Ascend Atmos speakers?

[goldark]

I'm interested in creating a home theater with Dolby Atmos/DTS X. I'm wondering if there are any plans by Ascend to create upward-firing Atmos speakers that reflect off the ceiling?

Another possibility I guess, is to mount something like the HTM 200 SE high enough to create the overhead effect, but I'd rather not put in the effort to do that if upward-firing is an option.

Is Ascend interested in Atmos?

[merrymaid520]

I am also interested in this and to ask if the Htm-200 can be ceiling mounted? I will be building in a few years and plan to have a dedicated HT room with an Atmos capable speaker layout.....All Ascend of course:)

[N Boros]

I'm pretty sure Dave has said he doesn't have plans of an upward firing module or an in-ceiling speaker, due to the compromised design. This is the same reason he doesn't want to make a bipole or dipole surround speaker. Dolby and THX both seem to indicate that a wide dispersion speaker is best in the overhead position. THX says that in-ceiling speakers are best whenever possible.

I am planning on an Atmos/DTS X setup maybe about 3 years down the line as well. If I were doing it today I think I might lean towards NHT. Their main speakers seem to have similar design goals to that of Ascend as far as an accurate flat frequency response on axis, wide dispersion, and good transient response. I think that Ascend brings a bit more performance for something comparable at a similar price point in most cases, which is why I went with them for my mains. Their in-ceiling speakers all have three tweeters angled to produce a wide dispersion in all directions, which is exactly what we are looking for with an overhead speaker. They are a little pricey, but I would only do top fronts and top middles, since I plan on having surround backs, so it wouldn't be too bad.

[FirstReflect]

I really doubt that Dave F. would ever design and sell an upward-firing Atmos-enabled speaker or Module.

For the SE Series, using HTM-200SE mounted very high up on the walls or mounted overhead on the ceiling would be the typical solution. For the Sierra Series, Dave has announced his plans to create a "Sierra Sat" that can be wall (or ceiling) mounted.

I haven't heard all of the upward-firing options out there. In fact, I've only heard three so far:

The Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 were my first ever experience with upward-firing Atmos-enabled speakers. It was a store demo, and they had a 5.1.4 setup using four of the SP-EFS73 Towers. The overhead simulation effect seemed to work pretty well for the Front Left & Right Towers, which of course, also had the Front Dolby coming from their tops. The two Towers that were positioned as Surround Left & Right had their upward-firing sections acting as Surround Dolby speakers. Since the SP-EFS73 Towers aren't that tall, and since they were positioned quite close to the listening position, in my listening demo, I was able to hear the direct sound coming from those Surround speakers, so the simulation of the sounds coming from overhead didn't work all that well in that particular scenario and setup.

My second experience was with Onkyo's 5.1.2 speaker package. Again, a store demo, and the upward-firing drivers were built into the Front Left & Right bookshelf speakers. Onkyo uses a single 3.25" driver as the sole upward-firing component. And frankly, in this store demo setup, I couldn't hear any compelling reason to use this 5.1.2 package over a standard 5.1 speaker package.

My third and final experience was with Klipsch's RP-140SA Atmos Modules, and those have been, by far, the most impressive and satisfying thus far. I could actually hear what they were doing and adding to the sound field quite clearly, so that alone put them head and shoulders above the other two demos. I think the combination of being much more efficient and capable of higher output plus the "beamy" nature of the horn-loaded tweeter helps a lot.

Naturally, anyone asking about Atmos speakers on this message board is probably concerned about timbre match and having a seamless and coherent sound field all around and above them. But I've gotta tell ya, I'm about as overly critical as anyone can get on that front, and having perfectly matching overhead or upward-firing speakers hasn't mattered even a little bit to me. The sounds that are up there basically only come in two varieties: ambient, diffuse effects that you can only notice by switching back and forth between Atmos and non-Atmos, and discrete, pin-point sounds that are basically just there to make you go, "golly! That came from right above me!"

In either case, a perfect timbre match to your Front speakers just doesn't matter, IMO. I found that to be the case with the "old school" Front Height speakers back when we were using Dolby Pro Logic IIz or DTS Neo:X upmixing, and I find that to still be the case with Atmos overhead speakers. I believe that part of it is that we humans just aren't that good at hearing sounds coming from above us to begin with, and part of it is that the sounds being put up there by the mixers are, like I said, either just ambience, or "whiz, bang" type of effects.

So to me, if you're going the upward-firing route, what matters is actually being able to notice that anything at all is different vs. regular 7.1. Basically, I want to be able to notice those "whiz, bang" overhead effects and genuinely perceive them as having come from overhead. And for the ambience, I just want to get a genuine sense of being better enveloped by a "dome" of sound than what regular 7.1 provides.

