How to spend $3,000? or... I've got speaker wiring, but no speakers.

[rmd]

Greetings,
I've spent the last month or so reading as much as time would allow, and I'm starting to get a bit dizzy. And now that the drywall is going up on our garage conversion, I could use some advice. First, the vitals:

Project
19'x19'x10' garage conversion to a media/band/multi purpose room with a 65"-70" TV. Viewing/Listening will be 10' away.

Usage
60% TV/Movies, 40% Music

Expectations
Since our current AV system is a 40" TV with soundbar, and music is delivered through an iPod/SoundDock combo, I'm assuming whatever we get will be a huge upgrade.

Music/Volume
Rock/Jazz/Classical. Volume can get loud, but not 'call the cops' loud.

Budget
$3,000

What I'm looking for
Front only system. I'll deal with surrounds later.

What's up in my head
Is $3,000 enough? Is it too much? Am I over-compensating? Am I under-compensating?

Scenario #1 - RAAL Towers only ($2,800).
My gut (somewhat colored by this forum) is telling me that this is the way to go. Get Dave's best and figure the out the rest (sub/s and center) later. Or never, 'cause the towers will be enough.

Scenario #2 - Sierra 2's across the front (LCR), and a LVR12 sub ($2,900)
This scenario is very appealing. And even though it's complete, it's not the towers.

Scenario #3 - Towers (no RAAL), Sierra 1 center, Rythmik LVR12 Sub ($3,100).
I'm starting to go over budget and it feels like I'm compromising by not getting the RAALs. Not a great psychological combo. Especially since it's probably NOT compromising at all.

Scenario #4 and #5 - RAAL Towers with either a LVR12 sub ($3,400) or Sierra 2 center ($3,500)
I'm approaching 20% over budget, which wouldn't be the end of the world if I wasn't paying for EVERYTHING else (new garage door, framing, electrical, drywall, flooring, painting, TV, receiver) right now. So if either one of these scenarios are "change my lifers" I can wait for the gypsum dust to settle and do it down the road.

Last note: I'm So Cal, so (pending appointment approval) I'll be able to sound test before I buy.

Thanks in advance for all the help

r

[Todd WI]

Hey rmd,

I was in a similar quandary a couple of months ago. I have a similar sized room, albeit open to other areas, with about a 10’ listening distance and a 65” TV.

I ended up going with 3 S-2s with dual subs (eventually). Scenario #1 looks good, but the total cost will be much higher when/if you add a horizon center and a sub or two. Given unlimited funds I would have went with the towers. The price difference between the towers and S-2s was almost equal the cost of the dual subs. That’s how I justified “settling” with the S-2s, that I'd be able to afford the dual subs.

The downside to Scenario #2 is the total cost will be much higher if you eventually decide you should have gone with the towers…

I definitely prefer having a sub for movies. Right now I’m limping along with a $300 Klipsch hand-me-down and it adds significantly to the experience. I doubt I’d be happy with towers and no sub for movies.

The S-2s sound great, especially for music. They aren’t slouches when it comes to TV/movies either. The center S-2 yields very clear dialog, so much so that I tend to find myself listening to TV/Movies at lower volumes. My previous center was not a perfect match to my mains, and I never really noticed a mismatch. But now there are times in movies where I definitely notice that the S-2s are perfectly matched. It’s hard to explain, but quite magical when it happens.

I doubt volume will be an issue with your listening distances and room size, unless you are shooting for concert level volumes. I don’t normally play them particularly loud, usually -15 for movies. I’ve played the S-2s for short periods at levels that I find uncomfortable and probably literally deafening with my 140W AVR and they still sounded good to me.

Going in for a listen is a great idea!

Todd

[Johnny_Mac_III]

Greetings,
I've spent the last month or so reading as much as time would allow, and I'm starting to get a bit dizzy. And now that the drywall is going up on our garage conversion, I could use some advice. First, the vitals:

Project
19'x19'x10' garage conversion to a media/band/multi purpose room with a 65"-70" TV. Viewing/Listening will be 10' away.

Usage
60% TV/Movies, 40% Music

Expectations
Since our current AV system is a 40" TV with soundbar, and music is delivered through an iPod/SoundDock combo, I'm assuming whatever we get will be a huge upgrade.

Music/Volume
Rock/Jazz/Classical. Volume can get loud, but not 'call the cops' loud.

