Sierra-2 Center match to RAAL Towers?

[gln2]

Reading forum posts, I'm surprised that I have not seen discussions about using the Sierra-2 Center matched with the RAAL Towers as the front mains. Is this because they do not mate very well?

I do not have the room to place the Horizon on top of my cabinet. (The WAF would be a major issue, and I would have to wall mount my plasma to move it higher.) Placing the S2 in my cabinets center speaker opening would function better aesthetically. But, if the sound signature of the two are different I think I would be better forgoing the center and staying with the phantom center sound (4.1) for movies.

Is the S2 a very good center for the RAAL Towers, or just a good center with them?

(Details: The center would be sitting on a 14" high center shelf compartment with my ears 10.5 feet away and 30" high. Tower ribbons are 7ft apart. I would angle the center speaker upward.)

Thanks,
Glenn

[FirstReflect]

You're right! It is surprising that this configuration hasn't come up more often.

From my personal, hyper-critical listening tests, I think the Sierra-2 Center would be a very good Center for a pair of Towers RAAL. The timbral and tonal match of the Sierra-2 to the Towers RAAL and Horizon RAAL is excellent. There won't be any big mismatch or a really obvious change in tone as sounds pan across the front. They sound FAR more similar than different.

Again, I was hyper-critical, and the Towers RAAL and Horizon RAAL do still hold a slight edge. They're just that nth degree clearer than the Sierra-2. But you really have to listen for it.

Given that you'd be using a placement below seated ear level and then having the Center angled upwards so that it is pointing at your face, I cannot guarantee to you that pans across the front will sound IDENTICAL in all 3 speakers and completely seamless. Even if you were to use a Horizon RAAL in that position, if you're a very critical listener, you still might be able to spot the slight change in sound as a pan transitions from Left to Center to Right or vice versa. So I don't want to go promising that the Sierra-2 Center will be as completely seamless as your phantom center image just using your stereo pair of Towers RAAL.

But if what you're after are the benefits of having a physical Center speaker - namely having the dialogue locked to the screen, even if you're sitting to the left or the right of the sweet spot - then I can easily support using the Sierra-2 Center with the Towers RAAL. The tone and timbre match is really good, so I would have no qualms with that :)

[gln2]

Thank you FR for taking the time to respond. Glad to hear that you're hyper-critical (like me!), and feel they're very similar sounding.

Now I would like to know if I would gain anything. Locking the dialogue to the screen (the main reason for using a center) is not something I am missing and therefore would not need to add.

Anyone listen to movies without a center for a while, and then added a center speaker later? How did it change the movier listening experience?

[Jhnsmj]

Glenn, I've got a Sierra-2 center on order for exactly this purpose - to use with RAAL towers in a cabinet where the Horizon won't fit. Just waiting for the US cabinets to get to Dave. It's possible that's one reason there hasn't been much chatter on this topic yet: I think the US cabinet finishes match the towers. At least that's what I've been waiting for, black bamboo.

I've been using my old NHT center with the towers, and it just can't keep up, so for anything musical we tend to turn the center off.

Will be glad to report once the Sierra-2 arrives.

Mark

[gln2]

Great, I would love to hear your impressions.
You should try changing your A/V receiver settings to 4.1 channel only, and see if not using the center actually results in an improvement, since you have somewhat of a miss-match there. That would be interesting to check out.

Edit: Moving from your un-matched center to the new S2 will certainly be an improvement. Would be interesting to see what happens going from no center for a few weeks, and then add the new S2 center.

[FirstReflect]

Other than the ability to independently make the Center speaker louder (for boosting or cutting dialogue vs. all the rest of the soundtrack), if you are sitting such that you already have a very good stereo, phantom Center, I personally would not say that you would be gaining anything.

I certainly think that the Center speaker can make sense. If you have seats that are off to one side or the other, it's very useful and important. If you don't have a very convincing phantom Center from your stereo Mains, it's very useful and important. If you want to be able to adjust the loudness of the Center independently, it's very useful and important.

But I always laugh at the oh so common phrase that the Center speaker is the most important speaker. I mean, that comment gets thrown around in reviews as though it's just a fact and something that everybody knows and agrees with. Well, I completely disagree! The Center speaker is the only speaker in the system that you can completely remove without even noticing it! Yes, there's the caveat that you must be sitting in the sweet spot for that to be true. But still, the Center speaker is far from being the most important in the whole system. It just happens to get a lot of audio sent to it when it's present. But your Front Left & Right Mains can handle all of that Center channel audio every bit as well :)

As we've mentioned, adding the Center can actually degrade your sound quality. I'd actually venture that that is the more common result. Due to the compromised placement of most Center speakers, it's very difficult to get its sound to perfectly match the Front Mains, even if it's literally the exact same model of speaker as those two!

So if you're hearing a very convincing phantom Center, you never sit far enough to either side that the phantom image collapses, and you're already happy with the clarity and intelligibility of the sound with no desire to be able to boost or cut the Center volume, then I would just stick with the phantom center! It is, in my opinion, something that more people ought to do. The Center speaker has its place and its usefulness, but you should never feel obligated to have one just because the channel exists. You don't necessarily need it ;)

[gln2]

Wow, your 3rd paragraph specifically is exactly what I've felt for quite some time! Everything you've so clearly stated is what I had felt. I've just wondered if possibly I'm incorrect, since I just have not had the empirical evidence to have proved it (ie: adding & then subtracting a matched center).