So in my limited experience, the Klipsch Atmos Modules would be what I would opt for. Granted, maybe the KEF, Atlantic Technology, ELAC, etc. options that I haven't heard would be just as good or better. But most of those are close in design to the Pioneer Elite concentric drivers that I heard first, and those didn't impress me nearly as much as the Klipsch.

So will the Klipsch Modules timbre match your Ascend speakers? Nope. But take it from an extremely critical listener: I don't think it matters even a little bit. If I were actually mounting speakers on my ceiling or way up high on my side walls, I'd probably opt to use matching Series Ascend speakers just because...why not? But for upward-firing, I just want the effect to be noticeable and to work, and I think the Klipsch Modules are presently your best bet for that.

- Rob H. - AV Rant Podcast Co-host

[Johnny_Mac_III]

I'm interested in creating a home theater with Dolby Atmos/DTS X. I'm wondering if there are any plans by Ascend to create upward-firing Atmos speakers that reflect off the ceiling?

Another possibility I guess, is to mount something like the HTM 200 SE high enough to create the overhead effect, but I'd rather not put in the effort to do that if upward-firing is an option.

Is Ascend interested in Atmos?

I can't really speak for Dave, but I've never known Ascend to be much of a compromise type company. They usually create a great speaker at a certain price point that no other manufacturer can or they don't make it all. Since upward firing speakers are a compromise, I very much doubt Ascend will design upward firing atmos modules. I think this is one of the reasons Ascend doesn't carry bipole or dipole speakers as well. Not that there is anything wrong with dipole, bipole, or upward firing Atmos modules, but I just don't think that the philosophies mesh with what Ascend currently does. Just my thinking. Again, I'm not speaking for Dave, this is just my personal take on it.

I think it would be well worth it to mount those HTM-200s on the ceiling. Pinpoint makes some clean looking ceiling mounts. Believe me, after running speaker wire for 7 speakers through my attic in 100 degree weather last summer, the last thing I want to do is add atmos speakers on my ceiling, but I think in the end it will be sooo worth it. If you can't, I would ask around for some upward firing speakers that would be the closest timbre match to your current speakers.

[merrymaid520]

I agree with the above comments regarding Ascend likely not developing an atmos or ceiling type speaker. It sounds as if using the 200's on the ceiling might do though:). I guess when the time comes, I can go that route (not the best visual option) or try and get timbre matched in ceiling speakers which may or may not offer better dispersion for the type of sound effects they will likely be playing.

[davef]

Is Ascend interested in Atmos?

yes, we are certainly interested but still in the process of evaluation and curiosity about other soon to be released competing formats. There are some characteristics in the Atmos specs that don't make sense from the acoustic science aspect. One is the fact that they call for wide dispersion from the upward firing modules. To properly reflect (bounce) off the ceiling, a more directional speaker would be much more beneficial. The more sound that is directed towards the ceiling and less into the room, the less wave interference will occur with the reflected sound off the ceiling meeting the direct-sound from the speaker.

In some regards, Atmos goes against much of the theories that have been studied and learned for the delivery of accurate sound. That certainly doesn't mean we will avoid it, but I have much experience over the last 3 decades with regard to similar new "specs" for home theater that also presented contrary theories to the delivery of accurate sound, and these eventually died out with consumers always returning to accuracy...

[davef]

I am also interested in this and to ask if the Htm-200 can be ceiling mounted? I will be building in a few years and plan to have a dedicated HT room with an Atmos capable speaker layout.....All Ascend of course:)

Hey B...

Yes, most definitely. The 200's work well as ceiling mounted speakers for Atmos. We now have several customers doing this and they have been very happy with the results. The 200's are exceptionally versatile speakers :)

[goldark]

Hey B...

Yes, most definitely. The 200's work well as ceiling mounted speakers for Atmos. We now have several customers doing this and they have been very happy with the results. The 200's are exceptionally versatile speakers :)

Dave, would the Sierra Satellite with the ribbon tweeter work well mounted in the ceiling for Atmos? Or would the dispersion characteristics of the 200 SE be better from the ceiling?

I assume the Sierra Satellite with RAAL ribbon would work beautifully for normal surrounds.

[davef]

Dave, would the Sierra Satellite with the ribbon tweeter work well mounted in the ceiling for Atmos? Or would the dispersion characteristics of the 200 SE be better from the ceiling?

I assume the Sierra Satellite with RAAL ribbon would work beautifully for normal surrounds.

From a technical standpoint, speakers with ribbon tweeters will make poor in-ceiling speakers for Atmos or any other format. However, whether or not someone could really hear the difference in those dispersion characteristics in a real room environment is debatable.

