Help an imminent new tower owner

[Hogwild]

I've been lurking for awhile and am about to pull the trigger on a pair of Sierra towers and horizon cc. My question is more about components I will be pairing this with. This is my first real audio setup to ever own. I've always wanted one but never had the funds.

I will only be running it in 3.1 for now as the current house won't allow any different. And I'm thinking about paring the towers and horizon with the following:

Hsu research vtf-15h mk2 sub
Yamaha rx-a850 or Marantz sr 5010 receiver
Possibly the outlaw model 5000 5 channel amp.

The system will be used in a 16x20 room and will split music and HT duty 50/50

Do you guys foresee any general limitations with these components that I've chosen? I'm definitely a newb at all this but have been doing quite a bit of research in the last several weeks. Thanks in advance.

Btw, to any current owners with the satin black bamboo finish, I would love to see some high res images, so shoot me a p.m.

[Beave]

I'd say hold off on the Outlaw 5 channel amp. You may not need that much power; the AVR might be sufficient, depending on your listening levels. Just go with the AVR first, and if you find you like to crank it up to the point it's straining, then add the external amp.

If you save money by not getting the external amp and that money burns a hole in your pocket, use it to get a second subwoofer.

As for the AVR selection, both are nice. But keep in mind that Marantz AVRs are basically Denons in a nicer chassis - and at a higher price. You can get a Denon AVR-X4100w from Amazon right now for $799, if that one fits your needs.

[Hogwild]

Thanks for the advice Beave. Only reason for choosing a newer model was because it has the newer cdhp standard and I was trying to future proof as much as possible. I did wonder if I would need it in the receiver's lifetime though.

[natetg57]

I would suggest that you consider Rythmik subs if you haven't already. Rythmik is known for having a very tight, accurate sound that will blend very well with your towers. They also have many adjustments that could help it to sound it's best in your room.

[FirstReflect]

First off, congratulations on setting up your first, dedicated sound system for yourself! And you're going "whole hog", too! No "working your way up" for you ;)

No need for a separate amplifier. The Sierra Towers and Horizon can easily be powered by a nice AV Receiver.

And speaking of an AV Receiver, I am highly recommending Denon & Marantz this year. I have no particular loyalty to Denon & Marantz. AVR manufacturers tend to leapfrog one another from year to year. But this particular year, Denon & Marantz are really offering a killer feature set and extremely competitive prices. So they happen to be the brands to beat in 2015 in my opinion. Like I say, that could change in a year or two. But you're buying now, so might as well go with the current status of things!

I wrote up a pretty detailed article over at AVRant.com if you'd like to delve deeper into my reasoning :)

http://www.avrant.com/a-guide-for-future-proof-bang-for-buck-av-receivers/

On the subwoofer tip, is your room enclosed? Or do you have permanent openings to other parts of your house?

If it's enclosed, then you absolutely do not need the INSANE output capabilities of the VTF-15H Mk.2. It's a great subwoofer, but it's value is in being able to get ridiculously loud. And you just don't need that in a 2500-3000 cubic foot space. If your room is enclosed, then you are squarely in a "medium" sized room as far a subwoofer output ratings go.

On the other hand, if the 16 x 20 you mentioned is just your "theater area", and it's actually open to a much larger space via permanent openings of some sort, then you do need to consider the entire volume of air, at which point, if this is a "great room" or open to a hallway or something, you can very quickly get up to a cubic volume of air that WOULD require the output capabilities of something like a VTF-15H MK.2.

Now, either way, your goal should be to have more than one subwoofer. Either two or four - even numbers are good :)

With deep bass, the wavelengths are so long that they exceed the dimensions of your room. As such, you are NEVER hearing direct sound - only reflected sound. And our ears are not far enough apart to triangulate where deep bass is coming from. We use the harmonics at higher frequencies to clue us in to where the bass came from.

The upshot of all of this is that "full range" speakers should never be the goal unless you're in a huge space where the deep bass sound waves no longer exceed the dimensions of the room. Instead, what you want is to use multiple subwoofers that are positioned across the room from one another. Doing so allows the subwoofers to act as "active" bass traps for one another.

Normally, the bass sound waves fire across the room, reflect off of the wall on the far side, and come back the way they came where they double up and cancel out themselves! These peaks and nulls happen at various spots throughout your room. So from seat to seat, you get different bass response.

When you use only one subwoofer, or you set your speakers to "large" or "full range", there's really no way to fix these uneven bass issues. The room is a part of your sound system. And those bass sound waves are going to reflect and bounce around your room before they ever reach your ears.

