Diamond Tweeter?

[davef]

Just yesterday I had the pleasure of having Claus from SEAS visit us for the day. We spent most of the time discussing our forthcoming Sierra Sat and about potential new business and new products. We have been working directly with SEAS now for 15 years -- hard to believe it but where has the time gone???

Claus then tells me he has something he wants me to hear... He breaks out this small mysterious box, revealing two very well protected objects that look like tweeters. I have been a tweeter guy since I started in this industry so he instantly had my interest.

To my surprise, he unwrapped 2 of the new SEAS White Diamond tweeters. My first thoughts were, wow, stunning craftsmanship but with a retail price of $6800 for (2) tweeters, I really wasn't too interested.

Claus eventually convinced me to measure and have a listen...

15 mins turned into 2 hours rather quickly...

Everyone here also wanted to have a listen...

I have evaluated countless numbers of dome tweeters in my 30+ years in this industry. From cheap $4.00 domes to the highest quality BE domes.. This diamond dome left me speechless, literally.

I know the next question will be "well how does it compare to a RAAL ribbon?" -- truth is, it has a ribbon quality to the highs but does upper mids better, and has practically unlimited power and dynamics when properly implemented.

For those of our customers who prefer the sound of a dome tweeter, let me tell you it simply doesn't get any better than this.

Sadly, my time with Claus came to an end but we left with discussion about the possibilities of making us our own version of this tweeter that would be a drop-in-replacement (with new crossover) for any of our Sierra dome speakers. It is simply the most expensive tweeter I have ever come across and we could not afford to stock them here, but I am thinking we might have customers interested in what would likely be the finest dome tweeter bookshelf or tower speaker on the market.

There is one 2-way bookshelf speaker out there that is using this tweeter, and the speaker retails for $25K/pair. Of course, we would be able to match or exceed this performance and offer the speaker for much less. Each would be custom ordered with likely a 4-6 week lead time - but Dina and Joe are convinced we would have interested customers.

So naturally, I'm a bit curious. Anyone interested in a "diamond" line?

I have a attached a few pics from yesterday.

[Blutarsky]

I think a lot of people would be interested if the price was right. How about putting it in a new Sierra Max Tower? Ascend fans would follow the brand all the way up.

[dtsequoia]

Match this thing with some SEAS Excel woofers...I think you'd have a beast.

[theophile]

So naturally, I'm a bit curious. Anyone interested in a "diamond" line?

Very interesting Dave! Just Yesterday morning, I was showing my best half the Seas T29D001 from Madisound..she loved the looks of the acrylic rear chamber (though it was Swarovski crystal...go figure)! :rolleyes: I'm sure it does sound incredible and has its place, but...

My impression is that a dome of this esoteric caliper would be 5 to 6x the investment cost of the RAAL with over 30x more moving mass. A RAAL replacement ribbon is about $50-$75...B&W Diamond dome repair, about $1,300! :eek: For a no holds bared speaker system design where price is the Last consideration, sure, the diamond domes are probably one of the top high range transducers in the audio market. Would a huge jump in system cost implementation to achieve a marginal upper midrange improvement be worth it???

Although I've not yet heard the Ascend custom RAAL design systems, if they are in another league in accurate and natural high frequency reproduction (compared to my S1 NrT upgrade), other than gaining more vertical dispersion characteristics with an extremely expensive dome design, I believe Ascend has already overall achieved fantastic "Dollar Value" speaker reproduction systems!

Just my 2 cents (from a NrT dome lover)!! ;)

Ted

[Todd WI]

Wow! Does it come in cubic zirconia?

[theophile]

BTW Dave, what is the 3db down Vertical\Horizontal dispersion characteristics of the 70-10 RAAL as implemented in the Sierra2?

[sludgeogre]

I already spent quite enough, I can't ever see myself going for that, but I'm just a lowly chemical engineer making glue. I love the detailed yet smooth character of the RAAL ribbons, so these would have to do that while also getting more vertical dispersion, because that's really the only thing missing with the RAAL.

Also, yeah it would have to be mated to some kind of crazy new woofer to make the overall package all of the same caliber.

[curtis]

BTW Dave, what is the 3db down Vertical\Horizontal dispersion characteristics of the 70-10 RAAL as implemented in the Sierra2?
It's not a 70-10 in the Sierra-2. It is an entirely different model...not listed on RAAL's website

On the measurements page, you can see the off axis characteristics.

[justthinking]

A few questions popped up in my mind after reading Dave's post

1. Will the current woofer in the Sierra-2 be a good match to this new diamond tweeter or will it became the weak link?

2. Will SEAS be able to make a lower cost version of this tweeter or is this $6,800 pair the only version they will offer and if SEAS does come out with a lower cost version, will it still be better than RAAL or even the diamond tweeter from B&W or the BE tweeter from Focal? (BTW, I believe RAAL is better than both)

3. Base on answer to question #2, how will the pricing structure work? I can see Ascend's customer base spending $3,000, maybe $3,500 for a pair of bookshelf speakers but if we are talking about $6,000+ I really don't think you will get much interest from your current customers

I believe most of the Ascend's customers who ordered the Sierra lineups are savvy internet users that value the great performance offered at such incredible price, which is the exact opposite from the cost is no objective crowd..

The only way I can see this custom order model success will be for Dave to start attending audio shows and show case the finished product to attract those who are into the high price custom build market...

[theophile]

It's not a 70-10 in the Sierra-2. It is an entirely different model...not listed on RAAL's website

On the measurements page, you can see the off axis characteristics.

Thanks Curtis for the heads-up, just overlooked the dispersion response graph. Understood it is a custom RAAL design, just looks like their 70-10D ribbon model.

Ted

[merrymaid520]

B stock pricing on this thing? ;)

Interesting! In a few years (after we move) I might have some interest in a high end Tower. While you are at it, any advantage to going all out and investigating some of the high end SEAS mid and bass drivers too?

Maybe I can continue the trend.....get the first pair Brandon, you cheapskate.

[curtis]

Thanks Curtis for the heads-up, just overlooked the dispersion response graph. Understood it is a custom RAAL design, just looks like their 70-10D ribbon model.

Ted
It's a bit smaller than the 70-10, and the backside is different.

[SGCSG1]

What are we talking about here? A ten thousand dollar monitor?

[curtis]

Just had a look at it on the SEAS website.

The faceplate is made of Corian...the stuff the make kitchen counters out of. Wow.

[theophile]

Yep, and to better match the diamond dome transducer, a machined granite faceplate with a Swarovski Crystal rear resonant chamber and 24K gold terminals would help to swallow the investment price-of-admission (but then, all that stuff may just sound like %#@&*$, hehe)! :rolleyes:

Knowing Dave and Seas, they'll get a supreme custom diamond transducer created that will be pure audio magic at a fraction of current market value, however that would probably still triple the S2 and tower value purchases. Considering that scenario, the potential real world performance versus with what is out in the market place now (a Lot of Extreme High $$$ speaker systems), this could be an exciting auditory industry revelation King at a small fraction of investment...Hmmmmmm!!!

Ted

[RPM]

Being a Dome Tweeter guy this looks very interesting!! Yeah I can picture that in my Tower..��

[Coaster]

Will someone who already owns RAAL towers be able to upgrade his towers to this new dome super-tweeter?

If yes, count me in.

[S20]

I genuinely can't figure out if this is a late April Fool prank or not.

[theophile]

I genuinely can't figure out if this is a late April Fool prank or not.

No prank, HERE (http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=494:e0100-04-t29d001&catid=50:excel-tweeters&Itemid=360) it exist!!

Seems Dave put it out there to determine what interest the Ascend loyalty may have with what could be described as the "world's best tweeter"! The RAAL investment has been a huge success for Ascend and if the auditory gain of the Seas Diamond Dome can be as significant as the RAAL was over the Sierra 1 dome (at a reasonable cost), audiophiles could come away with the possibility of a "World Class Monitor/Tower"! :cool:

Ted

[SGCSG1]

No prank, HERE (http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=494:e0100-04-t29d001&catid=50:excel-tweeters&Itemid=360) it exist!!

Seems Dave put it out there to determine what interest the Ascend loyalty may have with what could be described as the "world's best tweeter"! The RAAL investment has been a huge success for Ascend and if the auditory gain of the Seas Diamond Dome can be as significant as the RAAL was over the Sierra 1 dome (at a reasonable cost), audiophiles could come away with the possibility of a "World Class Monitor/Tower"! :cool:

Ted

I don't think 'reasonable cost' is part of this equation. I think this is new territory - 'cost no object'.

[theophile]

I don't think 'reasonable cost' is part of this equation. I think this is new territory - 'cost no object'.

You're correct SG. For Ascend's equation, this does seem like a "cost no object" growth toward audio reproduction perfection. However, after reviewing the world audiophile speaker systems market place (ranging from $10K on up through $1M...and yes, totally out of my interest and pocket book... see HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3asql199O38) ), then Ascend and Dave could bring to that top-end speaker elitist group a true "Reasonable Cost" product that certainly would not give up Anything to the top end speaker market in the way of realistic home audio speaker musical reproduction.

Probably like most here though, wondering would an incremental increase a diamond high end could offer, be worth 3x+ the price tag of their already superb RAAL high end systems? I can't answer that and seems Dave is in the beginning stages to determine answers to the same questions. But I'm sure if he goes for it, between Seas and Ascend, they'll obtain a world class transducer system that for it's final price-of-admission, befuddle the speaker industry with the question, "how'd he do that"?!

Ted

[billy p]

I might consider this option down the road...only if its priced in affordable range like the all the Ascend products and includes a simple drop-in package. I've thought about doing the RAAL upgrade to my mains but they require being shipped back to Ascend for proper installation, hence my reluctance.

No money tree but I'd try and make it work...:)

[davef]

BTW Dave, what is the 3db down Vertical\Horizontal dispersion characteristics of the 70-10 RAAL as implemented in the Sierra2?

The tweeter in the Sierra-2 is a custom RAAL, made specifically for us. I generally recommend a vertical listening window of +/- 15 degrees. For your setup, the increased vertical directivity of our ribbon tweeters is not a concern.

[davef]

I genuinely can't figure out if this is a late April Fool prank or not.

LOL - definitely no joke. My thoughts on this are that we will likely see a few more speakers on the market using this tweeter and selling for tens of thousands. Using our existing bamboo cabinets, we can likely release a pair of bookshelf speakers using this tweeter and an appropriate woofer for somewhere between $5-6K /pair, while also offering an upgrade option for current customers. This tweeter has a really unique sound that is quite addicting.

The first step is that SEAS must find a way to offer the tweeter to us such that it would be the correct mechanical fit into our existing cabinets. If they are able to accomplish that, Claus agreed to memo loan me a pair of the tweeters and from there, I would design the speaker and upgrades. At that point, I would be able to truly compare to the RAAL versions and determine if pursuing further development is worthwhile.

It is not a project that I would expect to bring us any reasonable revenue -- but I often find myself designing products just for the pure love of it

[davef]

B stock pricing on this thing? ;)

Interesting! In a few years (after we move) I might have some interest in a high end Tower. While you are at it, any advantage to going all out and investigating some of the high end SEAS mid and bass drivers too?

Maybe I can continue the trend.....get the first pair Brandon, you cheapskate.

I will reserve the first pair for you Brandon ;)

I have nearly every SEAS Excel woofer and tweeter here. When and if the time comes to start the design process, I will absolutely consider using one of these woofers, along with many others that I feel would be equally appropriate.

[theophile]

The tweeter in the Sierra-2 is a custom RAAL, made specifically for us. I generally recommend a vertical listening window of +/- 15 degrees. For your setup, the increased vertical directivity of our ribbon tweeters is not a concern.

Thanks Dave! I'll be in a better position late June to receive the Sierra 2's in P. Black!

As per this thread comments, will also closely follow your development of a diamond dome top end transducer\monitor system...!!!

Ted

[merrymaid520]

I will reserve the first pair for you Brandon ;)

I have nearly every SEAS Excel woofer and tweeter here. When and if the time comes to start the design process, I will absolutely consider using one of these woofers, along with many others that I feel would be equally appropriate.

Well, I heard McDonalds is now hiring. Im off to apply for a second job to afford these gems! (pun intended). :p

On a serious note, I like having the option as a current Ascend owner to move up the ladder so to speak. Having a cost no object bookshelf at or around $5k and possibly a Tower version for $6-$7k would in my opinion gain some traction in the industry. I was at Axpona in Chicago recently and you would not believe the overpriced crazy high end stuff they sell there. People have the money for $20k speakers! Not me. Best of luck bringing this to fruition. I hope SEAS and Ascend can make it happen. It does not sound as if a whole lot of your time and money would be invested, mostly theirs:)

[Mag_Neato]

Interesting development here, but this will be WAY above my budget.

Dave, there will no doubt be a market for these. I would offer this advice:
If/when you and SEAS develop a more cost-effective, proprietary version for a "Super Sierra" do yourself and ascend a huge favor......Pay for the rights to the design so that it will not be available for general consumption and show up in copycat designs!!

Just my $0.02

[merrymaid520]

Interesting development here, but this will be WAY above my budget.

Dave, there will no doubt be a market for these. I would offer this advice:
If/when you and SEAS develop a more cost-effective, proprietary version for a "Super Sierra" do yourself and ascend a huge favor......Pay for the rights to the design so that it will not be available for general consumption and show up in copycat designs!!

Just my $0.02

Likely wishful thinking. For seas to recoup the development costs I'm almost certain ascend would not sell enough for seas to make the diamond tweeter exclusive. Just a thought.

[N Boros]

I would want the Sierra with the diamond tweeter to exceed and/or meet the performance of the Sierra 2 and the Sierra towers. More output would be something that clearly would be designed into the Sierra with the diamond tweeter, since that is one of the advantages, so it is reasonable to assume that it would be designed to be maintained throughout the frequency band. However, one area of concern for me would be wide dispersion. This is actually a drawback of dome tweeters is that they don't exhibit the same exceptionally wide dispersion that the Sierra 2 has, at the expense of narrow vertical dispersion.

This got me thinking of a recent Home Theater Geeks podcast episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4BlW39JQdA You only need to watch from 35 min to about 48 min to see the very cool waveguide, though the whole episode was quite good. They talk about a new wave guide that they call a "conic section array" to get an extremely wide horizontal dispersion out of the tweeter. Even at 80 degrees off axis the shape of the curve hasn't changed! Only the level has decreased, but it has done so uniformly for all frequencies. The design does trade off extremely wide horizontal dispersion for narrow vertical dispersion. Are there any other technologies in terms of wave guides like this that could be incorporated? I'm sure they patented this new design technology and even if Ascend paid them to use the technology, it would put the speaker way over budget. I think that if the dispersion can equal or better yet surpass that of the current Raal ribbon tweeters, then this really would be a killer cost no object speaker.

[davef]

Interesting development here, but this will be WAY above my budget.

Dave, there will no doubt be a market for these. I would offer this advice:
If/when you and SEAS develop a more cost-effective, proprietary version for a "Super Sierra" do yourself and ascend a huge favor......Pay for the rights to the design so that it will not be available for general consumption and show up in copycat designs!!

Just my $0.02

Hey Mag,

Believe me, I hear what you are saying ;) I will likely never make that same mistake again...

That said, SEAS would not be developing a lower cost version of this tweeter for us. To be clear, the only changes we would be making would be to the faceplate - in the hopes that we can get the White Diamond to mechanically fit into our current tweeter cutouts. The advantage we can offer, is that by selling direct, we can offer speakers with these tweeter at significantly less $$$ than what is currently available.

For example, if it costs $3k to build a pair of White Diamond bookshelf speakers, we can then sell this pair for ~$5500. For retail with typical margins, if it costs $3K to build a pair, they would sell it to their dealers for $6K and then the dealers would sell it for $12K. For higher priced items like these, selling direct has huge advantages...

[davef]

On a serious note, I like having the option as a current Ascend owner to move up the ladder so to speak. Having a cost no object bookshelf at or around $5k and possibly a Tower version for $6-$7k would in my opinion gain some traction in the industry. I was at Axpona in Chicago recently and you would not believe the overpriced crazy high end stuff they sell there. People have the money for $20k speakers! Not me. Best of luck bringing this to fruition. I hope SEAS and Ascend can make it happen. It does not sound as if a whole lot of your time and money would be invested, mostly theirs:)

Pretty much sums up my exact thoughts. There are a lot of speakers out there at ridiculous prices that have absurd markups... If SEAS comes through for us, it is not a large investment for us to develop upgrades and even new models. The way this tweeter measures, developing an appropriate crossover for it is relatively simple.

[Johnny_Mac_III]

Yes! Keep pushing the envelope, especially when you can sell them in the 5K range. The closer to the holy grail of being at the concert or the recording the better. Go for it!

[astr0b0y]

What's the timbre match with the RAAL speakers like, Dave?
If I was to put a pair of Sierra-2 Diamonds in my set up as LRs would they match well with my Horizon? Would I suffer endless torment and then need to buy a Diamond upgrade for the Horizon ;) ?

[Mag_Neato]

What's the timbre match with the RAAL speakers like, Dave?
If I was to put a pair of Sierra-2 Diamonds in my set up as LRs would they match well with my Horizon? Would I suffer endless torment and then need to buy a Diamond upgrade for the Horizon ;) ?

I am thinking if the Diamonds make their way into a Sierra class speaker the model name would surely be Sierra-3. Then, of course, you would need a matching Sierra Sat!

[SGCSG1]

Five grand would be my limit. Six would be a reach that I don't think I could do.

But I'd love to see a five grand Sierra take on the 'seven grand monitor' usual suspects.

[davef]

What's the timbre match with the RAAL speakers like, Dave?
If I was to put a pair of Sierra-2 Diamonds in my set up as LRs would they match well with my Horizon? Would I suffer endless torment and then need to buy a Diamond upgrade for the Horizon ;) ?

Of all the dome tweeters I have spent time with, this is the closest in timbre to the ribbons we use, which is likely why I became so enamored with it so quickly.

It is good that we are having this open discussion as I believe SEAS is also reading these posts. I am hoping that they come through and offer us this tweeter with a faceplate that fits into our standard cutout.

That said, until we have these units on hand and are able to design an upgrade to directly compare against a RAAL or even our NrT, it is all just speculation -- but fun.

Keep in mind though, while we will be able to beat retail pricing on upgrades and products, it is still going to be very expensive (at least for an Ascend product ;) )

[Blutarsky]

Expensive and a risky endeavor for Ascend. It would take a lot of capital to get the Mighty Diamond speakers going. We are all loyal but might be reluctant to buy expensive speakers in quantity.

