Sierra-1 Being Left Out?

[sonicboom]

Hi there Ascend Family,

With all the well-justified excitement over the Sierra-2, isn't the Sierra-1 getting left out?

Let me put it this way:
I am looking to upgrade from my CMT 340 LCR / CBM 170 surrounds (SE series) 5.1 set-up. The planned upgrade path is towards getting Sierra-1s for LCR. However, I'm starting to feel that "settling" with the Sierra-1s will cause me to miss out on a lot.

My inquiry is: How much of an upgrade will I expect upgrading from the SE series to "only" the Sierra-1s?

Having two teenagers in the family, I cannot help but have iTunes occupy a large % of our music files with the occasional movie thrown into the mix. Room size is 12 x 18 x 8.

Is an upgrade to Sierra-1s even recommended and shooting for Sierra-2s overkill for the stated purpose?

Please advise. Thanks a lot.

Daniel

[rifmon]

Hi there Ascend Family,

With all the well-justified excitement over the Sierra-2, isn't the Sierra-1 getting left out?

Let me put it this way:
I am looking to upgrade from my CMT 340 LCR / CBM 170 surrounds (SE series) 5.1 set-up. The planned upgrade path is towards getting Sierra-1s for LCR. However, I'm starting to feel that "settling" with the Sierra-1s will cause me to miss out on a lot.

My inquiry is: How much of an upgrade will I expect upgrading from the SE series to "only" the Sierra-1s?

Having two teenagers in the family, I cannot help but have iTunes occupy a large % of our music files with the occasional movie thrown into the mix. Room size is 12 x 18 x 8.

Is an upgrade to Sierra-1s even recommended and shooting for Sierra-2s overkill for the stated purpose?

Please advise. Thanks a lot.

Daniel

Well I feel your dilemma.

I was on the phone with Dina the other day and she made a point that the Sierra 2 will not be replacing or phasing out the 1's. I thought about that and it made a lot of sense. After all, the improvement from the Sierra 1 to the Sierra 2 is not a slight improvement but neither is the price jump. The two speakers and their respective prices gives the buyer a distinct option. To me they appear to be an altogether a different speaker simply sharing the same nice cabinet. So it makes sense to retain the basic version.

I think that because they both share the same cabinet and almost the same name one would think it's just an improved product but it's more than that. It is a higher end and higher choice product; With the appropriate higher price.

I have the Sierra 1's and I got to say they are spectacular! They are way better than what their price is. I can assume so are the 2's.

Last year at this time I had three 170 SE's and two classic 200's with a subwoofer and I sold them all to get the Sierra's. They are noticeably better and I do not for a minute miss that set up. I had and loved that set up for 12 years.

I know me. Haha. I WILL get the 2's at some point. Whether through an upgrade or purchase. But I certainly can enjoy what I have.

If you have the money go for the 2's. If it's too much the 1's will not disappoint!

[Mag_Neato]

Daniel, having owned the Sierra-1's from their beginning and doing both the NrT and now the -2 upgrades I will say this: The 1's are a great speaker and a definite upgrade from the CMT's, you will be pleased with the improvement. Smooth from top to bottom, deeper and tight bass and more punch.

The NrT adds airer highs and slightly more forward mids but pretty much the same bass. The highs are more dynamic than the 1's and don't become compressed at high levels but can be really sharp at times. Nature of the dome.

The 2's improve on the entire speaker. Bass is not quite as deep but it is tighter with greater detail. The mids are incredible. Big, open and detailed assited by the amazing RAAL ribbon tweeter which extends well beyond the NrT tweeter. These are incredibly dynamic and when you feed them more power they simply become bigger, not sounding loud yet they are. Instead of feeling like backing down the volume because they are playing loudly, I want to turn them up even more. They are that good. The realism is what sets the 2's apart from the pack.

Sorry if this makes your decision harder. If you are the type who can be happy with the entry point of a very good speaker then the 1's are a great choice. If you ever get a hint of "What if" then skip to the top of the ladder!

[curtis]

...not sounding loud yet they are. Instead of feeling like backing down the volume because they are playing loudly, I want to turn them up even more...
When I first heard the Sierra-1's...this is exactly how I felt about them, but during our demo, Dave said the 2's can handle more power and play even louder...after reaching 105+dB peaks at 12' in Ascend's well treated demo room, that was very evident.

sonicboom...I echo Mag_Neato's feelings between the Sierra-1 and Sierra-2.

The Sierra-1 is still a great speaker...it is all a matter of budget.

