Amp needed?

[villegasdv]

Hi Everyone,

Just recently got my new LCR speakers (3 x CMT - 340)! I know these speakers are very efficient, but somehow I feel like they can use a bit more juice. I currently have a Yamaha RX-V665 which is rated at 90 watts .9% THD 1k Hz, but we all know it's doing much less than that with all channels driven.

I don't listen at reference levels, but I do like watching movies at high volumes, higher than what most people listen to. I noticed that the LCR speakers needs a bit more punch, also considering an LV12R to help this area :-). I also notice that the speakers don't sound as clean and have a bit of distortion, especially the center channel, when I raise the volume up.

I'm considering something like the Emotiva xpa-5. Any thoughts on this? Do you think the amp would help in the areas I listed above?

[Gov]

Complete waste of money in my opinion. The 340's can get insanely loud with very little juice. Save your money and use it to buy a subwoofer.

[villegasdv]

Complete waste of money in my opinion. The 340's can get insanely loud with very little juice. Save your money and use it to buy a subwoofer.

Hmm. So you think the sub would make that difference I'm looking for. :-) Currently I have a Polk PSW505, maybe I've just outgrown that sub.

I wonder what can be causing the slight distortion I hear at high volumes.

The other option is upgrading my receiver to a newer version with more watts (> 125). My existing AV doesn't have 4k so I'm getting close to the point where I need to upgrade. Decisions. Decisions.

[davef]

Are you running the 340's full range or with an 80Hz high pass filter (crossover)?

[Johnny_Mac_III]

Hmm. So you think the sub would make that difference I'm looking for. :-) Currently I have a Polk PSW505, maybe I've just outgrown that sub.

I wonder what can be causing the slight distortion I hear at high volumes.

The other option is upgrading my receiver to a newer version with more watts (> 125). My existing AV doesn't have 4k so I'm getting close to the point where I need to upgrade. Decisions. Decisions.

Sometimes, (and I'm willing to bet in this situation) a sign of speakers not sounding loud enough is in fact very low distortion. And on the other side, sometimes we confuse something being way too loud with something that is actually just way too distorted.

I would definitely go with a LV12r. In fact, I am using a single LV12r with with my 340 SE LCR, HTM 200 SE 7.1 setup. The LV12r blends very well with with the 340s. I've measured the 340s and distortion is very low at 10 feet away at reference levels. Same with the LV12r (although closer at 6ft behind PLP). I have a 13x18x8 room and with a single LV12r I don't even hit 1% distortion until 20hz. So, the 340s are definitely not the root of the distortion you are hearing. However, I am using best practices setting them up by keeping them at least 1-2 feet from any wall boundary, keeping the center higher than 18 inches from the floor, and the front baffle at the edge of the entertainment center.

If I were you, I would get the LV12r and then I would upgrade or add surrounds by getting the HTM-200s with that extra money you would have spent on the XPA-5.

However, the LV12r might be another adjustment for you as the boom boom will be gone. You will hear tight punchy low distorted bass. I came from the BIC F12. At first I thought I had a bad sub, because I couldn't hear the boom boom. It lead me to get a calibrated UMIK-1 to measure it. Low and behold I had low distortion and usable bass down to 17 hz :cool:. Now after hearing what bass is supposed to sound like, there is no going back haha.

[villegasdv]

Are you running the 340's full range or with an 80Hz high pass filter (crossover)?

I'm running them as Small with an 80Hz crossover.

[villegasdv]

Thanks for the info! Good to hear that the lv12r is a good sub. My Polk sub probably doesn't compare to that one. :-)

As far as surrounds, due to room configuration (open concept) the only option I had was ceiling speakers. I currently have a pair of Niles DS7FX. I wish I could do normal satellites, but unfortunately, I can't.


Sometimes, (and I'm willing to bet in this situation) a sign of speakers not sounding loud enough is in fact very low distortion. And on the other side, sometimes we confuse something being way too loud with something that is actually just way too distorted.

I would definitely go with a LV12r. In fact, I am using a single LV12r with with my 340 SE LCR, HTM 200 SE 7.1 setup. The LV12r blends very well with with the 340s. I've measured the 340s and distortion is very low at 10 feet away at reference levels. Same with the LV12r (although closer at 6ft behind PLP). I have a 13x18x8 room and with a single LV12r I don't even hit 1% distortion until 20hz. So, the 340s are definitely not the root of the distortion you are hearing. However, I am using best practices setting them up by keeping them at least 1-2 feet from any wall boundary, keeping the center higher than 18 inches from the floor, and the front baffle at the edge of the entertainment center.

If I were you, I would get the LV12r and then I would upgrade or add surrounds by getting the HTM-200s with that extra money you would have spent on the XPA-5.

However, the LV12r might be another adjustment for you as the boom boom will be gone. You will hear tight punchy low distorted bass. I came from the BIC F12. At first I thought I had a bad sub, because I couldn't hear the boom boom. It lead me to get a calibrated UMIK-1 to measure it. Low and behold I had low distortion and usable bass down to 17 hz :cool:. Now after hearing what bass is supposed to sound like, there is no going back haha.

