New Sierra 1 owner needs some suggestions/ help

[Elessar]

Hey guys,
I just recieved my new Sierra 1 speakers. I am upgrading from TV speakers so dont really have good baseline for the room (but i have relatively decent/good headphones). Once i had it all set up and started playing music, I could tell they are good speakers, I could hear a lot more in the songs that i have before, the soundstage was quite impressive as well.
So while i like the speakers, there just seems something missing, something that brings everything together and gets the magic flowing (hopefully i am not sounding like a crazy person but not sure how to exactly describe it).

I am not sure if its something to do with how i have my speakers set up or the room or the speakers itself. I want to say the vocals are a bit recessed compared to the all the other instruments but not sure if that is the thing.

I am hoping its something to do with how i have done the set up and its not the speakers themselves.

Any ideas on how to debug and correct this situation will be immensely helpful

[sludgeogre]

Need some more details before I can suggest help:

- What electronics are you using? (Outboard DAC or TV connected to amp? What kind of amp? What power rating?)
- Do you have any electronic room correction capabilities? Are you using them? Do you want to use room correction?
- Is your primary listening done with music or movies? What is important to sound the best?
- Do you use a subwoofer? Do you want to use a subwoofer? If you are, how is it implemented?
- How are the speakers positioned? (How far from the back and side walls, are they on a console or are they on stands? Are they positioned so that the plane of the speakers is in front of the TV? Are you obeying the golden triangle rule? Is there a coffee table?)
- What is the room like? (Enclosed or open to other rooms? Square or complex geometry? Carpet or hard floor? Rugs? Curtains? Wall treatments?)

Usually any one of these questions can impact the kinds of things you're mentioning, IE those last couple tweaks that can make the whole thing come together. Once you know all of the other factors, you can figure out what kinds of compromises need to be made to get the best sound out of your equipment and your room.

[Elessar]

Thanks sludgeogre. Answers to your questions inline

Need some more details before I can suggest help:

- What electronics are you using? (Outboard DAC or TV connected to amp? What kind of amp? What power rating?)
speakers and TV are connected to marantz sr 5010 AVR

- Do you have any electronic room correction capabilities? Are you using them? Do you want to use room correction?
The AVR has audyssey support. When i tried audyssey it didnt help. So right now its turned off. EQ is flat. I am not opposed to using audyssey if it can help (infact i am going to retry today).

- Is your primary listening done with music or movies? What is important to sound the best?
Music is imp to sound the best.

- Do you use a subwoofer? Do you want to use a subwoofer? If you are, how is it implemented?
I don't have one right now. Lets assume for this discussion i wont have one (if i do i plan to get an L12).


- How are the speakers positioned? (How far from the back and side walls, are they on a console or are they on stands? Are they positioned so that the plane of the speakers is in front of the TV? Are you obeying the golden triangle rule? Is there a coffee table?)

about 2.5 feet from side walls. and a 12-18 inches from back wall. They are on stands.
plane of the speaker is in front of TV. Infact for TV the speakers are working well. I had multiple ppl think that the sound is coming from TV not the speakers (and the TV is about 20 inches higher than speakers, mounted above FP).
If the golden triangle rule is that MLP , and 2 speakers form and equilateral triangle then no. If thats not what you meant, then probably no.
There is a coffee table.


- What is the room like? (Enclosed or open to other rooms? Square or complex geometry? Carpet or hard floor? Rugs? Curtains? Wall treatments?)
room is 18x18x9. Opens to kitchen and dining room behind. The whole area is hardwood but i do have a area rug in front of the couch. one side of the whole floor is basically windows.


Usually any one of these questions can impact the kinds of things you're mentioning, IE those last couple tweaks that can make the whole thing come together. Once you know all of the other factors, you can figure out what kinds of compromises need to be made to get the best sound out of your equipment and your room.
I have attached a picture to give a better idea.

1354

[white_darren]

I have a similar set up except I also have a S1 center, a Rythmik E15 sub and Marantz SR6008.

I'm sure the speakers are probably fine. Give the Audyssey another try, or six, varying the mic positioning a little each time until you get good results. I've found mic placement has a huge impact on the results. In a room with lots of hard surfaces, you probably need the correction. I know I did.

