Sierra-2 or Towers w/ Raal. Totally confused and overwhelmed....

[Joechoes]

Ok, I was totally decided on saving up for the Towers and Horizon with Raal tweeters: and then I came across discussions that bookshelf speakers are better than towers minus the bass.

Now I am thinking, since I wholly intend to have a quality sub, that I may be better off with Sierra-2's.

I want the most realistic sound reproduction and the ability to play loud. I don't understand all the measurements and could not find what I wanted to read out of 120 some pages on the Sierra-2's.

So, some opinions: Which is better if you have a quality dedicated sub?
I intend them mostly for HT and gaming, but I want my music to sound phenomenal when I do listen to music.

[FirstReflect]

Hi, there!

Welcome to the forum :)

When I first saw your thread, I didn't read the headline carefully, and I thought you were going to ask about comparing the Sierra-2 to the standard Sierra Towers that use the NrT tweeter. That's been a hot topic of debate, as of late ;)

But, no, no - you're talking about the Sierra-2 vs. the flagship Sierra Towers RAAL! In this case, it is much easier to give an answer:

The Sierra Towers RAAL remain the superior speakers. They can play louder than the Sierra-2, and the dedicated mid-range driver is still technically superior to the Sierra-2's amazing new woofer.

HOWEVER, some folks want to consider the combination of the Sierra-2 along with one or a pair of great subwoofers vs. the Sierra Towers RAAL alone. That's another hot topic of debate.

But, once again, you've already said that you intend to use a high quality subwoofer either way, which is great! So, we're back to the easy answer, which is that the Sierra Towers RAAL remain the superior speakers :)

The Sierra-2 are like miniature Towers RAAL that don't play quite as loud, and don't play quite as low, and don't have the benefit of a dedicated mid-range driver.

When it comes to usage of subwoofers, I am of the strong opinion that you should always use a good pair of subwoofers if you can. If you only really care about one listening position, then a single subwoofer can be just as good.

Even if your speakers can play all the way down to below 20Hz (which hardly any can, but let's just consider this hypothetical example), what you actually end up hearing at your seat is NOT strictly what the speakers themselves are playing. Bass sound waves are very, very long. As a result, they bounce around your room a bunch of times before they ever actually reach your ears. When it comes to bass, what you end up hearing is not the direct sound. Instead, it is the sound that has bounced around your room first, and, as a result, there's all kinds of constructive and destructive wave interference that takes place before you ever actually hear the bass at your seat.

To give you a better real world example, I have 3 custom Sierra Horizon RAAL speakers in my system. All on their own, they play very accurately down to 40Hz, and then roll off fairly steeply below that point. Knowing that they play very accurately down to 40Hz, you might expect that to be the ideal frequency to choose as my crossover point to my pair of subwoofers.

But, that is not the case! With my Center speaker, for example, simply due to the dimensions of my room, where the speaker happens to be placed in my room, and where my seats are placed in my room, it turns out that right around 70Hz, there's a big old sound wave cancellation! When I'm sitting in my primary seat, if I just play a bass sweep through my Center speaker, there's literally silence at 70Hz. And there's a very obvious "valley" between 60Hz and 80Hz with 70Hz as the lowest point. If you were to look at a graph, you'd see a pretty flat line going along from 40Hz up to 60Hz, then a big valley-shaped dip from 60Hz to 80Hz, and then a nice flat line from 80Hz on up. That is NOT the speaker's fault. The speaker itself is staying flat and playing accurately all the way down to 40Hz. But, because the bass waves are bouncing around my room, and they happen to be cancelling themselves out between 60 and 80Hz, I have that big dip.

No amount of EQ can fix that dip, either. I could boost how loud the speaker is playing at those frequencies, but the sound waves would still end up just cancelling themselves out! It is a room acoustics issue, not a speaker issue.

The only solution would be to physically move either my seat or my Center speaker. But, I cannot move my Center speaker - it needs to remain directly below my television. And I cannot really move my seat - it's exactly where I want it so that it's the perfect distance from my TV!

So, instead, the only solution is to hand over the bass duties to my pair of subwoofers ABOVE 80Hz. I can move my subwoofers. They do not need to be placed in the ideal spots for good imaging. Your speakers, they have to go where it makes sense in terms of giving you good imaging, and the correct placement of higher frequency sounds. But, that means you're at the mercy of your room's acoustics when it comes to any deep bass that is being played by the speakers themselves. The solution is to always use a pair of subwoofers. Two subwoofers - placed at the mid-point of each side wall, or the mid-point of the front and back wall, or in diagonally opposite corners - they will work together, along with all the bass sound waves bouncing around your room, to give you very even and uniform bass throughout your entire room. The waves are all still bouncing around and interfering with each other. But, with two subwoofers and careful placement, you can use all of that bouncing and interference to your advantage, rather than your disadvantage.

