Running Towers Full Range with dual Rythmiks

[merrymaid520]

Hello folks,
Its been a while since I've been around these parts. I have a bit of a dilemma and I am looking for some thoughts. Currently I have my Sierra Towers (RAAL) crossed over at 80hz along with my Dual 15" Rythmik subs. The Parasound P5 preamp does this then I use my Behringer EQ device to flatten the room response below 80hz.

Up until now, all is well! I love the sound, but the upgrade bug has bitten me......as Curtis already knows!

I am contemplating grabbing the Parasound JC2 BP which is one of the highest regarded preamps out there. The issue is it offers NO bass management meaning the Towers would have to be ran full range. This obviously complicates the room response. I know I would have to grab the inexpensive MiniDSP EQ device to incorporate the subs.

So my concerns are:
Running Towers full range - I lose headroom(overall output)
The subs would have to be crossed over very low, lets say 50hz or so. How hard will this be to get a decent in room response etc?

Anyone out there that has a similar setup where they run Towers full range with subs?

Thanks!
Brandon

[Mag_Neato]

I was going to make a smart ass comment about calling the MiniDSP EQ "inexpensive", until I googled the JC 2 Preamp and saw how much that thing costs. Yikes!!

Interesting that it offers no bass management. You could always incorporate a passive Hi/Low pass filter between the preamp/amp using RCA cords.

[merrymaid520]

I was going to make a smart ass comment about calling the MiniDSP EQ "inexpensive", until I googled the JC 2 Preamp and saw how much that thing costs. Yikes!!

Interesting that it offers no bass management. You could always incorporate a passive Hi/Low pass filter between the preamp/amp using RCA cords.

Ha! I can grab the JC2 used, no way I could swing it new! I thought about an external XO but Parasound (founder -Richard S.) recommends against it indicating it would degrade the signal. My thought process is if I am going to integrate a high end 2 ch pre, which supposedly provides a extremely clean and noise free signal, I would hate to add in a XO that messes with it (potentially).

[curtis]

The miniDSP 2x4, which is what you will need, is $105.

I say get it, and then test with your P5 (with bass management disengaged). The 2x4 will also do the bass EQ, so you won't need the Berhinger any longer...easier to use too.

If that works out well, then get the JC2 BP.

[merrymaid520]

The miniDSP 2x4, which is what you will need, is $105.

I say get it, and then test with your P5 (with bass management disengaged). The 2x4 will also do the bass EQ, so you won't need the Berhinger any longer...easier to use too.

If that works out well, then get the JC2 BP.

You read my mind! I had planned to do this mid week. Still waiting on my A21 amp to arrive! I grabbed a black one to replace my silver. The downside is running REW etc to find out what the lack of BM is doing. Its a major PITA. The easy part is flipping the switch on the back of the P5 to disable the XO:)

[Mag_Neato]

If all else fails look for an Outlaw Audio ICBM on the used market!

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649099871-outlaw_audio_icbm/

[merrymaid520]

Its sold:(

[merrymaid520]

This is what would work for me, if I decided to implement a external XO.......

http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd

It has better specs than the standard miniDSP

[N Boros]

A big problem with limiting your bass management is that you might introduce more anomalies that are hard or impossible to fix. This is at the expense of possibly getting better performance from using a dedicated preamp, which is possible, but my gut is telling me is likely very minimal if at all.

For example, what if you have a peak or a null at 40 Hz or 50 Hz, when you play your towers full range. As you move from one seat to the next, these anomolies are likely to change, maybe you have a peak or a null now at 60 Hz or 70 Hz. There is no way to fix this entirely with just EQ, except for in the best case scenario, for one seat. But you can't fix nulls with EQ. With your two subwoofers you can just cross the bass over above any of these issues (after running some bass sweeps to see where they occur) and let the subs deal with the lower frequencies. Since you have dual subwoofers you can place the subwoofers diagonally opposite of one another in the room (at midpoints of opposing walls will be best performance according to Harmon's research http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White%20Papers/multsubs.pdf ). Now the bass from the crossover and below will likely be very similar from one seat to the next. There may be still big peaks and dips, but since they are all close to the same in each seat, when you EQ to get a flat frequency response using the Behringer EQ, you can get that flat response in all seats.

Since you have caught the upgrade bug, have you looked into doing room treatments with diffusion and/or absorption panels? This will likely give you the biggest upgrade in performance of your sound that any other equipment you might add. The room imposes the biggest sound character you since you already have some top notch speakers.