Your point at the end regarding the "intelligibility of the sound", which of course pertains to dialogue, is actually an area which could be of benefit to me. I do find it difficult to understand some dialogue, certainly not all. (And my HF hearing is pretty well shot!) So, possibly getting an S2 center could give me clearer vocals versus using the stereo front pair alone.



Thanks.

[FirstReflect]

Happy to offer some confirmation and support :)

You bring up a good point, though, which is the possibility that a physical Center could improve dialogue intelligibility, even if you're getting a good stereo, phantom image. Aside from simply being able to make the Center speaker independently louder, there's also the technical aspect of being able to have the Center speaker straight on axis.

With the Front Left & Right Main speakers, you are most often sitting a bit off axis. Naturally, you have the option to toe in your Front Main speakers so that they are aiming straight at your face. But most people do not use quite that aggressive a toe in, and thus, they are sitting somewhat off axis from the Front Main speakers.

Meanwhile, the Center will be pointed straight at you. So there is that technical aspect. However, in the case of the Ascend Towers, they have very wide and even dispersion. So being a bit off axis really does not alter their sound much at all.

The other technical aspect, which I've alluded to by talking about placement, is differing room acoustics effects for the different positions. One good example happens in my own system. I'm using custom Horizon RAAL speakers for my Front Mains and Center. They all have identical response in their bass output. But that bass response is strongly different in room due to the placement and room acoustics.

From my primary seat, my Center speaker has a big suck out at 70Hz. It's essentially silent at that seat at 70Hz because there happens to be a sound wave cancellation right at that point. In contrast, my Front Main speaker sound linear down to below 60Hz. But then there's some unevenness around the 50Hz region. And it is not symmetrical in both the Left and Right. Nor is it uniform from seat to seat.

So even though the speakers themselves are all playing the same thing and performing the same, they do not sound identical at the seat.

So none of that changes the previous caveats that I listed when it comes to using a phantom Center. All of these technical matters can merely explain why someone might still hear a difference when switching between a physical Center and a phantom Center ;)

[Jhnsmj]

You should try changing your A/V receiver settings to 4.1 channel only, and see if not using the center actually results in an improvement, since you have somewhat of a miss-match there. That would be interesting to check out.

Thanks for the suggestion. Had to ask myself why I hadn't done that before. After buying the towers more than a year ago, I got in the habit of using 2.1 for anything musical, 5.1 for sports and movies. A couple of months ago, we replaced our old NHT surrounds with HTM-200s. So now 4.1 all the time makes sense, but I was still stuck in old habits.

[dtsequoia]

Hey guys, I have been a forum lurker for a while and when I saw this thread I go excited! Haha, when I can afford to upgrade to the RAAL towers I was torn between the horizon and the S2 and the using the CBM-170s four my other 4 surrounds. So, Gln2 and Jhnsmj, let me know how that set up sounds.

I have a big room too with vaulted ceilings 12x22 with my listening position about 12.5 ft from the center and that's where my being torn came in. I was worried about the speaker (S2) being able to disperse adequately. Anyway, any suggestions?

[gln2]

Well, I had purchased my RAAL Towers just over 1 year ago. Plan was to using possibly use them as a music stereo pair only in my L/R, and if not move them into my movie media room. After purchase realized adding equip into L/R would not work, so I put them in the TV room. With the benefit of hindsight today, I wish I had not purchased the Towers and instead today I would be purchasing 3 S-2's across the front. I believe I would have been happiest with foregoing Towers for the mains, and instead have 3 identical front S2 bookshelf speakers rather than 2 RAAL Towers + S-2 center.

Glenn

[dtsequoia]

Thanks for that Glenn. After you made your post, I thought about what you said and read some more of the reviews on the forums of the S2's. I think I may go the route you suggested. Instead of the towers and using my current sub (an Aperion Bravus II 10D) and replace that with a Rythmik F12SE for the low end. I listen to music 85% of the time and my wife and I watch movies and TV about 15%. Anyway, thanks!

[gln2]

To clarify a bit, I am NOT at all unhappy with my RAAL Towers. They work very well in my HT room. My sound is quite good, even without running a center (4.1). So, for anyone that cannot place a matched speaker dead center under the TV/screen or just wishes not to have a center, having a very good tower as your left & right main speakers works very well. You will get plenty of volume, dynamic punch (with added screams many times from the wife!) and more lower bass output versus a bookshelf speaker pair. For the movie lover, nothing beats having great quality speakers such as this, paired with an above average amp, and a good sub.

Funny, as I finished typing the above it occurred to me that maybe I should skip the thought of adding a center speaker and instead put the $ into the purchase of a better performing subwoofer, such as the Rythmik F12. Great minds think alike, dtsequoia! I think this might give me a better sonic return., as I still feel I may not gain much by the addition of a center. I would continue to run my old Velodyne along with the new sub. One front left-side wall and the other one rear right-side wall.

(Man, so many variables in Home Theatre setup. 2 channel audio playback was much simpler.)