[eliwankenobi]

I could add the suggestion for you to go according to what your budget allows... If you get the Sierra-1s now, you can later upgrade to the 2s and the added cost will be less than buy the speaker again and selling the 1s. Plus you get credit for returning the S1 parts. And you are basically paying the extra cost in going from the 1 to the 2 (shipping costs not included). But if your budget can swing you going for the 2s why not get the best now?

Anywho... The fact that the 2s are better than the 1s, does not make what everybody have said over the years about the 1s any less true.

I got a pair of S1s NrT used like brand new and they are amazing! (I should be getting my S2 upgrades today hopefully) but if you can only go for the 1s I think you will be satisfied!

[FirstReflect]

I blame Dave's ridiculously low pricing for this dilemma...

;)

Look, if the Sierra-1 cost $2000/pair (like they should), and the Sierra-2 cost $5500/pair (like they should), I don't think anyone would be as confused and concerned. If the prices were that far apart, it would be very easy to decide whether you could afford the more expensive Sierra-2!

The "problem" is that Ascend has kept the price points very close together, all things considered. Going from around $900/pair to around $1500/pair - it's still a clear price gap, but it's tantalizingly affordable!

I know I'll probably catch some flack for saying this, but, to my ears, the Sierra-1 are Ascend's most "coloured" speakers. They're still far more accurate and neutral than they are "voiced", but I still find them to be a little bit less than truly neutral.

I'm pretty darn sure I recall Dave alluding to having wanted the Sierra-1 to be a bookshelf sized speaker that could deliver satisfying bass and impact without a subwoofer for music. To my ear, it's got a bit of that low end "bloom" that makes it sound "warm" and "pleasing" but not strictly neutral. As a result, the midrange sounds just a touch "relaxed" or "forgiving". And the standard tweeter, while clear and detailed, doesn't quite have that "air around the notes" level of transient response.

I've really liked the Sierra-1 NrT. The improved tweeter brings that added level of clarity to the treble, while also giving the midrange better clarity, as well.

But I also have my custom Sierra bookshelf speakers with the RAAL 70-20XR and the Tower/Horizon dedicated midrange driver in them. And in comparing them directly with my Sierra-1 NrT speakers, there's just that extra level of uncanny realism that we're all talking about so much. It really is just that magical effect of going from "speakers" to "real life". It makes your brain kind of wig out -- haha.

I'll be ordering a couple of Sierra-2 upgrade kits tomorrow. I'm VERY eager to compare them directly to the Sierra-1 NrT, my custom Sierra bookshelf speakers that have the Tower/Horizon drivers in them, and also to my custom Sierra Horizon RAAL Front speakers. To be honest, I don't know how completely flawless I need the sonic match to be: I intend to ultimately only use the Sierra-2 as Surround, Back and Front Height channels. I still maintain that those positions do not require a 100% sonic match, since they primarily provide ambience and the occasional sound effect.

But the whole reason I'm even considering upgrading my Sierra-1 NrT speakers is because the difference between the Sierra-1 NrT and the Tower/Horizon RAAL driver speakers IS noticeable. I have to stress, it is NOT "night and day" noticeable. The Sierra-1 NrT are still GREAT speakers! I cannot stress that enough. But there's a difference. If a sound pans around the room, it's kind of like it goes, "real life, real life, real life, speaker, speaker, speaker, speaker, real life, real life" -- haha. So, my only real goal is to create that uncanny sense of realism ALL around me.

By all accounts thus far, the Sierra-2 are delivering that kind of experience! But I've also seen one or two mentions of the Towers/Horizon RAAL still sounding at least a little bit different than the Sierra-2. Will that difference be enough that I will ultimately decide to just put RAAL 70-20XR ribbons and Tower/Horizon dedicated midrange drivers into ALL of my bookshelf speakers? Perhaps. That is why I'm starting with just one pair of upgrade kits! I want to test it out and compare with my own ears :D

But getting back to the OP's question: it's not that the Sierra-1 are being "ignored" or that they suddenly became worse speakers. If the Sierra-2 cost significantly more (and they really would if it weren't for Dave literally making pretty much no extra profit amount, ie. the margin on the Sierra-2 is WAY lower than on the Sierra-1), I don't think you'd have this conundrum. The "problem" is pricing the Sierra-2 so aggressively that they're well within reach!

To be blunt, I think the only thing that makes sense is to hear the speakers for yourself so that you will know exactly whether or not you think the extra money for the Sierra-2 is worth it. Yes, you'd end up losing a bit of money to shipping charges, but that is easily worth the confidence and peace of mind you will gain in return, IMO.