Keep up the good work Dave. And thanks for always including us in the process.

[davef]

Expensive and a risky endeavor for Ascend. It would take a lot of capital to get the Mighty Diamond speakers going. We are all loyal but might be reluctant to buy expensive speakers in quantity.

Keep up the good work Dave. And thanks for always including us in the process.

Thanks!

The main idea behind this is that it is of little risk to us. We would not be stocking these tweeters, not even Madisound stocks them. Stocking these tweeters, even 50 of them, is crazy :eek:

SEAS keeps a small supply on hand so if we get an order for a diamond model or upgrade, we would then simply have SEAS ship us the matched pair of tweeters to fulfill the order. Lead times would likely be 3-4 weeks.

[sludgeogre]

The more I think of it, the more I am open to eventually upgrading to the Diamond tweeters after a few years with my RAAL setup, after I finally get my Sierra Sats. The only way I would consider it, though, is if vertical dispersion was vastly increased over the RAALs, and if everything else remained just as fantastic. Really the only thing I miss over the Aperion speakers I heard a couple years ago is the excellent veritcal dispersion they had, even though horizontally they were probably less wide than the Sierras, although that doesn't matter too much to me since I only deal with seating two people, max. The Sierra Towers beat the pants off of all of Aperion's products in every other way, especially extension, as the Aperion speakers sounded quite veiled by comparison.

Although, I haven't gotten my speakers in a good room yet, and I haven't done any room treatments, so this opinion may change based on how my RAAL towers and Horizon center sound in a dedicated, treated room.

[davef]

The more I think of it, the more I am open to eventually upgrading to the Diamond tweeters after a few years with my RAAL setup, after I finally get my Sierra Sats. The only way I would consider it, though, is if vertical dispersion was vastly increased over the RAALs, and if everything else remained just as fantastic. Really the only thing I miss over the Aperion speakers I heard a couple years ago is the excellent veritcal dispersion they had, even though horizontally they were probably less wide than the Sierras, although that doesn't matter too much to me since I only deal with seating two people, max. The Sierra Towers beat the pants off of all of Aperion's products in every other way, especially extension, as the Aperion speakers sounded quite veiled by comparison.

Although, I haven't gotten my speakers in a good room yet, and I haven't done any room treatments, so this opinion may change based on how my RAAL towers and Horizon center sound in a dedicated, treated room.

Keep in mind that limited vertical directivity, especially in a tower speaker, has very significant sonic benefits by reducing both floor and ceiling reflections... The design of our towers, even the dome versions, have limited vertical directivity. It is one of the main reasons for the somewhat unusual design of placing the midrange driver above the tweeter. That and providing a more defined acoustic center for a 3-way.

When it comes down to comparing the vertical directivity of a 29mm dome versus the ribbon in the tower, we are really only talking about an increase of ~ +/- 5 degs, which isn't much... At 10 feet back, the vertical listening window expands by only ~ +/- 10 inches.

I see the major benefits of the diamond tweeter being the delicacy and transparency of our ribbon sound, combined with that more forward in-your-face type sound and edge that dome tweeter fans love. The dispersion of this tweeter is already exceptionally good, but until I am able to take polar measurements of a completed design - I can't really get too deep into any dispersion advantages (if any)...

[sludgeogre]

Keep in mind that limited vertical directivity, especially in a tower speaker, has very significant sonic benefits by reducing both floor and ceiling reflections... The design of our towers, even the dome versions, have limited vertical directivity. It is one of the main reasons for the somewhat unusual design of placing the midrange driver above the tweeter. That and providing a more defined acoustic center for a 3-way.

When it comes down to comparing the vertical directivity of a 29mm dome versus the ribbon in the tower, we are really only talking about an increase of ~ +/- 5 degs, which isn't much... At 10 feet back, the vertical listening window expands by only ~ +/- 10 inches.

I see the major benefits of the diamond tweeter being the delicacy and transparency of our ribbon sound, combined with that more forward in-your-face type sound and edge that dome tweeter fans love. The dispersion of this tweeter is already exceptionally good, but until I am able to take polar measurements of a completed design - I can't really get too deep into any dispersion advantages (if any)...

This is fantastic information, Dave, thank you! I had been wondering why the Sierra was so different from many other towers with the midrange above the tweeter, and now I have my answer.

In terms of directivity, I heard the Aperion Verus Grands in their office, which was well treated and in a rectangular room. The room I have my Sierra Towers in now is a giant, open, atrocious vaulted ceiling room with no treatments, so I'm sure that has some kind of impact on what I'm hearing with regards to dispersion, as well as just being excited to be hearing Aperion's gear after I had followed them for a while. I did not know the measured difference in directivity was so insignificant.

I've always found if slightly confusing that dome tweeter lovers extol the benefits of "in-your-face" sound of dome tweeters. I'm a technical death metal fan, and most people would describe that music as "in-your-face", but I have always preferred the sound of a more transparent and smooth sound. My Audeze LCD-2 headphones serve that up in spades and I am a huge fan of it, and the Sierra Towers do the same thing, but don't have the uneven treble response that the LCD-2 can sometimes portray. I can listen to my RAAL towers for hours without realizing how much time has passed, they're just so beautiful.

Welp, now I'm back to my initial thoughts that the Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters are my end game, hooray! I was just so entranced by the initial thoughts of how this tweeter might sound. Now I can focus my upgrade money on buying as many pairs of Sierra Sats as I can get my hands on :)

[theophile]

Got to hear my first Diamond Domes today! Went to a nice setup in a 12x16x8ft treated audio salon room, high quality electronics pushing B&W 805 D3 2-way monitors. Music selections (12 CD's from my collections) consisted of solo vocalist, instrumentals, small group jazz ensembles, cathedral choirs w\pipe organ, acoustic guitars, jazz piano, orchestral sting ensembles and some musical test tracts from labels of ABS and Chesky Records.

In the first hour of listening (1 of 4), I couldn't decide if I liked the veiled midrange presence of the mid\woofer. The presentation was somewhat warm, but detailed. However for the B&W overall sound, the midrange was pleasant and upper bass responses tight and had good definition, but something there in a seamless timbre integration between the transducers (diamond and Mid\woofer) had me wondering if the x-over needed tweaking. This off integration seemed to also affect the sound stage, as it was tight and focused between the speakers (8ft apart), but no SS to the outside like my Sierra 1's. Depth was also pretty flat, with little presence beyond the listening wall versus the S1 that with the right recording, can show the full depth of the recording venue!

Eventually, I started to appreciate the extra detail, natural timbre and ease of presentation in the diamond tweeter as I was hearing nuances that weren't as perceivable in my S1 NrT's. I imagine this B&W diamond has similar clarity to the RAAL ribbon in its presence and effortless sonic character. It truly is intoxicating as I finally enjoyed the long listening session.

Dave, I'm sure the SEAS Diamond + Ascend know how will facilitate a "seamless audio integration" that could easily surpass what B&W is offering in a bookshelf high end monitor!!! Bringing it in well under that MSRP as a creative stunning performance virtuoso monitor will just be icing on the cake!!! :cool:

Ted

[RPM]

Dave, for the "Diamond Edition" Towers would you anticipate similar
Sensitivity & power handling capabilities as NRT / RAAL or possibly Higher output?
Thanks, Dave

[davef]

Got to hear my first Diamond Domes today! Went to a nice setup in a 12x16x8ft treated audio salon room, high quality electronics pushing B&W 805 D3 2-way monitors. Music selections (12 CD's from my collections) consisted of solo vocalist, instrumentals, small group jazz ensembles, cathedral choirs w\pipe organ, acoustic guitars, jazz piano, orchestral sting ensembles and some musical test tracts from labels of ABS and Chesky Records.

In the first hour of listening (1 of 4), I couldn't decide if I liked the veiled midrange presence of the mid\woofer. The presentation was somewhat warm, but detailed. However for the B&W overall sound, the midrange was pleasant and upper bass responses tight and had good definition, but something there in a seamless timbre integration between the transducers (diamond and Mid\woofer) had me wondering if the x-over needed tweaking. This off integration seemed to also affect the sound stage, as it was tight and focused between the speakers (8ft apart), but no SC to the outside like my Sierra 1's. Depth was also pretty flat, with little presence beyond the listening wall versus the S1 that with the right recording, can show the full depth of the recording venue!

Eventually, I started to appreciate the extra detail, natural timbre and ease of presentation in the diamond tweeter as I was hearing nuances that weren't as perceivable in my S1 NrT's. I imagine this B&W diamond has similar clarity to the RAAL ribbon in its presence and effortless sonic character. It truly is intoxicating as I finally enjoyed the long listening session.

Dave, I'm sure the SEAS Diamond + Ascend know how will facilitate a "seamless audio integration" that could easily surpass what B&W is offering in a bookshelf high end monitor!!! Bringing it in well under that MSRP as a creative stunning performance virtuoso monitor will just be icing on the cake!!! :cool:

Ted

Hi Ted,

I feel it very important to stress that like with any tweeter, including diamond dome tweeters, even amongst these there are very significant differences.

I have enough experience in the field to confidently state that the SEAS white diamond sounds as good as it does due to a combination of the vapor deposited diamond dome (there are different ways of creating a diamond dome and this is by far the best method) in combination with SEAS's patented Hexadym magnet system, which is unique in that there are no magnets directly behind the dome. This has measurable advantages.

In addition, Claus stated to me that he feels some of the performance is also due to the optimized shaping of the damping chambers behind the dome.

I really think you should give one of our ribbon speakers a try, just for kicks :)

[davef]

Dave, for the "Diamond Edition" Towers would you anticipate similar
Sensitivity & power handling capabilities as NRT / RAAL or possibly Higher output?
Thanks, Dave

This depends, if we make entirely new models - this would depend on the components of the new model. If it is an upgrade, the sensitivity of the white diamond tweeter is nearly identical to that of our NrT dome and the tweeter is not the limiting aspect of power handling, so if upgrading - sensitivity and power handling would be the same...

[theophile]

I really think you should give one of our ribbon speakers a try, just for kicks :)

I will Dave...planning to have my order in for Sierra 2's in Piano Black by the end of June!!! :D

I've no doubt that the S2's with the RAAL's will be equal or better than what I experienced with the B&W 800-D3 series diamonds and as you read, I really loved that effortless top end extension! The NrT's are great, but finding when pushed, they can become too forward in presentation, giving a hint of fatigue over extended heavy playback sessions. In my small listening space, if I let them, they take over the room real quick! Otherwise, the NrT's are still the best soft domes out there!

One day once it comes full circle, I'd like to experience the Ascend Diamond Series ...I'm sure that will be an ultimate Mind Blower! :cool:

Ted

[theophile]

Dave,

Any new development with THESE (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?6276-Upgrading-past-Ascend-s-flagship-speakers&p=54280#post54280)?

Ted

[Johnny_Mac_III]

What are the dispersion characteristics of the diamond tweeter? Thanks.

[davef]

Dave,

Any new development with THESE (http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?6276-Upgrading-past-Ascend-s-flagship-speakers&p=54280#post54280)?

Ted

Hi Ted,

Sorry - this is low priority for us right now, with all of our efforts focused on the forthcoming Sat's. I will likely dive deep into this towards the end of the summer.

[davef]

What are the dispersion characteristics of the diamond tweeter? Thanks.

Basically the same as any other SEAS 1" dome tweeter. Dispersion characteristics are unaffected by material. For dome tweeters, the critical factors are the diameter of the dome, dome shape, and faceplate.

[Johnny_Mac_III]

Gotcha! This tweeter sounds like a game changer.

[Beave]

Tonight in a bookstore I saw that the latest edition of Stereophile features a review of a Crystal Cable bookshelf speaker that features the SEAS diamond tweeter (or some variation of it). The speaker also appears to use a Scan Speak Illuminator 6" woofer. Cost per pair of speakers is $20k. :eek:

Review will be on Stereophile's website soon.

[mikesiskav]

Tonight in a bookstore I saw that the latest edition of Stereophile features a review of a Crystal Cable bookshelf speaker that features the SEAS diamond tweeter (or some variation of it). The speaker also appears to use a Scan Speak Illuminator 6" woofer. Cost per pair of speakers is $20k. :eek:

Review will be on Stereophile's website soon.

Thanks for the heads up. Crystal Cable has the review on their website. I'd have to say that for $20K, the Stereophile review didn't seem to enthusiastic about the speaker. Seems like the overall balance of the speaker is a little off. The measured sensitivity is also pretty low at 81dB.

[Beave]

Yeah, the measurements could be - and should be - a lot better. The low sensitivity is somewhat ameloriated by the high impedance of the speakers, but that frequency response on-axis needs some work. Looks like the crossover isn't optimal; or maybe the two drivers chosen just don't work together optimally.

But, hey, they have a unique look; they use extravagant drivers, pricey crossover components, and silver internal wiring; and they cost a fortune. So that's a CLASS A component in the minds of Stereophile.

[curtis]

But, hey, they have a unique look; they use extravagant drivers, pricey crossover components, and silver internal wiring; and they cost a fortune. So that's a CLASS A component in the minds of Stereophile.
and an interesting name "Arabesque Minissimo Diamond"....

$20k? It's a head scratcher...

[davef]

and an interesting name "Arabesque Minissimo Diamond"....

$20k? It's a head scratcher...

I am not at all surprised by the $20K price tag. These SEAS white diamond tweeters are the most expensive tweeters I have ever come across, but they are also the best sounding dome tweeters I have ever evaluated. I've been looking at some numbers and I don't think we could offer a pair of speakers with these tweeters and top notch woofers for anything less than $6K/pair. With that in mind, I am still going to design a set -- and soon :)

[theriddler07sms]

I am not at all surprised by the $20K price tag. These SEAS white diamond tweeters are the most expensive tweeters I have ever come across, but they are also the best sounding dome tweeters I have ever evaluated. I've been looking at some numbers and I don't think we could offer a pair of speakers with these tweeters and top notch woofers for anything less than $6K/pair. With that in mind, I am still going to design a set -- and soon :)

Is that 6k for a pair of towers?

[mikesiskav]

I am not at all surprised by the $20K price tag. These SEAS white diamond tweeters are the most expensive tweeters I have ever come across, but they are also the best sounding dome tweeters I have ever evaluated. I've been looking at some numbers and I don't think we could offer a pair of speakers with these tweeters and top notch woofers for anything less than $6K/pair. With that in mind, I am still going to design a set -- and soon :)

You can count on me and Curtis being over there for a demo as soon as you've got something. ;)

[curtis]

I am not at all surprised by the $20K price tag. These SEAS white diamond tweeters are the most expensive tweeters I have ever come across, but they are also the best sounding dome tweeters I have ever evaluated. I've been looking at some numbers and I don't think we could offer a pair of speakers with these tweeters and top notch woofers for anything less than $6K/pair. With that in mind, I am still going to design a set -- and soon :)
and I'm sure yours will measure better!

[davef]

Is that 6k for a pair of towers?

Oh no - that would be for a 2-way pair of bookshelf speakers. The tweeters themselves are currently retailing for $6832 per pair. Of course, we would pay less than retail price, but even at 50% off-- well, you get the idea. This would never be a product we would stock. It would be a purely niche product and built to order with an estimated 6 week lead time. Frankly, we could not afford to stock the tweeters and if we did, we would need a vault to keep them in, lol.

[davef]

You can count on me and Curtis being over there for a demo as soon as you've got something. ;)

Absolutely!


and I'm sure yours will measure better!

That's a given..... ;)

[N Boros]

Absolutely!



That's a given..... ;)

I followed the previous link of this $20,000 bookshelf speaker and found some NRC measurements. Those measuring the speaker said they they chose to measure the distortion at 85 dB as opposed to the usual 90 dB so that they don't run too much current through the drivers and damage them because of the low sensitivity. I'm really confused. Even though the speaker has low sensitivity you said that the tweeter is supposed to be able to get very loud, meaning that it can handle a low of current without damage. With this implementation of the tweeter did the speaker designer not do a good job of pairing a woofer that can keep up with the tweeter?

This sounds crazy to me that someone would spend a $20,000 on a speaker that they cannot safely drive much past 85 dB.

[RPM]

85db ? That's my turned down level on my Towers to try to hear what the Wife is saying....:D

[Beave]

I followed the previous link of this $20,000 bookshelf speaker and found some NRC measurements. Those measuring the speaker said they they chose to measure the distortion at 85 dB as opposed to the usual 90 dB so that they don't run too much current through the drivers and damage them because of the low sensitivity. I'm really confused. Even though the speaker has low sensitivity you said that the tweeter is supposed to be able to get very loud, meaning that it can handle a low of current without damage. With this implementation of the tweeter did the speaker designer not do a good job of pairing a woofer that can keep up with the tweeter?

This sounds crazy to me that someone would spend a $20,000 on a speaker that they cannot safely drive much past 85 dB.

I saw that too. I think they're wrong. Those drivers can take a lot of voltage and can play pretty loud without distortion or damage. I think the testing facility was unnecessarily cautious - maybe because they knew the price of the speakers and were afraid to damage them.

[merrymaid520]

Oh no - that would be for a 2-way pair of bookshelf speakers. The tweeters themselves are currently retailing for $6832 per pair. Of course, we would pay less than retail price, but even at 50% off-- well, you get the idea. This would never be a product we would stock. It would be a purely niche product and built to order with an estimated 6 week lead time. Frankly, we could not afford to stock the tweeters and if we did, we would need a vault to keep them in, lol.

I'm thinking they'll make a decent surround speaker;)

[mikesiskav]

I'm thinking they'll make a decent surround speaker;)

It'll go good with the diamond towers up front. :-)

[theophile]

My bride of 40+ yrs. has enough diamonds...maybe time to buy myself some!!! :cool:

Ted

[davef]

I followed the previous link of this $20,000 bookshelf speaker and found some NRC measurements. Those measuring the speaker said they they chose to measure the distortion at 85 dB as opposed to the usual 90 dB so that they don't run too much current through the drivers and damage them because of the low sensitivity. I'm really confused. Even though the speaker has low sensitivity you said that the tweeter is supposed to be able to get very loud, meaning that it can handle a low of current without damage. With this implementation of the tweeter did the speaker designer not do a good job of pairing a woofer that can keep up with the tweeter?

This sounds crazy to me that someone would spend a $20,000 on a speaker that they cannot safely drive much past 85 dB.


