Help a New Forum Member Set Up a System That ROCKS [Archive]

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FirstReflect

01-16-2015, 02:51 PM

This is being copied from a conversation that started in The Tower Discussion Thread so as to avoid that thread being hijacked ;)

Hello to all
I am a newbie to this forum. I am seriously considering a set of Towers in the near future. Just would like to ask a few questions from you experts. I'm reaching retirement age, but one of the things that still work right on me is my ears...They work well enough to tell me I have taken steps backwards with our system....And I aim to remedy the screw-up..
A little history...Back a decade ago, right before they went dark,I purchased a Miller Kreisel system (5 B-1600 Book shelf's and 2 MX-70B SF Subs)and a Marantz amp( 7500 ). Had an old Panasonic CD player. I don't even remember the model... I was very pleased. It was a nice system for movies, but more importantly to me,it rocked. Watching video concerts was a pleasure. You could "feel it" . We used to invite a few couples over, sit around the system, have a few drinks,,,well sometimes,alot of them,and listen/watch a concert. (Jeff Beck, Styx, Pink Floyd etc) I decided to upgrade and purchased a Denon 4250 and an Oppo 103. Much to my surprise, when it's turned up... All the "Punch" went away. It just sounds like a really cheap system....Very muddled and ran togather.. Its a killer system for Movies, but for audio it stinks...We never have people over to rock out anymore. It would be embarrassing. I have been on AVS for months, listening to all the audiophiles tell me what "setting" to get back to my starting point. None of them worked. I have come to the conclusion that these 4 ohm M/Ks are just not working with this amp. I don't know how that old Marantz had more thump than this new one....but it did. I do know that my digital readout on my Furman always showed the old amp using a lot more current than the Denon.I sent the Denon back and they sent me a new one(AVS)...but the outcome was the same....
Ok, enough about that, my question is, anybody on here have a Emotivia XPR-5 hooked to a Denon 4250 and run to a pair of these Towers....I would be using my M/Ks as surrounds . I might use one for a center also..not sure about it. That's what I'm thinking...Ideas? Thank you for your time....Jeff

FirstReflect

01-16-2015, 02:52 PM

Welcome to the forum.

You have a lot going on there in your first post. So before I dive into anything, I have a couple of questions for you that will let us know how best to proceed with attempting to get you to a place where you are happy with the sound you are hearing:

1) How open are you to adhering to a slow, step-by-step process?

It's ok if you're someone who "just wants things to work". Not everyone has the time or the inclination to go through what is often a slow and tedious process. If you know right away that you won't have the patience for that, then we won't worry about it :)

2) Is the goal you have in mind to hear what you were already used to previously, or are you open to hearing accurate sound reproduction - perhaps for the first time?

Again, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer here. Very often, people have become accustomed to things sounding a certain way. To them, that is "right". Depending on your openness to question 1, I can tell you how to get to accurate sound reproduction, but that is often a jarring experience if it is not what you were used to.

3) Are you open to possibly thinking about how a sound reproduction system works, even if that might be different from what you've already gotten used to?

The toughest thing for many people to overcome is getting away from thinking of one component being solely responsible for some aspect of the sound. In truth, it really is a system. But that way of thinking doesn't "click" for everybody. And that's ok.

My goal here is for you to be happy with what you're hearing. But what will make you happy might not line up with what I know how to do. And the way I approach setting up an audio system might not jibe with the way you're comfortable doing it. My particular method takes patience, trial & error, and attention to detail. And at the end of it, your sound will be as accurate and transparent to the recording as possible within whatever limitations you might have. For some people, that's exactly what they want. But for other people, that sounds like a tedious nightmare! So I shall leave it to you, and respond according to how you answer my three questions above.

Unfortunately, I must warn everyone reading this that my time is very limited at the moment. So my replies might only appear in dribs and drabs. So hopefully, others will also chime in to try and help you, Jeff. But I will start by saying: IF you are open to going through a whole process (and it is perfectly ok if you aren't), then I would try to dissuade you from looking to make any purchases right away. Let us figure out what you are already working with, go through the process to get your existing equipment sounding as good as it can, and only make a purchase if it is necessary. Like I say, my method takes patience ;)

- Rob H.

FirstReflect

01-16-2015, 02:57 PM

Hi Rob,and thank you .

I am very willing to try a little experimentation. I have tried a little myself, but who knows if I was perfect in my approach. I bought a Oppo 105 and tried the DAC out, bypassing my Amp (Marantz) first. . I thought that was Flat. I don't like flat. Flat might be accurate, but to me it sounds blah..I sent it back and purchased a 103..On the other hand I'm not a big Klipsh fan...they are too much the other way...Like really bright. I want clarity, imaging, depth and thump. I would like it to sound like the band is in the room WITH me and I can feel their music "in me"..That's kind of weird to explain. I grew up running around with rock bands when I was a kid, so I guess I’m spoiled.To me, thats what I call accurate.I will buy an album and not listen to it because its not mixed well. Its dead. Thats a shame, as I think Im trying to listen to the system...instead of the music...But thats how I am. And I'm not set on the sound I 'Had". In fact, my old Hafler 500, B&O Turntable, 3DBX III Impact Restorer, with Polk 1B's Towers was my favorite system I've ever owned, but it was 2 channel. I still have the DBX and the B&O

I would very mush appreciate your guidance. And I'm set to upgrade if need. When do we begin?

...

FirstReflect

01-16-2015, 02:58 PM

If I'm not mistaken...Dave had a hand in developing those B-1600's.

- Curtis

FirstReflect

01-16-2015, 02:59 PM

Wanger 714,

I agree with you flat is not always the best sounding, I agree with you as well on how many recordings are done so bad!

Here is my 2 cents on what is most important in good sound.... in order of importance... Just one person's take....

#1 The recording itself
#2 Room acoustics
#3 Speakers
#4 all the rest

Also I think Dave said it before, every person ears and height are different which play into how we perceive sound.

...

FirstReflect

01-16-2015, 09:40 PM

Alrighty.

So to get started, it will be easiest to know what we are working with.

The first thing we need to know about is your room. A diagram and/or pictures would be great. But if you cannot or do not want to provide those, we need to know the dimensions of your room, where the TV is located, where the seats are located, where any doors or permanent openings are located, and whether or not you are open to moving some of the speakers around if recommended.

The second thing we will do is place your two subwoofers as close to ideally as possible. The idea is to create as even and uniform a distribution of bass as possible. In a rectangular room, we accomplish this by having the two subwoofers across the room from one another - ideally at the center of two opposing walls (front wall and back wall, or the two side walls) or failing that, diagonally across the room from one another (such as in two diagonally opposite corners.

Once we have the two subwoofers located as best as possible, we will want to position the speakers for the best possible imaging. Pictures and diagrams of your room will be a big, big help here if you can provide them.

After that, I want to confirm the AV Receiver you are using. I am guessing that you actually meant the AVR-4520CI, which is a heck of a good AV Receiver.

If it is the AVR-4520CI, then it will likely be easiest to do a full factory reset so that it is as though it is a brand new unit so that we can start from scratch.

We will then make sure that in the settings, the AVR-4520CI has its impedance set to 8 ohms, not 6 ohms or 4 ohms. Even though this goes against what it says in the manual, any setting other than 8 ohms completely chokes off the available power that the AVR-4520CI can provide. You will want to monitor whether the AVR-4520CI gets extremely hot for the first little while, but it should have no difficulty powering your M&K speakers. All AV Receivers should always be set to their highest impedance setting if they offer one, never the low 4 ohm setting. It is nothing but a choke on the power.

Once that critical setting is double checked, we will play some bass sweeps through the subwoofers and ONLY the subwoofers. The other speakers won't even be plugged in at this point. The goal is to hear no gigantic dips in the bass sweeps that would indicate sound wave cancellation, and for the bass sweeps to also sound as uniform as possible from seat to seat. If there are gigantic dips at any frequencies in the sweeps at any of the seats you care about, we will have to do some trial and error to better position your two subwoofers relative to one another and the seating locations so as to eliminate those issues.

Once the bass is in good order (meaning free of gigantic dips and uniform from seat to seat - not necessarily perfectly linear, which won't happen without some EQ), we will connect your speakers to the AVR-4520CI.

We will then go through the process of running Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT, which is an excellent auto-setup and EQ program...when used carefully and properly!

We will make sure to turn on the Dynamic EQ setting within Audyssey, but make sure to turn off the Dynamic Volume setting.

We will manually adjust the speaker size setting (ALL speakers should always be set to "small", and the subwoofers should always be set to "LFE", not "LFE + Mains"). And we will adjust the crossover frequencies as necessary. Your speakers can play low enough to cross over nicely at 80Hz, so we will use the 80Hz setting for all of your speakers.

Later, you can experiment with both the "Audyssey" and "Audyssey Flat" equalizer settings.

We can then go through each of your source devices one at a time to make sure they are outputting their signals in the best way possible. We can then adjust each input on the AVR-4520CI to make sure the correct decoding program and speaker settings are being used for each and every source.

From there, we can adjust to your personal taste. We can use the manual equalizer instead of Audyssey to tailor the sound to your liking (although that won't allow for Dynamic EQ to be used, so we will have to hope you like either the "Audyssey" or "Audyssey Flat" curves as they are ;) )

And if we really want to get into the nitty-gritty, we will play bass sweeps and test tones to figure out which speaker positions are not performing as you would like.

That will be the process :)

Wanger 714

01-17-2015, 09:31 AM

Hi everybody... Thanks again Rob

Wow, looks like I have a little work to do...It will be enjoyable though..I will get pictures and a room layout of some sort. For another year and a half, I'm still a working guy, so my work days might not be as fruitful as I work 12 hour days. My days off are sometimes on weekends, and sometimes during the week. Until the weather breaks here in Ohio, my "off" says are free. I have no problem spending the entire weekend (or whatever) searching for answers. During the spring and summer months, my brother and myself travel the eastern US racing Drag Cars(NHRA SuperStock ) I drive and he's my crew chief . So I've got a few months before race season.... I'll be back in touch. I'm at work now but tonight I will get started on this

Wanger 714

01-21-2015, 03:20 PM

Heres the pics. Room is 16 by 25 wide. Has a few little nooks and crannys, and a finished ceiling with some duckwork built in for the heat to get from the woodburner to the upstairs...You will see.I hope:11601161116211631164]1159[/ATTACH]1165

essneff

01-22-2015, 05:21 AM

Good looking dogs!!!!!!!!!!

markie

01-22-2015, 08:58 AM

Very cozy looking! But I note an alarming lack of IKEA furniture hehe

I think it's a great idea to upgrade to the Sierra towers, but still, it's a very interesting problem that your new receiver/Oppo combination do not play well with your old speakers for music. How was your old Panasonic CD player (do you mean DVD player?) hooked up to your Marantz, and how is your current Oppo hooked up to the Denon, if I may ask?

Mark

markie

01-22-2015, 10:42 AM

Skip that last question. You no doubt have gone through basic stuff like that. Perhaps, perhaps, FirstReflect's more advanced setup advice will yield fruit.

However, I think the simple truth is that the Denon does not have the juice required to run your M-K speakers properly. They are low impedance, probably low sensitivity, and probably love current. Your old Marantz quite possibly delivered more current than your Denon. The fact that the sound is so disappointing at higher volumes (presumumably with things like Dynamic Volume turned off) speaks to me that your intuition is right - the Denon is just too wimpy for your speakers.

I think your choice of XPR-5 is crazy good, but it's expensive. Maybe the XPA-5 would more than suffice at less than half the price. It would be way better than the Denon's amps anyway, and better than the Marantz. And quite possibly your M-K speakers might sing so well with the new amps that you might not be looking for speaker replacement. While the Sierra Towers would sound great, the only downside is that your would loose the seamlessness of having 5 of the same speakers as you do now.

Whatever may transpire, I'm very interested in whatever procedure has your system sounding even better than it once did!

Mark

Wanger 714

01-22-2015, 01:30 PM

11661167

Thanks...Meet AnnaBelle, the blue merle Aussie(10 months) and Rett, the Black Tri Aussie (6 Months)...We refer to them as the terrible two!