Ascend is super accommodating. I can't promise the following on their behalf, but I'd be willing to wager they'd consider doing the following for you:

ask if they can send you a pair of Sierra bookshelf speakers - one being a Sierra-1, and the second being a Sierra-2. Yes, one of each. Again, I can't promise that Ascend will actually do that for you, but if nothing else, we already know for sure that they could simply sell you a Sierra-1 Center and a Sierra-2 Center, so there's no reason why you couldn't get one of each speaker.

Compare them head to head. No, you won't be able to compare stereo imaging qualities. But the real point here is for you to experience the added realism of the Sierra-2, and for you to determine if you think it's worth all the extra money.

Once you've decided, it's as simple as shipping one of them back, and getting the matching speaker sent to you. This should keep your shipping costs to an absolute minimum, and your initial layout of cash will also be kept as low as possible.

Of course, you could also just order a pair of each and send back the pair you decide not to keep! Easy peasy :) But that means a bigger payout up front prior to the refund, and possible just a bit more in total shipping costs.

Anywho, the point is that nothing beats hearing the difference for yourself. If I had only ever heard the Sierra-1 NrT speakers? I'd have no complaints. It is ONLY by comparison to my custom Horizon RAAL driver speakers that I realized there is still room for improvement! But when you can get that sort of improvement for the price of the Sierra-2? It's just so compelling! That's why we're all wigging out over them :D But there's no need to fret about it. Hear them for yourself, and then you can make an extremely confident decision!

[Kisakuku]

ask if they can send you a pair of Sierra bookshelf speakers - one being a Sierra-1, and the second being a Sierra-2. Yes, one of each. Again, I can't promise that Ascend will actually do that for you, but if nothing else, we already know for sure that they could simply sell you a Sierra-1 Center and a Sierra-2 Center, so there's no reason why you couldn't get one of each speaker.

Compare them head to head. No, you won't be able to compare stereo imaging qualities. But the real point here is for you to experience the added realism of the Sierra-2, and for you to determine if you think it's worth all the extra money.

Once you've decided, it's as simple as shipping one of them back, and getting the matching speaker sent to you. This should keep your shipping costs to an absolute minimum, and your initial layout of cash will also be kept as low as possible.


Aren't they sold as matched pairs, both in terms of finish and frequency response? Not a huge deal, but still.

[sonicboom]

Thanks for the insightful replies, guys.

Let me just bring up the intended purpose of the set-up again: Majority of my music comes from iTunes. Add to the mix the occasional (maybe twice a month) movies via DVD/Blu-ray/Netflix.

Given the above purpose for the set-up, will anything called "Sierra" be a recommended upgrade at all? To say it in another way, "Will my music source do justice to the Sierra family of speakers or will I be best served by sticking with the SE series that I have now?"

[Mag_Neato]

The only way to really answer that is to order a pair of Sierra-1's and do an in-home comparo. That will take the guesswork out of it.

[RPM]

Hi Sonicboom,

My setup is Hard drive based for 2 channel music, I use Audirvana which optimizes my
computer and iTunes for the best quality playback possible. The answer to your question depends
on the quality of the recordings and format you are using with iTunes. Are they 128kps? lossless? 24bit wave?
Itunes is a capable source for high quality recordings that you would def. benefit with having the
Seirra's.

[petmotel]

Thanks for the insightful replies, guys.

Let me just bring up the intended purpose of the set-up again: Majority of my music comes from iTunes. Add to the mix the occasional (maybe twice a month) movies via DVD/Blu-ray/Netflix.

Given the above purpose for the set-up, will anything called "Sierra" be a recommended upgrade at all? To say it in another way, "Will my music source do justice to the Sierra family of speakers or will I be best served by sticking with the SE series that I have now?"

If you are suggesting that the source material from iTunes is unworthy, I would suggest that that is not necessarily the case. I've read enough content at AVS forums that would insist that high bitrate MP3 sources are indistinguishable from CD quality. Although I cannot confirm, or deny the veracity of those claims (I myself have not done the required bias controlled testing) it would certainly point to the conclusion that much like CD quality, the most important aspect is the quality of the recording itself.

The sound quality of uncompressed lossless discrete sources on Blu-ray is as good as it gets.

Each step up the ladder of the Ascend product list produces real, tangible increases of sound quality, only you can decide how much this is worth to you. I would say that currently, with the release of the Sierra-2, that it is the sweet spot for price /performance ratio if you want to dwell at (or VERY near to) the top of the food chain.

Jay

[Asliang]

I don't think the Sierra-1 is being left out. The Sierra-1 and -2 are completely different products, I see the Sierra-1 being more inclined for home theater and Sierra-2 better for critical listening/nearfield.

