New guy, help me spend my money!

[Fast351]

As a way of introduction, let me ask you guys and gals to help me out with some recommendations to replace my current speakers in my HT. I have a BIG HT(/office) area. No really. It's 20x40x9. Here is a picture:

http://www.fast351.com/personal/polebarn_room/images/IMG_0256.JPG

In case you're interested, this room is built in the back of my pole building. I'm fairly proud of the fact that the wife and I built this room all by ourselves save the insulation and concrete. And it turned out pretty nice. Links to the build pics: http://www.fast351.com/personal/polebarn_room/

Here is a list of equipment:

NAD T754 Receiver
NAD C272 2ch amp for L/R (150Wx2)
SVS PB12-ISD sub (older down firing ported 12" sub)
135" projection setup.

My current speakers are Polk Audio RT55i, CSi40 center, and RTi28 rears. They are just too small to fill the room and I want something higher quality to replace them. I have naturally landed here to ask questions.

My use is about 75%HT/25% music. My music tastes, when listening critically, are blues (SRV/Buddy Guy/Clapton) jazz (Diana Krull) classic rock (Pink Floyd, Dire Straits). Other music I enjoy is more 80s and Heavy Metal but I don't really sit down to listen to a whole album of that, more just background noise...

I am looking to replace with Sierra Towers/Horizon/1s for my 5.0 setup. I may replace the sub with a pair of sealed 12s down the road. I will be adding room treatments to the walls to reduce reflections...

My questions:

-Are the towers big enough on their own to fill this gigantic 6600+ cuft room? Or do I really need the subs to fill out the bottom end?
-Looking at my music tastes, are the RAAL tweeters worth the extra $1050 across the fronts?
-If I stick with the NrTs, is it worth upgrading the Sierra 1s to NrT to match timbre, or not really? It seems like surround speakers don't carry much more than audio ques.

Any other suggestions? Would love to hear from people that have been there...

Thanks!

-Mike

[sludgeogre]

My questions:

-Are the towers big enough on their own to fill this gigantic 6600+ cuft room? Or do I really need the subs to fill out the bottom end?
-Looking at my music tastes, are the RAAL tweeters worth the extra $1050 across the fronts?
-If I stick with the NrTs, is it worth upgrading the Sierra 1s to NrT to match timbre, or not really? It seems like surround speakers don't carry much more than audio ques.

Any other suggestions? Would love to hear from people that have been there...

The towers are certainly big enough and efficient enough to fill that room, but not in the low end for movies. You'll probably love them just fine with music, but for movies you'll still want a sub for LFE. It's just the way content is these days.

The RAAL tweeters aren't really about musical taste so much as they are about how you like to hear music. The NrT tweeters are great, I'm sure, but the added benefit of the RAAL tweeters is the extra level of detail and completely distortion free sound with a really wide dispersion. Some people like dome tweeters for one reason or another. I like a lot of them just fine, but have never heard one with such intense detail and smooth clarity as the RAALs. Is that kind of accuracy worth it for the cost to you, or would you rather save the money and still get great tweeters?

I think that timbre matching is really important for surrounds, because they get a lot more use these days actually, but I use the HTM 200 SE's which are far different from the RAAL's and they still sound great. Dave has such an incredible ear and measurement system that he can really closely timbre match his speakers for incredible accuracy. I still plan on getting the Sierra Lunas one day to have a fully matching system, but for right now I'm super happy with the HTM's as surrounds. If you want to save money on the surrounds it'll still sound pretty great. There's still a little bit of a mismatch as far as how accurate different tones sound as they pan around and other subtle things, but it's not distracting.

[Brannigan]

the ribbon tweeters are great at squealing guitars and violins. i like rock music and they were extremely worth it. as far as filling up the room, my room is 15x15 and i think they sound just right in here but they can go higher. i would think 20x20 would be fine but if you add a horizon you have 2 more woofers adding bass. i'm 99% music though. if it was mostly movies i'd probably do base towers in the front with a horizon, sierra nrt's to the left and right, and a couple fv15hp subs set at 50 or 60 hz.