Initially I just had the L-C-R but no sub. Sounded great for TV and even had surprisingly good bass with movies. Music really seemed a bit flat though. Room correction helped significantly compared to the out-of-the-box setup but it was still just "missing something". Adding the sub took things to a whole new level. While the bass of the S1 is superb for such a compact speaker, it really starts to get lost in a large open space (my living room is about 20x26x10 open to a total volume of over 18000 ft3, we have a very open floor plan). For me, the sub was the missing piece of the puzzle. I was expecting more low frequency punch from movies but I was absolutely astonished at how much fuller and richer music became after adding the sub. It's truly marvelous. I'm sure a lot of the change was simply the massive difference in low frequency energy of the sub relative to the S1s. I'm also sure letting the sub power the low end relieved the AVR and Sierras of the stress of trying to provide enough bass to fill such a large area and allowed that energy to be put into the mids and highs.

Definitely give the Audyssey another chance.

[Mag_Neato]

Don't know how flexible you are with speaker placement, but here's a method that has yielded excellent results with my Sierra-2's:
http://www.hifi.ir/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/master-set.pdf

[sludgeogre]

Since you are in a square room, low frequency sound is going to be an issue no matter what you do. You will be amazed if you add a subwoofer, and even more amazed if you add two. You are most likely fighting room modes due to the square room. Bass trapping can help a bit, but you really need subs before you get into that. Highly recommend getting a sub or preferably two and running audyssey a bunch of times to dial it in.

[mattyhoops]

I too recently purchased a pair of Sierra 1's, along with a Sierra 1 center. I have a similar room with hardwood floor and large openings to other rooms of the house. After setting up the speakers and running Audyssey I had a similar reaction as you. Bass wasn't the problem for me though. The mids sounded thin and the treble was very bright. My problem ended up being Audyssey. I have the oldest, lowest level 2EQ. While trying to do room correction it made the speakers sound worse. With Audyssey off the speakers sound fantastic. The mids filled in and the treble now sounds natural. On your Marantz you have MultEQ XT. So Audyssey shouldn't be the problem. In theory it should help. Sorry, I know my post isn't very helpful. Just wanted to let you know you're not alone. I also had a similar initial reaction.

[Beave]

That room looks really nice to me - but for sound I think it's too open and reflective.

My girlfriend's house is somewhat similar, with hardwood floors, a small/medium rug, a flat smooth ceiling, and lots of empty walls. My place has full carpeting and lots more furniture crammed in a smaller space. My Sierras sound very different at my place than at her place. I prefer the sound at my place by a lot.

I know you're probably limited in how you can alter the room, but a bigger rug, some curtains on the side, or bookshelves, or some other furniture along the sides, or even acoustic panels on the side walls, will help reduce the liveliness.

To be fair though, some people like lively rooms for sound. Some people like really dead rooms with acoustic panels almost everywhere. I like somewhere in between. This room looks more on the lively side of the spectrum.

[Elessar]

I have a similar set up except I also have a S1 center, a Rythmik E15 sub and Marantz SR6008.

I'm sure the speakers are probably fine. Give the Audyssey another try, or six, varying the mic positioning a little each time until you get good results. I've found mic placement has a huge impact on the results. In a room with lots of hard surfaces, you probably need the correction. I know I did.

Initially I just had the L-C-R but no sub. Sounded great for TV and even had surprisingly good bass with movies. Music really seemed a bit flat though. Room correction helped significantly compared to the out-of-the-box setup but it was still just "missing something". Adding the sub took things to a whole new level. While the bass of the S1 is superb for such a compact speaker, it really starts to get lost in a large open space (my living room is about 20x26x10 open to a total volume of over 18000 ft3, we have a very open floor plan). For me, the sub was the missing piece of the puzzle. I was expecting more low frequency punch from movies but I was absolutely astonished at how much fuller and richer music became after adding the sub. It's truly marvelous. I'm sure a lot of the change was simply the massive difference in low frequency energy of the sub relative to the S1s. I'm also sure letting the sub power the low end relieved the AVR and Sierras of the stress of trying to provide enough bass to fill such a large area and allowed that energy to be put into the mids and highs.

Definitely give the Audyssey another chance.

I did try audyssey again. Didnt help a lot. The sub idea seems like a good one. I am going to see if i can try and set something up.