85db ? That's my turned down level on my Towers to try to hear what the Wife is saying....:D


I saw that too. I think they're wrong. Those drivers can take a lot of voltage and can play pretty loud without distortion or damage. I think the testing facility was unnecessarily cautious - maybe because they knew the price of the speakers and were afraid to damage them.

Guys - you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. First off, these are measurements taken at 2 meters in a true anechoic chamber. Not only is there zero room gain, but the mic will only pick up the direct sound. Nearly all off-axis radiation will be absorbed by the wedges and as such, to reach 90dB with an 81dB sensitivity speaker will require quite a bit of power (~50 watts) Now, most will say 50 watts is not that much power, but the problem is that these distortion measurements are performed using sine wave sweeps. Sine waves are not representative of music or any typical source material that would be fed to the speaker -- and throwing a 50 watt sine wave at a speaker is crazy, this is a sure fire to way damage a woofer or a tweeter. 85dB would require 10 watt sine waves and that is generally the safe zone limit for a tweeter.

Hitting a $3K tweeter with a 50 watt sine wave sweep makes even me cringe at thought... Imagine seeing smoke from the voice coil or the dome itself shattering...:eek:

[Beave]

They have tested other speakers at much higher voltage levels (and much higher subsequent power levels, as those other speakers also have lower impedances) - and no damage resulted.

85dB for the Crystal Cable speaker required 8.74V input levels. The speaker's impedance is over 8 Ohms in general. So, as you stated, power would be 10 watts or so.

Now look at the tests for the PSB Synchrony Two B (another small bookshelf speaker with fairly low sensitivity of 84dB). They ran THD sweeps at 90dB@2m with a voltage input of 10.9V, and that's a speaker with a lower impedance than the Crystal Cable speaker. So even more power. Then they even went a step further and measured THD at 95dB@2m, with a voltage input of 19.5V. With this speaker being around a 4 Ohm load, that's way more power than what they did with the Crystal Cable speaker.

So why were they willing to play the PSB speaker at such high power input to it, but not willing to go nearly as high with the Crystal Cable speaker?

[sludgeogre]

They have tested other speakers at much higher voltage levels (and much higher subsequent power levels, as those other speakers also have lower impedances) - and no damage resulted.

85dB for the Crystal Cable speaker required 8.74V input levels. The speaker's impedance is over 8 Ohms in general. So, as you stated, power would be 10 watts or so.

Now look at the tests for the PSB Synchrony Two B (another small bookshelf speaker with fairly low sensitivity of 84dB). They ran THD sweeps at 90dB@2m with a voltage input of 10.9V, and that's a speaker with a lower impedance than the Crystal Cable speaker. So even more power. Then they even went a step further and measured THD at 95dB@2m, with a voltage input of 19.5V. With this speaker being around a 4 Ohm load, that's way more power than what they did with the Crystal Cable speaker.

So why were they willing to play the PSB speaker at such high power input to it, but not willing to go nearly as high with the Crystal Cable speaker?

Probably because PSB speakers are also very well designed and Paul Barton has his own anechoic chamber and insane amounts of testing equipment, so I'm sure he just told them to throw whatever the hell they wanted at it. With the Crystal Cable speaker it's a much smaller company and I doubt they have the resources to be able to just throw power at their costly products until they explode.

Just a thought.

[mikesiskav]

Keep in mind 84dB to 81dB sensitivity is a pretty big difference. The 81dB speaker requires double the power to reach the same volume as the 84dB speaker.

[Beave]

Probably because PSB speakers are also very well designed and Paul Barton has his own anechoic chamber and insane amounts of testing equipment, so I'm sure he just told them to throw whatever the hell they wanted at it. With the Crystal Cable speaker it's a much smaller company and I doubt they have the resources to be able to just throw power at their costly products until they explode.

Just a thought.

Doesn't PSB use the NRC, the same place where these tests are run? I suppose you could consider that in itself to be 'insane amounts of testing equipment.' But keep in mind that the tweeter used in the PSBs costs about $25 each at retail, and quite a bit less when bought in bulk, as PSB does.

Also, whether or not Crystal Cable is a small company is mostly negated by the fact they're not designing their own drivers. They're using a ScanSpeak woofer and a SEAS tweeter.

[davef]

They have tested other speakers at much higher voltage levels (and much higher subsequent power levels, as those other speakers also have lower impedances) - and no damage resulted.

85dB for the Crystal Cable speaker required 8.74V input levels. The speaker's impedance is over 8 Ohms in general. So, as you stated, power would be 10 watts or so.

Now look at the tests for the PSB Synchrony Two B (another small bookshelf speaker with fairly low sensitivity of 84dB). They ran THD sweeps at 90dB@2m with a voltage input of 10.9V, and that's a speaker with a lower impedance than the Crystal Cable speaker. So even more power. Then they even went a step further and measured THD at 95dB@2m, with a voltage input of 19.5V. With this speaker being around a 4 Ohm load, that's way more power than what they did with the Crystal Cable speaker.

So why were they willing to play the PSB speaker at such high power input to it, but not willing to go nearly as high with the Crystal Cable speaker?

It is one thing to destroy what is likely a $25 tweeter (cost) compared to a $2K+ tweeter (cost). Additionally, as I mentioned they are hitting the speaker with sine wave sweeps - which in itself can be very damaging to speaker components.

I suggest if you are still curious, send Doug Schneider an email and inquire.



Probably because PSB speakers are also very well designed and Paul Barton has his own anechoic chamber and insane amounts of testing equipment, so I'm sure he just told them to throw whatever the hell they wanted at it. With the Crystal Cable speaker it's a much smaller company and I doubt they have the resources to be able to just throw power at their costly products until they explode.

Just a thought.

Again, there is a huge difference in price between the Diamond tweeter and the tweeter in the PSB.

Put it this way, if I were sending up a pair of speakers with the SEAS White Diamond tweeters and any damage due to testing was purely our responsibility - I too would absolutely instruct them to avoid higher power distortion tests. Better safe than sorry....

[Beave]

Keep in mind 84dB to 81dB sensitivity is a pretty big difference. The 81dB speaker requires double the power to reach the same volume as the 84dB speaker.

Only if they had the same impedance, which they don't. The Crystal Cable speaker's impedance is significantly higher (roughly double, or a little more). It needs more voltage to play loud, but less current.

If one speaker has a 3dB higher voltage sensitivity but twice the impedance of another speaker, isn't the power needed to play at a given level the same for both speakers?

[Beave]

It is one thing to destroy what is likely a $25 tweeter (cost) compared to a $2K+ tweeter (cost). Additionally, as I mentioned they are hitting the speaker with sine wave sweeps - which in itself can be very damaging to speaker components.

I suggest if you are still curious, send Doug Schneider an email and inquire.




Again, there is a huge difference in price between the Diamond tweeter and the tweeter in the PSB.

Put it this way, if I were sending up a pair of speakers with the SEAS White Diamond tweeters and any damage due to testing was purely our responsibility - I too would absolutely instruct them to avoid higher power distortion tests. Better safe than sorry....

If you go back and look, I was the one who suggested they were cautious with the Crystal Cable speaker because of the price of the tweeter. So you're agreeing with me. :)

But it does make me wonder why a $25 tweeter can handle the power, but everybody gets nervous playing a $2k-$6k tweeter at similar levels. Just goes to show that not all parameters improve when price goes up.

[Beave]

It is one thing to destroy what is likely a $25 tweeter (cost) compared to a $2K+ tweeter (cost). Additionally, as I mentioned they are hitting the speaker with sine wave sweeps - which in itself can be very damaging to speaker components.

Do you know how quickly they run the sweep? And how many discrete points they actually use? I can't find that info online.

When we ran sweeps where I used to work, the entire sweep only took a few seconds. The power handling of a speaker depends (as you well know) not only on the levels but also on the time. A tweeter, for example, might handle a high-power sweep just fine if it's only a couple of seconds, but a lower-power sweep that's really slow might cook the voice coil. {I know you know this, I'm just pointing it out for others.}

[Beave]

Here is another low sensitivity speaker that they ran at higher levels than they did with the Crystal Cable speaker:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1100:nrc-measurements-joseph-audio-pulsar-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

82dB sensitivity, an expensive SEAS Millenium tweeter (though nowhere near as expensive as the diamond tweeter), and a fairly high impedance. They ran its THD test at 90dB.

[davef]

Here is another low sensitivity speaker that they ran at higher levels than they did with the Crystal Cable speaker:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1100:nrc-measurements-joseph-audio-pulsar-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

82dB sensitivity, an expensive SEAS Millenium tweeter (though nowhere near as expensive as the diamond tweeter), and a fairly high impedance. They ran its THD test at 90dB.

Beave,

You are really jumping to the wrong conclusions here. The SEAS white diamond is actually SEAS's highest power handling tweeter at this time. Replacing the domes on the SEAS millennium tweeter is inexpensive and quite simple (if it were to be damaged). With most tweeters, the expense is in the magnet system, but with the diamond, the majority of expense is in the dome itself.

Klaus (from SEAS) and I tested the white diamond tweeter here with a full range signal - no crossover whatsoever (yes, a big no-no with tweeters). I was hesitant due to risk of damaging the tweeter but Klaus assured me it was OK and, well, since he recommended it - I wasn't too concerned about damage since these were his demo units. We compared this against nearly every other tweeter we had here at my facility - and the complete lack of compression and distortion, combined with the extremely ribbon-like open and airy sound was very surprising. This tweeter is IEC rated at 300watts peak power handling.

Another important point is that you are referencing the NRC measurements of the Arabesque Minissimo but I am not so sure that this is actually the Diamond version of the speaker. Actually, after checking - it is not the diamond version. Here is the associated review that links to the measurements. http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/859-crystal-cable-arabesque-minissimo-loudspeakers

The tweeter in the review unit is actually the Scan Revelator - a good tweeter but IEC rated at about 1/2 the power of the white diamond.

[Beave]

Ah, so there are two versions of the Abaresque Minissimo, a standard one and a Diamond version. I didn't catch that. And the NRC measurements are for the standard (non-diamond) one. Stereophile's measurements are for the Diamond version, but Stereophile doesn't test THD.

I'm not sure what "wrong conclusions" I jumped to, but it appears it's all for naught anyway. The part where I was wrong was assuming it was the diamond tweeter version being tested by the NRC.

Too bad we don't have NRC measurements for the diamond version.

And it's good to know that the diamond version (of the Minissimo) likely has higher power handling than the standard version (of the Minissimo).

[mikesiskav]

Only if they had the same impedance, which they don't. The Crystal Cable speaker's impedance is significantly higher (roughly double, or a little more). It needs more voltage to play loud, but less current.

If one speaker has a 3dB higher voltage sensitivity but twice the impedance of another speaker, isn't the power needed to play at a given level the same for both speakers?

Well the standard definition of speaker sensitivity is output vs wattage, not output vs voltage

Assuming input voltage = 2.83
Voltage ^ 2 / impedance = power

For an 8 ohm speaker:
2.83 ^ 2 / 8 = 1 watt

For a 4 ohm speaker
2.83 ^2 / 4 = 2 watts

If both speakers output 84dB with 2.83v, then the 8 ohm speaker is 84dB per watt. The 4 ohm speaker is 84dB per 2 watts (or 81dB per watt).

[Beave]

Well the standard definition of speaker sensitivity is output vs wattage, not output vs voltage

Assuming input voltage = 2.83
Voltage ^ 2 / impedance = power

For an 8 ohm speaker:
2.83 ^ 2 / 8 = 1 watt

For a 4 ohm speaker
2.83 ^2 / 4 = 2 watts

If both speakers output 84dB with 2.83v, then the 8 ohm speaker is 84dB per watt. The 4 ohm speaker is 84dB per 2 watts (or 81dB per watt).

No, it's not the standard definition of speaker sensitivity to give it as dB per watt. It's a definition sometimes used by manufacturers, but it is a confusing method of giving a spec. John Atkinson explains why in Stereophile:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/measuring-loudspeakers-part-one-page-3#d3vyzmuo7w5s52VM.97

There's a reason that both NRC measurements and Stereophile measurements give sensitivity for 2.83V input levels. They then go on to give plots for impedance.

If you were to play a constant wattage sweep on a speaker, the output level would vary considerably because the current AND the voltage would be going up and down as the speaker impedance varies. The result wouldn't look like a frequency response measurement you're used to seeing. Speaker impedance varies considerably with frequency and is reactive in addition to being resistive.

The rest of your post is correct, but it's not consistent with your previous post, in which we had speaker A with sensitivity of 81dB with 2.83V input, and an impedance of (simplified for this discussion) 8 Ohms. Speaker B has a sensitivity of 84dB with 2.83V input, and an impedance of 4 Ohms.

[Beave]

It's also worth pointing out that giving sensitivity in terms of 2.83V makes sense because amplifiers, in their comfortable operating range, act as voltage sources. Models of amplifier-speaker systems use voltage sources for the amplifier. You turn up the volume, you are increasing the voltage output (of course the current and power output increase as well, but since the load impedance isn't a simple 4 Ohms or 8 Ohms, the resulting current and power aren't so simple to calculate in the real world).

[mikesiskav]

Very interesting. I see it is a more complex issue than I thought. Very confusing if some companies rate 1w/1m and others use 2.83v/1m. I guess it's just another marketing tactic to make theirs speakers look better. Apparently, there can also be differences in frequencies measured. Are they measuring full bandwidth, limited bandwidth, single frequency? Here's another article which discusses the issues:

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-sensitivity/hypothetical-discussion-on-loudspeaker-sensitivity-engineering-vs-marketing

[Beave]

Right, it gets complicated. Good link.

Yes, some manufacturers like to list it 1w/1m, probably to make their numbers look a little better.

But some manufacturers stretch their numbers even more than that. I've seen sensitivity given in room, not anechoic (room gain will make that number higher than anechoic). I've seen sensitivity given in room, with both speakers playing (definitely no longer an apples-to-apples comparison).

And a real kicker: Sensitivity is generally agreed to be an average of the output level across a frequency range comprising the midrange, ie, an average of the frequency response from something like 300Hz to 3kHz. But I've seen manufacturers cherry-pick a single point where their speaker has a peak and say that that is their sensitivity. Speaker manufacturers play games with sensitivity just like amp/receiver manufacturers play games with their power ratings, maybe worse sometimes.

Dave does it right. He gives sensitivity for 2.83V, and he gives us impedance plots. He also gives an estimated in-room sensitivity. No cheating, no cherry-picking, no exaggerating.

[sludgeogre]

All I know is I wish I could afford a couple sets of Sierra Lunas (hopefully that's the name) with that incredible diamond tweeter as an upgrade. I haven't been using headphones as much and these would be the absolute ultimate desktop speaker if paired with a little sub at a desk.

Anyway, these things really are incredible, and yes they're very different beasts compared to the PSB tweeters or many others. It's easy to throw tons of power at a $25 tweeter, but I think everyone here would cringe if one felt even the slightest bit wary of putting dangerous amounts of power on a $5,000 tweeter. This is speaker design only for the pros. You need to know exactly what you're doing as you can't risk making a mistake during testing.

It reminds me of blowing a bunch of speakers I got at goodwill in college trying to make corn starch monsters videos for a physics project. I made mp3's of different frequencies with a tone generator and used my roommates crappy receiver to power the speakers. I blew 4 pairs or so before I got a decent video. I think I was throwing all kinds of crap at those speakers that I shouldn't have been, wondering what was going wrong. I'm not to be trusted with such matters!

[Beave]

The Stereophile review of the Diamond version of the Crystal Cable speaker is now up on their website:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/crystal-cable-arabesque-minissimo-diamond-loudspeaker#BbusZswXDGdRSrSI.97

[mikesiskav]

Doesn't look like they did any THD measurements.

[davef]

The Stereophile review of the Diamond version of the Crystal Cable speaker is now up on their website:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/crystal-cable-arabesque-minissimo-diamond-loudspeaker#BbusZswXDGdRSrSI.97

Measurements look odd to me - a bit colored.


Doesn't look like they did any THD measurements.

Taking distortion measurements with MLSSA (Stereophile uses MLSSA, as do we) is quite time consuming. Sometimes it is more useful to use less sophisticated measurement gear (LMS or CLIO for example) for distortion sweeps. The advantages of MLSSA are very sophisticated time domain measurements, which is key to the performance of all of our products.

[FirstReflect]

So one of the things I've suggested in the past is for Ascend Acoustics to pursue what appear to be the two fastest growing market segments in speakers: compact wall-mountable speakers, and extremely high output speakers. They're basically the two opposite ends of the spectrum, but that seems to be the way things are trending, and it's also the two ends that Ascend doesn't already fully cover.

Now, the compact wall-mountable segment is being taken care of! The HTM-200SE already handles that task for the SE Series. And the new Sierra Luna will handle it for the Sierra Series; especially since all three tweeter options should be available with the Sierra Luna, making it a perfect match no matter which Sierra Series speakers one might already own.

But that leaves the super high output category. In the very first post of this thread, Dave mentioned that this diamond tweeter has nearly limitless power handling and dynamics capabilities. To me, that says it all right there.

Don't get me wrong, I super appreciate Dave's efforts to make new components available for existing cabinets and customers. The Sierra-2 could have easily been a completely new model. But instead, Dave found a way to allow Sierra-1 and Sierra-1 NrT owners to upgrade to the new Sierra-2 components. And it sounds as though Dave has a similar idea in mind with this new diamond tweeter.

And maybe that's ok. Maybe there's nothing wrong with offering the new diamond tweeter with a new crossover as yet another Sierra Series variant for customers to consider. But I have to say that my initial reaction and thought on this is that the "Ascend Diamond Series" really should be a completely new Series of speakers.

My instant thought is that an "Ascend Diamond Series" should have Ascend's highest output capabilities ever. A new Tower that can compete with the JTRs and JBL Everests of the world. Maybe not the super high efficiency of those designs. But so long as a customer has the amplifier power on hand, maybe similar sorts of sheer output capabilities.

A new bookshelf that can play just as loud or louder than the Sierra Tower RAAL. A new mega-Center that can fill a genuine cinema-sized room.

If this diamond tweeter has the capability (and it sounds as though it does), then my thought is to match it with new woofers and new cabinets that will allow it to play to its maximum capabilities. While offering it as yet another upgrade option to the Sierra Series might also be very cool, it seems as though the diamond tweeter would essentially need to be tamped down and held back.