Wanger 714

01-22-2015, 01:36 PM

AR2ax man

01-22-2015, 01:56 PM

Also beleive emotiva has a 30 day return period, so you could try it and know for sure if that is what your missing. If no dice, return.

petmotel

01-23-2015, 06:24 PM

Wanger 714

01-24-2015, 02:22 AM

First thing that jumps out at me is the speaker and listener locations. Not good, don't know if you want to get into that, or how much rearranging you'd be able to do. Regardless of which speakers and electronics you end up with, proper speaker and listener set up is very important, and your current arrangement leaves a whole bunch of performance on the table.

Jay

What do have in mind Jay.. I don't want to end up where only one or 2 people can sit in front of TV,is my only concern. And that Woodburner gets HOT. I have to keep at least several feet from that thing. The post is a factor too.

FirstReflect

01-25-2015, 03:16 PM

I'm very sorry it has taken me this long to reply. I'm doing my best to grab a few moments for home theatre stuff whenever I can. We've got a stupid tuberculosis scare running through our whole family, and my mom's in hospital with meningitis and TB, so there isn't much time to go around! Quite a frustrating and trying time.

Anywho, on much happier topics, I will start by saying that seeing those pictures is a huge help. Makes such a difference to know what we're dealing with. More than that, if your desire is to "bring the instruments and voices into your room", it becomes less imperative to acoustically treat your room. If we discover some acoustic issues that cannot be addressed any other way, I might still end up recommending some acoustic treatments. But for right now, we can leave the room as is in that regard. I happen to be on the opposite end of the preference spectrum, I want to be "transported" to a different venue. I don't want to hear my own room much at all. So I go to some effort to reduce the reflections of my own room so that I can rely on the ambient information in the recording to "tell my brain" where I am. But a great deal depends on the recording. Nevertheless, when your goal is to "bring the instruments into your room", having the reflections of your room intact is important. So we will leave your room's acoustics alone for the time being.

Another note for you is that the sofa that is pushed up against the left wall - that is a "lost cause" to us acoustically. We cannot worry about how things sound in that left wall sofa. Anyone sitting there is going to get what they get. When it comes to things like Audyssey and potentially measurements with a microphone in the future, we're not even going to worry about that left wall sofa.

And as far as Audyssey setup is concerned, we aren't going to worry about the recliner, either. When it comes to running Audyssey, we are only going to concern ourselves with the sofa in the middle that is directly facing the TV. Audyssey works by using spatial averaging, so there is no point in placing the microphone in locations where it is just going to create outlier data. We will confine the placement of the Audyssey microphone to the width of that middle sofa.

But before we get to any of that, as promised, we should start with getting your bass from your subwoofers in order.

I want to start with something even before that.

First, here is the manual for the AVR-4520CI: http://1drv.ms/1EJJqrd

Go to page 201 and it will tell you how to reset the 4520 so that it is like it's brand new again. I'm hoping you will be ok with starting from scratch, because it just makes it so much easier if I know where you're starting from.

So with the AV Receiver plugged in, but turned off, press and hold the "info" and "back" buttons on the front panel of the 4520. Then press the power button to wake the 4520 out of standby. Continue to hold both the "info" and "back" buttons until the front display starts to blink. Once the front display is blinking, you can release the "info" and "back" buttons. This will reset your 4520 so that it's like brand new.

Once the 4520 is done with its reset, turn it back on, cancel out of the Setup Assistant. Then have absolutely nothing connected physically to the 4520 except an HDMI cable going from the 4520 to your TV (so that you can see the on screen menus) and the two subwoofers (and depending on how things go with placement, we might need to alter the connection for one of your subwoofers a little bit, but we will get to that in a moment).

So, once again, all that is plugged into the 4520 right now is an HDMI output going to your TV, and your two subwoofers. No speakers, no sources yet.

Press "setup" on the remote to get into the 4520's settings. Go down to "speakers", and go to "manual setup". Go to "impedance" in that section, and double check that "8 ohms" is selected. After resetting the 4520, it should be - 8 ohms is the default. But we are just double checking. As I said previously, any AV Receiver that gives you the option to select a lower impedance (such as 4 ohms) just completely chokes off all of its current if you select that lower impedance setting. Always leave any impedance option at the highest impedance available. In the case of the 4520, that is 8 ohms.

With that done, now we can focus on your subwoofers. We are going to have to do some experimentation here. Our goal is to locate your two subwoofers so that when we play a bass sweep (which you can download here: http://1drv.ms/1L90QlB ) that sweep sound uniform at every location across that middle sofa in your room. Again, we can't worry about the left wall sofa or even the recliner so much. Our real concern is that middle sofa in these tests. And we are not necessarily looking for the bass sweep to sound perfectly linear. Our goal here is to position your two subwoofers such that we can play the bass sweep on repeat, we can sit anywhere on that middle sofa, and the bass sweep will sound the same in every location. We want to avoid any gigantic dips in the bass sweep. But other than that, it's ok if the bass sweep doesn't sound perfectly linear. We are looking for uniform, and free of any gigantic dips. So long as the bass is uniform across the middle sofa, Audyssey MultEQ XT32 can do a fabulous job of making it linear. And since it is uniform, it will remain linear across that entire middle sofa. The only unfixable problem are gigantic dips that are caused by sound wave cancellation. No amount of EQ can "fill in" a cancellation dip. You can make the subwoofers play louder at those frequencies, but they will still just cancel. So uniform across the middle sofa, and no gigantic dips. That's our goal.

Right now, you have both subwoofers towards the left of your room. That is going to cause lots of issues. I'm looking at your photos and trying to come up with options for how you might be able to get your two subwoofers positioned across the room from on another:

1) Put one subwoofer where that ottoman is shown in the pictures right next to the left wall sofa. Then place the second subwoofer all the way across the room beside your bar stools. That would give you sort of a diagonally opposite setup.

2) I'm not sure what kind of room you have behind your bar, but you could leave one subwoofer in the left rear corner where it is already, and put the second subwoofer behind the bar. This will give you diagonally opposite corner placement.

3) You could move the subwoofer that's at the front of your setup just to the left of the TV to the other side - so on the right of your TV and beside the landing for the fireplace. Then move the second subwoofer basically next to your staircase at the back of the room. Again, we're trying to get them across the room from one another and diagonally opposite.

Now, I realize those placements might make it hard to run a subwoofer cable to the subwoofer that ends up all the way across the room. So an easy solution is a wireless subwoofer connection. I'd recommend this one from Outlaw Audio, since most users have found it very reliable (unlike, say, the Rocketfish offering at Best Buy): http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/OAW3.html

I realize it's an added cost, but it is so, so worth it to have your subwoofers positioned where they will create uniform, even bass across all of your primary seats. That is a nearly magical thing when it happens, and it will free up your speakers and AV Receiver tremendously because it will make crossing them over and integrating the bass with the mid-range astonishingly easier.

So, we are going to try any of those placement combinations that might work for you. We need to make sure the settings on the backs of your two subwoofers are correct. The "low pass filter" knob needs to be up as high as it will go - 125Hz in the case of the MX-70B. The phase switch should be set to "+" on both. The subwoofer cable or the wireless unit should be plugged into the "Left/Mono" plug. And to start, the "bass level" knob should be set at "Reference".

Now, the AVR-4520CI doesn't offer the handy, dandy independent subwoofer volume adjustment screen at the beginning of its Audyssey setup process. So we are going to even out the volume levels of the two subwoofers manually. Again, we're not even running Audyssey yet or worrying about any other speakers. Just the two subs. And we just want them to be equally loud at your primary seat while we run the bass sweep on repeat.

So we are going to press "setup" on the remote and go the "Audio" section. While we are here, we are going to go to the "Volume" section and change the "Scale" setting from the default "0-98" to the much more useful "–79.5 dB to 18.0 dB". The negative number scale tells us how many dB above or below Reference Volume we are using. The 0-98 all positive numbers scale is basically arbitrary and tells us nothing useful!

Back out of the "Volume" and "Audio" sections and go into the "Speaker -> Manual Setup" menus. Go to "Speaker config -> Subwoofer" and make sure that is set to "2spkrs". Then go to the "Levels" menu and play the test tones.

We are NOT adjusting anything on the AV Receiver. All we want are the test tones to come from Subwoofer 1 and then Subwoofer 2 independently. If you have an SPL meter or a smartphone with an SPL meter app, ideally, the test tone should register at 75 dB SPL when you are sitting in your primary seat and the test tone is playing from just one subwoofer (and you haven't changed anything on the AV Receiver itself - it's still just at the default 0 dB test tone level). You want to manually adjust the "Bass level" knob on the back of each of your subwoofers. That is where you are making any adjustment right now. So get the test tone from Subwoofer 1 to read 75 dB SPL (or close to it), then get the test tone from Subwoofer 2 to also read 75 dB SPL. If you do not have an SPL meter, just get the test tones to sound equally loud. Since one subwoofer is all the way across the room, it will almost certainly need to have its knob turned up higher than the subwoofer that is physically closer to you.

OK, now your subs are positioned and equally loud. Now we are going to play that bass sweep on repeat (you can load it onto a smartphone or iPod and plug that directly into the USB input, or you can put the bass sweep right onto a USB thumbdrive and play it directly from the 4520's USB input (it's a .wav file). Any method of just playing that bass sweep on repeat is fine.

Turn the master volume dial on your 4520 up fairly high. If you're not going to bother anyone, go ahead and set it all the way up at 0 dB for full Reference Volume. Of course, if you notice any distortion coming from your subwoofers, turn the volume down a bit! But just turn up the volume dial gradually on your 4520 until that bass sweep is playing nice and loud - probably a bit louder than you would expect. 75-85dB is louder than it seems!

With the bass sweep playing, you're going to sit in every seat across your middle sofa, and you want that bass sweep to sound uniform. Not necessarily perfectly linear, but uniform - and without any gigantic dips. If you achieve that, congratulations! You now have optimally positioned subwoofers! If it doesn't, then you can try one of the other placement options. Also, do not be afraid to make small adjustments in positioning. Sometimes, just moving one of the subwoofers 6 inches in any given direction will be enough to make a very noticeable difference. So this is the trial and error stage. But once you have uniform bass across your middle sofa with no gigantic dips, then you are off to the races!

I will leave it there for the moment. But the next steps will be connecting all of your speakers, getting them angled properly (since it looks as though physically moving them isn't a convenient option), and then running Audyssey with proper microphone placement and technique!

I'm very keen to hear from you how these subwoofer positioning experiments go. It is not a subtle thing when the bass becomes uniform across your seats. You will definitely know when it is not uniform vs. when it is. And it's a very cool effect when it "snaps" into place and becomes uniform :D

Wanger 714

01-25-2015, 05:24 PM

Looking at your "to do list" all I can say is "Oh my God"

This is going to be great..BTW, I have the same kind of family issues hitting home here also Rob. My mother fell Saturday at her home and thank goodness we have life alert type product. She pushed her neck collar button and they dispatched an ambulance. She was still laying there when they arrived. So I have been at the hospital all weekend and looks like she is going to have to be admitted to some type of additional skilled nursing home...at least for a while..She is 88 and has smoked a pack of cigarettes for the last 71 years so many would say....well you know.... So this week is probably a wash . I have next Saturday thru Tuesday off as once every 6 weeks I get a 4 day weekend...I'll get my butt busy then ...Thanks much Rod, this looks fun... Also, I had the manual printed (4250) and put in 2 binders when I bought it...So I will always have it laying there.
And I saw the pictures of your set-up---- I had to go get wife and show her....Wow,I've never seen anything like it...downright awesome

FirstReflect

01-25-2015, 06:20 PM

I somehow forgot to put in an important step prior to you playing the bass sweep on repeat.

So before you start playing the bass sweep, press "setup" on your remote, go to "speakers -> Manual Setup" and go to the "speaker config" section. Make sure you set the Front L&R speakers to "Small" (they default to "large" after resetting the AV Receiver). After setting them to "small", go into the "crossover" menu. You can leave that as applying to "all", but set it to a nice, high number just while we are running the bass sweep - 150Hz or higher is good.

