debate over the (dis)advantages of each of these leaves me dizzy and further confused, so I need to keep researching. I will probably revive a receiver recommendation thread to ask about relatively inexpensive options.
Apropos sludgeogre's comment above, I don't use a Class D, just a regular A/B 40w integrated amp. I am still concerned about the possibility of clipping, though I've been using the NIOSH sound meter app (albeit on an Iphone 5's internal mic, no external mic....please don't scoff!) and brief highest peaks almost never exceed ~85db(A), with ~80% of listening remaining under ~75db(A). Unless this method of measurement is worthless, that's where I stand with volume. An SPL meter will have to go on the acquisition list.

Sorry for the delay, but thanks everyone!

[eyecatcher]

I think that NAD should be sufficient for low listening levels. The s2's are very revealing so if your setup is not right they will let you know.

You would want to use fixed output volume on the 103 for your setup. Also make sure you have the latest firmware and that the speaker configuration reflects "Large" for the front, and "stereo" downmix. Also recommend that dynamic range control should be off. You can also try pure audio mode on the remote.

[sharkman]

How's this for a "life after Sierra 2" experience. I sold my Sierra 2's about 3 months ago when I basically replaced my entire system as I'd become disenchanted with it. Moved the new system to a smaller room and began experimenting with my new gear. That's when I realized the speakers I'd acquired to replace the S2 weren't up to snuff. I've got 3 different models of Tannoys and it just wasn't cutting it. Something was missing but I coudn't put my finger on it.

Finally I brought my Sierra 1's from the theater into this 2 channel system. I nearly dropped my coffee. That's when I realized I never should have sold the S2's. I compared them to some $5000 floorstanders at the time, and preferred the S2, except that the towers had better/more bass.

So anyway, I'm kind of tapped out at this point! So I ordered a pair of Sierra 1 for the 2 channel system(they sound amazing btw, breaking them in for 50 hours is suggested on this forum), with the sole goal of converting them to Sierra 2 next year. But, I may decide to just bite the bullet and order the Sierra Towers with Raal at that point.

The moral of the story? Sometimes you never know what you've got 'til it's gone.

[Octave]

Regarding the problem of digital volume: are there other 'sneaky' sources of digital volume which could present similar problems, something I should keep an eye out for when upgrading my set-up? I don't understand the way digital volume works, but e.g. I was considering Emotiva's budget pre PT-100, and a Redditor who'd corresponded with Emotiva wrote

[....]the volume is controlled by a digitally controlled analog volume ladder, meaning the signal remains analog as it is adjusted.
I didn't know how this differed from the Oppo 103 [used as a pre, with 'variable' digital volume], but I didn't want to buy gear that repeated this mistake and had to be removed completely. That would be a worse embarrassment.

I am considering the PT-100 with the A-300 power amp. I am not ready for big boy amplification yet, but for my needs, an AVR somehow seems like the wrong kind of overkill. I know that debate is endless and vicious, definitely not trying to open it here!

I really cannot overstate how much better the speakers sound to me. I'm not sure it was 100% a matter of my gaffe with the Oppo, even if that was the dumb/root mistake. Oddly enough, it was after a couple-few weeks of barely using the speakers at all, after a prolonged intense use of them, that they began to sound amazing to me. It's almost like I had to step away from them for weeks to wake up to them. I listened to some afaik exceptionally beautifully-recorded chamber music (killer Chausson by Devoyon et al on the Hyperion label) and my heart was in my throat.