Budget
$3,000

What I'm looking for
Front only system. I'll deal with surrounds later.

What's up in my head
Is $3,000 enough? Is it too much? Am I over-compensating? Am I under-compensating?

Scenario #1 - RAAL Towers only ($2,800).
My gut (somewhat colored by this forum) is telling me that this is the way to go. Get Dave's best and figure the out the rest (sub/s and center) later. Or never, 'cause the towers will be enough.

Scenario #2 - Sierra 2's across the front (LCR), and a LVR12 sub ($2,900)
This scenario is very appealing. And even though it's complete, it's not the towers.

Scenario #3 - Towers (no RAAL), Sierra 1 center, Rythmik LVR12 Sub ($3,100).
I'm starting to go over budget and it feels like I'm compromising by not getting the RAALs. Not a great psychological combo. Especially since it's probably NOT compromising at all.

Scenario #4 and #5 - RAAL Towers with either a LVR12 sub ($3,400) or Sierra 2 center ($3,500)
I'm approaching 20% over budget, which wouldn't be the end of the world if I wasn't paying for EVERYTHING else (new garage door, framing, electrical, drywall, flooring, painting, TV, receiver) right now. So if either one of these scenarios are "change my lifers" I can wait for the gypsum dust to settle and do it down the road.

Last note: I'm So Cal, so (pending appointment approval) I'll be able to sound test before I buy.

Thanks in advance for all the help

r

It's fun shopping, man :) I was in the same position as you a couple of months ago with a $3000 budget.

I noticed that you didn't mention having an AVR or prepro/amp combo. Is this something that you have a separate budget for or do you already own? If not, you should be looking to add a good receiver into your budget.

Although you said that you are only looking to get your fronts right now, I would at least be looking to the future as to how much you will be budgeting for surrounds (especially if you want an absolutely matched timbre all the way around). With that being said, I read that Dave uses 170's as surrounds for the Sierra 2 LCR in the demo room, but I have no way to confirm that. I would simply ask him if you went with the Sierra 2s what we he recommend you go with for surrounds. And better yet, like you said, go check it out yourself :)

One other thing that I would consider is getting two subs instead of one. Two subs will even out your bass response and if properly placed and make that bass sound much tighter and even for all seating positions in the theater.

Since this is going to be a dedicated room, I would also look to add room treatments. You can read up on this and go the DIY route for cheaper or go with GIK acoustics.

As I said, I was in your position with a $3k budget. This is what I went with for my living room home theater:

$1500 -- CMT-340 se fronts (with stands) and center with HTM-200 se surrounds and surround backs.

$650 -- Denon X4000 AVR

$1100 -- 2 Rythmik LV12Rs

Anyway, just trying to give you a different prospective. Have fun shopping :) Let us know what you get!

[curtis]

rmd....If it is any closer, I'm in Manhattan Beach if you want to have a listen to a Sierra-2 LCR setup with a Rythmik F15HP in a 14x18 room.

[FirstReflect]

Very glad to see that other forum members here have already pointed out the importance of getting at least two subwoofers :)

That was my first thought! Unfortunately, in a square room, you're going to have standing waves at the same frequencies in two directions in your room. Four subwoofers would actually be ideal in such a situation - one subwoofer placed at the mid-point of each wall. But that becomes impractically expensive. So two subwoofers placed in diagonally opposite corners is going to be your best option for the time being.

Given the volume of air in your room, you should be quite alright with a pair of Rythmik LV12R subwoofers in terms of sheer output capability. Since they're on sale right now and available from Ascend along with the rest of your order, they're certainly a convenient and great sounding choice.

You could also opt for the Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12 subwoofer. A pair comes in at $1100 with free shipping as they, too, are on sale right now.

LINK: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/ultra.html

Outlaw's subs are designed by HSU, in case you were wondering about their pedigree ;)

I am assuming you are going to have more than one seat in this theater, so having two subwoofer placed across the room from one another is very important. This is the only way to achieve more uniform bass response from seat to seat. A lone subwoofer will unavoidably create some large peaks and nulls at certain locations at certain frequencies in any given room. If you only have one seat, it is possible to play with the locations of the seat and the lone subwoofer until the seat is not positioned right where any large nulls or peaks are happening. But when you have more than one seat, it's almost a certainty that one of the seats to the left or right of the primary seat will end up in a giant null or peak. Dual subwoofers placed across the room from one another are able to act as active bass traps for one another. Rather than the resonant frequencies travelling across the room and reflecting back the way they came - causing the double ups and cancelling that creates those giant peaks and nulls - the second subwoofer on the opposite side of the room "catches" those sound waves and cancels them out at the wall. So in this way, you can eliminate those pesky standing waves ;) And that means MUCH better bass for EVERY seat, not just one.