This is important because we want ALL of that bass sweep being played by the subwoofers while we are figuring out their positioning and whether they are producing uniform bass across all of your seats.

And when you are playing the bass sweep, set the listening mode to "stereo".

Important stuff that I somehow missed despite my verbosity :p

Wanger 714

02-04-2015, 04:50 PM

Rob, and everybody

Apologize for getting such a late start. My Mother has been making the rounds between skilled nursing facilities and the hospital since I last posted. Between that and my actual job there are just other things more important than my hobbies...

BUT, ! I could not help myself,... I had a weak moment and called Dina and...ordered a new set of Towers and a Horizon.

Audiolover458

02-05-2015, 11:26 AM

Thanks Wanger for starting this discussion. FirstReflect is helping me with my setup as well because I have the Denon 4520CI as well. Thank you FirstReflect for taking the time to provide such detailed instructions. I hope your family is feeling better.

Wanger 714

02-05-2015, 04:57 PM

Thanks for the kind words. Glad to hear your getting use out of the thread. Are you following along and waiting on me to get going? I hope not. Just do your testing and post here and I will try catch up ..Good listening,,,And Good Luck,
I'm certainly wondering if your satisfied with that 4250,or critical, as I have been. But I need to hold judgment till after we do all the legwork to optimize it.
I just ordered theses speakers ( OH YEA,... I'm excited!!) so I don't know if Rob thinks I should hold up and wait for them or what... And I am 95% sure I'm going to pull the trigger and get another amp while I'm In the mood and have available overtime at work right now.... I asked Daves opinion on what he likes with his speakers and told me ATI makes a really nice amp, so I have had my eye on a ATI 2005 . I'll use the Denon as a Pre.. The speakers wont be here for a couple months so I was going to try to time it so they all arrived together..
Thoughts Rob. ?
Also,..Was wondering about the tuberculosis scare . My brother just had legionnaires disease 2 months ago! My mother is with pneumonia, among other things. Same ward in the same hospital! Hope everybody on your end is on the mend... Wanger

Harro

02-07-2015, 07:46 AM

Thanks for the kind words. Glad to hear your getting use out of the thread. Are you following along and waiting on me to get going? I hope not. Just do your testing and post here and I will try catch up ..Good listening,,,And Good Luck,
I'm certainly wondering if your satisfied with that 4250,or critical, as I have been. But I need to hold judgment till after we do all the legwork to optimize it.
I just ordered theses speakers ( OH YEA,... I'm excited!!) so I don't know if Rob thinks I should hold up and wait for them or what... And I am 95% sure I'm going to pull the trigger and get another amp while I'm In the mood and have available overtime at work right now.... I asked Daves opinion on what he likes with his speakers and told me ATI makes a really nice amp, so I have had my eye on a ATI 2005 . I'll use the Denon as a Pre.. The speakers wont be here for a couple months so I was going to try to time it so they all arrived together..
Thoughts Rob. ?

Wondering why you would need an external amp? Are you planning for 11.1 setup? The Denon 4520 certainly has enough internal amps to push your forth coming towers to levels to cry uncle at. I would only buy an external amp if going to the 11.1 set up and in fact have purchased an external amp just so I could go to the 11.1. I have a 4311ci which was the flagship before the 4520 and can say it has enough power to drive the 9.1 system to ear shattering levels by it self. Audiolover458 can vouch for that, since he has heard my system.
But if you need to spend your overtime money, I would look in the area for substantial subs. 2 subs are always better than one and that will cost you some money.

Wanger 714

02-07-2015, 01:22 PM

Wondering why you would need an external amp? Are you planning for 11.1 setup? The Denon 4520 certainly has enough internal amps to push your forth coming towers to levels to cry uncle at. I would only buy an external amp if going to the 11.1 set up and in fact have purchased an external amp just so I could go to the 11.1. I have a 4311ci which was the flagship before the 4520 and can say it has enough power to drive the 9.1 system to ear shattering levels by it self. Audiolover458 can vouch for that, since he has heard my system.
But if you need to spend your overtime money, I would look in the area for substantial subs. 2 subs are always better than one and that will cost you some money.

Hi
I just want "impact" ...I want to feel it. Sound yes, clarity yes, but I want that live thump..I ask Dina and she said at those "turned up level's" that a amp makes a definite difference. I have two MX 70 SF M&K subs and a MX 125 SF .. The fact that I want this system for 75% music,,not so much movie sound, also makes me think more power is better. I still watch movies with the wife, but I like to ROCK! And a little Country...and a little Progressive Jazz... LOL
And I don't understand why a 150 watt receiver weighs less than 50 lbs...but a good 200 watt Amp weights near a 100? ...Something is in that amp that receivers don't use (that is heavy).... Why do they put it in there? And why don't receivers?
You guys ,I race cars . Been in the racing circuit all my life. Been on the engine "dyno" many an hour. If I can relate this to something I DO know something about for a second... If our engine makes 700 horsepower and (500) ft pounds of torque ,it will be a good piece..BUT..If it makes the same horsepower but it makes 50 more foot pound of torque(550) it will be quite a bit faster although the horsepower is the same... Is this why the amps put out more "push".
So is the watt rating like the horsepower ?

Audiolover458

02-07-2015, 05:41 PM

I think the weight in the AMPs is the heavy aluminum heatsinks so that they do not have fan noise which is the effect on the PRO AMPS which are usually half the price.

Dont confuse horsepower with AMP Power. I can confirm having heard Harros system and having used my 4520 with the Towers that you cannot max out the AVR using the Towers.

Also Harro has tested his Emotiva XPA3 with his Speakers and he felt no difference in the sound of any kind whatsoever. Go to AVS Forum and do some more reading so you will know but do not go to the Emotiva forum haha or you will end up buying mucho AMPS.

Test your speakers FIRST with Just the AVR and if you feel you need more you can try the External AMP.

I see that you are in the I want to spend some serious money mode which cost me thousands when I did so without any education. But hey it's only money and its YOUR Money :-). First Reflect actually wanted you to test your current system without doing anything but you could not even wait. But hey great buy indeed with the Towers. If they dont do it for you then not sure what will but the THUMP comes from the SUBS. Get the Biggest and Baddest one you can afford AND Balance them per First Reflects instructions.

Good Luck and Happy Listening!!! In a few weeks LOL.

Harro

02-07-2015, 05:58 PM

Maybe this video will help explain why an external amp wouldn't be need to high SPL. Granted the speakers in the video are more efficient but even so at 20 watts amp with a peak of a 110dbs is loud. The 4520 I believe is rated at 150 watts with 2 channels driven.

http://youtu.be/LlSTiV5NruQ

muzz

02-07-2015, 06:53 PM

Yep
I had typed up a rather large post explaining the situation, but deleted it.
Moral of the story?
That 4520 has a very powerful amp, so even cranking that thing 1/2 way would be VERY loud on Ascend speakers without strain, these aren't 70DB sensitivity speakers...
Want it twice as loud? Find another place to live, become single, get ridiculous 1500W amp and new speakers.
That kinda power is for Subs, not mains/C IMHO.
My Denon 988 or my 110WPC(8ohms- 160W 4Ohm) Boston Acoustics A7200 will make my current room ridiculous- it's 13x13x7.5- my OLD room was MUCH larger, ~ 25x14x7.5- plus a stairway that went up stairs, and the Boston amp was really loud...but how much louder than the 988? I dunno, never even ran the Denon amp until recently(have owned it for 8 years)...I'm guessing not much, but maybe a lil better dynamics at very loud volumes...VERY loud.

Maybe I'm wrong, many tests of decent amps/AVRS tell me I'm probably not that far off for the most part.
Quality is the main thing,that 4520 is considered Denons flagship....I'm seriously doubting it has a crap amp, but I've been wrong before! :)

Wanger 714

02-08-2015, 02:23 AM

eliwankenobi

02-08-2015, 07:00 AM

Congratulations Wagner on the purchase...

Other than power, a case can be made in favor of the ATI 2005 amp for It has an SNR greater than 120db ... Its very silent. Pause some material and take the volume all the way up and might not hear anything at all... Where on most amps you hear a hiss coming from your tweeters. Especially if they are efficient speakers and the Tower Raal is very efficient.

It also has very good slew rate (good for transients). It is a differential/balanced amp, you its full benefits running it balanced. Still, I say go for it!

I sure would!

muzz

02-08-2015, 10:10 AM

Is most of your music listening 2 channel, or something else like 5 channel mode?
The 4520 specs only show 2 channels driven at 150W, I have no idea what the specs would be with all 5 channels driven- my A7200 is 100Wx7, 20hz-20khz, all channels driven @.02%THD
Regarding weight- Class AB amps have large transformers and heat sinks, class D or H amps are a lot lighter, due to a completely different design.
My A7200 has 2 large toroidal transformers,7 separate monoblock amps, and weighs 80lbs....only so much real estate in an AVR, as you have the whole front end as well, in pretty much the same size chassis.

I think FR has you on the right track, and with the better setup and new speakers, should surpass your old setup by a fair margin....
If you still feel like you need an amp, there are plenty available, and you don't have to spend a ton of $ to get 1.

Have fun!

Wanger 714

02-08-2015, 03:36 PM

muzz

02-08-2015, 04:20 PM

I would start looking at Audiogon to get an idea of what used Amps go for, and then go from there with googling for user reviews,etc...
AVSFORUM is a good place to get a ton of user reviews as well.
I perfectly understand the upcoming fixed income situation, get what ya need now!

I believe Curtis here has a Class D amp, and IIRC used to have the SN A965 (class AB- same as my BA A7200), so he may be able to give you an idea of the differences between them.

With all that being said, I would still follow the direction you've been given here as far as setup...
Have you seen Batpigs page? All about Denon gear.
http://batpigworld.com/setup.html

Have Fun! :)

Wanger 714

02-08-2015, 05:12 PM

Thanks muzz
Will review both. I won't buy used. Gun-shy of them. And unless someone tells me otherwise, I'm kind of sold on the ATI just cause Dave recommended them . They're his speakers ,he certainly should know. Thanks and I WILL have fun........ Wanger

muzz

02-08-2015, 06:08 PM

Going on Audiogon will give you an idea on costs, you don't have to buy used, resale tells a lot(for the MOST part) IMHO, plus there are questions asked etc....
Just a suggestion, don't take anyone's word as gospel.

This is the beginning of the fun!

eliwankenobi

02-08-2015, 06:27 PM

Thanks Muzz, Harro, Eliwankenobi, Audiolover,,,everybody.
Muzz...Its a 5 channel set-up and two subs
I'm going to do the amp. Don't really know whats the best place to buy from? Some of my reasoning is just plain timing of everything. I'm about to retire here in a few months, and I took care of my wife's pre-bucket list ( pool, deck, fence)...now its my turn. After I go into retirement mode my income is going to become alot more "fixed". If I go with a nice amp, in a few years when the Denon is looking a little dated, its easy to go with a nice pre ....But swinging another high dollar receiver might get me one of those "your kidding me,right?" looks from my wife... So its about the sound, but not entirely. I just hope I haven't ran First Reflect off with all this. But from looking at his equipment...He knows more about buying equipment than I can even dream of!

Hey Wagner,

If you will go for the ATI 2005.. The place to go is classicaudioparts.com It is an ATI authorized website for their B-stock inventory. You get a nice discount for marginal aesthetic damage, but all is in perfect working condition and full manufacturer's warranty. And you can buy internet direct. Otherwise, you would need to contact an ATI dealer... or like others have mentioned... you can try Audiogon or ebay for used units.

Wanger 714

02-09-2015, 02:24 AM

Thanks... Some of my M&Ks were B stock. i think it was the B-1600s. Headed out to work but this evening I will search them out

AR2ax man

02-09-2015, 08:56 AM

Wanger,

Just wanted to say, think you are on the right track with your end goal/vision is. With First reflect setup advise and buying the new Ascends hopefully you achieve your dream result. I also believe you are correct in going for the external amp, since this is probably the system you want to last a very longtime. A good external amp will handle dips in ohm, way better then receiver amps will. Even thou the Ascend are efficient and state should not dip below 4 ohm, you will be at ease knowing the ATI will handle anything. Not meant to knock Denon, but me and my buddies would constantly send various Denon receivers into overheat/protection mode in my younger years. Maybe they have improved these days.