[Elessar]

Since you are in a square room, low frequency sound is going to be an issue no matter what you do. You will be amazed if you add a subwoofer, and even more amazed if you add two. You are most likely fighting room modes due to the square room. Bass trapping can help a bit, but you really need subs before you get into that. Highly recommend getting a sub or preferably two and running audyssey a bunch of times to dial it in.

Can you point me to more info the room mode etc.

[natetg57]

Hey guys,
I just recieved my new Sierra 1 speakers. I am upgrading from TV speakers so dont really have good baseline for the room (but i have relatively decent/good headphones). Once i had it all set up and started playing music, I could tell they are good speakers, I could hear a lot more in the songs that i have before, the soundstage was quite impressive as well.
So while i like the speakers, there just seems something missing, something that brings everything together and gets the magic flowing (hopefully i am not sounding like a crazy person but not sure how to exactly describe it).

I am not sure if its something to do with how i have my speakers set up or the room or the speakers itself. I want to say the vocals are a bit recessed compared to the all the other instruments but not sure if that is the thing.

I am hoping its something to do with how i have done the set up and its not the speakers themselves.

Any ideas on how to debug and correct this situation will be immensely helpful

One key principle in room setup is to achieve symmetry with the speakers in the room. You want the speakers to be the same distance from the rear and side walls. Since the equipment stand seems to be pushing the right speaker farther into the room, I would try it rotated 90 degrees and on the side wall. The speakers could be placed closer to each other and the same distance from the rear wall. That might sound better than what you have now.

[davef]

Thanks sludgeogre. Answers to your questions inline

I have attached a picture to give a better idea.

1354

What height are those stands?

[Elessar]

What height are those stands?

sorry for the late response was out of town.

The stands are 24 inches

[Quinn]

sorry for the late response was out of town.

The stands are 24 inches

Tweeters should be at ear level for your main listening position.

[sludgeogre]

Can you point me to more info the room mode etc.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, somehow missed it.

Here's a great article on room modes, but unfortunately they never finished it with a part 2, but it is a great primer on the subject: http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1

If you enter your room dimensions into the calculator, you will see that there are a lot of zeros on the adjacent mode spacing column, and that you have modes at 31.4, 62.8, 94.2, and 125.6 Hz that are all evenly spaced. You don't want this as it creates cancellations at those frequencies, and that is really what a room mode boils down to. Dave or someone else please chime in if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand it.

If you compare that output to a room that is, say, 19 x 14 x 9, you'll see that there are no modes which are adjacent, IE, the adjacent mode spacing is never 0, which means that those frequencies will not tend to be cancelled nearly as much, and you'll have a more consistent frequency response as a result.

The only way to effectively combat difficult room modes is through multiple subwoofers, room correction, and bass trapping.

[Elessar]

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, somehow missed it.

Here's a great article on room modes, but unfortunately they never finished it with a part 2, but it is a great primer on the subject: http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1

If you enter your room dimensions into the calculator, you will see that there are a lot of zeros on the adjacent mode spacing column, and that you have modes at 31.4, 62.8, 94.2, and 125.6 Hz that are all evenly spaced. You don't want this as it creates cancellations at those frequencies, and that is really what a room mode boils down to. Dave or someone else please chime in if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand it.

If you compare that output to a room that is, say, 19 x 14 x 9, you'll see that there are no modes which are adjacent, IE, the adjacent mode spacing is never 0, which means that those frequencies will not tend to be cancelled nearly as much, and you'll have a more consistent frequency response as a result.

The only way to effectively combat difficult room modes is through multiple subwoofers, room correction, and bass trapping.
Thanks @sludgeogre that was a good read. Actually the room isnt 19x19 from walls POV. It was effective size of the room. I have attached the exact dimensions. so using 19*35*9 there are no adjacent spaced 0 modes1359

So I have finally tweaked and settled on a good placement and reciever spot for sierra 1 where i am enjoying them. I have unpacked my cmt 340s( I am auditioning between 340 and sierra 1 for now, to pick the one i like the most) to try them out as well. Will keep folks here posted in case ppl are interested in my impressions.

[sludgeogre]

Gotcha, those big open areas can cause a big pain as well. I'm in the same kind of situation and the only thing that has helped is having dual subwoofers along the front wall. The bass response in the center of the room, where the couch is, still isn't as great as it as at the back and sides of the room, though. I'd have to treat the hell out of the room to fix that.

Hope you enjoy the CMT 340. I really want to try them out in my big open room in my new house as well.