After that, if you still have the upgrade bug, then maybe look into a receiver with Audyssey Multeq32 and SubEq. My hunch is that you will likely hear a bigger upgrade in sound, and that most people will all agree will lead you closer to getting a flatter and more accurate in room response, than with going with the preamp you suggest. The Sierra Towers are one of the easiest loads to drive if you look at the frequency vs. impedance plot, where external amplification is really not needed. In fact, the plot really is a thing of beauty. Dave has done exceptional work getting the impedance plot to look like it does, so that the speakers don't need external amplification to play to deafening levels with low priced equipment.

This should save you quite a bit of money over what you proposed and likely give you bigger results in terms of performance. With the extra money saved you can purchase more music to enjoy and this awesome system you have.

[Wanger 714]

Boris

I tried a P-7 and although its the next level down from the JC-2 I sent it back because it did not have any Audyssey. I settled with a Marantz 8801 instead. Oddly enough, I do not like what the Towers sound like ( on Music) while its being run through Auddyssey. I run it through EQ and set the equalizer up by hand. Much better... But I'm a rookie,

[Beave]

Looks like you've caught a serious case of audiophilia. In what sense is the JC2 an "upgrade" over what you have? Looks, yeah, I'll grant you that. Build quality? Yeah, probably that too. But sound quality? If anything, it appears to be a step backwards from what you have now. It appears you kind of know that, but you're falling down the rabbit hole of thinking the JC2 will be audibly better just because it costs so much and looks so nice, and because other audiophiles tell you how nice it is. Don't believe the hype. If the preamp you have now isn't introducing audible distortions, why spend so much money on one that loses features that actually DO make an audible difference?

[curtis]

I think Beave has articulated the situation the best, and I agree with him.

[Beave]

I think Beave has articulated the situation the best, and I agree with him.

Thanks Curtis. I also think N Boros made some excellent points in his post.

[Johnny_Mac_III]

I personally think that you would be disappointed. I think you would find that not having bass managment and getting the JC2 would actually sound like a downgrade in your case.

Equalizing those room modes above 80hz is where I would spend my money. Can the P5 do that? If not, use your pre-outs to connect something from MiniDSP that will. Also, if you don't have any room treatments I would talk to GIK Acoustics and treat your room. I think you would feel much happier about your purchases if you went that route.

I think I read somewhere in an interview Dave F said the 10 most important things in audio are:

1. Speakers
2. Speakers
3. Speakers
....
8. The Room
9. Speakers
10.everything else

At least it went something like that. :)

[merrymaid520]

Great feedback guys! I agree with N Boros and Beave. I think keeping a pre with bass management is crucial in my situation. The p5 does sound great, don't get me wrong! I have no desire to get something with audyssey etc being a separate 2ch preamp sounds better to me than even a high end receiver......believe me I've tried many. My Yamaha CX-A5000 is great for movies but for strictly 2ch listening, a seperate preamp is a noticeable improvement.

I do EQ my subs for a flat response but don't mess with anything higher. I also do not have the luxury of room treatments in my living room, ha!

[merrymaid520]

Boris

I tried a P-7 and although its the next level down from the JC-2 I sent it back because it did not have any Audyssey. I settled with a Marantz 8801 instead. Oddly enough, I do not like what the Towers sound like ( on Music) while its being run through Auddyssey. I run it through EQ and set the equalizer up by hand. Much better... But I'm a rookie,

The P7 is strictly an analog pre much like my P5 only with multi ch capability. All processing must be done via the source. The times when I have A/b'd receivers vs 2 ch preamps, the pres always come out on top.....better imaging, soundstage, clarity, etc. Again, I'm not a believer in room EQ above 100hz, so.....

[curtis]

Thanks Curtis. I also think N Boros made some excellent points in his post.
Yes he did!

[N Boros]

I do EQ my subs for a flat response but don't mess with anything higher. I also do not have the luxury of room treatments in my living room, ha!


Just last week a listener of AVRant wrote in with a detailed tutorial of very inexpensive absorpotion panels with any image you like on them for less than $200 total (for 6 panels). He chose to use movie posters, but I imagine you could just as easily use any decorative art in its place.

http://www.avrant.com/listener-advice-rob-w-on-movie-poster-absorption-panels/

Hopefully this will help. I plan in the near future to give it a go in my theater.

[merrymaid520]

Update regarding my preamp search;)

I've decided against trying the JC2 simply because of the lack of Bass management and sub outputs. It's just not worth it in my setup. I did however order a new P7! From the info I've read, it might be a slight step up over my current P5. I don't expect a big change, but I look forward to hearing it! The reviews and comments across the net on the P7 unanimously praise it as a quality preamp. My next project is a new DAC. I've got a Zdac now but am curious about DSD and up sampling. I have an ifi iDSD sitting here I need to try. I'm also looking at the Teac UD-501 or 503 that arrives in a few months.

Stay tuned....

[N Boros]

I hope you enjoy your new gear.