[mikesiskav]

+1 on the Raal tweeters. Very clear and detailed but not harsh or bright at all. And definitely get a sub or two especially since you're 75% movies.

[Fast351]

OK, so I've pretty much settled on the following:

Sierra Towers and Horizon with NrTs in dark cherry up front.
Sierra 1s in back (maybe with NrT upgrade? not sure) I may wall mount them as opposed to the stands I have my current surrounds on as they are a little tippy.

That puts me at 3900-4200 depending on the NrT for the rears.

Now, if I were to upgrade subs, I want to stay under 2K as I'm already spending past my budget (don't tell the wife). I think with a room this size I would really benefit from duals, so:

HSU has a pair of sealed 15s (ULS15MK2) for 1799 (with the rosenut veneer which looks like a pretty good match for the dark cherry). That's kind of the bar.

SVS has a pair of sealed 12s (SB2000) for 1298. Not wild about the finish, and of course they're 12s not 15s. A single SB13-Ultra is 1599, but then I have a single, not a pair, and as I understand it room placement is much more critical with a single.

Rythmic of course has their F12s, which would be around 1600. For a little more I could go piano black, but to be honest it really doesn't match anything and probably save the money for other things...

PSA has their S1500 but that really blows the budget at 2400 if I want the cherry veneer. Satin black would be 1900 so more in line with the budget.

Anyone heard more than one of these brands against eachother? I have an SVS now and like the sub, but much has changed since I got that more than a decade ago...

Thanks!

[sludgeogre]

If you're looking for total accuracy you have to go with Rythmik. Keep in mind you get 150 bucks off if you buy two subs. I'd skip piano black and just get the normal black matte ones. They just look like one big driver anyway, so matching them to the speaker veneer isn't really that important IMO. They sort of fade into the background like furniture, so black makes them not stick out. I think it looks nice in a lot of setups. Keep in mind that the veneer of the HSU and Sierra speakers may not match exactly and that might drive you even more insane than just having black subs.

I think HSU has a lot going for them in terms of value and output. Everyone is always wowed at his presentations. SVS just has great marketing, I don't see much value in their subs. They are a bit overpriced for what they are. DIY guys can make subs that sound as good or better than SVS for less than half the money. PSA is even more overpriced, IMO.

I think the benefits of direct servo subs far outweigh the bigger subs you listed. They're able to do a lot more with what they have and the incredible dynamics and quick transient response match the Sierra Towers really well.

[billy p]

If you're looking for total accuracy you have to go with Rythmik. Keep in mind you get 150 bucks off if you buy two subs. I'd skip piano black and just get the normal black matte ones. They just look like one big driver anyway, so matching them to the speaker veneer isn't really that important IMO. They sort of fade into the background like furniture, so black makes them not stick out. I think it looks nice in a lot of setups. Keep in mind that the veneer of the HSU and Sierra speakers may not match exactly and that might drive you even more insane than just having black subs.

I think HSU has a lot going for them in terms of value and output. Everyone is always wowed at his presentations. SVS just has great marketing, I don't see much value in their subs. They are a bit overpriced for what they are. DIY guys can make subs that sound as good or better than SVS for less than half the money. PSA is even more overpriced, IMO

I think the benefits of direct servo subs far outweigh the bigger subs you listed. They're able to do a lot more with what they have and the incredible dynamics and quick transient response match the Sierra Towers really well.

Lot of bias going on around here lately...for something as subjective as speakers and sub...maybe time to move on from this forum...wow.

[sludgeogre]

Lot of bias going on around here lately...for something as subjective as speakers and sub...maybe time to move on from this forum...wow.

Just an opinion, and yep it is biased. Take it with a grain of salt, FWIW, YMMV, all of that stuff. The comment about DIY is just from forum browsing and FB groups with DIY enthusiasts that post their builds. Nothing nearly as beautiful as the sub that you have, but great value. You can even DIY a Rythmik sub and just buy the driver and amp from them and build your own box as well.