But when you have one subwoofer on one side of the room, and a second subwoofer on the opposite side of the room across from it, now when the sound wave from either sub goes across the room, the subwoofer on the opposite side "catches" it, and prevents that "reflecting back over itself" effect from happening. The result is much more uniform and even bass throughout your room.

The key is to have the subwoofers across the room from one another. So the middle of the front wall and the middle of the back wall, or the middle of the left wall and the middle of the right wall. Or diagonally opposite corners. Or if you put one subwoofer on your front wall 3 feet in from the right side wall, put the second subwoofer on the back wall 3 feet in from the left side wall. The two subs should always "mirror" each other in this way. And if you can use four subwoofers - one at the mid-point of each of the four walls, or one in each corner - that's even better! Now you've eliminated the standing waves and many of the peaks and dips in all dimensions of your room.

The audible effect is massive. It makes a tremendous difference that puts all other "upgrades" or "tweaks" to shame. So getting at least two subwoofers should be a top priority.

Like I say, if your room is enclosed, you "only" need subwoofers that can handle a "medium" sized room. The HSU VTF-2 would be entirely up to that task, as would the SVS PB-1000 or SB-2000, or the Rythmik F12. So you have lots of good options :)

I hope that's of some help!

- Rob H. - AV Rant Podcast Co-host

[Hogwild]

Wow!! Thanks for the detailed response firstreflect. I was actually reading your setup advice in another thread and hope to implement the steps you walked through with that gentleman when I get my towers.

And really nice piece of writing in your articles. I enjoyed the read there and in your post above. You make it easier for guys like me to understand.

I was actually leaning Marantz just based on some listening I had done with other systems but didn't realize that about dts x, so unless things change with Yamaha in the next couple of months, it looks like I will go that route. It sounds like you and Beave think the SR 5010 is enough of a machine to drive this system which is encouraging.

As far as the sub goes, I do have open space. There is an opening into the kitchen directly behind the couch and another small entryway leading to the front door to the left of it. So based on your explanation it does sound like I would need the larger sub. However, if what you are saying is true, it sounds like I could possibly take part of the money saved from not buying an amp, and put it toward a 2nd sub in the near future.

Thanks again...really good stuff.

[FirstReflect]

You're most welcome! And thanks for the kind words! My only desire is for everyone who has even a passing interest in home theater and audio to get the very best setup they can. I think everyone deserves it! But it isn't just about buying good gear - it certainly isn't about price tags! It's about buying gear that performs its job really well, but then optimally setting up that gear while realizing that the biggest component of your system is the room itself! And it really is a system - the sum can be greater than or less than the sum of its parts. So finding that combination of room, gear, placement, and setup is the ticket to maximizing the performance. The good news is, when you look at the big picture like that, you can often end up spending LESS than if you just try to brute force your way to great sound purely by spending big bucks on just the gear!

If you're getting close to, say, doubling the total volume of air since your theater area is open to other parts of the house, then yes, it's time to look at subwoofers that can contend with at least a "Large" room (subwoofer ratings-wise) if not an "extreme" room (larger than 5500 cubic feet).

Given what HSU has recently done with their pricing, they are most certainly a top contender when you need high levels of output. The VTF-3 MK.5 HP, for example, ends up being about $900 after shipping, but it has output levels to rival an SVS Plus Series model or a Rythmik FVX15, or a ported 15" Power Sound Audio sub. All of those are more than $1000, so HSU is undercutting everybody out there when it comes to super high output options. The VTF-15H Mk.2 that was brought up earlier will rival any SVS Ultra Series, the Rythmik FV15HP or some of the more powerful PSA options. And once again, they're undercutting everybody on price.

Please keep in mind though that ALL of these high output options are physically HUGE! Please, please, please build yourself a model based on the dimensions listed on the website. Just a cardboard box so that you can really get a sense of just how huge these subwoofers are! Being able to actually position them and live with them in your room is kind of a big deal!

For that reason, I always like to remind people about SVS' cylinder options. The PC12-Plus or PC13-Ultra deliver the same output and extension as their box counterparts, but they are only 16.5" in diameter; they make up for the box size by being tall. I can tell you first hand, it's a lot easier to brush past a tall, velour-covered cylinder than a 2 foot cube! So if floor space is any sort of consideration, don't ignore the cylinder options :)

Looking forward to hearing how your system progresses. Best of luck!

- Rob H. - AV Rant Podcast Co-host