[davef]

I'm running them as Small with an 80Hz crossover.

Since you already doing this, more power might be helpful if you are indeed hearing distortion that is coming from the receiver reaching its limits (clipping)... When listening at this same volume level, do you hear this same distortion from all sources, or just certain movies? Keep in mind that with speakers like the 340's, you will hear flaws in the source material that often get masked by other speakers.

[villegasdv]

It's with all sources. I normally watch games at around -16db on the receiver volume and movies even louder. Sometimes even hitting -8 or so when people come over, so it might just be that I need more power.

Funny you mention about hearing things I didn't before. Watching football games I can hear some mics that are close to people clapping and when wind hits it. I can even tell when they turn off that source. Crazy! Didn't hear all that before. :-)


Since you already doing this, more power might be helpful if you are indeed hearing distortion that is coming from the receiver reaching its limits (clipping)... When listening at this same volume level, do you hear this same distortion from all sources, or just certain movies? Keep in mind that with speakers like the 340's, you will hear flaws in the source material that often get masked by other speakers.

[davef]

It's with all sources. I normally watch games at around -16db on the receiver volume and movies even louder. Sometimes even hitting -8 or so when people come over, so it might just be that I need more power.

Funny you mention about hearing things I didn't before. Watching football games I can hear some mics that are close to people clapping and when wind hits it. I can even tell when they turn off that source. Crazy! Didn't hear all that before. :-)

How far back are you sitting from the front speakers?

[villegasdv]

About 11-12 ft.


How far back are you sitting from the front speakers?

[Johnny_Mac_III]

Thanks for the info! Good to hear that the lv12r is a good sub. My Polk sub probably doesn't compare to that one. :-)

As far as surrounds, due to room configuration (open concept) the only option I had was ceiling speakers. I currently have a pair of Niles DS7FX. I wish I could do normal satellites, but unfortunately, I can't.

Nice! Those are the ones that can pivot, right? I bet they sound just fine. Then I say with the extra $250 throw in a couple acoustic treatments from GIK acoustics ;)

[davef]

About 11-12 ft.

Assuming your receiver is calibrated such that volume level 0 = 85dB average (from one speaker) at your listening position, you mentioned that you listen at -8dB so that you are actually listening at an average volume level of 77dB. At 77dB average (one speaker), and accounting for 20dB peaks in home theater, at your distance you will need a clean 70 watts into each speaker. Assuming your receiver can deliver 80% of rated power with all channels driven, you are at the borderline of amplifier clipping such that anything louder than this, and you will hear distortion or if your receiver isn't capable of delivering 80% of rated power you will definitely clip the receiver.

More power is something to consider...

[villegasdv]

Nice! Those are the ones that can pivot, right? I bet they sound just fine. Then I say with the extra $250 throw in a couple acoustic treatments from GIK acoustics ;)

Yea, these pivot, which is awesome since I can improve the 'god-like' voice from above and make it sound more natural and come from the sides/rears. Still not as good as normal satellites, but since I have to do in-ceiling, this is the best I could come up with. :-)

[villegasdv]

Assuming your receiver is calibrated such that volume level 0 = 85dB average (from one speaker) at your listening position, you mentioned that you listen at -8dB so that you are actually listening at an average volume level of 77dB. At 77dB average (one speaker), and accounting for 20dB peaks in home theater, at your distance you will need a clean 70 watts into each speaker. Assuming your receiver can deliver 80% of rated power with all channels driven, you are at the borderline of amplifier clipping such that anything louder than this, and you will hear distortion or if your receiver isn't capable of delivering 80% of rated power you will definitely clip the receiver.

More power is something to consider...

Thanks for the info! I did an exact measure yesterday and the distance from the speakers to my ears is actually about 12.5 ft. So I think you're right and power is something to consider with that distance. I've been considering it for a while, so I might start looking into an amp especially since my receiver does have pre-outs.

[Mag_Neato]

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/5000.html

Here's one good solution, but if you want to spend more and think you will need the Emotiva's 200HP per channel, go for it.

Just a side note: The XPA-5 lists Storage Capacitance as 60,000uF. I assume that is TOTAL. The Outlaw lists it as each channel having (4) 6,800uF caps. With 5 channels that's 136,000uF of TOTAL filter capacitance. Substantial difference.

[villegasdv]

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/5000.html

Here's one good solution, but if you want to spend more and think you will need the Emotiva's 200HP per channel, go for it.

Just a side note: The XPA-5 lists Storage Capacitance as 60,000uF. I assume that is TOTAL. The Outlaw lists it as each channel having (4) 6,800uF caps. With 5 channels that's 136,000uF of TOTAL filter capacitance. Substantial difference.

This is a very good find! I'll definitely look into this one. I doubt I'll need the 200 watts per channel.