Wanger, I would also be curious to see when you default the settings on the Denon and hook up Ascends, run the Ascend in your room with no room correction and no subs running, just to see how they sound. Just level match with a free SPL smartphone app. Maybe you will like it. Then run with room correction. This way you will know how the Ascend stack up to when your old system did not have room correction either :)

Good luck, and hope family gets better!

Wanger 714

02-09-2015, 04:06 PM

AR2ax Man

Long day, 10 at work, 2 in hospital... But I wanted to take just a moment to say thanks for letting me know I'm headed in the right direction, and encouragement with Mom.. Wang

FirstReflect

02-09-2015, 07:41 PM

Sorry I've not been able to pop in and reply.

Firstly, congrats on the Ascend speaker purchase! We've been having a fun discussion lately on the AV Rant Podcast in regards to how different people react to going from one set of speakers to another. Some of us get very (often overly) excited when we hear small differences. I fall into this camp, but it's because there are so many instances where there really aren't any audible differences. So even a small difference can get me excited. But many folks hear a difference and it just isn't something they really care about. And I think that's perfectly valid, too. For example, upgrading my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2 is a not insignificant amount of money. It's not pocket change. And if we're being really honest, the difference in sound between the Sierra-1 NrT and the Sierra-2 is pretty darn small! It's not like the Sierra-2 is suddenly producing audible frequencies that the Sierra-1 NrT could never produce. It's not like I can barely recognize the same song being played on one or the other. If we're being honest, the difference is pretty darn subtle! And if someone told me they heard the difference, but they just didn't care, I wouldn't have any issue with that.

All of that is to say, I'll be very keen to read what you think of the Sierra Towers when they arrive. Are you the sort of person who will get excited by the small, but objectively measureable difference and find that sufficient to completely justify the not insignificant expenditure? Or will you be someone who listens to the difference, but ultimately says to himself, "what's all the fuss about?" A lot tends to depend on one's financial situation and how much value they place on subtle differences.

Anywho, that's an aside. To address some of the questions:

1) There is no reason at all to delay in going through the procedure I have already outlined in this thread in regards to your subwoofer placement and setup. Once your new speakers arrive, you will, of course, need to carefully position them and then go through a complete Audyssey setup once again. But in the mean time, if you get your bass in order with your dual subwoofers, you'll be "ready to go" as it were when your new speakers arrive. That's the joy of having your bass sorted out as an almost entirely separate thing from your speakers - it remains sorted out, even if you swap out your speakers ;)

2) In regards to the amplifier, I just hope you aren't expecting some sort of large difference in audible sound quality. If you expect one, and you know that you've installed a new amplifier, then you'll likely convince yourself that you hear a difference. That's how these things tend to go. But I try to use blind listening as much as possible. If the amp is REALLY making an audible difference, then I shouldn't have to know whether anything has been changed in my system. I should be able to sit down and notice it without knowing anything has been changed. Or at the very least, I should be able to switch back and forth between two setups and identify which is which without knowing which is which ahead of time, or even if there's any difference at all between Setup A and Setup B!

Now, CAN amplifiers make a difference? Yes they can. But when you're starting with something like the AVR-4520CI's amps driving only 5 speakers (and with real content, not 5 test tones being driven simultaneously at Reference Volume, which isn't something real content will ever demand), any actual, audible differences are likely to be darn subtle. Subtle can still be entirely real and measureable, though. Subtle doesn't mean "not worth it". It just means subtle! It's up to the buyer to decide whether "subtle" is worth the amount of money being spent ;)

But I can pretty much promise that it isn't going to be a "big" difference. Not unless there's actually something wrong with your 4520. The vast, vast majority of the time, each speaker is drawing less than 1 Watt. Even at full Reference Volume. So where can an external amplifier actually produce audibly different results? At the extreme quiet end and the extreme loud end. Idle noise floor can be lower with a great external amp. And transient attacks and dynamic swings can be produced without any distortion or "soft clipping" of the signal. But the vast majority of the time? No audible difference. And that's one of the reasons why I get excited when there really IS a difference!

So I will never say that a great external amp is a BAD purchase. You can always find a use for a great amp. And a great amp can last you the rest of your life and then be passed down to your kids - haha. And if you're a stickler for a REALLY silent noise floor (like I am), there can be real, audible benefits. And if you like to play things REALLY loud, there can be real benefits there, too. But just don't go expecting "night and day". That really, really tends to be an exaggeration used by reviewers when they're just trying to convey that there is SOME difference - because the majority of the time, there's really just no audible difference at all with amplifiers. So SOME difference gets turned into "HOLY COW! THIS IS THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE EVER MADE BY ANYTHING EVER IN THE HISTORY OF EVERYTHING!" It just ain't true. And have them listen and compare blind? They might not be able to hear any difference at all! There's a reason why every new amp reviewed is always said to "perform just as well as other amps costing twice as much" while simultaneously NEVER being QUITE as good as amps that cost 10x as much. And that reason has nothing to do with actual audible sound. Make the reviewers listen blind. They'll have a tough time because they'll be sweating so much they won't be able to concentrate as they attempt to back up their bogus claims ;)

So here's my recommendation: if you're dead set on buying an amp, I have no beef with that. Like I say, it's never a BAD investment. And there CAN be real, audible differences - they're just subtle is all.

I completely agree with going with ATI. If you're going to buy the ATI branded models, go to classicaudioparts.com as was already mentioned. You are dealing with ATI directly at Classic Audio Parts. It's a great way to get their amps at a discount.

But you could also go over to Outlaw Audio ( outlawaudio.com ). Their amps are built for them by ATI and use extremely similar designs. In fact, if you're looking at almost any Class A/B amplifier that says it is fully designed and built in the USA, there's a darn good chance ATI is making it for whatever brand name is on the front. Between Jade and ATI, there aren't actually a whole lot of other manufacturers physically making amps. Jade and ATI are the OEMs for a LOT of amps out there.

Anyways, Outlaw is currently selling off their remaining Model 7200 amps for $1500. That's what I would recommend most highly. They are very, very similar to ATI's own 1800 Series amps.

That much said, I have to suggest that I actually think that same money would be better spent on two new subwoofers! If what you're after is the largest audible difference for the money spent, you'll get that by purchasing a pair of new subwoofers that can really dig down to 20Hz or lower and completely pressurize your entire room that you've got there. I mean, heck, if you don't care about their physical size, you could afford a pair of HSU's VTF-3 MK5 HP 15" subs that could push you darn close to full 115dB peaks in your room! Or a pair of SVS 2000 Series subs. You've got options is my point ;)

Anyways, I wrote up something for Audiolover that goes into the rest of the setup procedure after you have your subwoofers in order, so I will copy and paste that below as I might as well get you all prepared for what to do with your speakers! Ill get that posted in a little bit...

FirstReflect

02-09-2015, 07:53 PM

1) The key is to start with uniform bass response. Once you have that, you have so much more freedom because you can cross over your speakers to the subwoofers almost at any frequency you like, and good equalization like what Audyssey MultEQ XT32 can provide can work very effectively to produce linear response since any changes made by the EQ will be uniform across your primary seating area.

2) What I wrote about always setting your AV Receiver to the highest impedance output setting (in this case, 8 ohms, not 6 or 4) is correct. You can follow the same advice from Audioholics if you don't believe me. Gene is an electrical engineer and has the measurements and equations to objectively show what is going on in AV Receivers when you lower their output impedance setting. To make a long story short, though, it drastically chokes off the power! And there's really no good reason to ever do it. AV Receiver manufacturers include that setting so that they can meet Energy Star requirements. It destroys performance.

3) What I am recommending really only applies to "small" rooms - "small" in this case referring to auditory space descriptions where a full sized cinema would be a "medium" acoustic space, and a stadium would be "large". So in those terms, essentially any home theater is a "small" room.

In any case, ultimately, the results speak for themselves. People have been putting two subwoofer in the front corners or right next to their Front L/R speakers for ages, and then been complaining that they still have peaks and dips, or that the bass sounds different from seat to seat. People have been setting their speakers to "large" and "full range" for ages, and then discovered that they can only have a single, good listening position, or maybe not even that if they don't have the freedom to REALLY carefully position their speakers.

I don't care about intuition or thinking about how we would LIKE for sound to work. I only care about results and how sound ACTUALLY works. And in small rooms, it is not intuitive and it doesn't work the way we would like.

4) So nail down your bass response the way I described. And set your 4520CI to 8 ohms output. I also highly recommend that you begin the entire process by resetting your 4520CI so that it is as though it is fresh out of the box, just as I suggested earlier. Otherwise, I've no idea what settings and changes might have been made. Also, Audyssey is the very last part of the process, so we don't want that active when we are doing the bulk of the setup process.

After that, it will be time to position and toe in your speakers as well as you are able. This is fairly simple. You position them as close to the Dolby guidelines as you can. Front L/R speakers as close together as + or - 22 degrees to the left and right of dead center, or as wide as +/- 30 degrees to the left and right of dead center. Center speaker dead center, of course. Surround speakers +/- 90 to 110 degrees left and right of dead center.

Get the tweeters of the Front L/R and Center speakers as close to seated ear level as possible. Have the Surround speakers just high enough overhead so that the tweeter of the Right Surround speaker still has a clear line of sight to the left most seat, and vice versa for the Left Surround speaker.

Once they're positioned, it's time to play with toe in and rake (tilting forward or back). All you need to do here is play pink noise through each speaker one at a time. You can use the built in test tones from the 4520 that you'd find in the "levels" submenu of the manual setup portion of the speaker setup menu. Just play that pink noise through each speaker one at a time.

Start by getting within about 1 foot of any given speaker directly in front of it - not to either side or above or below the tweeter at all. Just smack dab in front of the speaker's tweeter. Now, remaining about 1 foot away for the time being, slowly move yourself to the left and right, then up and down. You want to get a sense of how far you can go off axis before the sound of the pink noise noticeably changes. The instant you move in any direction, the sound will likely change a little. But at this close range, it's pretty easy to hear the shift in tone of that pink noise as you move off axis.

So find the range of the speakers where that pink noise sounds pretty darn uniform. Now the goal is to toe in and rake (tilt) your speakers so that as many of your primary seats as possible fall within that "window" of off axis response where the pink noise sounds pretty darn uniform. You can then confirm this by actually sitting in your seats and making sure the tone and timbre of the pink noise does not drastically change from seat to seat - much like the bass sweeps of the subwoofers. We want uniformity, but not necessarily linearity. Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is what can give us linearity as long as the sound is uniform from seat to seat!

5) If you discover that, when you're within about a foot of the speakers, the pink noise remains quite uniform within a reasonably wide "window" off axis to either side and above and below the speaker, but then when you go and sit in your actual seats, the tone and timbre of the pink noise varies a lot - even though your seats now fall within that "window", then that is a dead giveaway that you have some fairly serious room acoustics issues.

So that's why it's important to start the process up close to the speakers, but then also go and confirm by actually listening in your seat. Again, Audyssey only applies one correction curve. If the sound changes a lot from seat to seat, there's nothing Audyssey can do about that. It can equalize the sound very well, but it will only work for multiple seats if the sound is already uniform from seat to seat!

If the sound is not changing drastically when you're within 1 foot of the speakers as you move off axis, but it is changing a lot from seat to seat, then you need some passive acoustic room treatments. The biggest culprit is often the reflections happening directly behind your seat. If your seat is pushed up against the back wall, that will cause huge problems. You need to heavily damp that back wall with absorption if that's the case.

The first reflections off of the side walls, floor and ceiling can also be primary culprits. Absorbing those can be tremendously helpful. And finally, directly behind the speakers on the front wall can be another source of issues as the lower frequencies "wrap around" the cabinets of the speakers and essentially act in an omnidirectional manner. Setting a higher crossover frequency can help here, but so can having absorption on that front wall.