For typical surrounds, with typical placement -- the Sierra Sats would make fantastic surrounds -- and the wide horizontal dispersion of the ribbons becomes very advantageous.

[Blue Dude]

I'm considering a future upgrade to create a 7.2.4 ATMOS setup. I'm thinking of installing HTM-200's as front height and top middle ATMOS speakers in what is currently a 7.2 system. The front heights would be mounted on a 16" high soffet, two feet from the front wall and a bit inboard of the mains (which are wider than the soffet to clear the sides of a projection screen. (Possible complication: there's crown molding running through the middle of the soffet as a cradle for rope lighting. Speakers would be necessarily mounted above and then tilted down to clear the crown molding, so the mount would have to be 5-6 inches long.) The top middles would be ceiling mounted overhead and just forward of the main listening area. So, a few questions:

* Does this arrangement seem adequate for ATMOS? Any better ideas for placement of 4 speakers? (Hat tip to Rob H. at AVRant).

* Any ideas on mounting solutions? I'd like longish swiveling brackets for the fronts in order to mount them above the crown molding and tilt them down. The rear surrounds are HTM-200's and mounted like this but they're not long enough, since all they do is tilt down to rest on the wall. The top middles should attach directly to the ceiling, firing straight down. **Securely.**

* What about orientation? The fronts can be vertical or horizontal but vertical would probably look better and be easier to mount. (On the other hand, horizontal orientation could use a shorter mount since it could rest on the crown molding. The mounting point would be offset left-right though.) The tops would necessarily be horizontal (long axis left to right). Possible tweeter rotation like the Sierra center or does this not matter for the HTM-200?

Thanks!

[Blue Dude]

Hi. Any insight on my installation?

[Johnny_Mac_III]

Hi. Any insight on my installation?

Hey,

I like the speaker placement. It seems optimal. HTM 200 SEs are ideal in my opinion.

The Pinpoint AB100s are about as secure as you can get.

Mounting them horizontal with tweeter on the bottom angled toward seating position would be ideal since your nearest boundary interference would be the ceilng and soffit.

Hope this helps!

[Blue Dude]

The Pinpoints look secure enough but I was hoping to mount them flat to the ceiling, or at least keep the clearance to under an inch. Have you run across a bracket that will do this?

[davef]

The Pinpoints look secure enough but I was hoping to mount them flat to the ceiling, or at least keep the clearance to under an inch. Have you run across a bracket that will do this?

Do you mean flush mount the 200's to the ceiling with the drivers firing directly downward?

[Blue Dude]

Yes, that would be ideal.

[yesplease]

Not sure if you have attic access, but I'm currently installing 4 HTM-200s as tops for atmos. The two inserts are not in the middle of the speaker, so I didn't trust flush mounting them on the ceiling because 3/4 of the weight would essentially be functioning as a lever. I'm sure they would be just fine, but I'm a big fan of overkill.

I added 2 hanger bolts at the same distance from the edge as the top inserts. I didn't want to penetrate the back of the speaker, so I only drilled 1/2" deep and put the screws in .43" deep. I used 2 threaded rods for the inserts (which for some reason are M6 not 1/4-20 on all 4 speakers).

On another note, my initial impression of adding the tops (TF/TR) in my 5.2.4 is amazing! Sound all around and I don't miss the rears one bit. It's like going from 2.1 to 5.1. The dolby upmixer is also phenomenal.

They blend perfectly with the RAAL towers and horizon. IMHO, they are excellent atmos speakers.

http://imgur.com/a/uw095

[merrymaid520]

Not sure if you have attic access, but I'm currently installing 4 HTM-200s as tops for atmos. The two inserts are not in the middle, so I didn't trust flush mounting them on the ceiling because 3/4 of the weight would essentially be functioning as a lever. I'm sure they would be just fine, but I'm a big fan of overkill.

I added 2 hanger bolts at the same distance from the edge as the top inserts. I also didn't want to penetrate the back of the speaker so I only drilled 1/2" deep and put the screws in .43" deep. I used 2 threaded rods for the inserts (which for some reason are M6 not 1/4-20 on all 4 speakers).

On another note, my initial impression of adding the tops (TF/TR) in my 5.2.4 is amazing! Sound all around and I don't miss the rears one bit. It's like going from 2.1 to 5.1. The dolby upmixer is also phenomenal.

They also blend perfectly with the RAAL towers and horizon. IMHO, they are excellent atoms speakers.

http://imgur.com/a/uw095

Nice work! I may be borrowing your idea when I build my dedicated room in the coming year or so.

[Blue Dude]

Interesting idea! I do have attic access and this looks like a real possibility.