[Jaybeez]

Lot of bias going on around here lately...for something as subjective as speakers and sub...maybe time to move on from this forum...wow.

IMO = In my opinion. Opinions are something I'm OK with on forums. It's when folks state them as fact that I get my dander up, particularly (to your point) with something as subjective as speakers and sub.

OP, I auditioned every speaker at the AA shop in San Clemente. I listened to about a dozen familiar tracks on the full line of speakers. Diana Krall on Sierra 2's made that sale for me. The detail was unlike anything I'd heard before.

[billy p]

Just an opinion, and yep it is biased. Take it with a grain of salt, FWIW, YMMV, all of that stuff. The comment about DIY is just from forum browsing and FB groups with DIY enthusiasts that post their builds. Nothing nearly as beautiful as the sub that you have, but great value. You can even DIY a Rythmik sub and just buy the driver and amp from them and build your own box as well.

Are you aware or even cognizant of the amount of guys who actually own a Ascend Acoustics products and overpriced PSA or Svs subs.

[sludgeogre]

Are you aware or even cognizant of the amount of guys who actually own a Ascend Acoustics products and overpriced PSA or Svs subs.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, and yeah a lot of people own a lot of products. I'm not trying to poo-poo any of them, just stating where I think the value is and what I've heard from perusing lots of different forums and groups. If you compare them watt for watt, you get more from Rythmik, especially if you're buying dual subs since you get the discount I mentioned.

Also not sure about the Ascend comments, I own Towers and Horizon with RAAL as well and I totally love them. As for PSA I rarely hear much about them, but SVS is immensely popular, thus why I said the comment about marketing. Their marketing really is on point, very flashy, and I don't know about everyone else but their ads show up in my facebook feed all the time, and they are always at the big audio shows (CEDIA, RMAF, etc..) so it looks like they pump a good amount of cash into their marketing and sales. Ascend doesn't do that so they are able to offer their products for much lower prices, something I appreciate.

The discussion of transient response in the other thread bears mentioning as well, as it's a big selling point of Rythmik and Ascend/RAAL. I first heard about Rythmik subs on a Magnepan user group, and was very surprised to see Dave's comments on giving up subwoofer design and selling Rythmik subs. They are probably the most popular sub among Magnepan owners except for the DWM bass panel (if you can call it a sub, it needs a stereo amp for power and it's still a quasi-ribbon panel). This is precisely because of the transient response characteristics of direct servo subs. Magnepan''s planar and quasi-ribbon speakers are incredibly "fast" and clear sounding since the large diaphragms aren't connected to a voice coil, but rather the coil is on the panel and magnets are suspended around the frame, kind of like a giant ribbon tweeter except that it's not a true ribbon like the RAAL tweeters are. In my addiction to that accuracy I've been lead to Ascend and Rythmik. All of that on top of the fact that I only paid 1580 bucks for my dual F12's with XLR inputs and I just don't see that kind of value anywhere else. Again, just my experience and opinion. Hopefully others will throw theirs out there.

[Johnny_Mac_III]

Where is your seating position from the front wall and how far away are you from the front speakers?

[Fast351]

If you look at the first post in this thread you will see a picture that shows the room setup. Basically the couch is 13' back from the projection wall. The screen is a 135", so the width is 122" or just over 10' wide. The speakers are right next to the screen so call it 11-12' between speaker centerlines. I should be able to have the baffle at least 2' from the wall (the AV rack is about 2' deep) so 12-14 inches behind the speakers with no problems.

That makes the distance to the speakers from the sweet spot about 11'.

Make sense?

[Johnny_Mac_III]

If you look at the first post in this thread you will see a picture that shows the room setup. Basically the couch is 13' back from the projection wall. The screen is a 135", so the width is 122" or just over 10' wide. The speakers are right next to the screen so call it 11-12' between speaker centerlines. I should be able to have the baffle at least 2' from the wall (the AV rack is about 2' deep) so 12-14 inches behind the speakers with no problems.