So I'd like to see an entirely new Series from Ascend with this diamond tweeter fully unleashed! Ascend's $2700/pair speakers already compete with $15,000/pair models from other brands. Perhaps a new "Ascend Diamond Series" could be something like $8,000/pair speakers that compete with the $60,000+ options that are out there ;)

[FirstReflect]

I should also mention...

For quite a while now, I've been anxious to see more speaker manufacturers start to use self-powered designs with active crossovers. Yes, much like professional studio monitors, you would have to plug each speaker into an electrical wall outlet. But the benefits of each individual driver having its own, dedicated, tuned amplifier all to itself; plus, an active crossover with tremendously tuneable and accurate filters; it all just seems to attractive to not be considered!

So this new "Ascend Diamond Series" that I'm proposing - if it's going to have extremely high output capabilities like I think it should - one obvious way to help achieve that would be to have the amplification built right into the speaker!

[Mag_Neato]

I should also mention...

For quite a while now, I've been anxious to see more speaker manufacturers start to use self-powered designs with active crossovers. Yes, much like professional studio monitors, you would have to plug each speaker into an electrical wall outlet. But the benefits of each individual driver having its own, dedicated, tuned amplifier all to itself; plus, an active crossover with tremendously tuneable and accurate filters; it all just seems to attractive to not be considered!

So this new "Ascend Diamond Series" that I'm proposing - if it's going to have extremely high output capabilities like I think it should - one obvious way to help achieve that would be to have the amplification built right into the speaker!

Self-powered with Diamond tweeters? $10K bookshelves, here we come!

[davef]

I should also mention...

For quite a while now, I've been anxious to see more speaker manufacturers start to use self-powered designs with active crossovers. Yes, much like professional studio monitors, you would have to plug each speaker into an electrical wall outlet. But the benefits of each individual driver having its own, dedicated, tuned amplifier all to itself; plus, an active crossover with tremendously tuneable and accurate filters; it all just seems to attractive to not be considered!

So this new "Ascend Diamond Series" that I'm proposing - if it's going to have extremely high output capabilities like I think it should - one obvious way to help achieve that would be to have the amplification built right into the speaker!

There are both advantages and disadvantages to active speakers. While it seems that active filters have an advantage over passive filters - in reality it isn't so simple. Active filters require using op amps (unless going all DSP and that presents additional problems) - and like everything else in electronics, some are good and some are terrible for audio usage. The good ones can be quite expensive (OPA 134's typically run $4 each) and depending on the complexity of the filters, many would need to be used - with each one adding small amounts of noise & distortion. There is actually less manipulation of the original source with a passive filter network, but active gives the advantage of more precise slopes and contouring, no phase shift if done right and less losses. Is this an advantage? Does it actually sound better? It depends on many factors - there is no clear cut advantage.

There can also be serious issues with RFI, a potential issue that does not exist with passive speakers.

With a fully active speaker, it obviously requires the amp to be built into the speaker. Most active speakers these days use class D amplification due to the smaller footprint and higher efficiency - but the more revealing the speaker, the less I recommend class D amplifiers as switching noise becomes problematic. It is unlikely to see a true class A or class A/B amp in an active speaker due to the amount of heat sinking required. The amplifier is typically where costs are cut the most and you just won't find the quality amplification that you can find in a good power amp compared to what is used in an active speaker. For a pair of 2-way speakers, one would need 4 channels of amplification. For a pair of 3-way speakers, 6 channels of amplification.

You then also need ETL/UL certification and I can tell you first hand that getting this certification is very costly and offers nothing other than a safety assurance to the consumer. Different countries require different certifications - it is a logistics nightmare.

There is a reason active hi-fi speakers have not become more mainstream - and in my experience, I have to agree. It is not something we would likely pursue here but I can definitely see the appeal for certain market segments.

The SEAS white diamond tweeter is a 26mm dome tweeter. It is rated at 300 watts peak power handling when crossed with a 2nd order filter at 2500Hz (we would cross lower than this). It is also 89dB efficiency... This should never be considered an extremely high output tweeter. The 70-20 RAAL we use in our tower would be similar with regard to maximum output levels. To reach the extremely high output levels that I believe you are suggesting would require an array of dome tweeters or a high efficiency CD. Tweeters like the diamond are designed for accuracy, purity and transparency - these are very different design goals.

[Arro]

Thank you for yet another awesome and thorough response, Dave! I love how you always explain things in layman's terms so it's easy to understand your point/thoughts. You are very pragmatic with your designs and execution - I respect and appreciate this. It's one of the reasons I chose Ascend. I enjoy hearing the method to your "madness".

:)

[RicardoJoa]

I think an active bass section wouldn't be too bad like the rythmik 8 inch. Dave seems to like it . What is left would be a mid/woofer that can work as a two way or three way.

[davef]

Thank you for yet another awesome and thorough response, Dave! I love how you always explain things in layman's terms so it's easy to understand your point/thoughts. You are very pragmatic with your designs and execution - I respect and appreciate this. It's one of the reasons I chose Ascend. I enjoy hearing the method to your "madness".

:)


Thank you - I am always happy to share my thoughts on new designs and the process itself. Since we are a small company, and I prefer it to remain this way, we need to be critical of what we invest our resources into (both time and $$$) I believe I have generally made the right choices in this regard and so much of this comes from direct input from our customers - which is what makes the direct sales model so terrific!

The SEAS white diamond model is really more of a pet project to me than anything else, if we sell one pair or a few dozen, it doesn't matter - I am doing this for myself. Projects like these fuel my passion and give me a basis for which I can compare to other models. SEAS is also happy that I decided to pursue this further and keeping my vendors happy is important to me. If not for our great relationships with our many vendors, we would not exist.


I think an active bass section wouldn't be too bad like the rythmik 8 inch. Dave seems to like it . What is left would be a mid/woofer that can work as a two way or three way.

Others have asked about this as well and I have discussed it with Brian. At some point in the future, I will be looking into this option and since nobody has a closer or longer working partnership with Rythmik, in many ways it is perfect match.

[dtsequoia]

Others have asked about this as well and I have discussed it with Brian. At some point in the future, I will be looking into this option and since nobody has a closer or longer working partnership with Rythmik, in many ways it is perfect match.

Oh hell yes... Having the highs and lows of the Sierra 2 with a built in F8 would be AWESOME!!!!

[billy p]

I guess...I'm in the minority, I suppose but a properly integrated sub & speakers would be superior to having full range towers. I'd rather have the mass moving ability...of a large driver(15-18") vs that of a full range towers with 8" woofs(~28-35hz)....its not even close when I compare the two in my current set up...a good sub is far more capable option...YMMV.

[curtis]

I guess...I'm in the minority, I suppose but a properly integrated sub & speakers would be superior to having full range towers. I'd rather have the mass moving ability...of a large driver(15-18") vs that of a full range towers with 8" woofs(~28-35hz)....its not even close when I compare the two in my current set up...a good sub is far more capable option...YMMV.
I agree.

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, Dave!

I was ignorant of the SEAS Diamond tweeter's output capabilities and power handling. I inferred that it could play substantially louder than the 70-20XL RAAL ribbon. But since that is not the case, it renders my other suggestions moot!

I also greatly appreciate your discussion of passive vs. active speaker design. That's very illuminating :)

- Rob H.

[theophile]

I guess...I'm in the minority, I suppose but a properly integrated sub & speakers would be superior to having full range towers. I'd rather have the mass moving ability...of a large driver(15-18") vs that of a full range towers with 8" woofs(~28-35hz)....its not even close when I compare the two in my current set up...a good sub is far more capable option...YMMV.

Billy,

Actually, I believe you and I are in the Majority! Full range larger 10+ octave tower speaker systems (w\active bass sections) are not only much costlier to design and implement successfully, but are much more limiting in "complete room acoustical integration" compared to well designed 2-way mains + servo subs (ex: Sierra 2's + Rythmik)! The freedom to "tune-in" and obtain a sharp natural focus of the top end for superior imaging and sound stage with a small cabinet monitor is very advantageous. The freedom to minimize room interaction nulls and peaks with a specialized sub unit(s) placement in the bottom end is also very desirable.

I can understand there are room set ups and challenges that larger full range tower designs would better accommodate. It will be interesting to see what Dave and Brian come up with. However if speaker placements are not an issue (due to living arrangements, room dimensions, etc), it is hard to beat a finely tuned well matched Full-Range sub\satellite system! For me and my audio 2.1-channel music room and our 5.1 HT living room, we have "live" sound that is always enjoyable! And yes, YMWV! ;)

And now, back to our regularly scheduled "diamond in the rough" programing...:rolleyes:

Ted

[Mag_Neato]

Maybe with Dave's R&D with the Diamond tweeter he can help SEAS develop a less expensive version with nearly identical characteristics, like a Cubic Zirconia tweeter........!!

[davef]

Thanks, Dave!

I was ignorant of the SEAS Diamond tweeter's output capabilities and power handling. I inferred that it could play substantially louder than the 70-20XL RAAL ribbon. But since that is not the case, it renders my other suggestions moot!

I also greatly appreciate your discussion of passive vs. active speaker design. That's very illuminating :)

- Rob H.

Always my pleasure Rob! I have quite a bit of experience in taking an existing passive design and converting it to an active design. Subs are easy in this regard, as the filtering is simple, only one amp channel, and one can get away with using lesser quality amplification since basically everything above 200Hz is steeply rolled off.

For a speaker, I think the only way to do it right is to send the digital signal direct to the speaker, this way one can avoid many of the issues with op amps while also avoiding yet another A/D and then D/A conversion. Problem these days is that receivers and pre-processors don't offer digital outs for each HT channel. When that option becomes mainstream, I suspect we will see many more fully active speakers for consumer use...

[davef]

I guess...I'm in the minority, I suppose but a properly integrated sub & speakers would be superior to having full range towers. I'd rather have the mass moving ability...of a large driver(15-18") vs that of a full range towers with 8" woofs(~28-35hz)....its not even close when I compare the two in my current set up...a good sub is far more capable option...YMMV.

I also agree that a sub is the way to go, but for many people and especially as homes get smaller - subs are not an option.

[justthinking]

Can't believe it's been 3 month since last post on this topic!!

Dave, now you have finished with Sierra Luna, will you circle back and spend some time on the diamond tweeter tower?

[davef]

Can't believe it's been 3 month since last post on this topic!!

Dave, now you have finished with Sierra Luna, will you circle back and spend some time on the diamond tweeter tower?

I expect to be able to start serious work on this in March. We have a brand new website in the works which is very high priority for us...

[mikesiskav]

I expect to be able to start serious work on this in March. We have a brand new website in the works which is very high priority for us...

Just out of curiosity, will you be looking at a bookshelf or tower design with this tweeter, or both? And will you be looking at a higher level woofer(s) to match the tweeter?

[amnesia0287]

I too am very interested in these. I just got a pair of Funk 18.0c's and realized a great deal of my towers size and capability are just being wasted.

I for one would be super interested in like a 3-way standmount though there may be reason I am unaware of to stick with 2-way.

Either way, my goal is to get a speaker that can meet or ideally exceed the abilities of my towers above crossover. I don't really whah happens below crossover.

[davef]

Just out of curiosity, will you be looking at a bookshelf or tower design with this tweeter, or both? And will you be looking at a higher level woofer(s) to match the tweeter?

These will be considered specialty products due to the very high pricing of this tweeter. First model will be a bookshelf. A tower speaker with appropriate high performance parts to match the performance of this tweeter will easily be $10K plus for a pair. I would gladly design a tower version if there is interest, but I suspect very little interest due to the pricing.

[rsmt2000]

I am interested in the towers. Please release both the bookshelves and the towers at the same time.😀

[rsmt2000]

I too am very interested in these. I just got a pair of Funk 18.0c's and realized a great deal of my towers size and capability are just being wasted.


Can you please elaborate why you feel so?

[bkdc]

I just can't imagine how the world's finest dome tweeters would enhance my listening experience other than the dispersion/directional issues of the dome versus the ribbon tweeter. O.o I guess I'd rather remain ignorant in my RAAL bliss and not know what I'm missing. It would be safer for my wallet. ^_^

[curtis]

I just can't imagine how the world's finest dome tweeters would enhance my listening experience other than the dispersion/directional issues of the dome versus the ribbon tweeter. O.o I guess I'd rather remain ignorant in my RAAL bliss and not know what I'm missing. It would be safer for my wallet. ^_^I feel kind of the same way...but I am sure I will have a listen at Ascend when Dave is ready.

[davef]

I just can't imagine how the world's finest dome tweeters would enhance my listening experience other than the dispersion/directional issues of the dome versus the ribbon tweeter. O.o I guess I'd rather remain ignorant in my RAAL bliss and not know what I'm missing. It would be safer for my wallet. ^_^


I feel kind of the same way...but I am sure I will have a listen at Ascend when Dave is ready.

I have a very high end custom designed woofer that I want to try with the white diamond tweeter. It will be an interesting comparison to A/B this combination of components against the Sierra-2, also A/B against a white diamond Sierra-2 (same woofer, diamond tweeter) against a Sierra-2.

At this point, the only thing I am sure about is that this tweeter is the best sounding dome tweeter I have ever come across (unfortunately, I think it may also be the most expensive)

[N Boros]

I just can't imagine how the world's finest dome tweeters would enhance my listening experience other than the dispersion/directional issues of the dome versus the ribbon tweeter. O.o I guess I'd rather remain ignorant in my RAAL bliss and not know what I'm missing. It would be safer for my wallet. ^_^

I took what Dave was saying previously to mean that he wasn't completely sure if there would be an advantage in dispersion in the diamond tweeter over that of the RAAL ribbon tweeter, until he started working on the design and taking measurements, but he didn't expect much of a difference over previous dome tweeters. In fact, looking at the measurements the Sierra 2 has better (wider) horizontal dispersion than that of the Sierra 1. Now if someone has a very reflective room that is untreated, then the wider dispersion may not be a positive benefit. But, I am in the camp of designing the room around a speaker (choosing a room with a good layout, dimensions and one where we can use room treatments) with characteristics that are highly correlated with good sound, rather than trying to choose a speaker that can play nicely in a compromised room. It just seems to be an easier approach to getting the best possible sound. It sounds to me like he expects significant differences in other areas.


[The dispersion characteristics are] Basically the same as any other SEAS 1" dome tweeter. Dispersion characteristics are unaffected by material. For dome tweeters, the critical factors are the diameter of the dome, dome shape, and faceplate.


Keep in mind that limited vertical directivity, especially in a tower speaker, has very significant sonic benefits by reducing both floor and ceiling reflections... The design of our towers, even the dome versions, have limited vertical directivity. It is one of the main reasons for the somewhat unusual design of placing the midrange driver above the tweeter. That and providing a more defined acoustic center for a 3-way.

When it comes down to comparing the vertical directivity of a 29mm dome versus the ribbon in the tower, we are really only talking about an increase of ~ +/- 5 degs, which isn't much... At 10 feet back, the vertical listening window expands by only ~ +/- 10 inches.

I see the major benefits of the diamond tweeter being the delicacy and transparency of our ribbon sound, combined with that more forward in-your-face type sound and edge that dome tweeter fans love. The dispersion of this tweeter is already exceptionally good, but until I am able to take polar measurements of a completed design - I can't really get too deep into any dispersion advantages (if any)...



We compared this against nearly every other tweeter we had here at my facility - and the complete lack of compression and distortion, combined with the extremely ribbon-like open and airy sound was very surprising.


... Tweeters like the diamond are designed for accuracy, purity and transparency ...

[RandomName]

Can you please elaborate why you feel so?

Room aesthetics? In my head big standmounters will look less goofy next to my giant subs than floorstanding speakers:D.

And because they are big floor-standing speakers with a 40hz port tuning? I wouldn't be surprised if you could make them much smaller or remove a woofer if you raised the tuning to 80hz though I imagine you would want to go for something like 60-70 really if you were gonna cross at 80 just to have a smoother crossover.

I think dave could make a killing if he made a HT focused 3way bookshelf designed from the start to be used with a GOOD subwoofer system crossed like 80-120hz. Something sealed or front ported for more placement options but could match the performance of the towers when paired with a subwoofer.

I have been considering a custom slim horizon to add a center to my system, and I've been worried because it's going to be a cramped fit and it got me to thinking how much of that extra volume is there for that last 40hz which I will NEVER use in a center?


Regardless I am also interested in the diamonds simply because I am interested in bookshelves around the 10k range with a more radiating tweeter pattern. I love the raals, but my listening environment is my living room which is a short wide room connected to my kitchen. This means that you are often too close to the RAALs, so that when you are standing, you are outside of the focused part of the sound. It doesn't effect them at all from the seated position so it's not a make or break kinda issue, but I figure it can't hurt to keep it in mind. I really need to hear the Focal Sopra No1 and the Dynaudio Contour20s, they both have interesting tweeters, what would I assume be more or less the competitors to this diamond tweeter.

That said the speaker I am currently most intrigued by is the TAD Micro Evolution One. The idea of a 3way speaker in such a tiny package tickles my brain, though it's the heritage that really has me interested. If they can come even close to their bigger siblings then /drool.

No matter what I am genuinely interested to see what dave can make if he was a similar ~10k pricepoint, because I understand that sometimes better things really do just cost more, and I trust that if Dave does choose to pursue a speaker with a tweeter like this, it's because he believes that cost warrants the upgrade and is not just some token upgrade :D.




Oh also, the other nice thing with bookshelves is they are easier to store, so I can have multiples and rotate them out.

[davef]

I am interested in the towers. Please release both the bookshelves and the towers at the same time.😀

These will all be custom builds - so a tower version can easily be designed based off the final bookshelf design. If you are serious, please contact me via email and we can start discussing various options.

[bkdc]

Will you build one for yourself (or Ascend) and place it in the listening room? This tickles my fancy more and more, but I think I'd want to hear it first. And if it's a 2 way, I'd prefer front ports! But the towers interest me even more. If you're going to spend that much money on tweeters, why not just go all out with the highest quality mid and woofers. Maybe the full range driver is that good and the diamond tweeter can plumb to extremely low frequencies (for a tweeter)??? I trust your ability to match and integrate the drivers together.

[davef]

Will you build one for yourself (or Ascend) and place it in the listening room? This tickles my fancy more and more, but I think I'd want to hear it first. And if it's a 2 way, I'd prefer front ports! But the towers interest me even more. If you're going to spend that much money on tweeters, why not just go all out with the highest quality mid and woofers. Maybe the full range driver is that good and the diamond tweeter can plumb to extremely low frequencies (for a tweeter)??? I trust your ability to match and integrate the drivers together.