Once you have your biggest bass problems sorted out by using two subwoofers, now you have the freedom to cross your speakers over to those subwoofers at just about any frequency you'd like. There is no sense in having your speakers play low enough that they create giant peaks and nulls of their own. So even if the speakers themselves are capable of playing lower, it is always a good idea to start with an 80Hz crossover for all speakers, and only adjust that crossover slightly higher or lower if needed in order to obtain the very best and most seamless blend possible between all of the speakers and the dual subwoofers. It should end up being genuinely impossible to tell where the speakers "end" and the subwoofers "begin". The point is to turn your two-way bookshelf speakers into 3-way full-range speakers, but without the handcuffs of having the deep bass coming from the same cabinets!

So start with the dual subs, spending a little over $1000 on the pair. If you then opt for the three Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers, your total will be just shy of $3200.

Again, since I'm assuming you're going to have more than one seat, a Center speaker is fairly important. You want the dialogue to remain locked to the screen for everyone in the theater, not just the people sitting close enough to the middle that the stereo effect is able to create a very convincing "phantom" Center. For the people sitting in the side seats, the dialogue will "collapse" into the closest Front speaker if you don't have a Center.

So the three Sierra-2 plus a pair of subwoofers is 100% my recommendation here. Good news is, if those Towers RAAL are just too tempting for you, you could always add them in the future as your new Front L/R and move the pair of Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers to Surround duty ;)

I hope that's of some help. Enjoy your new sound system!

- Rob H. (AVRant.com Podcast co-host)

[Johnny_Mac_III]

Very glad to see that other forum members here have already pointed out the importance of getting at least two subwoofers :)

- Rob H. (AVRant.com Podcast co-host)

Can't expect anything less from a fellow AVRant podcast listener :)

[rmd]

It's fun shopping, man I was in the same position as you a couple of months ago with a $3000 budget.

I noticed that you didn't mention having an AVR or prepro/amp combo. Is this something that you have a separate budget for or do you already own? If not, you should be looking to add a good receiver into your budget.



AVR:
I been looking at the Yamaha RX-A1020 for AVR (right now $549 at Acces4Less). Will that be enough to power everything? I'm open to other suggestions in the $500-600 range, but I have to say, the AVR search has been WAY more confusing than the speaker search. Almost every model I've looked at has a bunch of great reviews, and then a handful that say it "It was great. Then it died. Then the replacement died." And so on.

Regarding the room:
Right now, the plan is to have the space be multi purpose (TV/Movies/Music, along with the kids rock/jazz band), not an actual dedicated theater.

At least, that's how I sold it in. :rolleyes:

That said, all of the recommendations you guys have given me (especially the double subs) are super helpful. And I'm sure the sound treatments will also help even out the live music.

And the towers are still calling my name. But in order to stay on budget, I'd have to go RAAL-less, and fill in the rest with a Sierra one, and only one sub.

Which (I'm gathering) won't cut it for that space.

r

[Johnny_Mac_III]

In your situation, because you stated that you will be concentrating on your fronts right now, if I had $600 to spend on an AVR I would get the Denon AVR-X4000. It has Audyssey XT32 :cool: and will drive everything with ease as would the Yamaha RX-A1020 if you wanted to go that route.

If you want to learn more about Audyssey you should go to AVrant.com and search for the Chris Kyriakakis Audyssey interview and give a listen. Rob and Tom do a great job asking Chris some good questions about Audyssey and Chris does a great job of explaining everything. It's definitely worth the listen and one of the major reasons I bought my x4000.

In my opinion as much as you talk about that RAAL tweeter you need to go for it, man. If you don't, I think you will be second guessing yourself. Don't get me wrong, even if you went RAAL-less I think you would be extemely happy and believe your system sounds amazing; but you might think to yourself, "how much amazinger ;) would it have been if I would have went with the RAALs?"

I would do what Rob suggested and go with the three Sierras 2s up front and the two subs. I think you would be very happy if you went that route.