That makes the distance to the speakers from the sweet spot about 11'.

Make sense?

Gotcha.

Just want to start out by saying that your seating position is perfect. 32% from front or back wall is a very neutral position.

Either of the Sierra Towers or the Horizon will provide you with reference level dynamics from your seating position.

I would definitely go for the RAALs. Especially since you will be adding acoustic treatment to get the full benefit of the amazing decay time and take advantage of the amazing detail that a tweeter that lightweight can provide.

You will need a sub for 80hz and lower and a powerful one if you want to pressurize your 7200 cubic foot room at reference volume. I would look at the FV15hp or F25. If you can, I would get 2 and place them in opposite corners. A pair of sealed 12s will not pressurize your room.

Personally, I am a huge proponent of matching timbre. I would get the Sierra Sats if you go the RAAL route. Some don't find that matching timbre for surrounds that important, but in a well treated room, I would.

Hope this helps. Also, if you had to budget, I would set pressurizing a room with subwoofers as the highest priority as I think that will make the biggest difference (even with music).

[rsmt2000]

Are you aware or even cognizant of the amount of guys who actually own a Ascend Acoustics products and overpriced PSA or Svs subs.

I myself have both rythmik and psa subs. The reason I went with psa is because they had a sealed sub with veneer options matching the ascend espresso towers. Not withstanding the price which is cheap, it sounds fantastic and is a winner in both aesthetics and performance both for music and movies.

I don't have any interest in going after listing the components used, made in China vs USA, etc and figure out which sub really is cheap but for the money I spent on a veneered sub I am quite happy. Also the price included shipping and a 45 day trial period with return shipping included which now think they increased to 60 days.

I really wish Rythmik comes out with some way to offer cheap.er.. options than variations of black. I would be first in line to place orders for the E15 HPs in veneered options:-)

I know at least a few others using non rythmik subs with ascend speakers and quite happy with them - Our own Rob from AVRant being one among them with SVS;-)

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks
Ron

[billy p]

I myself have both rythmik and psa subs. The reason I went with psa is because they had a sealed sub with veneer options matching the ascend espresso towers. Not withstanding the price which is cheap, it sounds fantastic and is a winner in both aesthetics and performance both for music and movies.

I don't have any interest in going after listing the components used, made in China vs USA, etc and figure out which sub really is cheap but for the money I spent on a veneered sub I am quite happy. Also the price included shipping and a 45 day trial period with return shipping included which now think they increased to 60 days.

I really wish Rythmik comes out with some way to offer cheap.er.. options than variations of black. I would be first in line to place orders for the E15 HPs in veneered options:-)

I know at least a few others using non rythmik subs with ascend speakers and quite happy with them - Our own Rob from AVRant being one among them with SVS;-)

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks
Ron

Thanks for sharing...veneer options was precisely why I elected to go with PSA over alternative subs form Svs or even Rythmik. And yes....Rob aka: FirstReflect better known around here or FristReflections over at AH...is very serious about sound quality and owns several Svs subs...iirc and fwiw.

Cheers,

Bill

[davef]

Guys,

All opinions are fully welcome here - and also encouraged. The only time I will pop in and correct or call out an opinion is when facts are being stated that are simply not true. I find our forum members here to be some of the most knowledgeable and experienced anywhere - as well as being friendly and respectful to everyone. Really, the only thing not welcome being discussed here or recommended are snake oil products - for which the many different brands of subwoofers often recommended here are most certainly not.

Let's keep things respectful, fun and educational for everyone :)

[Brannigan]

If anything i would just get a single fv15hp for now if there's no other choice. correct me if i'm wrong but i read they can do 12hz at 90ish db which takes like...5 lesser subs to add up to if they can even do 12hz at all? looks like you need output and the fv15hp has it.