Yep - that's the plan. I will be building a pair to keep in our listening room and offer it as a custom product. I will use these exact same tweeters to eventually play with in a tower version as well.

[Asliang]

Hi David,

Since you entertained the idea of a diamond tweeter, have you ever entertained the idea of a diamond woofer? I believe the Raidho D-series uses one. It seems like you get the speed/impulse response of a high end metal driver like beryllium, but with all the positives of a non-metal driver like better damping.

I figure if you are going to go with a diamond tweeter, you would also want an equally fast woofer to keep up with the tweeter. Or heck, even just go the Raidho route by combining a ribbon with a diamond woofer.

[davef]

Hi David,

Since you entertained the idea of a diamond tweeter, have you ever entertained the idea of a diamond woofer? I believe the Raidho D-series uses one. It seems like you get the speed/impulse response of a high end metal driver like beryllium, but with all the positives of a non-metal driver like better damping.

I figure if you are going to go with a diamond tweeter, you would also want an equally fast woofer to keep up with the tweeter. Or heck, even just go the Raidho route by combining a ribbon with a diamond woofer.

I don't see how a diamond woofer cone is even possible to manufacture and the cost, even if possible, would be astronomical. It also would not be a good choice of material for a woofer cone.

I think Raidho is just capitalizing on the term "Diamond" by vapor depositing an extremely thin layer of some form of diamond coating onto a carbon fiber woofer cone. Not really sure how this offers any performance advantages. Reminds me of when companies were mass producing Be tweeters by using the same process, the truth eventually came out - with most of them utilizing less than 3% Be.

[Beave]

I think the diamond woofers are made by Zales. Or maybe by Helzberg. I see TV ads for them all the time just before Christmas and just before Valentine's day. I think they sell them at the parts store known as Jareds. Kay might also carry them. ;)

Speaking of which, I'm waiting for Dave's diamond tweeter speaker to come out in a gold-plated bamboo cabinet.

Just don't fall for the 'white van scam' speakers that are knock-offs, with cubic zirconium tweeters and cabinets with cheap gold paint.

Dave can start advertising it along with all these other TV commercials.

"For your one true love and best friend..."

"Every kiss begins with A (for Ascend)"

[davef]

I think the diamond woofers are made by Zales. Or maybe by Helzberg. I see TV ads for them all the time just before Christmas and just before Valentine's day. I think they sell them at the parts store known as Jareds. Kay might also carry them. ;)

Speaking of which, I'm waiting for Dave's diamond tweeter speaker to come out in a gold-plated bamboo cabinet.

Just don't fall for the 'white van scam' speakers that are knock-offs, with cubic zirconium tweeters and cabinets with cheap gold paint.

Dave can start advertising it along with all these other TV commercials.

"For your one true love and best friend..."

"Every kiss begins with A (for Ascend)"

Joking aside.... It is an extremely brittle material for even a tweeter, hence it must have a protective hard grille for protection. I just don't see this as a viable material.

However, I would be curious as to any realized performance gains from vapor deposited diamond dust.

[mikesiskav]

How about carbon fiber for a woofer? I see it on some hi-end (expensive) speakers like Magico.

[Mag_Neato]

How about carbon fiber for a woofer? I see it on some hi-end (expensive) speakers like Magico.

This would be an interesting experiment to say the least. I'd imagine the cost would be much higher than the woven polypropylene cones from SEAS, not to mention the techniques required to fabricate the cone and type of adhesives needed for surround attachment, etc. Also have to consider if the acoustic properties would be compatible with the desired tweeter, i.e. RAAL.

It would, in theory, be an ideal material: Lightweight with high rigidity. I am currently working on the highest visibility project at my company which involves Carbon fiber parts. The fabrication processes are proprietary and super hush hush.

[davef]

How about carbon fiber for a woofer? I see it on some hi-end (expensive) speakers like Magico.


This would be an interesting experiment to say the least. I'd imagine the cost would be much higher than the woven polypropylene cones from SEAS, not to mention the techniques required to fabricate the cone and type of adhesives needed for surround attachment, etc. Also have to consider if the acoustic properties would be compatible with the desired tweeter, i.e. RAAL.

It would, in theory, be an ideal material: Lightweight with high rigidity. I am currently working on the highest visibility project at my company which involves Carbon fiber parts. The fabrication processes are proprietary and super hush hush.

Carbon fiber cones have been around for a while. Some of you might remember our original 170's and 340's used Audax's Aerogel material. When designing the original 170 - Audax sent me some HM170CO's to sample against the Aerogel woofers, these were a very popular true carbon fiber woofer. Great woofers, but I preferred the Aerogel as it had suprior damping qualities and it was lower mass. The HM170's had fantastic bass though - I think carbon fiber would be an ideal cone material for bass drivers.

I still have the HM170's somewhere in my ever growing speaker museum.

[Sam1000]

Dave, when do you think you can have the demo speaker in Ascend's listening room? I was going to be in SoCal area and would love to listen to them.

[Asliang]

I don't see how a diamond woofer cone is even possible to manufacture and the cost, even if possible, would be astronomical. It also would not be a good choice of material for a woofer cone.

I think Raidho is just capitalizing on the term "Diamond" by vapor depositing an extremely thin layer of some form of diamond coating onto a carbon fiber woofer cone. Not really sure how this offers any performance advantages. Reminds me of when companies were mass producing Be tweeters by using the same process, the truth eventually came out - with most of them utilizing less than 3% Be.

It's certainly possible that Raidho is vapor depositing diamond onto their existing ceramic cone C1.1 cone, but that ceramic cone is already very good, the decay is extremely fast. But remember, it is a $30,000 pair of 2-way bookshelf speakers. They absolutely could have created a diamond cone. Not all diamond drivers are as expensive as the Seas T29D001. There are Accuton Diamond domes are only $1.5k. I can't imagine why they couldn't have a custom cone made when TAD had custom beryllium drivers made years ago when the cost of beryllium was through the roof compared to now due to being a first mover into the Be midrange market.

1588

The low Be ratio I assume you are referring to Usher Audio and their so-called beryllium. The reason the low Be percentage was even investigated in the first place was due the fact that most of the world's beryllium comes from Utah and the major supplier at the time, Brush Wellman instigated the investigation because their product pricing was way off a beryllium driver equipped speaker (Usher BE-718s at the time cost $1300/pr in Asia, and replacement Be drivers were under $100). After testing it was determined they used titanium tweeters with minuscule amounts of Be. Usher then changed their drivers to "diamond" to avoid bad publicity, but their "diamond" drivers only cost $199/pair for replacement drivers, again making it unlikely it's an actual diamond driver but probably just some type of ceramic.

Today most companies use Brush Wellman/Materon for their beryllium (Scanspeak, Focal, Paradigm, Revel, etc) so no one suspects the major brands of any shenanigans since they all use the same supplier.

[davef]

Dave, when do you think you can have the demo speaker in Ascend's listening room? I was going to be in SoCal area and would love to listen to them.

I recently received some really tricked out woofers from SEAS designed to be used with the white diamond tweeter. However, it is going to be quite some time before I design and optimize a crossover for this speaker. It is not high priority at this time - but it is something I definitely will get done sometime in 2018 as I want this pair for me ;)

[davef]

It's certainly possible that Raidho is vapor depositing diamond onto their existing ceramic cone C1.1 cone, but that ceramic cone is already very good, the decay is extremely fast. But remember, it is a $30,000 pair of 2-way bookshelf speakers. They absolutely could have created a diamond cone. Not all diamond drivers are as expensive as the Seas T29D001. There are Accuton Diamond domes are only $1.5k. I can't imagine why they couldn't have a custom cone made when TAD had custom beryllium drivers made years ago when the cost of beryllium was through the roof compared to now due to being a first mover into the Be midrange market.

Due to cleavage planes, diamond in these shapes will be extremely brittle. This is one of my concerns with even considering it for a tweeter. One touch from a poking finger or object and it will shatter. It is not an appropriate material for a woofer.



The low Be ratio I assume you are referring to Usher Audio and their so-called beryllium.

Actually no - I was investigating Be tweeters well before Usher released that speaker. At that time I was sent many samples from many different companies advertising Be domes and none of them offered any advantages over a decent metal dome. My suspicions reached a peak when TB offered me a pair of their "Beryllium" tweeters when I met with them at CES sometime in the early 2000's. The color of the dome itself was wrong -- looked more like copper.

I had already done quite a bit of research on Be domes and had many correspondences with Brush about their Be foil - but I was really interested in vapor deposition as opposed to foil.

[Asliang]

I recently received some really tricked out woofers from SEAS designed to be used with the white diamond tweeter. However, it is going to be quite some time before I design and optimize a crossover for this speaker. It is not high priority at this time - but it is something I definitely will get done sometime in 2018 as I want this pair for me ;)

Hi Dave, any hints on what kind of woofers these are? Are they OEM available on places like Madisound? Can you tell us what size it is?

Also, in case you no longer want those speakers, any chance you'd have an interest in selling them or making a custom pair ? :P

[davef]

Hi Dave, any hints on what kind of woofers these are? Are they OEM available on places like Madisound? Can you tell us what size it is?

Also, in case you no longer want those speakers, any chance you'd have an interest in selling them or making a custom pair ? :P

Like all of our woofers -- fully custom made to our specs and not available to anyone but us. I don't want to post public info on these woofers, but they use the SEAS Curv cone (which is fantastic) combined with an extremely advanced motor system and optimized former and voice coil length for precisely the frequency range and mass we want for this woofer. Purely a joint effort between SEAS and us.

I doubt I would sell my personal pair - but yes, this would be a special order product that we can build for others but the pricing on a pair would likely shock you. With these woofers and the white diamond tweeter, just a brief estimation on pricing would put it in the range of about $7500/pair.

If you're serious - send me an email and I can give you an estimate of when I will have my pair available so that you can personally demo them here. I would not want you to even consider ordering a pair of these without personally auditioning them first. Because these would be special order only - these will not be covered under our 30-day satisfaction guarantee - or if we do decide to cover them, there would be at least a 15% re-stock fee. White diamond tweeters are currently retailing for nearly $7K per matched pair, these are not parts that we will keep in stock (obviously)

[curtis]

....I can give you an estimate of when I will have my pair available so that you can personally demo them here.
Mitch and I will come listen!! I am sure others in the gang would be interested as well. :)

[Asliang]

Like all of our woofers -- fully custom made to our specs and not available to anyone but us. I don't want to post public info on these woofers, but they use the SEAS Curv cone (which is fantastic) combined with an extremely advanced motor system and optimized former and voice coil length for precisely the frequency range and mass we want for this woofer. Purely a joint effort between SEAS and us.

I doubt I would sell my personal pair - but yes, this would be a special order product that we can build for others but the pricing on a pair would likely shock you. With these woofers and the white diamond tweeter, just a brief estimation on pricing would put it in the range of about $7500/pair.

If you're serious - send me an email and I can give you an estimate of when I will have my pair available so that you can personally demo them here. I would not want you to even consider ordering a pair of these without personally auditioning them first. Because these would be special order only - these will not be covered under our 30-day satisfaction guarantee - or if we do decide to cover them, there would be at least a 15% re-stock fee. White diamond tweeters are currently retailing for nearly $7K per matched pair, these are not parts that we will keep in stock (obviously)

Sounds neat, I would love to hear them. I definitely would be interested if it could surpass something like the Paradigm Personas with their beryllium midrange drivers (price wise it would be competing directly with their B bookshelf). In that way I'm actually more interested in the performance of the woofer than the tweeter. I'm thinking of going to canjam this year so I might drop by around that time (early april), I would love to hear them. Of course it entirely depends on your schedule, if it won't be ready for a while I can wait.

Will this driver be comparable to the Scanspeak Illuminator 15WU that's often paired with RAAL tweeters in custom designs in terms of bass extension/performance/distortion, or will be much better? Also is this going to have the same bass extension as the regular Seas curv woofer, or will it extend further?

[Asliang]

Also are you able to get the T29D001 with the black faceplate like on the Arabesque Minissimo speakers? That could easily go into a piano black Sierra cabinet, whereas with the white faceplate I'd feel tempted to go for a custom gloss white finish.

1589

[davef]

Also are you able to get the T29D001 with the black faceplate like on the Arabesque Minissimo speakers? That could easily go into a piano black Sierra cabinet, whereas with the white faceplate I'd feel tempted to go for a custom gloss white finish.



We will be going with a black faceplate.

[Asliang]

Thanks! Good to know. Also I notice the Scanspeak illuminator is commonly paired with either the Seas diamond tweeter (with the Arabesque Minissimo monitors) as well as with RAAL-based speakers (Selah Tempesta, Salk Silk Monitors, etc) as well as in a ton of high end monitors. Do you think these custom curv woofers will outperform the 5" Scanspeak Illuminator? I ask that because since you've been building RAAL-based speakers for years I assume you must have come across the driver at least once.

If you haven't, then I'll post some REW FR and distortion measurements of the Salk Silk Monitor (RAAL 70-20 & Scan Illuminator), Ascend Sierra-1, Ascend Sierra-2, Dynaudio C1, and Paradigm Persona Bs as a reference point, and maybe I can get your take on where the performance of this new driver will fall relative to the standard curv and scan illuminator or persona beryllium woofer--once you take measurements of it.

[Sam1000]

We will be going with a black faceplate.

This is great news that folks will get a chance to listen to this speaker soon. This could be another home run for Ascend in a different price bracket based on price/performance ratio. I would be really interested in this design as well, but audition will be a little problematic since I'm located in SF bay area.

@Dave, apart from measurements, it would be awesome if you could also provide some subjective impressions.

[davef]

This is great news that folks will get a chance to listen to this speaker soon. This could be another home run for Ascend in a different price bracket based on price/performance ratio. I would be really interested in this design as well, but audition will be a little problematic since I'm located in SF bay area.

@Dave, apart from measurements, it would be awesome if you could also provide some subjective impressions.

I strongly doubt we would sell many pairs of these due to the pricing. This is really more of a personal pet project that came about from being highly impressed with the white diamond tweeter. Another reason for doing this is to see how our ribbon based products compare with a speaker that uses the best components possible. When completed, I will definitely share my thoughts - I am as curious as anyone. I'll likely build up a pair with the white diamond tweeters as well as our RAAL 70-20xram just to see which I prefer.

To be honest, I get a bit nervous just handling these SEAS diamond tweeters as I have been known to drop a tweeter every now and then :o These are the single most expensive transducers I have ever handled. I don't even know of any woofers or tweeters that are more expensive...

[davef]

Mitch and I will come listen!! I am sure others in the gang would be interested as well. :)


Always a good time and everyone is welcome of course. I am thinking late March early April....

[DavidD]

Always a good time and everyone is welcome of course. I am thinking late March early April....

Please count me in if there is room...

[Asliang]

I took some measurements using REW and UMIK-1 mic, I think my room has a node around 90hz which is why there's a distortion peak at that frequency it seems with all the monitors. I am very curious on how the new curv woofer in this monitor will stack up to the Scanspeak illuminator. I remember someone pointing out there's a slight THD peak in the 1KHz range with the Seas U16RCY curv cone which seems to have been picked up by my measurements.

I think in my measurements I was most surprised that the Paradigm beryllium woofers actually had pretty high 3rd and 5th harmonic distortion compared to polypropylene (Dynaudio) and paper drivers (Salk). I guess metal drivers naturally have more of these odd harmonics which give it a "metallic" sound?

If the new modified curv woofer can keep up with the diamond dome I would love it hear it, it may be my end game speakers. I'd be excited to see measurements and to listen to them.


Ascend Sierra 2
1596
https://i.imgur.com/aQIraEQ.jpg

Dynaudio C1
1597
https://i.imgur.com/IGRN8G2.jpg

Paradigm Persona B
1598
https://i.imgur.com/LWjFpbp.jpg

Salk Silk Monitor
1599
https://i.imgur.com/pk7EJBM.jpg

[mikesiskav]

Wow, that is a nice group of speakers to have in your home. What octave smoothing are you using?

[Asliang]

Wow, that is a nice group of speakers to have in your home. What octave smoothing are you using?

I just used the default settings on REW, I have no idea, I am a neophyte here lmao. The speakers aren't all mine, I just borrowed them to measure them because I was curious how they would perform.

That Scanspeak Illuminator is a really impressive woofer though, especially when you consider the Silk Monitor costs only half or less than half as much as the Paradigm or Dynaudio speakers. I can see how it made it's way all the way to the $20,000 Arabesque Minissimo monitor's which also have the Seas diamond tweeter.

[mikesiskav]

Oh nevermind, it says no smoothing at the top. How far away from the speakers did you place the mic?

[Asliang]

Roughly 1.5 meters.

[davef]

Roughly 1.5 meters.

One cannot judge or compare the performance of woofers when they are used within the speaker itself.

The Scan Illuminator 15W is indeed a nice woofer (have a few of them in our lab), but it has a bad cone breakup mode that must be dealt with by trapping it out in the crossover. This creates the need for a more complex crossover which introduces other issues and the notch filter (the "trap") causes phase issues. In a 2-way, I would only use this woofer with a tweeter that can be crossed extremely low, or as the bass woofer in a 3-way.

One should never judge a woofer based on THD --- anything below 1% is entirely inaudible and you really can't properly measure distortion in this manner.

That said, in your measurements, you do realize that the S2 is showing significantly lower overall THD than the Salk Silk, correct? The THD levels are calculated for you, and the Silk is showing a calculated THD of 35.7% while the S2 is calculated at 13.7% (I don't believe either of these)

Unless one has a lot of experience measuring distortion, graphs can be confusing. The distortion graph on the Silk "looks" great - but note the fundamental of the S2 being at 59.2dB while the fundamental of the Silk is at 55.8dB. This means that while you might not have been aware of it, you were either hitting the S2 with more than double the amount of power as the Silk, or the S2 has significantly higher efficiency (which it does). Salk Silk is listed at 83dB while the S2 is 87dB - this accounts for the 4dB difference in the fundamental.

Distortion is calculated at how far down in level from the fundamental the distortion reading is. In other words, distortion levels are based upon the output level, as they should be of course.