6) Once you've done all that, you now have uniform sound across your seats. Now Audyssey can be highly effective to take that uniform sound and make it linear. The trick with Audyssey is to make sure that the microphone is very steady (use a tripod), and that the microphone has at least 1 foot of free air all around it in every direction. Do NOT have the mic close to the back of your seat. Move it far enough forward of the back of your seat and up above the top of the back of your seat enough that it has 1 foot of free air all around the microphone. Also, have the microphone pointing straight up at the ceiling.

Use at least 5 measurement positions, but keep them all within 2 feet of the original, primary starting location. So measurement one is taken in your center-most seat - the one that is directly in line with your Center speaker and equidistant from your Front L/R speakers. Even if that isn't where you normally sit, it's still the prime seat. That's the location that's used to set all of the speaker levels and delays, so the mic needs to be in the very best location possible, even if you don't always sit there.

Then make your other measurements all within 2 feet of that starting location. Go 2 feet to the left, 2 feet to the right. Then maybe 1 foot to the left and 1 foot forward, the 1 foot to the right and 1 foot forward. You can also vary the height of the microphone a bit, which is where being able to take up to 8 measurements comes in handy. But keep all the microphone positions within 2 feet of that prime starting location. Audyssey uses spatial averaging, so you want to give it an effective "bubble" of data to work with. Not a bunch of outlier data, even if there are physically seats outside of this 2 foot radius "bubble".

7) After Audyssey is run, you'll want to make some changes. Make sure ALL of the speakers are set to "small". This is Denon's fault, not Audyssey's. Denon decides what to do with the data as far as setting the speakers to either "large" or "small" and where they set the crossover point. Denon does it wrong. Set ALL speakers to "small", and start with them all at an 80Hz crossover point. Your speakers can certainly all play low enough, and there's no reason to ever go lower than 80Hz, only higher in some cases.

Also set Dynamic EQ to On, but set Dynamic Volume to Off. And you can choose between the "Audyssey" (sometimes called "Movie") curve or the "Flat" (sometimes called "Music") curve as you like. I prefer "flat" when the room is acoustically treated, but if you find the high frequencies a bit too bright, try the "Audyssey (Movie) curve, which rolls off the highs a bit.

You should be done now! Set your master volume to 0 dB to hear things at full Reference Volume. If you set the volume dial to a negative dB number, Audyssey Dynamic EQ will do a great job of making sure you still hear everything you're supposed to hear, rather than the bass or Surround effects quickly getting lost as you go to lower listening levels.

If you really want to confirm that you have the very best crossover frequencies possible, you can do that by playing that bass sweep that I linked to earlier in the thread. It makes a little click every 10Hz. At the very, very beginning, there's a click. A little ways into the sweep, you'll hear the first real click - that indicates 100Hz. Then there's a click at 90Hz, 80Hz, 70Hz and so on. So you can count the clicks to get a rough idea of what frequency you're hearing.

What you can do is go one speaker at a time. In order to do that, the easiest thing to do is to physically disconnect the speaker wire and subwoofer cables for all except one speaker at a time. You want to hear what each speaker is doing completely all by itself - no subs, no other speakers. You can use the "all channels stereo" or "party" mode so that every speaker output is getting the same bass sweep signal as you connect only one speaker at a time to listen to the sweep.

You've already set every speaker to "small" with an 80Hz crossover. So what you want to hear is the bass sweep start at 120Hz and play down to 80Hz very smoothly in every seat. At 80Hz, it should start to get quieter and quieter as the crossover you've set in the AV Receiver kicks in.

If you notice that the bass sweep does not sound smooth and uniform from 120Hz down to 80Hz, then you might want to actually set a higher crossover frequency. Again, this has almost nothing to do with the speakers - this is all because of your room. And it's entirely possible that you'll end up getting better results with a 90 or 100Hz crossover - even with the Towers.. That's why it's so important to nail down the bass response of your pair of subwoofers at the very beginning! Doing so gives you this freedom.

At the end of all of this, you now have uniform, linear, accurate sound. From seat to seat, the sound won't change drastically. And you shouldn't be able to tell where you speakers end and your subwoofers begin.

I hope that helps. Take care,

Rob H.

Wanger 714

02-10-2015, 03:04 PM

Rob.....you are quite a fella. I don't know what you do for a living, but if you are not writing of some kind, whether its in the newspaper, magazines or whatever, you have missed your calling. Impressive man, impressive. Maybe you already do, I'm just a rookie over here.
Tomorrows the day. I have a day off and Sue is working and brother John is going to take care of Mom.
I'm going to order the Amp tonight. And I can't resist, the ATI AT 2000 is coming to my house. I realize it will not be a night and day difference . I like the future expandability, and the added headroom when its a crankin..My last good amp was a Hafler 500 @ 255 and I think 472 comes to mind on 4 ohm. I always liked that amp.

I gotta tell you why, or at least explain myself....It is an interesting tale at the least. While working at some of the "factory's" over the decades gone by, I saw some things that turned me against Private Labels such as Outlaw. I'll always go with the name brand, if at all possible...
A while back, I spent about 10 years working for United Technologies. Worked as a Maintenance Technician . Place employed about 1500, in which 1300 was women... ( I could tell you some very eyebrow raising stories about that place, but I"d probably get thrown off the forum). Anyway, they had 15 departments, a press room, die cast department, cold header department ...you know the typical electro-mechanical plant, covering about a half a mile. I say electo because that is what we made, electro-mechanical switches. Headlight, Dimmer, Brake, Wiper Switches, that kind of stuff. We made them for Ford ,and also made them for NAPA and other private label stores ie Car Quest etc..These were IDENTICAL switches, at least they were suppose to be... Whenever we had parts... like copper washers or plungers and such that went in a switch that was not quite up to par...It went over and went in the aftermarket line. They might wait for a couple months to get the opportunity to use them. As they might not be running that particular switch right at that moment. But they were used in something other than the name brand. They weren't bad parts,not bad enough to toss out.Might be just right on the line for being 'in spec". Finish might be off, might be egg shaped a little...whatever.. But they made sure their bread and butter FORD,.. got only the best parts. The aftermarket switches went through the "test sets" at the end of the lines OK, but the Ford parts had all the best of the best. Kind of hand selected. Did the NAPAs know this was going on.? I'm sure they did not, and U.T would have denied it for sure... But it happened, quite frequently. I'm absolutely sure I'm thinkin too deep into this..But I've never forgot it, and when someone tells me their all alike...I know better. At least in my experiences

Here goes.......... I got a small start today
Rob, the sound wave pattern you gave me has some "clicks" on it...like static every few seconds.That supposed to be in there?

Wanger 714

02-14-2015, 02:10 PM

So much for my fear of Private Label items...
1) I have a couple questions. Would one of you point me in the direction cables. Nothing ridiculous, just some quality .I would like to hear your opinions
2) also, with the 1200 dollars I was planning on spending that I didn't (thanks F.Direct ) I am thinking about setting this up with a 2 channel bypass to listen to a couple hundred albums I have here at house. I was looking @ a Parasound 2100 only because I found a thread a couple years old on here and somebody was using one. That got me looking at a Parasound Halo P5...Comments? I could go to AVS and ask, but there are so many clowns on there. I trust you guys!LOL. I'm just wondering..
3) Are there any downsides?
4) And how just exactly do they work? Do they go before the Denon and Outlaw.., or after it.?
5) And could I plug my Oppo 103 into it, and Denon both? So I can play CD'S/Albums through the 2 channel and Blu-Rays through the Denon .I just cant get this in my head straight how they play both. I'm hoping I should not have ordered a 7 channel.
y Product Total
__________________________________________________ ____________

1 OAW3 Sys .................................... $ 149.00
OAW3 Wireless Audio System

1 7500 Power Amplifier ........................ $ 1,599.00
7500 5-Channel Balanced Amplifier

Total items: ( 2 )
Sub Total ................... $ 1,748.00
00.00 ........................ - $
Sub Total ................... $ 1,748.00
Tax ............................. $ 00.00
Shipping ........................ $ 93.16
Final Total .................. $ 1,841.16

-- Outlaw Audio, LLC
-- www.outlawaudio.com

-- PO Box 975
-- Easton, MA 02334

-- 866-OUTLAWS

eliwankenobi

02-14-2015, 07:08 PM

Hello!

If you want a preamp, you could consider the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XSP-1, now in its second generation. Both are well reviewd and both have bass management. A benefit of the Emotiva is that the home theater bypass also includes an input for subwoofer, where the p5 does not. This makes it more difficult to integrate you subwoofer with your pure audio setup AND your home theater. The Emotiva lets you have your 2ch setup with crossover to you subwoofer(s) and when in HT bypass, it just passes along whatever comes from the subwoofer signal and you only connect your subwoofer to one device.

Speaking of connecting, which ever preamp you choose would go in between you AVR pre-outs and your power amplifier. So the preouts for front Left/Right will go to the preamp and the output from the preamp goes into the power amps for your Left/Right speakers. In case of the Emotiva amps you do the same for the subwoofers. On both preamps, you also have enough inputs to include the analog outptus of the bdp103.

A note on the subs. I believe you have two subs? If so, you still want to use the summed subwoofer output. So what bass frequencies below the crossover point are split between your two subs and both play the same signal. Both subs playing the same signal is what makes them work together to even out the bass in your room. Otherwise they will both work more against each other than together. Besides, anything below 80hz we can't locate anyways, so it's not like a low 35hz signal on the left signal will be heard coming from the left sub.

Another note/drawback. Part of setting up a subwoofer properly to integrate with your main speakers is to have them time aligned with your mains speakers. This is very difficult to do. You'll always need somekind of DSP to setup proper delays so notes are all time-aligned and arrive at your position at the same time. There are devices out there like the miniDSP 2in x 4out boxes that would let you do just this. There is some setup involved, but it is just for the subs. Your main speakers would still be playing whatever they receive from the preamp.

I hope this helps.

Final note: most of what I mentioned here (specifically the subwoofer part), I learned from First Reflect himself (Rob H) and Tom Andry on the AV Rant podcast. Just search for AV Rant on YouTube and you'll find them quickly. The podcast is dedicated to answering questions for listeners about AV. And I recommend you or anyone ro check it out.

Ok I'm running too long now, bye!

FirstReflect

02-14-2015, 11:15 PM

The bass sweep that I sent is supposed to have those "clicks", yes.

There is a click at the very, very beginning. Then there is a click at 100Hz, 90Hz, 80Hz, etc., every 10Hz. That allows you to count the clicks to get a rough idea of what frequency you are hearing. The sweep starts at 120Hz and goes down to 30Hz.

As for cables and wires, my highest recommendation is for BlueJeansCable.com . Honestly, what they sell is overkill, but it is literally the same broadcast-quality cable stock that is used to make the content. Want to run cables around the entire perimeter of a stadium for a football game broadcast? Blue Jeans will sell you the same stuff to use in your home. So I like them for that :) They also sell very inexpensive Chinese-sourced cables over at TartanCable.com . Same company. The BlueJeans brand is for American made cable stock, Tartan is for Chinese-sourced cables. Either way, great company and perfect cable performance for very reasonable prices.

As for having a separate 2-channel-only pre-amp and running a "home theater bypass" setup, my opinion might not be popular, but I find it entirely unnecessary. Why go to all the trouble of positioning your subwoofers, bass managing them with your AV Receiver, running a great auto-EQ program like Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT, only to bypass all of that effort and linear sound quality just because your source is 2-channels instead of surround sound? The entire notion harkens back to when "surround sound" meant Dolby Pro Logic and there was a marked difference in the quality of consumer AV Receivers and higher end hi-fi gear. These days, it doesn't make any sense at all.

The DACs in the 4520 are every bit as good as any 2-channel-only gear. The amplification is linear and distortion free. We didn't have Audyssey MultEQ XT32 back in the days when Dolby Pro Logic was the only way to get surround sound at home. There have just been so many advancements and the sound quality has improved so much, but many people still hold onto the notion that 2-channel is somehow different than surround sound to this day.