I have experience with both the stock Sierra-1 and the Sierra-1 with the RAAL 70-20 tweeter, and the latter has a far smaller soundstage and more typical "ribbon dispersion" pattern compared to a dome. Far less uniform, room filling, and a much smaller sweet spot. It's great for nearfield but I would never suggest it for a large home theater with wide or multiple seating locations.

[petmotel]

I don't think the Sierra-1 is being left out. The Sierra-1 and -2 are completely different products, I see the Sierra-1 being more inclined for home theater and Sierra-2 better for critical listening/nearfield.

I have experience with both the stock Sierra-1 and the Sierra-1 with the RAAL 70-20 tweeter, and the latter has a far smaller soundstage and more typical "ribbon dispersion" pattern compared to a dome. Far less uniform, room filling, and a much smaller sweet spot. It's great for nearfield but I would never suggest it for a large home theater with wide or multiple seating locations.

The 70-20 XR RAAL ribbon does have a limited vertical dispersion pattern, but the horizontal dispersion of the ribbon is actually better than the dome NRT tweeter.

The limited vertical dispersion is actually desirable in a multi-channel environment. Take a look at the polar response plots for the ribbon compared to the dome, the 70-20 is absolutely spectacular on the horizontal plane, as is the new ribbon for the Sierra-2.

Controlled vertical dispersion is desirable in a theater application, typical compression driver transducers often used in theaters have long used waveguides for that very reason.

Your comment concerning use of ribbons for nearfield listening strongly contradicts both the design goals of these ribbon speakers, and my personal experience. I have a pair of Towers in a large shop (about 39 x 31 x 13 feet) and they fill the entire building with relatively balanced sound, and have an exceedingly large "sweet spot")

Jay

[curtis]

The Sierra-2's soundstage seems wider than the Sierra-1's horizontally. Vertically, I didn't notice any difference.

[Asliang]

The 70-20 XR RAAL ribbon does have a limited vertical dispersion pattern, but the horizontal dispersion of the ribbon is actually better than the dome NRT tweeter.

The limited vertical dispersion is actually desirable in a multi-channel environment. Take a look at the polar response plots for the ribbon compared to the dome, the 70-20 is absolutely spectacular on the horizontal plane, as is the new ribbon for the Sierra-2.

Controlled vertical dispersion is desirable in a theater application, typical compression driver transducers often used in theaters have long used waveguides for that very reason.

Your comment concerning use of ribbons for nearfield listening strongly contradicts both the design goals of these ribbon speakers, and my personal experience. I have a pair of Towers in a large shop (about 39 x 31 x 13 feet) and they fill the entire building with relatively balanced sound, and have an exceedingly large "sweet spot")

Jay

That's cool, let's go with that. The RAALs have a "large sweet spot". It's just traditional dome speakers can have a bigger one. I forgot you gotta be more PC when on a company forum.

[davef]

That's cool, let's go with that. The RAALs have a "large sweet spot". It's just traditional dome speakers can have a bigger one.

I thoroughly disagree with this statement... The RAAL tweeters we use in both the towers and new Sierra-2 offer a considerably larger soundstage compared to even 19mm domes (which have wider dispersion than a 26mm dome). We have yet to have a single customer (and we are talking hundreds of demos -- 4-today, just for example, one going on right now) who have compared dome vs. ribbon in the exact same environment comment that the domes offer a larger sweet spot. Not one... not ever...

From a purely technical standpoint, the RAAL ribbons have far superior horizontal off-axis response, it is not even a fair comparison...

[davef]

I don't think the Sierra-1 is being left out. The Sierra-1 and -2 are completely different products, I see the Sierra-1 being more inclined for home theater and Sierra-2 better for critical listening/nearfield.

I have experience with both the stock Sierra-1 and the Sierra-1 with the RAAL 70-20 tweeter, and the latter has a far smaller soundstage and more typical "ribbon dispersion" pattern compared to a dome. Far less uniform, room filling, and a much smaller sweet spot. It's great for nearfield but I would never suggest it for a large home theater with wide or multiple seating locations.

Sierra-1 are definitely not going anywhere, orders for them have not even slowed down since the release of the Sierra-2 -- there is a very significant difference in price.

That said, you can not compare the RAAL Sierra-1 with the Sierra-2. The Sierra-2 has different crossover slopes, which has a dramatic effect on dispersion. In addition, the 2 uses different components. Sierra-1 w/Raal is a bit more constrained with regard to dispersion due to the slope we needed to use to match the 70-20xr with the Sierra-1 woofer...