Take for example the S2 at 1kHz, the graph shows 2nd order HD at a level of 25dB, or 34.2dB lower than the fundamental (59.2dB - 25dB) or expressed as % = 1.9%

Now with the Silk at the same frequency, we are also showing a level of 25dB, but in this case, the fundamental is at 55.8dB, so a difference of 30.8dB, expressed as a percent = 2.9% (significantly higher level of distortion)

Overall, the S2 is producing 4dB more output than the Silk for these measurements - thus looking at the graphs without full understanding of how this all works can lead to completely wrong conclusions... as I believe has happened here ;)

Additionally, you also don't know how much of that distortion is coming from, for example - your electronics, the crossover of the speaker, your mic-preamp, your laptop, the back-wave of the woofer -- too many uncontrolled variables to list.

When choosing a woofer for a speaker, THD is by far, the parameter that is of the least concern for professionals.

This is nothing personal of course, but neither you nor anyone else should draw any conclusions from these distortion measurements. The only graph you can really use for judging performance is the overall in-room frequency response of the complete speaker, provided the measurements were taken with both the speaker and mic in the exact same position for each speaker... Of which, all of the in-room response measurements look good, as I would expect from all of these high performance speakers.

Hope this makes sense!

[davef]

Please count me in if there is room...

Certainly.... :)

[Asliang]

One cannot judge or compare the performance of woofers when they are used within the speaker itself.

The Scan Illuminator 15W is indeed a nice woofer (have a few of them in our lab), but it has a bad cone breakup mode that must be dealt with by trapping it out in the crossover. This creates the need for a more complex crossover which introduces other issues and the notch filter (the "trap") causes phase issues. In a 2-way, I would only use this woofer with a tweeter that can be crossed extremely low, or as the bass woofer in a 3-way.

One should never judge a woofer based on THD --- anything below 1% is entirely inaudible and you really can't properly measure distortion in this manner.

That said, in your measurements, you do realize that the S2 is showing significantly lower overall THD than the Salk Silk, correct? The THD levels are calculated for you, and the Silk is showing a calculated THD of 35.7% while the S2 is calculated at 13.7% (I don't believe either of these)

Unless one has a lot of experience measuring distortion, graphs can be confusing. The distortion graph on the Silk "looks" great - but note the fundamental of the S2 being at 59.2dB while the fundamental of the Silk is at 55.8dB. This means that while you might not have been aware of it, you were either hitting the S2 with more than double the amount of power as the Silk, or the S2 has significantly higher efficiency (which it does). Salk Silk is listed at 83dB while the S2 is 87dB - this accounts for the 4dB difference in the fundamental.

Distortion is calculated at how far down in level from the fundamental the distortion reading is. In other words, distortion levels are based upon the output level, as they should be of course.

Take for example the S2 at 1kHz, the graph shows 2nd order HD at a level of 25dB, or 34.2dB lower than the fundamental (59.2dB - 25dB) or expressed as % = 1.9%

Now with the Silk at the same frequency, we are also showing a level of 25dB, but in this case, the fundamental is at 55.8dB, so a difference of 30.8dB, expressed as a percent = 2.9% (significantly higher level of distortion)

Overall, the S2 is producing 4dB more output than the Silk for these measurements - thus looking at the graphs without full understanding of how this all works can lead to completely wrong conclusions... as I believe has happened here ;)

Additionally, you also don't know how much of that distortion is coming from, for example - your electronics, the crossover of the speaker, your mic-preamp, your laptop, the back-wave of the woofer -- too many uncontrolled variables to list.

When choosing a woofer for a speaker, THD is by far, the parameter that is of the least concern for professionals.

This is nothing personal of course, but neither you nor anyone else should draw any conclusions from these distortion measurements. The only graph you can really use for judging performance is the overall in-room frequency response of the complete speaker, provided the measurements were taken with both the speaker and mic in the exact same position for each speaker... Of which, all of the in-room response measurements look good, as I would expect from all of these high performance speakers.

Hope this makes sense!

Interesting! So being that THD is not the important factor here, I guess the major question is will the new Curv woofer have greater bass extension than the one in the S2, or will the difference mainly be power handling? What popped out immediately to me was that the Scan Illuminator played quite a bit deeper.

Regarding the design goal of avoiding a complex crossover, will the diamond tweeter allow a simpler crossover design? What are your opinions of using a lower order crossover, for example Dynaudio has used 1st order crossovers for decades, which seems to create a very good driver integration as seen on the impulse response. And do you think you will be using a lower order crossover for the "Sierra Diamond" speaker?

[Asliang]

1600

Regarding this photo, I assume this was a Sierra Luna the driver was installed into. Is it possible at all to modify the regular Sierra cabinet to be front ported as well? I think you mentioned something about that on the Sierra NRT thread that you made some front ported cabinets but I assume you never decided to mass produce them. Got any of those still sitting around?

Would it be possible to make a Sierra w/ Diamond tweeter that's front ported?

[Beave]

Interesting! So being that THD is not the important factor here, I guess the major question is will the new Curv woofer have greater bass extension than the one in the S2, or will the difference mainly be power handling? What popped out immediately to me was that the Scan Illuminator played quite a bit deeper.

Regarding the design goal of avoiding a complex crossover, will the diamond tweeter allow a simpler crossover design? What are your opinions of using a lower order crossover, for example Dynaudio has used 1st order crossovers for decades, which seems to create a very good driver integration as seen on the impulse response. And do you think you will be using a lower order crossover for the "Sierra Diamond" speaker?

Dynaudio, from what I remember, doesn't use 1st order *electrical* crossovers. They use fairly complex, high-level *electrical* crossovers to get what approximates 1st order electro-acoustic crossover slopes (ie, the slope when the crossover and driver response are combined).

If you look at any of the crossover boards of Dynaudio speakers, there are simply WAY too many components for them to be 1st order electrical crossovers.

B&W, on the other hand, do use 1st order electrical crossovers on many of their speakers - a single cap for highpassing their tweeters, and a single inductor for lowpassing their midwoofers.

[Beave]

Excellent explanation Dave, as usual.

One thing I would add is that even these in-room frequency response measurements aren't an ideal way of capturing what is actually heard. Anechoic measurements, or pseudo-anechoic, are of course better. Short of that, it would be better to do some spatial averaging, something like a +/- 15 degree window, for in-room responses.

For example, all the graphs show a significant ripple around 6-10kHz. But none of these speakers have this ripple in their anechoic responses. This is probably a room issue at the exact measuring location (or perhaps a mic issue?), and one that would probably be reduced quite a lot by spatial averaging.

See Floyd Toole's book(s) for further info.

[Beave]

I just looked at the raw response of the Scan Illuminator 15W. Wow, it does indeed have a large resonance. The Scan Revelator 15W doesn't have nearly as large a peak.

One other comment: The Salk Silk with the Scan Illuminator might have more bass extension than the S2 in part because of its lower sensitivity. It's always a tradeoff between bass extension and sensitivity with a similar sized driver in a similar sized cabinet.

[davef]

Interesting! So being that THD is not the important factor here, I guess the major question is will the new Curv woofer have greater bass extension than the one in the S2, or will the difference mainly be power handling? What popped out immediately to me was that the Scan Illuminator played quite a bit deeper.

Regarding the design goal of avoiding a complex crossover, will the diamond tweeter allow a simpler crossover design? What are your opinions of using a lower order crossover, for example Dynaudio has used 1st order crossovers for decades, which seems to create a very good driver integration as seen on the impulse response. And do you think you will be using a lower order crossover for the "Sierra Diamond" speaker?

There is a LOT more to woofer performance than simply power handling and bass extension. A few of the main factors I look for are (not necessarily in this order) - smooth on and off-axis frequency response, excellent transient response, and very low cone resonance at higher frequencies.

Bass extension is controlled more by the design of the speaker itself than by the woofer. The reason you are impressed with the bass extension of the Salk Silk is because of the low efficiency of this speaker (83dB). If we dropped the efficiency of the S2 down to equal that of the Salk Silk, we would effectively have the same - actually slightly deeper bass extension.

The Scan 15W does not have deeper bass extension than the woofer we use in the S2. Please familiarize yourself with Hoffman’s Iron Law of Speaker Building.


Regarding the design goal of avoiding a complex crossover, will the diamond tweeter allow a simpler crossover design? What are your opinions of using a lower order crossover, for example Dynaudio has used 1st order crossovers for decades, which seems to create a very good driver integration as seen on the impulse response. And do you think you will be using a lower order crossover for the "Sierra Diamond" speaker?

When I was referring to the complexity of the crossover, I was not referring to the order of the filter slopes. I was referring to additional crossover networks to compensate for issues with the woofer or a tweeter. For example, a parallel notch filter - which is needed to compensate for the cone breakup on the Scan 15W uses 3 components (a cap, inductor and a resistor). While it is a competent bandaid for the issue with this woofer - it creates other issues. Notch filters, impedance compensation networks, complex L-pads, Zobel networks - I prefer to avoid using these whenever possible by focusing on getting the woofer and tweeter right for our specific application. This is precisely the reason we customize nearly all and even fully design some our own transducers. We could simply use the Scan 15w and call it a day (that is actually really simple) - but it is not how we do things here. I like the motor on the Illuminator but prefer the cone of the Revelator -- I suspect the Scan Ellipticor woofers might be a good compromise.

1st order filters create more wave form interference as more of the woofer and tweeter response bleeds into each other, worsening comb filtering. This gets worse the further off-axis you are and for a woofer, with low order filters - you run into issues with beaming and for a tweeter, run into issues with power handling. The only advantage 1st order filters offer is there is no phase shift.

With the tricked out Curv woofer that I intend to use in this Diamond Sierra, the goals were:

even faster transient response
less cone breakup
Better cooling (higher output before dynamic compression)
significant reduction in inductance


Bass response will be determined by how much overall efficiency of the speaker I am willing to sacrifice, but I am not a fan of using too much padding on a tweeter...

[Asliang]

There is a LOT more to woofer performance than simply power handling and bass extension. A few of the main factors I look for are (not necessarily in this order) - smooth on and off-axis frequency response, excellent transient response, and very low cone resonance at higher frequencies.

Bass extension is controlled more by the design of the speaker itself than by the woofer. The reason you are impressed with the bass extension of the Salk Silk is because of the low efficiency of this speaker (83dB). If we dropped the efficiency of the S2 down to equal that of the Salk Silk, we would effectively have the same - actually slightly deeper bass extension.

The Scan 15W does not have deeper bass extension than the woofer we use in the S2. Please familiarize yourself with Hoffman’s Iron Law of Speaker Building.



When I was referring to the complexity of the crossover, I was not referring to the order of the filter slopes. I was referring to additional crossover networks to compensate for issues with the woofer or a tweeter. For example, a parallel notch filter - which is needed to compensate for the cone breakup on the Scan 15W uses 3 components (a cap, inductor and a resistor). While it is a competent bandaid for the issue with this woofer - it creates other issues. Notch filters, impedance compensation networks, complex L-pads, Zobel networks - I prefer to avoid using these whenever possible by focusing on getting the woofer and tweeter right for our specific application. This is precisely the reason we customize nearly all and even fully design some our own transducers. We could simply use the Scan 15w and call it a day (that is actually really simple) - but it is not how we do things here. I like the motor on the Illuminator but prefer the cone of the Revelator -- I suspect the Scan Ellipticor woofers might be a good compromise.

1st order filters create more wave form interference as more of the woofer and tweeter response bleeds into each other, worsening comb filtering. This gets worse the further off-axis you are and for a woofer, with low order filters - you run into issues with beaming and for a tweeter, run into issues with power handling. The only advantage 1st order filters offer is there is no phase shift.

With the tricked out Curv woofer that I intend to use in this Diamond Sierra, the goals were:

even faster transient response
less cone breakup
Better cooling (higher output before dynamic compression)
significant reduction in inductance


Bass response will be determined by how much overall efficiency of the speaker I am willing to sacrifice, but I am not a fan of using too much padding on a tweeter...

Very informative. Makes me more interested to see how this project turn out. I did see in the Seas T29D001 measurements that the tweeter plays quite low (seems like down to 500Hz?) Might we be seeing a lower than usual crossover point with the Sierra Diamond?

Also, regarding that thought process about diamond woofers, apparently Accuton makes a 5.4" diamond midrange driver that is used with the Tidal La Assoluta speakers. They claim it's made out of the same material as their diamond tweeter.

Being that they are a 500k speaker, and the 1" tweeters are ~$4k/pair, I'm sure the woofers are something astronomically priced.

http://www.laassoluta.com/intro.htm

[bkdc]

One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.

[curtis]

One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.
Ditto!

[theophile]

One thing I've learned in audio. $$$$ in the chase of exotic designs and materials does not equal better sound. Thoughtful and conscientious speaker design is still #1.


Ditto!

Ditto #2!! ;)

[davef]

Very informative. Makes me more interested to see how this project turn out. I did see in the Seas T29D001 measurements that the tweeter plays quite low (seems like down to 500Hz?) Might we be seeing a lower than usual crossover point with the Sierra Diamond?

Just because the response measurements show that a tweeter can produce linear output at such low frequencies (for a tweeter at least), doesn't mean it is a smart design choice... We will likely high pass this tweeter between 1800 - 2200 kHz.



Also, regarding that thought process about diamond woofers, apparently Accuton makes a 5.4" diamond midrange driver that is used with the Tidal La Assoluta speakers. They claim it's made out of the same material as their diamond tweeter.

Being that they are a 500k speaker, and the 1" tweeters are ~$4k/pair, I'm sure the woofers are something astronomically priced.

Until I see various raw measurements of this woofer or can evaluate one for myself, I fully standby what I previously stated. Just because something can be produced, doesn't always mean it should be... I can't imagine any professional in this industry willing to use a woofer that likely costs $20K+ (other than the designer of this 1/2 million dollar pair of speakers)

[PoppaOptic]

After listening to a set of B&W 804 speakers with the "diamond" tweeter I don't give much credence to techno-babble for marketing. It's all in how the whole speaker comes together. My S2 bookshelf speakers sound way better, to me, than the B&W 804.

Good job Ascend!

[N Boros]

After listening to a set of B&W 804 speakers with the "diamond" tweeter I don't give much credence to techno-babble for marketing. It's all in how the whole speaker comes together. My S2 bookshelf speakers sound way better, to me, than the B&W 804.

Good job Ascend!

I own the Sierra 2s as well. I haven't heard the B&W's you are mentioning. And I don't want to get start a debate about who is a better speaker designer and who might be using better materials. I'm thinking that Ascend speakers and B&W both use quality components and are designed well.

So really the difference is what the designers were going for especially in this case of the B&W 804s and the Ascend Sierra 2s. The B&Ws are not going for an accurate sound, whereas the Ascends are going for an accurate sound. So really, in the case of what you heard, I think that what you heard is two speakers that had two very different design goals.

[PoppaOptic]

I own the Sierra 2s as well. I haven't heard the B&W's you are mentioning. And I don't want to get start a debate about who is a better speaker designer and who might be using better materials. I'm thinking that Ascend speakers and B&W both use quality components and are designed well.

So really the difference is what the designers were going for especially in this case of the B&W 804s and the Ascend Sierra 2s. The B&Ws are not going for an accurate sound, whereas the Ascends are going for an accurate sound. So really, in the case of what you heard, I think that what you heard is two speakers that had two very different design goals.

Not sure where you're going with all of this since I clearly stated "to me" referring to sound quality. The B&W sounded extremely harsh to my ears. I like bright speakers, but these were harsh to my ears and didn't have the desired sound quality for what I like to listen to in music.

I also listened to some Paradigm Persona speakers with a Beryllium Mid and Beryllium Hi per "marketing". I thought these sounded really good.

I then listened to some Bryston Middle T speakers and thought they were the best speakers I've heard. They don't have any marketing hype and honestly look like something from a K-Mart bluelight special. For how I enjoy listening to music they were great.

My whole point is simply marketing is just that...marketing. It doesn't matter what is used if the entire system doesn't perform well together and even then that doesn't matter since it's totally subjective to an individual's listening preferences.

[N Boros]

Not sure where you're going with all of this since I clearly stated "to me" referring to sound quality. The B&W sounded extremely harsh to my ears. I like bright speakers, but these were harsh to my ears and didn't have the desired sound quality for what I like to listen to in music.

I also listened to some Paradigm Persona speakers with a Beryllium Mid and Beryllium Hi per "marketing". I thought these sounded really good.

I then listened to some Bryston Middle T speakers and thought they were the best speakers I've heard. They don't have any marketing hype and honestly look like something from a K-Mart bluelight special. For how I enjoy listening to music they were great.

My whole point is simply marketing is just that...marketing. It doesn't matter what is used if the entire system doesn't perform well together and even then that doesn't matter since it's totally subjective to an individual's listening preferences.

I agree with you that marketing of speakers or just about anything else should typically be ignored. At best they are stretching the truth with much of what they say.

The only point that I was trying to make is simply that the Sierra 2s and B&W 804s should sound drastically different, because they had drastically different design goals. So removing what drivers and materials were used to construct either or even if they were designed well or not from the equation, I think it is mostly just the different design goals.

B&W aims for the smile curve with elevated highs and bass, with the midrange recessed. I would think that most people set their volume level based on the midrange, probably the critical midrange where our hearing is most sensitive. Coming from an accurate speaker that you are used to, you then set the volume level for a recording on the B&Ws and find the bass and highs seem way too hot, even to the point where the highs came off as harsh. I would probably have experienced the same thing listening to them. But, if some people have lost a lot of high end in their hearing and prefer the bass to be a bit elevated, then maybe the B&Ws sound great. This must be why they are such a popular speaker. But, I'm betting that the "harshness" at least from B&Ws speakers are not because they cut corners on the quality of the drivers or something else. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[diesel79]

Any updates or pics of the speakers with the diamond tweeters?

[davef]

Any updates or pics of the speakers with the diamond tweeters?

SEAS is making us our own version of the white diamond, purely aesthetic changes only. I prefer not to post any pics until we get our version in - which should be very soon.

[diesel79]

Very cool. Thanks for the update!

[bclark8923]

SEAS is making us our own version of the white diamond, purely aesthetic changes only. I prefer not to post any pics until we get our version in - which should be very soon.

Would we be able to use the new tweeter on the Luna's?

[N Boros]

Would we be able to use the new tweeter on the Luna's?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it looks like the last photo of the first post in the thread shows a Luna with the Diamond tweeter in it.

[curtis]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it looks like the last photo of the first post in the thread shows a Luna with the Diamond tweeter in it.
It sure does!

[bclark8923]

It sure does!

Awesome :)

Has any pricing ranges been announced yet? Just curious how much I have to start saving :P

[curtis]

Awesome :)

Has any pricing ranges been announced yet? Just curious how much I have to start saving :P
At this point I think Dave is just experimenting.