Just put your 4520 in Stereo listening mode, take advantage of still being able to use your pair of bass managed, auto-EQ'd subwoofers, and save your money!

I know there are lots of people who disagree with me on this, but just think about it for a minute. Why would it somehow be better to listen to your 2-channel recordings with no subwoofers, no bass management, and no auto-EQ? There's this weird notion that 2-channel must somehow be more "pure" than surround sound. That's just patently ridiculous. Linear accurate sound is linear accurate sound whether the source is mono, stereo, or surround sound. Do you really think there are never any instances when a 5.1 recording is only playing out of the Front Left & Right speakers?

So I would urge you to not fall into that trap of thinking. Subwoofers are not "only for movies" as some people seem to espouse. The LFE channel in a 5.1 or 7.1 recording is NOT a "subwoofer" channel. It is a low frequency effects channel. It could be played back by any capable speaker. The primary reason the LFE channel is separate is because it is allowed to play up to 10dB louder than any other channel. So if a sound mixer wants to hit the audience with a 115dB blast of deep bass, the LFE channel allows for that. Any other channel maxes out at 105dB.

Subwoofers just take your 2-way bookshelf speakers and turn them into 3-way full range speakers. Or they take your 3-way Towers and turn them into full range 4-way speakers. There is ZERO reason to run only your Front L/R speakers as full range, and plenty of reasons not to.

Similarly, there is zero reason to bypass the auto-EQ that creates linear, accurate sound at your seats. You are not "corrupting" the sound just because it's 2-channel. The EQ is there to correct for the distortions that are created by your room! Those distortions don't suddenly become desirable just because you're listening to a record or a CD. Honestly, that way of thinking just baffles me.

Not to mention, Audyssey Dynamic EQ allows you to hear a properly balanced mix of bass, midrange and treble even when you do not have the master volume dial at 0 (zero) dB on the relative scale. You can have the volume at a lower, more comfortable level and still hear the deep bass that would otherwise quickly fall out of the range of human hearing.

On that Dynamic EQ tip, Audyssey's settings in the menu allow for a "Reference Level Offset". Music is not necessarily mixed at the same average and peak loudness levels as movies. They are not as strictly standardized. As a result, Audyssey Dynamic EQ will often make the bass too loud when activated and listening to music below full Reference Volume (0 dB on the volume dial). But you can adjust that so that the bass is offset by -5, -10, or -15dB. So if having Dynamic EQ turned on is obviously making the bass far too loud and overpowering the other frequencies, you can adjust for that.

Overall, I just don't see the need, and I do not recommend using a home theater bypass. When you have a very good AV Receiver like the Denon 4520, it can play 2-channel in Stereo listening mode just as well - in fact better - than any dedicated 2-channel-only pre-amp or integrated amp. And use the Stereo listening mode, not Direct or Pure Direct. There's zero reason to go messing with your bass management and auto-EQ. Those modes exist to placate the folks who believe in all this "2-channel is different from surround sound" nonsense.

Wanger, you have a great AV Receiver, you have great speakers. You already ordered a great amp (which you don't really need, but it might deliver a quieter noise floor and more dynamic headroom, so it's never a "bad" investment :D ). But if you have more money to spend, spend it where it will do you the most good. That would either be a pair of more capable subwoofers than the ones you already have, or on acoustic room treatments. You should spend your money in places where it will actually create a useful, audible difference, not on antiquated notions that some folks are still holding onto for no good reason. Like the separate amp, it might intuitively seem like a nice thing to have. And at the end of the day, it is your money and your happiness, so it's not like I can stop you if it's what you really want. And you WILL hear the sound change if you play your 2-channel recordings through a separate setup with no auto-EQ and possibly no subwoofers. It'll sound different for sure. It's just that it won't be as accurate and linear as what the 4520 could give you all by itself just by putting it in Stereo listening mode and keeping Audyssey and bass management engaged! So I don't get it, and I can't possibly recommend it as a good use of your money.

- Rob H.

Wanger 714

02-15-2015, 06:41 AM

Rob, eliwankenobi,

Thanks guys . One thing I can count on, is no sugar coating from you, Rob. Actually,I'm used to it, as my engine builder has the same "brutally honest" personality as you. He could sell many more engines if he just rolled with it, so to speak, but he won't, and same with you.
Alright ,here is the next item. I ordered the Dome tweeters instead of the RAAL. The reason is, Dina was making me very aware (that brutally honest stuff) that they are a very unforgiving speaker. Very, Very accurate. Bad recording, I might not like them. She said this after I told her my source material was going to be 70 and 80's rock and roll primarily...Movies I' will watch ,but not my primary concern .I'm starting to second guess my decision on that choice . Quite frankly, if something is recorded crappy, I play it once and it ends up collecting dust. And I have grown out of the head banger stuff. I primarily play old Genesis , Stealy Dan, Supertramp, Linda Ronstadt , Alan Parsons, that kind of music.On the heaver side ,maybe Robin Trower or Jeff Beck or Joe Satriani,. In the middle Kansas or Pink Floyd. But I also like a little progressive Jazz like Spiro Gyro or Ernie Watts. Even some country, (but I like the females, not the twangy guy county hick stuff.) So ,...am I screwing up not ordering the Raal's. I have plenty of time to change the order. Wanger

FirstReflect

02-15-2015, 07:29 AM

The choice between the NrT tweeter and the RAAL ribbon tweeter is an interesting one. There is no question that they sound different.

The RAAL is more resolving. Whether you'd prefer that or not is very tough to say. To put it in objective terms, the RAAL has faster transient response and less residual energy. As a result, I would say that the RAAL takes a bit more "getting used to" for new listeners. Familiar recordings simply do not sound the same as you would remember hearing them in the past because you've almost certainly never heard them played this cleanly before. Some people love that because it can reveal nuance and realism that was previously "masked". But it can simultaneously be a bit jarring because it will also reveal flaws in the recordings or give them a different timbre than what you remember or expect.

I suppose the simplified way of saying it is that bad recordings sound worse, and good recordings sound closer to real. The standard Towers with the NrT tweeters sound like really, really good speakers.

So that likely isn't a whole lot of help, but I hope it sort of describes the difference - as I have experienced it, anyway. If you're looking for "familiar but really, really good", then stick with the standard Towers. If you're looking for "different, things laid bare", then go for the RAAL.

merrymaid520

02-15-2015, 07:46 AM

Hi Efrain,
As you know I have the P5 and came from the 2100. Both excellent sounding preamps . I guess I'm not sure how the emotiva works but the p5 integrates the sub with its own crossover as well. I have my dual rythmiks integrated with it and my yamaha pre rather easily.

Rob,
I must respectfully disagree that a 2ch pre has no advantage over a surround reciever. I have personally A/B'd both in my system by switching imputs on the fly and the results are easily discernible. The preamp had much better imaging, more detail, and increased separation. I did this for an audio buddy of mine a while back and he was pretty surprised as well...in fact he later bought the same preamp.

The latest surround recievers do sound good, don't get me wrong, but a dedicated pre has but one job in which it excels at. It's possible this might not be the case for everyone's system. Some are more revealing than others. Who knows, maybe my yamaha rx v2600 at the time, while being a top line reciever, might not have done great at 2ch.

Brandon

Hello!

If you want a preamp, you could consider the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XSP-1, now in its second generation. Both are well reviewd and both have bass management. A benefit of the Emotiva is that the home theater bypass also includes an input for subwoofer, where the p5 does not. This makes it more difficult to integrate you subwoofer with your pure audio setup AND your home theater. The Emotiva lets you have your 2ch setup with crossover to you subwoofer(s) and when in HT bypass, it just passes along whatever comes from the subwoofer signal and you only connect your subwoofer to one device.

Speaking of connecting, which ever preamp you choose would go in between you AVR pre-outs and your power amplifier. So the preouts for front Left/Right will go to the preamp and the output from the preamp goes into the power amps for your Left/Right speakers. In case of the Emotiva amps you do the same for the subwoofers. On both preamps, you also have enough inputs to include the analog outptus of the bdp103.

A note on the subs. I believe you have two subs? If so, you still want to use the summed subwoofer output. So what bass frequencies below the crossover point are split between your two subs and both play the same signal. Both subs playing the same signal is what makes them work together to even out the bass in your room. Otherwise they will both work more against each other than together. Besides, anything below 80hz we can't locate anyways, so it's not like a low 35hz signal on the left signal will be heard coming from the left sub.

Another note/drawback. Part of setting up a subwoofer properly to integrate with your main speakers is to have them time aligned with your mains speakers. This is very difficult to do. You'll always need somekind of DSP to setup proper delays so notes are all time-aligned and arrive at your position at the same time. There are devices out there like the miniDSP 2in x 4out boxes that would let you do just this. There is some setup involved, but it is just for the subs. Your main speakers would still be playing whatever they receive from the preamp.

I hope this helps.

Final note: most of what I mentioned here (specifically the subwoofer part), I learned from First Reflect himself (Rob H) and Tom Andry on the AV Rant podcast. Just search for AV Rant on YouTube and you'll find them quickly. The podcast is dedicated to answering questions for listeners about AV. And I recommend you or anyone ro check it out.

Ok I'm running too long now, bye!

Wanger 714

02-15-2015, 09:29 AM

Marrymaid,
Thanks for the second opinion. I'm still out to lunch on this one. If I buy one and don't use it, it will just be another dust collector. But, I'll never know till I give it a go. I'm sticking with the dome on First Reflects opinion/description. Do you know if Parasound is made in the States?

CincyMat

02-16-2015, 01:56 PM

Wanger 714,

I just put together a combination home theater and 2.1 channel stereo system. I auditioned the Parasound P5 and the Emotiva XPS-1 preamps. I believe both preamps are designed in America and built in China. I went with the Emotiva as I thought it flat out sounded better with my 2 channel set up. The preamp allows me to take the front two channels of my 5.1 system and run them through a pair of Emotiva XPA-1L monoblock amps. All it does is pass the signal directly through to the amps from the front channel Left and Right and the the subwoofer from my Marantz NR1604 AVR. The Marantz powers the center and rear channels. So why did I do it like this? In my case I liked how my 2 channel system sounds and i wanted to add a subwoofer to it. My wife wanted a 5.1 surround system for movies. This way we are both happy. I divide inputs up between the systems. If it has a video component the signal goes through the Marantz. If it's a stereo input it goes through the Emotiva.

I've not tried to run stereo through the Marantz to make use of the Audyssey room correction. I've tried it in the past (10 years ago) and didn't like the stereo reproduction of the Sony AVR I had at the time. Would the Marantz sound better? Maybe, but my Emotiva set up might be the best stereo I've listened to in the past 40 years. I'm hoping the Sierra Towers with RAAL tweeters I've ordered will make it even better.

Good luck with your system.

Mark

Wanger 714

02-16-2015, 03:44 PM

CincyMat

02-17-2015, 04:54 AM

And good luck with yours. Does the Emotiva have separate bass and treble controls? I'm guessing they do. I liked the tone controls being on the front panel of the Parasound. Mark, did you audition both on your home equipment, or at the store.

I auditioned both in my home with my equipment. The Parasound won the spec and convenience battle while the Emotiva to my ears sounded much better. I think it was a case of a mismatch between the Parasound and my Emotiva amps. Couldn't get it sorted out so I returned the Parasound. The Emotiva does have bass management but on the rear of the box. Once it's set, no real reason to keep playing with it. The bass and treble controls are on the front.

I have a Rythmik F15 subwoofer and 22 year old Klipsch Forte II for my front channels. The Sierra Towers will replace the Forte II's. Provided they sound as good as or better. I think they will.

Mark

Wanger 714

02-21-2015, 03:15 PM

Audio Advisor Shipping Confirmation

: 02/17/15
Order #: 500206
Customer #: 869158

Your order has shipped:
Bill To
Ship To
JEFF

ZANESVILLE, OH 43701-9216

Item Number Description Qty Ord. Qty Shp. Qty Bck. Expected By

PAHAP5 BLK Parasound Halo P5 Stereo Preamplifier Black 1.00 1.00 0.00

Date Shipped Via
02/18/15 STANDARD SHIPPING (5-7 BUSINESS DAYS)

Tracking Number: 9612804119428615671267

Hi Guys...I'm going to try it! I have a bud contractor coming over to house next week . Horizon is a half inch to tall for the shelf under TV . So we are moving it down a little. I need some ideas from him on how to mount this 85 plus pound Outlaw amp on the barn siding right above the TV without gusseting. That way I can keep the TV back against the wall and swing it around if I want . .. Anyway...After all this, I think all I need is cables, Horizon, and a set of Towers ! Come on April.........
I have a question. (When running in 2 channel)... Using the Denon 4250's pre amp out's ...and then into the Parasound pre.... Isn't it being processed twice? Is that a good thing? Is there a way to shut all the Denons adjustments off? So the Parasound dacs handle everything? The Denons are probably better anyways. But I thought I would ask. I'm sure I don't really understand how it works...

Rob...I know, I know, (that 2 channel sound stuff).... , like dad always told me, fools and their money soon part..LOL

CincyMat

02-21-2015, 07:55 PM

What source equipment are you running into the Denon and the P5? I plug my stereo sources into my Emotiva XPS-1. The surround sound sources plug into the AVR. The Front left and right for surround sound sources are taken from the AVR pre-outs into the Home Theater Bypass inputs in the Emotiva. The front left and right amps are plugged into the Emotiva. The AVR handles the volume when in surround sound modes. The Emotiva handles the volume for stereo sources. One difference between my Emotiva and your P5 is the P5 does not have to be turned on the route Home Theater content to the front speakers.

Does this make sense? It's late.

Mark

CincyMat

02-22-2015, 02:59 AM

I have a question. (When running in 2 channel)... Using the Denon 4250's pre amp out's ...and then into the Parasound pre.... Isn't it being processed twice? Is that a good thing? Is there a way to shut all the Denons adjustments off? So the Parasound dacs handle everything? The Denons are probably better anyways. But I thought I would ask. I'm sure I don't really understand how it works...

Based on your previous quote about the Outlaw amp, here's how to hook everything together so as not to have 2 channel source material processed twice:

Connected to the Denon:

All video based sources. Blu-Ray players, cable/satellite, game consoles, etc.

Connected to the Parasound P5:

All music (stereo based) sources. Turntable, CD player, computer based music server AND the front channels and subwoofer pre-outs a from the Denon.

Denon outputs to the amplifier's center, surround right, and surround left inputs.

Parasound outputs to the the amplifier's front right and front left.

Place the Parasound in Home Theater Bypass mode to listed to multi-channel material processed by the Denon. The Parasound will directly bypass the Home Theater Bypass input to the amplifier with no additional processing.

OK that being said, how do you play a music CD from your Blu-Ray player connected to the Denon? Use home theater bypass on the Parasound. Or, if the Blu-ray player has multiple outputs see if it can be connected to both at the same time. Blu-ray content to the Denon, CD content to the Parasound.

Since I don't play CD's any longer. I rip them to my Mac Mini based music server and hook that to my DAC (via USB) then to my Emotiva pre-amp.

Good Luck. That Outlaw amp sure looks like a beast! :)

Mark

Wanger 714

02-22-2015, 04:46 AM

Based on your previous quote about the Outlaw amp, here's how to hook everything together so as not to have 2 channel source material processed twice:

Connected to the Denon:

All video based sources. Blu-Ray players, cable/satellite, game consoles, etc.

Connected to the Parasound P5:

All music (stereo based) sources. Turntable, CD player, computer based music server AND the front channels and subwoofer pre-outs a from the Denon.

Denon outputs to the amplifier's center, surround right, and surround left inputs.

Parasound outputs to the the amplifier's front right and front left.

Place the Parasound in Home Theater Bypass mode to listed to multi-channel material processed by the Denon. The Parasound will directly bypass the Home Theater Bypass input to the amplifier with no additional processing.

OK that being said, how do you play a music CD from your Blu-Ray player connected to the Denon? Use home theater bypass on the Parasound. Or, if the Blu-ray player has multiple outputs see if it can be connected to both at the same time. Blu-ray content to the Denon, CD content to the Parasound.

Since I don't play CD's any longer. I rip them to my Mac Mini based music server and hook that to my DAC (via USB) then to my Emotiva pre-amp.

Good Luck. That Outlaw amp sure looks like a beast! :)

Mark

That is what I was thinking. So if I'm on the right track.
Inputs...
1) A)Turntable (Old B&O Beogram) and B) Coaxial Outputs from the Blu-Ray ( Oppo 103) and C) Satellite XM cable will go to P-5 right? .
2) And then the Hdmi (from Oppo 103) and the Time Warner Cable Box will go to Denon. Correct.?
Outputs of Denon ...
1) The surrounds and the center come out of Denon pre -outs and go to outlaw
2) Left, and Right pre -outs come out of Denon and go to Home Theater By Pass

Outputs of P-5
Left and right Main Output comes out of P-5 and goes to Outlaw

Hooked up in this manner, and playing C/D'S off Oppo, or Satellite Radio/Turntable, I'm wondering if the Denon even needs to be turned on when playing the Parasound?

CincyMat

02-22-2015, 05:19 AM

That is what I was thinking. So if I'm on the right track.
Inputs...
1) A)Turntable (Old B&O Beogram) and B) Coaxial Outputs from the Blu-Ray ( Oppo 103) and C) Satellite XM cable will go to P-5 right? .
2) And then the Hdmi (from Oppo 103) and the Time Warner Cable Box will go to Denon. Correct.?
Outputs of Denon ...
1) The surrounds and the center come out of Denon pre -outs and go to outlaw
2) Left, and Right pre -outs come out of Denon and go to Home Theater By Pass

Outputs of P-5
Left and right Main Output comes out of P-5 and goes to Outlaw

Hooked up in this manner, and playing C/D'S off Oppo, or Satellite Radio/Turntable, I'm wondering if the Denon even needs to be turned on when playing the Parasound?

I think you've got it.

The Denon would not have to be on while running source material through the Parasound. Look at page 17 of the Oppo 103 manual to learn more about using the coaxial outputs. I'm not sure which DAC does the Digital to Analog conversion when using the coaxial output on the Oppo 103. My guess is the Parasound's built in DAC (a very good one BTW).

I think using the Oppo 103 for Blu-Ray and CD's will work being routed as you plan. I've not tried splitting a device's outputs like this but I think it will work just fine.

My Sierra Towers are shipping in late March. I'm getting antsy waiting for them. Let me know how the Horizon center speaker works for you. I didn't get one due to space limitation. Went with the Sierra 2 center channel instead. Hope all this works out for both of us.

How much snow did you get in Zanesville yesterday? We got about 6 inches here in Fayetteville (about 30 miles east of Cincinnati). Getting ready to shovel the drive way so my daughter can get back to college this afternoon.

Mark

Wanger 714

02-22-2015, 08:31 AM

Just got back from running up to moms. Looks to be about 7 inches, Stopped and helped some kid that was running to fast for the road,and his tires. He was down over the hill in a ditch. Little Cavalier took a beatin...
Comparing our up and coming systems, I did not get the RAAls ,and you chose the Sierra center. Maybe sometime we can compare them. I used to race at a track down there in Cleaves. Edgewater Park. Really liked the pits. You pitted under these huge old oak trees and the pit lanes all winded around through the trees. Neat place. NHRA took the points meet away from them a few years back so we never get down that way.

CincyMat

02-22-2015, 08:46 AM

I'm getting too old to shovel 100 feet of drive way two lanes wide. Yikes!!

I've heard of Edgewater Park. Never been to a NHRA event, might have to make it to one this summer. Always looking for interesting reasons to go for a ride on my bike.

You're welcome to stop by and listen to my system if you're ever in the area. I went with the RAAL as I've always liked that style of tweeter. I hope they sound great. I don't want to be the first person returning a set of RAAL towers. That would just not be right after waiting 6 weeks to get them.

Best of luck with the Parasound P5. Let me know how it sounds to you. Seemed to have too much bass for me. But that's all dependent on the room and the speakers.

Have a good one!

Mark

Wanger 714

03-16-2015, 02:54 PM

The Towers are going to be built next week possibly, so I got a start on this today...Bass sweeps, and some wiring of the new amp, Parasound P-5 and Cambridge 651C.. I'm just jumping everything together with all the wiring I had laying around. After we mount the Amp to the wall above the TV I will order all the Blue cabling... Its a hot mess right now...that's for sure.. Thanks for all the input... I printed off all my "instructions" from you guys and have them at hand....Jeff

119011911192

Wanger 714

03-17-2015, 11:12 AM

One problem I ran into was the best place for the subs,well the right sub, was over there where first reflect told me might be a good place... But behind that Bar is shelving that is full of liquor bottles, glasses, mixing utensils etc...Everything seemed to want to rattle. I hope it doesn't be a constant problem. I'm not starting a dry entertainment area!

markie

03-17-2015, 12:05 PM

Wanger 714

03-20-2015, 02:33 PM

Apparently there is a positive correlation between the presence of partly filled liquor bottles and the perception of good sound. ;)

I hope you try out your new electronics on your old speakers, to see if the change from your receiver to your new separates has made a marked difference.

Good luck!
Mark

Thanks Mark!!

I can't drink enough beer to like this Denon...I think I'm going to part ways with it (anybody want it?)LOL

I stumbled on a review from digital trends back when it was released and I gotta say..I agree with this guy

HIGHS

Smooth, fatigue-free treble
Good bass clarity and definition
Well-thought out feature set
Outstanding video processor
RATING

Our Score 7 out of 10
User Score 4 out of 10

LOWS

Audio performance outclassed by the competition
Sound lacks dynamics and punch :(
Recessed, flat, and lifeless-sounding midrange :(

"Unless the Denon AVR-4520CI’s features are exactly what your system needs, we’d recommending looking elsewhere for a top-tier A/V receiver"

Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/receivers-separates-amps-reviews/denon-avr-4520ci-review/#ixzz3UxjmOtuD
Follow us: @digitaltrends on Twitter | digitaltrendsftw on Facebook

I don't want to step on anybody's toes, but for my taste...I don't like it. Too bad its taken me 2 years to figure this out. But I really was hoping it was something in my adjustments...I have followed all the suggestions guys....And it IS better. It has a fuller sound, and its.....nicer. But it is a step backwards from my old unit. The Marantz was a warm sound. This is bright and thin... Subs done right or not... I think that's what helped the most, the location and setting of both of them. I think the pre amp section of the Denon is just not for my liking...

So I'm movin on.. I called Audio Advisers and had every intention of purchasing a Marantz 8801 Pre as I keep hearing how good it is musically. This guy wanted to know the whole story, and 20 minutes later he offered his opinion. He said lets hold on to purchasing the Marantz for a little while longer. You can always send my recommendation back if it don't work out, but Id like you to try a Parasound P-7. He said it was built for exactly what your trying to accomplish. It has some downfalls, It does not have automatic equalization like Audyssey, and it only has one sub out.But it was made for music first, theater second . Most all others are just the opposite. He offered his help to set it up and gave me his direct line. We will work together over the phone to get all my inputs and such set up right coming out of my Oppo processors and doing the white noise deal on the system with the Slp meter... Hey I''ll give it a try. I've got 30 days to see. I still may end up with something different. But I'm not giving up. And actually ,its fun try'in new stuff, so what the heck.... I'm thinking the Ascends will be here before "decision time" is here. I'll keep ya posted. Any advise?

Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/receivers-separates-amps-reviews/denon-avr-4520ci-review/#ixzz3UxibQ97N
Follow us: @digitaltrends on Twitter | digitaltrendsftw on Facebook

markie

03-20-2015, 09:11 PM

Wanger 714

03-21-2015, 03:52 PM

Thanks for the update Jeff. Bummer that the Denon couldn't be made to sound to your liking.

I'm curious, did the Outlaw amps represent much of an improvement over the Denon's own amps, or was it more or less a wash?