[N Boros]

Awesome :)

Has any pricing ranges been announced yet? Just curious how much I have to start saving :P

It sounds like it would be at least $6,800 just to cover the tweeters. That doesn't include the crossovers and any modification to the cabinet needs to make everything work. So if you plan on having the diamond tweeters in the Luna cabinet, then I'd guess at least the cost of a pair of Lunas plus $6,800. For a Sierra 2, at least the cost of a pair of Sierra 2s plus $6,800. And so on.



Claus then tells me he has something he wants me to hear... He breaks out this small mysterious box, revealing two very well protected objects that look like tweeters. I have been a tweeter guy since I started in this industry so he instantly had my interest.

To my surprise, he unwrapped 2 of the new SEAS White Diamond tweeters. My first thoughts were, wow, stunning craftsmanship but with a retail price of $6800 for (2) tweeters, I really wasn't too interested.

Claus eventually convinced me to measure and have a listen...

15 mins turned into 2 hours rather quickly...

Everyone here also wanted to have a listen...

I have evaluated countless numbers of dome tweeters in my 30+ years in this industry. From cheap $4.00 domes to the highest quality BE domes.. This diamond dome left me speechless, literally.


For me, I don't think that I would consider implementing these in the Luna cabinets, since Dave goes on to say this:


I know the next question will be "well how does it compare to a RAAL ribbon?" -- truth is, it has a ribbon quality to the highs but does upper mids better, and has practically unlimited power and dynamics when properly implemented.


It seems that putting them into a small Luna cabinet with the smaller woofer as the only midrange and bass driver would severely limit this tweeter's output capabilities. If I were going to spend at least $6800 just for the tweeters alone and then around another $1500 for the Luna cabinets and bass/midrange drivers, why not spend just an extra $1500 to get it in a tower or Horizon form factor with much more dynamic range and the improvements in the midrange to go with it. Unless of course these were going to be used as surround speakers and that much more compact form factor was needed. If that is the case, let me know where you live so I stop by to hear how these diamond tweeters sound in a 5.1 setup. :)

[davef]

Would we be able to use the new tweeter on the Luna's?

Yes, with some minor customization work.


Awesome :)

Has any pricing ranges been announced yet? Just curious how much I have to start saving :P

These are the finest dome tweeters money can buy, but with a current retail price of $7152 per pair, they are quite cost prohibitive. I would say, on average, using a pair of these tweeters in any of our products would add ~$6K to our asking price.

[Asliang]

Yes, with some minor customization work.



These are the finest dome tweeters money can buy, but with a current retail price of $7152 per pair, they are quite cost prohibitive. I would say, on average, using a pair of these tweeters in any of our products would add ~$6K to our asking price.

Is the previously quoted price of $7,500 for the Sierra Diamond with upgraded CURV woofer still accurate or is that possibly changing? If not, how much is upgraded Seas Curv new woofer going to add to the asking price?

Second question, isn't the Seas T29D001 usually installed in a vertical orientation (the Seas website and also retail speakers with this driver are usually oriented this way). However the Luna test speaker you used put the vertical notch in the 3 o'clock position. Was this done for acoustic reasons?

1624

1625

1626

[davef]

Is the previously quoted price of $7,500 for the Sierra Diamond with upgraded CURV woofer still accurate or is that possibly changing? If not, how much is upgraded Seas Curv new woofer going to add to the asking price?

I don't believe I have quoted a price with the Diamond tweeter and prototype Curv midrange woofers. As I mentioned previously, it is best to discuss this by email. I will not quote firm prices for custom speakers on a public forum.


Second question, isn't the Seas T29D001 usually installed in a vertical orientation (the Seas website and also retail speakers with this driver are usually oriented this way). However the Luna test speaker you used put the vertical notch in the 3 o'clock position. Was this done for acoustic reasons?

The tweeter offers symmetrical dispersion. The orientation of this tweeter does not matter. The "vertical notch" you mention is simply a lens to protect the diamond dome and is specifically designed to not interfere with dispersion. We would orient the tweeter in any way the customer prefers.

[davef]

Something special arrived today.....

[Mag_Neato]

Hubba hubba! A nice tower speaker to exploit those jewels would be nice.

[merrymaid520]

Did they arrive chained to a guys wrist?

[davef]

Hubba hubba! A nice tower speaker to exploit those jewels would be nice.

Yep - this pair is actually going into a pair of towers...


Did they arrive chained to a guys wrist?

The delivery came with a large supply of Sierra-2 woofers. I warned the guys in advance that these will be on the pallet somewhere and that when they find them, to immediately put them on my desk. When I got to the office, I then locked them away in my office after I checked spacing to make sure they properly fit in the tower cabinet. I actually get a bit nervous handling these :o

[merrymaid520]

Looking forward to seeing the end product....and hearing feedback on how they sound!

[jimb]

.... I actually get a bit nervous handling these :o

I think I'd be nervous OWNING them!

[Mag_Neato]

Dave, do you think you and SEAS could work to create an Ascend-specific version of the Diamond tweeter that could reduce its cost as well as be exclusive to your speakers, similar to the RAAL project?

[theophile]

...I actually get a bit nervous handling these :o

No problem Dave...jewelers do it all the time! :rolleyes:

[davef]

Dave, do you think you and SEAS could work to create an Ascend-specific version of the Diamond tweeter that could reduce its cost as well as be exclusive to your speakers, similar to the RAAL project?

I have discussed this in detail with Claus and I don't think it is possible. What makes this diamond tweeter so darn good is the combination of the vapor deposited pure diamond dome in combination with the patented hexadym motor system. Reducing the cost would mean sacrificing one of these features and what stood out to me most about this tweeter, besides how natural it sounds, was how well damped and clear it is. That damping is due to the motor system which is designed to dramatically reduce back-wave reflections from the dome. Remember soundwaves are produced equally from the dome, projecting forward from the dome and backwards from the dome. The back-wave is out of phase with the front wave and it is critical to stop the back-wave from interfering with the front wave (not an easy task). This is a major feature of what makes our NrT dome so good, the hexadym magnet system takes that to the next level.

We have reduced our cost on these as much as possible without any hits to performance. One was going with a custom machined aluminum faceplate compared to the stock Corian faceplate. Another possibility is that we purchase in bulk but I am obviously not a fan of that idea ;)

If you are interested in a speaker with these tweeters, send me an email and we can discuss. I have another customer also interested and if we can time this right - perhaps we can make a bulk purchase with a mild reduction on pricing.

[Mag_Neato]

I have discussed this in detail with Claus and I don't think it is possible. What makes this diamond tweeter so darn good is the combination of the vapor deposited pure diamond dome in combination with the patented hexadym motor system. Reducing the cost would mean sacrificing one of these features and what stood out to me most about this tweeter, besides how natural it sounds, was how well damped and clear it is. That damping is due to the motor system which is designed to dramatically reduce back-wave reflections from the dome. Remember soundwaves are produced equally from the dome, projecting forward from the dome and backwards from the dome. The back-wave is out of phase with the front wave and it is critical to stop the back-wave from interfering with the front wave (not an easy task). This is a major feature of what makes our NrT dome so good, the hexadym magnet system takes that to the next level.

We have reduced our cost on these as much as possible without any hits to performance. One was going with a custom machined aluminum faceplate compared to the stock Corian faceplate. Another possibility is that we purchase in bulk but I am obviously not a fan of that idea ;)

If you are interested in a speaker with these tweeters, send me an email and we can discuss. I have another customer also interested and if we can time this right - perhaps we can make a bulk purchase with a mild reduction on pricing.

I guess there's no short cutting certain technologies. Understood.

Yes, I am interested in the Diamond tweeter, but there's no possible way I could afford it! I am watching this as it develops out of curiosity. I hope whatever the results are with the tower, that it blows away anything near its price!

[davef]

Something really cool shipping to a lucky customer of ours on Monday....

[merrymaid520]

Me? Did I win?

;)
They look outstanding!

[Mag_Neato]

Ooooooh! An $8,000 pair of Sierra towers!!

[davef]

Have been listening to the pair since I made that post and all I can say is WOW... Very RAAL 70-20xram-like with regards to smoothness and detail, but yet they have their own unique character to them, warmer, perhaps a tad bit less clinical, more energy in the 4-6kHz range but no fatigue or sibilance.

Ridiculously transparent and airy, Dina and I both are hearing things that we have never heard in the same recordings we have demo'd thousands of times. What immediately stands out to me is with regard to complex passages whereby many instruments / vocalists are playing together at the same time. There is no muddling together, everything is extremely detailed and discrete, very "live". The best instrument separation I have ever heard...

There are also some interesting technical advantages of this tweeter with regards to crossover design and while the customer and I discussed the possibility of using different midrange drivers -- it turned out that our very low mass under hung neo-motor mid blended perfectly.

These are definitely not for everyone though, besides being the most expensive tweeters that I know of -- they are hyper detailed and you literally hear everything. Listening to a Diana Krall song, during a few sections of a song - while she wasn't actually singing, we were able to hear her licking and smacking her lips together deep in the background.

Father's day is next week, I will be building myself my own pair of these :)

[jimb]

Very cool! Any chance to get a full set of measurements on them and see if you can correlate the differences you hear to features in the measurements vs RAAL Towers??? My previous experience with equalization in an active crossover showed me that very small differences had a discernible effect on the character of the sound.

:)

[curtis]

Wow!!

[diesel79]

Very cool! I guess I will just have to stick it out with my RAAL’s. Lol

[bkdc]

Woah. I'm more interested the off-axis performance of this speaker tweeter as I am more than satisfied with the RAAL. Ignorance is bliss. :)

[rsmt2000]

Dave

Do you think it warrants a new Uber tower with better mid range and woofers to match with this tweeter in future or is it going to be a tweeter only upgrade for foreseeable future?

[N Boros]

Woah. I'm more interested the off-axis performance of this speaker tweeter as I am more than satisfied with the RAAL. Ignorance is bliss. :)


I’m pretty sure that Dave mentioned earlier in the thread that the dispersion would be just like any other dome tweeter. So the raal ribbon tweeter will have wider dispersion. In just about all other areas the diamond tweeter will outperform the raal ribbon tweeter though, he said.

[davef]

Very cool! Any chance to get a full set of measurements on them and see if you can correlate the differences you hear to features in the measurements vs RAAL Towers??? My previous experience with equalization in an active crossover showed me that very small differences had a discernible effect on the character of the sound.:)

We will only publish measurements for products that are in production. This is a special custom order and designed specifically for what this customer was looking for. SEAS Diamond tweeter speakers are purely custom and on a case by case basis so we will discuss preferences with the customer and design a crossover around their particular tastes...

[davef]

Woah. I'm more interested the off-axis performance of this speaker tweeter as I am more than satisfied with the RAAL. Ignorance is bliss. :)

Horizontal off-axis is representative of a typical 1 inch dome tweeter. Although the slight waveguide in the tweeter faceplate does improve off-axis response. Measurement wise, I don't think I have ever measured better horizontal off-axis than the RAAL's and I doubt I ever will... As expected, the diamond dome has greater vertical dispersion than the RAAL ribbons...

[davef]

In just about all other areas the diamond tweeter will outperform the raal ribbon tweeter though, he said.

I wouldn't go that far... They are different, they both have advantages and disadvantages compared to each other. Give me a tweeter that takes the best characteristics of the RAAL 70-20 and combine that with the best characteristics of the SEAS white diamond, technically impossible to do but I can dream.... ;)

[jimb]

... plasma ...
;)

[Asliang]

Would love to hear the Sierra Diamond monitors. Dave, are you going to put out your personal pair for demo or are you waiting on additional drivers? Any possible ETA on when a demo might be available? Thanks :)

[davef]

... plasma ...
;)

Indeed... this would be the ultimate solution. The new plasma tweeter from Lansche looks very interesting and is supposedly capable of being crossed at 1500Hz. Only problem is that this line of speakers starts at $32K for a 2-way bookshelf...

I had once asked my cousin, who is a PHD'd engineer working at a particle accelerator, to design me one for consumers that also isn't a health hazard (typical plasma tweeters emit ozone). I am going to send him a reminder....

[davef]

Would love to hear the Sierra Diamond monitors. Dave, are you going to put out your personal pair for demo or are you waiting on additional drivers? Any possible ETA on when a demo might be available? Thanks :)

My personal pair of 2-way diamond tweeter bookshelf speakers will be kept here at the office, and yes -- without question they will be available for demo.... Not sure of the timing just yet, but soon...

[N Boros]

Indeed... this would be the ultimate solution. The new plasma tweeter from Lansche looks very interesting and is supposedly capable of being crossed at 1500Hz. Only problem is that this line of speakers starts at $32K for a 2-way bookshelf...

I had once asked my cousin, who is a PHD'd engineer working at a particle accelerator, to design me one for consumers that also isn't a health hazard (typical plasma tweeters emit ozone). I am going to send him a reminder....

That will take a hardcore audiophile to get a speaker with a plasma tweeter, unless your cousin can solve this issue. Not only do they have to be comfortable with the price-point, but they have to wear a respirator while they listen to the speaker. :)

[davef]

We will miss them...

Last pic I took before we shipped them out. Spent about 10 hours in total A/B'ing...

[Asliang]

Hey David,

Regarding the new prototype Seas curv woofers, where do these woofers sit in the Seas hierarchy? Have you been able to measure them? I would how they would fare in terms of blending with the diamond tweeter compared to Seas excel or exotica woofers. When Seas offered the prototype Curv driver, were these drivers designed specifically to be paired with the diamond tweeter or came from an unrelated project?

[davef]

Hey David,

Regarding the new prototype Seas curv woofers, where do these woofers sit in the Seas hierarchy? Have you been able to measure them? I would how they would fare in terms of blending with the diamond tweeter compared to Seas excel or exotica woofers. When Seas offered the prototype Curv driver, were these drivers designed specifically to be paired with the diamond tweeter or came from an unrelated project?

I am not going to discuss performance or measurements regarding custom designed prototype parts in a public forum. I understand you are excited about auditioning the bookshelf version of this speaker, but please email me regarding questions like this.

[shinny]

Dave,
I like the a.v. table in the photo--would you mind sharing where you got it? Thanks.

Steve

[davef]

Dave,
I like the a.v. table in the photo--would you mind sharing where you got it? Thanks.

Steve

It was from Omnimount but I no longer see it on their site.

[Sam1000]

We will miss them...

Last pic I took before we shipped them out. Spent about 10 hours in total A/B'ing...

Can you provide a brief impression from your A/B'ing?

[davef]

Can you provide a brief impression from your A/B'ing?

There is definitely a difference in overall timbre. With the white diamond tweeter, treble is more pronounced and the tweeter makes itself known. It is more forward sounding than the RAAL and does better at very high volume levels but it also never sounds fatiguing and there is simply no hint at all of any sibilance or strain. It is extremely transparent, perhaps even more so than the RAAL 70-20 and it does reveal more detail - which becomes evident with very complex passages.

I give the edge to the 70-20 with metallic sounds such as cymbals and really anything with impact because as good as the white diamond tweeter is, it can not match the transient accuracy of the 70-20.

As to which I actually preferred -- it really came down to what I was listening to. For music with many instruments playing at the same time, I preferred the white diamond. For loud rock, also the white diamond. But for acoustic guitar, or music with metallic impact instruments (any type of cymbal, triangles, bells etc) I found the 70-20 to be sound more realistic.

Imaging between the 2 was very different -- and I didn't really have a preference one way or another but for listeners who prefer a first row type of experience, they would definitely prefer the imaging of white diamond. For those who prefer something more laid back, I would then guess the RAAL 70-20.

Is the white diamond tweeter worth the significant expense over the RAAL 70-20xram? For some listeners, I would say yes but before anyone considers this expense, it is important to discuss with me. I highly doubt any professional has done as extensive A/B'ing between these 2 tweeters as I have and most likely, very few professionals have even listened to this rather remarkable tweeter....

[jimb]

... the white diamond tweeter ... is extremely transparent, perhaps even more so than the RAAL 70-20 and it does reveal more detail - which becomes evident with very complex passages. … For music with many instruments playing at the same time, I preferred the white diamond.

Interesting! Any significant volume dependence to this aspect, such as, is the 70-20 is better at low volumes? Diamond coat (the pistonic part of) that ribbon! ;)

[davef]

Interesting! Any significant volume dependence to this aspect, such as, is the 70-20 is better at low volumes? Diamond coat (the pistonic part of) that ribbon! ;)

In high performance tweeters like these, there are no changes at different volume levels until the tweeter reaches its thermal/dynamic limits, at which point it will start to compress. What does change is our own hearing (Fletcher Munson Curve)

A layer of vapor deposited diamond on the ribbon diaphragm itself is an interesting idea, but it wouldn't actually work. What makes diamond a great material for a dome tweeter is that it is very stiff, sound travels through it very quickly, it is an exceptional thermal conductor and it pushes the dome breakup modes so high in frequency that they are well beyond the capabilities of human hearing. In fact, with the white diamond tweeter, even with our very sophisticated measurement equipment and reference grade ACO Pacific microphone, which is accurate to ~ 50kHz, we were unable to measure any breakup modes... I feel this is the major benefit to a diamond dome...

There are many moving parts to a dome tweeter and with a very stiff dome, you want a very flexible surround

However, with true ribbon tweeters - there is no concern about dome breakup modes as there really aren't any and the ribbon diaphragm is the only moving part (one would need to treat the entire ribbon). As such, the ribbon needs to be quite flexible in order to freely resonate to produce sound waves. Think of it like a guitar string...

[jimb]

In high performance tweeters like these, there are no changes at different volume levels until the tweeter reaches its thermal/dynamic limits, at which point it will start to compress. What does change is our own hearing (Fletcher Munson Curve)

... with true ribbon tweeters - there is no concern about dome breakup modes as there really aren't any and the ribbon diaphragm is the only moving part (one would need to treat the entire ribbon). As such, the ribbon needs to be quite flexible in order to freely resonate to produce sound waves. Think of it like a guitar string...

Thanks. I thought these RAALs had the ribbon essentially floating in the mag field, rather than stretched through it (though obviously attached at the ends). I did not understand it properly from the ribbon replacement video I once saw. Anyway, you are up entirely too late!

[davef]

Thanks. I thought these RAALs had the ribbon essentially floating in the mag field, rather than stretched through it (though obviously attached at the ends). I did not understand it properly from the ribbon replacement video I once saw. Anyway, you are up entirely too late!