I've heard many times from people that they find the preamp to make the biggest difference. I guess this might be the case for you. Given that, the Parasound P-7 could very well deliver the goods. Besides the Marantz 8801 I would give eye to Emotiva's XMC-1 which is focused on sound above all else. I''m thinking it would best both the Marantz and the Parasound but I haven't heard accounts of those those may have compared them.

With all the experience you are getting from all your experimenting thus far you might be doing AV installs for your friends at this rate!

Thanks again for keeping us posted, and good luck!

Mark
Hey Mark....
I'll look up that XMC. Maybe they don't handle them, and that's why it was not mentioned..I'll see.
On the Outlaw. It changed it. But not in the way I expected. As far a being loud and such, I didn't really try. the Denon is so bright that its just not worth it, or enjoyable to turn it up. I could tell it was going to be really powerful. But it hurts your ears its so bright. Plus my M&Ks are going on 10 years old and I don't want to bust one of them.. That part is just as bad as before. Or at least its not good, Lets say that.. I thought it would have more punch and fill the middle in...But not so. But, what I did notice, was the silence....Its so quiet. In "between" the notes. Hard for a novice like me to explain my thoughts. But its like the difference between a record and a disc. In the quiet parts, in between the instruments and in the less busy parts... I guess you could say, its quieter.
Parasound showed up today. But working the weekend and after work I come home to....no power. Will have to wait till tomorrow.. Will keep posting...Jeff

Kisakuku

03-23-2015, 11:01 AM

I called Audio Advisers and had every intention of purchasing a Marantz 8801 Pre as I keep hearing how good it is musically.

Definitely some irony there, as 8801 and 4520 share the vast majority of their internal components and architecture.

Wanger 714

03-23-2015, 02:45 PM

I know. You don't have to tell me. Don't make a lick of sense,but the Marantz that I originally had was a very warm, high impact , musical piece. All my issues began when I purchased the Denon. The Marantz was antiquated compared to the Denon but the sound was just the opposite..They might share alot of things, but musical sound is not one of them...

This is a little bit off post. I was a heavy equipment mechanic for 25 of the 35 years that I worked for Ralston Purina. ( Now ConAgra Foods.) The fleet of fork lift trucks that I maintained was 25 Yale lift trucks... and 25 Hyster Lifts. Guess what. Just like Marantz and Denon, they were owned by the same company. And they "shared" many ,many parts. Had the same GM engines, transmissions, valve bodys, electronics, and instrumentation. But they were two totally different trucks. They were on different frames, steering was very similar, but not exact. They drove different. Had different mast assembly's so they lifted differently and at different speeds. . They had the same brake assembly so they stopped the same. But if you didn't know they were owned and built by the same corporation , you would never tell it by their operation...Because the engineering staffs did not do EVERYTHING exactly the same. And they did not have the same goals, or preferences. Engineering staffs...you know, the body count.. were not the same.. And it DOES have an effect..
Now how this relates to other things in this old life I'm not so sure. But I was willing to find out,(and try another Marantz) ...... got talked out of it...at least for the moment that is

markie

03-23-2015, 04:30 PM

Very good points Jeff, well put forth.
I can't wait until you try that Parasound. Even though it's all analog and doesn't have equalization it may still be a winner, time will tell!
Mark

Wanger 714

03-23-2015, 04:51 PM

Next up is that Emotiva Mark. I looked at it. Nice piece. I Really like its made in USA. I have Wednesday and Thursday off, Ill be a listen'en . I'll let ya know...Jeff

Wanger 714

03-25-2015, 08:47 AM

Latest...

Spent from 8 till noon trying out Parasound P-7. The brightness is gone that I hated with the Denon. Mr. Denon went to the state of Washington on E-Bay Ha Ha...The Parasound sounds very smooth. Really clean with out the edginess. But all this manual EQ that I volunteered to do,every time I want to fiddle....... Well,I'm having second thoughts. And it did not have second output for Sub. No tuner and wife wants Sirrius on it... Just too many things.. I knew all this when I bought it ...Oh well.... So back in the box it went, and Audio Advisers paid for the return shipping, and a Marantz 8801 is on its way. I tried my Oppo 103 and my Cambridge 651 C CD player back to back and I still prefer the Oppo. Its just livelier and a little more forward. I know Mark, I said an Emotivia was next. But just really curious about this Marantz. .. To be continued.....

markie

03-25-2015, 11:50 AM

Jeff I'm curious as well about the Marantz, whether it is like the Denon in terms of sound or better, more like the Parasound.

Assuming you tried home theatre, did you notice a difference in, say, the clarity of the centre channel with the Parasound vs the Denon? Any other things? Was it as silent as the Denon?

Regarding the XMC-1. It won't have some of the built in features of the Denon or Marantz, like Sirius, but there are workarounds for that. For instance given you have wifi you could plug either a Google Chromecast (about $50) or an Apple TV (about $100) into an HDMI port on the XMC and get Sirius that way, via computer or smartphone. A bit more cumbersome but quite doable. Again, good luck!

Mark

CincyMat

03-28-2015, 08:15 AM

Jeff,

Have your towers arrived? Mine are on the way. Good luck getting the other components squared away. It gets confusing.

Mark

Wanger 714

03-28-2015, 01:16 PM

Jeff,

Have your towers arrived? Mine are on the way. Good luck getting the other components squared away. It gets confusing.

Mark

Same here Mark... UPS shipping confirmation is saying Thursday April 2nd... The 8801 is being held @ Fed Ex as we both work and it requires a signature. I'll pick it up Monday after work. Busy Busy Busy...
Working on getting a 2 inch thick plank of wood 56 inches long prepped and stained for the Amp and Turntable. I want it to match that old barn siding and not fall off the wall with all that weight.... Will talk later ...Jeff

Wanger 714

04-04-2015, 08:52 AM

Hi everybody

I received my Raal Towers and Horizon last night. The Marantz 8801 a few days before..I previously had set up the Marantz and played around with it on my old M&K's. So I was ready to get going as soon as the Ascends showed.. I will write up some type of review in a couple months. But I'm sure everybody has noticed I tend to be critical on things. I didn't like this, don't like that. I have sent two Audiophile grade Pre-Amps, and a top line CD Player back to the dealer.I sold what many consider a really nice AVR on E- Bay at a bargain basement price just so I wouldn't have to look at it anymore. And by the way, the Marantz 8801/Outlaw7500 is 10 fold better than that ( I now can say it) inferior Denon. I really like it . I will NEVER own another Denon piece in my lifetime. It probably was just that one model, but they just ran off at least one customer that's for sure. Its amazing how different Marantz verses Denon is . Being owned by the same company means zilch.
So I just came up from downstairs and spent the last hour fiddling.I hook them up, run Audyssey's. It set everything kind of different than I expected. The Tower's are both Large Full range and the M&K B-1600's surrounds are Small at 60 hz . I did exactly as First Reflect told me to do. Set Dynamic EQ to on and Dynamic Volume to off. But for now, I left all the Large and HZ stuff set at Audyssey's recommendations until I talk to someone about it. Now that we are talking about the Towers and not a bookshelf, do I still set them to Small and 80?...
Now I was finally to the point of firing this thing up..... Brought my wife down as a spectator.. She didn't mind as she was sitting at kitchen table doing our taxes. So she was very willing to get the heck away from that..So I push the button..... It first comes on to a Sonic Commercial on Cable Satellite TV. Two people are sitting in a car,talking and eating a hot dog or something. Upon the first few seconds of playing, maybe 5 seconds, I looked at her and said..."Son-of -a..... -Bitch!" She immediately said..."I can hear them chewing".
And she was correct!. The voices are flat down as clear as I can try to describe. They are crisp, really crisp, without any brightness. Sound stage is huge. You can't hear one speaker, you hear them all... I will report back after I get to mess with the music side of it. But so far, I am finding out what dynamic means... Let me know about those settings if you would. I'd appreciate it...Jeff

Kisakuku

04-04-2015, 09:45 AM

Its amazing how different Marantz verses Denon is . Being owned by the same company means zilch.

Now that we are talking about the Towers and not a bookshelf, do I still set them to Small and 80?...

They are not just owned by the same company. 4520 and 8801 are essentially the same unit except for the amps in 4520 and HDAMs in 8801.

Yes, set fronts to small and cross at 80Hz to start with.

CincyMat

04-04-2015, 11:19 AM

Hi Jeff,

My towers and Sierra 2 center arrived yesterday. Going through speaker placement with the towers now to get the sound stage to my liking. So far I'm very impressed with how clear the voices are when watching a movie. Much better than my previous Klipsch set up.

I'll write my review after listening for a while. So far so good.

Mark

natetg57

04-04-2015, 12:55 PM

Yes, set fronts to small and cross at 80Hz to start with.

In addition, try a 60Hz crossover too. (For your front three) I'm using that with my Sierra-2s and like the way it sounds.

Wanger 714

04-04-2015, 01:44 PM

CincyMat

04-04-2015, 01:53 PM

Ok. Will do. What does that mean again. Everything 60 and above goes to the Ascends? And ONLY below 60 goes to the Subs? So changing it from 80 to 60 would allow the Ascends to produce more bottom end? Or am I ass backwards

You've got it right. Anything higher goes the the Ascends. That is if you have them set to small. If set to large all signal goes to them with lower than the set point going to the subs. Most of what I've read says set to small and let the subs do their thing.

Mark

Audiolover458

08-23-2015, 11:59 AM

Wanger 714

08-23-2015, 01:40 PM

Wanger714, you never shared whether you performed all the tasks that First Reflect Suggested and how that turned out. I am eager to know because I tried most of them except the Reset piece and it did improve my overall experience but I have my main listening position too close to the wall and need some acoustic treatments to make the room sound better. Too much ECHO in my room from the SUBs.

Hi Audiolover 458

First off ,I would like to thank First Reflect-Essneff-Markie-Ar2AX-Petmotel-Harro-Muzz-Eliwankeonobi-Marrymaid520-Cincymat-Kisakuku and Natetg57. I hope I didn't miss anyone . All you folk helped me sort through a total changeover in my system .I went from a system that was just average. To something that I really, truly enjoy. I spent some money along the way . But thanks to many of you, I tried to keep what I had, working to get it to top notch, and then if I wasn't satisfied, only then did I move on to something else. Audio Advisers was helpful also, as I sent 2 preamps back and a CD Player in the process. Yes Audiolover , I did everything ( Up to my ability) that First Reflex steered me towards. If you are asking about the Denon 4520 issues, after trying vigorously to accomplish it to my taste, I finally gave up and sold it . I just did not like the sound. To me, it might have been clean, but at the expense of fullness. My Marantz 8801/Outlaw has totally different sound characteristics. Its still clean, and quiet, but with the full, room filling , thump that I like in a system . I'm not done with this system. I have 2 F12 Rythmics and I will purchase 2 more over the winter to finish it. If you remember , I have a hard room to not have voids in. I don't really need them, but I want to try them.
As far as the Ascends. I continue to be wow'ed by them . The voices and the utter clarity just makes you sit there and smile . I was never a movie guy , but this system has me heading to the blu-ray isle 10 times more than before. And if the movie is not "mixed" correctly , or just kind of blaa, I judge the movie buy the soundtrack as much as the content... That never happened before. Honestly I rarely watched movies. Music wise, I have found my liking to be without the use of Audyssey. I listen pretty loud, about -6 or thereabouts , and at that volume, setting up the EQ myself is preferred. To me ,Audyssey just sounds a little "splattered". ..(Although I use Audyssey for Movies) .. Thanks everybody !

FirstReflect

08-26-2015, 04:08 PM

Right on!

:D

Really glad to know that you're now enjoying your system and that the pile of information and suggestions we've all heaped upon you resulted in what we're all aiming for!

Great gear, then positioned and set up properly, really can enhance one's life and sense of enjoyment. This stuff ain't cheap, but it's also VERY easy to find products costing much, much more that still won't deliver the same level of enjoyment. So there's a lot of VALUE in the products you're using now. And I love that :)

- Rob H. - AV Rant Podcast Co-host