I wouldn't describe the ribbon as "floating" -- I would use the term suspended in the magnetic field. My reference to a guitar string was rather simplistic, but relevant with regard to what would happen if the ribbon diaphragm (or a guitar string) were coated with an extremely stiff substrate.

[Mag_Neato]

These Diamond tweeters should have huge WAF: "Honey, I bought you some diamonds, but they are for display purposes only. I know they were expensive, but they are a symbol of my love and affection for you!"

[merrymaid520]

These Diamond tweeters should have huge WAF: "Honey, I bought you some diamonds, but they are for display purposes only. I know they were expensive, but they are a symbol of my love and affection for you!"

Our anniversaries coming up, I'll give that one a shot and report back! :)

[mikesiskav]

These Diamond tweeters should have huge WAF: "Honey, I bought you some diamonds, but they are for display purposes only. I know they were expensive, but they are a symbol of my love and affection for you!"

HAha, I love that!

[davef]

These Diamond tweeters should have huge WAF: "Honey, I bought you some diamonds, but they are for display purposes only. I know they were expensive, but they are a symbol of my love and affection for you!"

Ha -- Now I am just waiting for someone good at photoshop to make a diamond tweeter engagement ring... Best of both worlds ;)

[justthinking]

My personal pair of 2-way diamond tweeter bookshelf speakers will be kept here at the office, and yes -- without question they will be available for demo.... Not sure of the timing just yet, but soon...

Dave,

Any particular reason why you went with 2-way bookshelf design for your own pair and not a 3-way tower?

[davef]

Dave,

Any particular reason why you went with 2-way bookshelf design for your own pair and not a 3-way tower?

Much easier to carry around from my home to the office :) Plus we have already built a pair of diamond towers.

[jimb]

Will you use the S2 woofer in the S2 cabinet? Obviously, the XO will be different...

[davef]

Will you use the S2 woofer in the S2 cabinet? Obviously, the XO will be different...

Yes, and I also have a new proprietary woofer (for a 2-way) designed especially by SEAS to use with the White Diamond...

[Elessar]

Yes, and I also have a new proprietary woofer (for a 2-way) designed especially by SEAS to use with the White Diamond...

Are they going to be a regular AA offering or more of a custom order basis?

[davef]

Are they going to be a regular AA offering or more of a custom order basis?

Our white diamond based speakers will be purely custom (special order) products. Estimated lead times will be ~ 4 months, likely sooner, but I like to play it safe on estimates.

[justthinking]

Our white diamond based speakers will be purely custom (special order) products. Estimated lead times will be ~ 4 months, likely sooner, but I like to play it safe on estimates.

So you are testing the diamond tweeter both with the current sierra-2 woofer AND a new custom woofer!?

Can't wait for you to share more detail about this new custom woofer and what you plan to do with it..

[davef]

So you are testing the diamond tweeter both with the current sierra-2 woofer AND a new custom woofer!?

Can't wait for you to share more detail about this new custom woofer and what you plan to do with it..

Yes, testing with both woofers. It turns out that the mid we use in the towers ended up being a fantastic match with the white diamond, but this woofer is not really appropriate for a 2-way.

I am going to ask the customer who received the diamond towers to post the email he sent us... Hopefully he will do so....

[Asliang]

Yes, testing with both woofers. It turns out that the mid we use in the towers ended up being a fantastic match with the white diamond, but this woofer is not really appropriate for a 2-way.

I am going to ask the customer who received the diamond towers to post the email he sent us... Hopefully he will do so....

Hey Dave,

Have you thought about a "high end" ribbon monitor, for example a monitor with the 70-20XR tweeter and the new prototype curv woofer? Seems like that combination would be an interesting product as it would be a ID competitor to a ribbon-based monitors like the ones Raidho sells, as I understand it they use ceramic woofers but have the same hexadym-type magnet system on their driver. It might be interesting to see if there's a market for that, especially with how well Raidho ribbon speakers have been doing at trade shows (i.e. AXPONA) and it seems they are a pretty popular brand of high end ribbon speakers.

[davef]

Hey Dave,

Have you thought about a "high end" ribbon monitor, for example a monitor with the 70-20XR tweeter and the new prototype curv woofer? Seems like that combination would be an interesting product as it would be a ID competitor to a ribbon-based monitors like the ones Raidho sells, as I understand it they use ceramic woofers but have the same hexadym-type magnet system on their driver. It might be interesting to see if there's a market for that, especially with how well Raidho ribbon speakers have been doing at trade shows (i.e. AXPONA) and it seems they are a pretty popular brand of high end ribbon speakers.

We could -easily- offer this and be a direct competitor. My only concern is I believe there is a ceiling as to how much $$$ someone is willing to spend on a pair of speakers purchased from an ID retailer, especially since we don't do tradeshows. My concern might not be valid though as ID Audio has grown considerably and perhaps consumers have become more confident. Thoughts?

[Asliang]

We could -easily- offer this and be a direct competitor. My only concern is I believe there is a ceiling as to how much $$$ someone is willing to spend on a pair of speakers purchased from an ID retailer, especially since we don't do tradeshows. My concern might not be valid though as ID Audio has grown considerably and perhaps consumers have become more confident. Thoughts?

Well honestly I don't know the economics of this AT ALL. But I would say one way to test that market would be to explore the costs of maybe hiring someone just to go to the major trade shows (AXPONA, RMAF, LA Audio Show, The Home Entertainment show, etc). I believe Salk is an ID brand that shows up at most of these shows so maybe you could ask them for details? They seem to have a market for high end ID speakers (soundscapes, exoticas).

I know a lot of small vendors that sell headphones all manage to show up at the tradeshows. However, I understand the economics of headphones is quite different from speakers, for example RMAF or Canjam the vendors just rent a booth/table for about $600-1000. Whereas for speakers you would have to at the minimum rent a show room, which would cost you about $3-4k for standard show room. Plus you have to pay to ship and insure the speakers, and hire somebody to present the speakers for you (some vendors just wing it and will just hire local kids and have them hand out brochures, others have long term employees represent them).

I mean you could dip your toes and do a show exhibit and see how many extra orders you get--assuming you are looking to expand your market for certain models. This will obviously involve some expense, but at least in the headphone space, it seems like a lot of vendors show up, even small ones, so the economics of it must make sense even for smaller operations to advertise at these shows (after all it's a way to immediately demo multiple brands against each other, even if it's in a somewhat sub-optimal noisy show floor). I can't imagine the cost being the biggest issue, probably time and energy is the biggest thing here.

[davef]

Well honestly I don't know the economics of this AT ALL. But I would say one way to test that market would be to explore the costs of maybe hiring someone just to go to the major trade shows (AXPONA, RMAF, LA Audio Show, The Home Entertainment show, etc). I believe Salk is an ID brand that shows up at most of these shows so maybe you could ask them for details? They seem to have a market for high end ID speakers (soundscapes, exoticas).

I know a lot of small vendors that sell headphones all manage to show up at the tradeshows. However, I understand the economics of headphones is quite different from speakers, for example RMAF or Canjam the vendors just rent a booth/table for about $600-1000. Whereas for speakers you would have to at the minimum rent a show room, which would cost you about $3-4k for standard show room. Plus you have to pay to ship and insure the speakers, and hire somebody to present the speakers for you (some vendors just wing it and will just hire local kids and have them hand out brochures, others have long term employees represent them).

I mean you could dip your toes and do a show exhibit and see how many extra orders you get--assuming you are looking to expand your market for certain models. This will obviously involve some expense, but at least in the headphone space, it seems like a lot of vendors show up, even small ones, so the economics of it must make sense even for smaller operations to advertise at these shows (after all it's a way to immediately demo multiple brands against each other, even if it's in a somewhat sub-optimal noisy show floor). I can't imagine the cost being the biggest issue, probably time and energy is the biggest thing here.

I have decades of experience at these shows and started to absolutely hate them about 20 years ago. One of the things I promised myself when I started Ascend was to never do these shows again. One option might be to partner with another company who already has a room such that they show off our speakers with their equipment etc, and we just provide some literature...

That is basically the most that I would be willing to do.

[curtis]

The Home Entertainment show...
FWIW...I went to this show this year. I go almost every year, but this year I had not really planned on it. I had to get out the house on Sunday and do something.

It was TERRIBLE. The number of vendors was low, nothing that really interested me. The highlight to me was talking to Mark Waldrep of AIX Records (I go to his booth whenever I see it) and talked to him about the show...he said the traffic was really low. We also talked about MQA...that's a whole different story.

[Sam1000]

I have decades of experience at these shows and started to absolutely hate them about 20 years ago. One of the things I promised myself when I started Ascend was to never do these shows again. One option might be to partner with another company who already has a room such that they show off our speakers with their equipment etc, and we just provide some literature...

That is basically the most that I would be willing to do.

That would be great if you can partner with someone and have a presence at these shows. For e.g. very few people would buy a speaker with diamond tweeters without actually hearing them, especially when there's 15% re-stocking fees.

I was the first one to take a delivery of RAAL towers, but there was a good feedback on RAAL tweeters all around. Whereas there's absolutely no feedback on diamond tweeters. I would love to listen/audition them before I can pull the trigger. If you can partner with someone, at least few of potential customers can get to listen to them and it can create a positive buzz.
Is there a chance you can partner with someone at California Audio Show show in Oakland at the end of this month? I have been going there for last few years and have always enjoyed my time there.

[skater1950]

This is my review of my custom Serria tower with the Seas Diamond Tweeter.

So... First I have to say that the fit and finish of the speakers surprised me...the finish is as good as I have ever seen...and the box is so soild...and well made...Are these cabinets on piece?...Still today every time I see them , I see the quality of the cabinet...I am so pleased with the looks and I got lucky as the color matches exactly with my wife's piano...So the two musical instruments in my home match.

Bass...The first day I set the speakers up about 2 feet out from the corners because I thought it would help them image , but at that distance from the corner I was wanting more Bass response. And over all the speakers sound a little lean in there response unless I was playing at very high volume levels...you had warned me that I would most likely need a sub woofer so I wasn't too worried.

But the second day I placed the speakers back more into the corners, about 6 inches from the corners, which is were I need them to be to look best in the room, and now the Bass is perfect and strong...I can feel it..and not booming, the Bass is the most musical bass I have ever heard. When I hear Bass I know what instrument produced it..A drum, guitar, or lower registrar piano keys..

Midrange driver. The midrange driver doesn't seem to have any coloration...I cannot heard it doing anything wrong...In the past I always seem to hear a softness to poly type cones, like the dynaudio drivers...but all I hear out of this driver is music and the most detail I have ever heard from a speaker. No other driver even comes close, most of my speakers in the past used at least 6 1/2 drivers, and these are the first Neo magnet speakers I have owned..

Tweeter...Did you hook it up?...As I said I hear no coloration from the midrange driver, but I get no sense that the tweeter is even playing, except for the fact that I hear details on every recording that I have owned for years that I never even knew were there. So much more description of the voice or instruments, every detail of Joan Baez's voice...with the details being at the correct volume, making the singers sound so life like. With all this new detail the voices convey so much more emotion. I also hear things like a actual voice supporting the singer in the back round that now stands out as clear as a bell that I never even heard before. This tweeter conveys the presents and power of the
music like I have never heard before. The music is so '' life like".

The midrange and tweeter blend so well it as if I am listening to one driver...so much information with such power and conviction and emotion ...its hard to believe I am listening to a 5 " midrange and 1" tweeter....

It's a world class tweeter that someone has to hear to believe, and the midrange driver is in the same category...but it is Dave's design and crossover work that make this a GREAT speaker!

[diesel79]

Very cool. Would be awesome to be able to hear a pair some day.

[Sam1000]

Hi Skater1950:
Thanks for your review and impressions. Really helps someone like me into right direction. What speakers were you using before?
cheers..

[davef]

This is my review of my custom Serria tower with the Seas Diamond Tweeter.

So... First I have to say that the fit and finish of the speakers surprised me...the finish is as good as I have ever seen...and the box is so soild...and well made...Are these cabinets on piece?...Still today every time I see them , I see the quality of the cabinet...I am so pleased with the looks and I got lucky as the color matches exactly with my wife's piano...So the two musical instruments in my home match.

Bass...The first day I set the speakers up about 2 feet out from the corners because I thought it would help them image , but at that distance from the corner I was wanting more Bass response. And over all the speakers sound a little lean in there response unless I was playing at very high volume levels...you had warned me that I would most likely need a sub woofer so I wasn't too worried.

But the second day I placed the speakers back more into the corners, about 6 inches from the corners, which is were I need them to be to look best in the room, and now the Bass is perfect and strong...I can feel it..and not booming, the Bass is the most musical bass I have ever heard. When I hear Bass I know what instrument produced it..A drum, guitar, or lower registrar piano keys..

Midrange driver. The midrange driver doesn't seem to have any coloration...I cannot heard it doing anything wrong...In the past I always seem to hear a softness to poly type cones, like the dynaudio drivers...but all I hear out of this driver is music and the most detail I have ever heard from a speaker. No other driver even comes close, most of my speakers in the past used at least 6 1/2 drivers, and these are the first Neo magnet speakers I have owned..

Tweeter...Did you hook it up?...As I said I hear no coloration from the midrange driver, but I get no sense that the tweeter is even playing, except for the fact that I hear details on every recording that I have owned for years that I never even knew were there. So much more description of the voice or instruments, every detail of Joan Baez's voice...with the details being at the correct volume, making the singers sound so life like. With all this new detail the voices convey so much more emotion. I also hear things like a actual voice supporting the singer in the back round that now stands out as clear as a bell that I never even heard before. This tweeter conveys the presents and power of the
music like I have never heard before. The music is so '' life like".

The midrange and tweeter blend so well it as if I am listening to one driver...so much information with such power and conviction and emotion ...its hard to believe I am listening to a 5 " midrange and 1" tweeter....

It's a world class tweeter that someone has to hear to believe, and the midrange driver is in the same category...but it is Dave's design and crossover work that make this a GREAT speaker!

Skater1950.

Thanks for posting your review of the custom diamond towers. This pair of speakers was a true labor of love for us and I greatly miss them. As we had discussed by email multiple times, I was exceedingly pleased just how well the white diamond tweeter blended with the stock tower midrange. I also fully agree that it is a tweeter that needs to be heard, hopefully we will be able to make it a bit more mainstream for that niche market...

Thanks again!!!!

[theophile]

Skater1950.

Thanks for posting your review of the custom diamond towers. This pair of speakers was a true labor of love for us and I greatly miss them. As we had discussed by email multiple times, I was exceedingly pleased just how well the white diamond tweeter blended with the stock tower midrange. I also fully agree that it is a tweeter that needs to be heard, hopefully we will be able to make it a bit more mainstream for that niche market...

Thanks again!!!!

Out of curiosity Dave, How does the mid-top end sound compared to the towers using the NRT dome? I'm sure there are tonal and timbre improvements with the Seas Diamond, but are there also improvements in the soundstage imaging, depth and 3D placement of instruments and vocals?

Thanks,

Ted

[davef]

Out of curiosity Dave, How does the mid-top end sound compared to the towers using the NRT dome? I'm sure there are tonal and timbre improvements with the Seas Diamond, but are there also improvements in the soundstage imaging, depth and 3D placement of instruments and vocals?

Thanks,

Ted

Hi Ted,

I would say there were significant improvements across the board from ~1600Hz and up. And since soundstage / imaging cues are mostly in the upper frequencies, improvements in this area were quite noticeable. I wouldn't go as far to say night and day, but everyone who listened (and we did direct A/B comparisons) noticed improvements.

[davef]

Something special for a demo tomorrow.

It just doesn't get any better than this for a bookshelf speaker.... Enjoy!

[diesel79]

Something special for a demo tomorrow.

It just doesn't get any better than this for a bookshelf speaker.... Enjoy!

Very cool! Any details on that woofer?

[davef]

Very cool! Any details on that woofer?

Purely custom made for us by SEAS, with a slightly different Curv cone and an advanced motor system based on the SEAS Excel line of products. This woofer is exceptional!!!

[diesel79]

I wish I lived closer! Would be awesome to stop in to check these out, and some towers.

[mikesiskav]

OH WOW!! That must be that high end Curv woofer.

[bkdc]

Something special for a demo tomorrow.

It just doesn't get any better than this for a bookshelf speaker.... Enjoy!

Wow that looks beautiful. I wish you could create a front-ported version of the Sierra-2.

[curtis]

Are the bought and paid for, or can we come listen?

[davef]

I wish I lived closer! Would be awesome to stop in to check these out, and some towers.

You are welcome anytime of course...


OH WOW!! That must be that high end Curv woofer.

You have got to come hear these. Let me know your schedule... I am having a tough time to put into words how these perform, but what keeps coming to mind is the difference between an OLED and LED TV.

With the majority of high end speakers, they are incredible at certain genres, and might lose something with other genres. Everything I am throwing at these speakers sounds incredible. From hard rock to metal, Jazz, classical, electronic, rap and even country. I am thinking the best male and female vocal reproduction from a bookshelf speaker I have ever heard, the "attack" from instruments is incredible and even at crazy loud volumes, there is no fatigue yet the detail and background "blackness" (hence OLED reference) is just insane... I actually clipped our ADA amp, scared the heck out of me as damaging one of these components would have made this old man come to tears.

[davef]

Are the bought and paid for, or can we come listen?

This pair is for me :) It is certainly possible they will be sold tomorrow, but if sold - I will likely build another pair for the customer who is coming if he is willing to wait for the components.

Definitely come have a listen Curtis...

[davef]

Wow that looks beautiful. I wish you could create a front-ported version of the Sierra-2.

We can certainly make a custom front ported cabinet for you, but I am curious why you want front ported.

Send me an email....

[N Boros]

We can certainly make a custom front ported cabinet for you, but I am curious why you want front ported.

Send me an email....

Wouldn’t the Sierra Luna Center that you are working on, be pretty close in performance to the Sierra 2, but in a front ported more compact design?

[Sam1000]

Purely custom made for us by SEAS, with a slightly different Curv cone and an advanced motor system based on the SEAS Excel line of products. This woofer is exceptional!!!

Will there be performance gain with this woofer in tower? Can it replace the mid driver as well as woofers in the tower? I'm not saying there's anything lacking with current mid driver, just asking out of curiosity after reading your post (With Diamond tweeter). Too bad, I'm don't live in SoCal. I have been itching to hear these new offerings.