When you use only one subwoofer, you will still end up with some unwanted interference in the bass sound waves that leads to some big peaks and dips. But, those big peaks and dips will only exist in certain specific spots in your room. So, what you can do with a single subwoofer is experiment with where it is placed so that your primary seat does not fall in the path of any of those big peaks or dips. Normally, in a real room, we only have a certain number of places where we can realistically position the subwoofer. And, it might turn out that none of the available spots result in no peaks or dips at all at your primary seat. If you run into a situation like that, try to find a location for your subwoofer that only results in peaks. You can always "tame" a peak using EQ. It's fine to lower the volume of that specific frequency in order to bring it back in line at your primary seat. But, you cannot "boost" dips. Like I mentioned, dips happen because the bass sound waves are cancelling themselves out. No matter how much you increase their loudness, they'll still just cancel! So, you can reduce peaks with EQ, but you cannot "fill in" dips.

Anyways, you say you want to play loud. The Sierra Towers RAAL should be your top choice, in that case. It gets more complicated when you're considering, say, the Sierra-2 combined with a pair of subwoofers that cost $600 each vs. just the Sierra Towers RAAL all on their own. In that situation, the Towers RAAL will still play louder in the mid-range and treble, but you'd have so much advantage in the bass with the dual subwoofers - both in terms of extension down to below 20Hz, as well as in how uniform the bass would be throughout your room - that, personally, I would have to lean towards the Sierra-2 + dual subwoofers combo. If you could live with the slightly reduced loudness in the mid-range and treble, it's honestly the better overall setup.

But, happily, you don't have to worry about that! It will cost more, but the Towers RAAL PLUS one or two great subwoofers is still the ultimate. There's no way the Sierra-2 plus the same one or two subwoofers would be superior.

Hope that's of some help!

- Rob H.

[Blutarsky]

Nice post!
B.

[Joechoes]

Wow, that was a lot of information!!
Totally answered my question and then some thanks.
I have a dip in my room around 50-60hz where it goes completely silent so I am happy to know how to fix that as well. (although it will take me forever to save up for two Rythmik's :D)

Thanks!

[Styphin]

Thanks for this post! I had the same concerns as the OP and this affirmed my decision to get the towers with RAAL for my HT, coupled with some subwoofers to boot!

[bkdc]

Volume shouldn't be an issue unless you are already pushing a pair of underpowered amplifiers. The 3dB in decreased sensitivity can easily be overcome by turning up the volume. The Sierra-2's can easily fill a big room, and they can definitely handle extra power. I'm driving them with 600W at 8-ohm (1000W at 4ohm) monoblocks and I've cranked them up to temporarily ear-busting levels.

Now if you make a habit of driving your Sierra-2 speakers at 100 watts and you'd rather save a few bucks off your electric bill by driving your Sierra Towers at 50 instead at higher sensitivity, then I can't argue there. If you blast them at 200W, then I guess the cost savings in electricity is greater with Sierra towers at 100W. But really.. who thinks about electricity costs with these things? If you listen you your speakers that loudly, you'll probably be deaf in a few months.

But there are other benefits to the Sierra Towers which have nothing to do with volume. The Sierra-2's can play plenty loud and can handle plenty of juice from amplifiers. Turn in up. Your speakers can handle it.

[natetg57]

(although it will take me forever to save up for two Rythmik's :D)

Thanks!

I would suggest checking out the Rythmik diy kits and cabinets from Parts Express.

[Joechoes]

I would suggest checking out the Rythmik diy kits and cabinets from Parts Express.

I have a friend who wants to build me one. He knows what he is doing and had built more than a few and has nice expensive equipment, I just find it difficult to believe he could build one that works as well as the Rythmik subs. (just based on what I have read about them- I have never heard one)

[UNCMT9]

I've been on the fence with this topic for a while now. I just can't swing the budget for the RAAL towers. I'm thinking about the Sierra 2 LCR setup. Everything I heard said it's pretty much a moot point if you have quality subs, which is the case with you (and hopefully me). :cool:

[GirgleMirt]

I have a friend who wants to build me one. He knows what he is doing and had built more than a few and has nice expensive equipment, I just find it difficult to believe he could build one that works as well as the Rythmik subs. (just based on what I have read about them- I have never heard one)
Why?! It's a box with a driver and possibly an amp. :D The driver is from Rythmik and will be the same, the amp too if you're going for servo (from rythmik), the enclosure is likely made from MDF (3/4 inch or 1 inch), glue is glue, so for materials, easily can nearly identical. The important thing is to get the parameters correctly; the internal volume of the sub, the dimensions, the bracing, amount of filling if any, etc. Bracing doesn't have to be identical, but has to be adequate. And actually, Rythmik might be willing to provide that info. (cabinet plans)

Hell, going DIY, you could even ask him to use bamboo (https://www.google.ca/search?num=100&q=buy+laminated+bamboo+sheets&oq=buy+laminated+bamboo+sheets&gs_l=serp.3...4088.4673.0.4911.7.6.0.0.0.0.152.551 .2j3.5.0.ckpsr1000...0...1.1.60.serp..4.3.341.IdGB 3IIHzuA) so it matches the Sierras; the bamboo properties will also be desirable for a sub. The finish might be an issue, but you could probably google info on how to 'match' say natural sierra finish. But yeah, getting an exact match to Sierra finish might not be so easy, and bamboo is more expensive than MDF. Or, you can simply finish the sub using paint or laminate also like you would MDF.

Anyhow, if your friend is really handy with his hands and tools, DIY shouldn't be worse than a 'real' sub. I've built a Rythmik sub, Rythmik is definitely worth supporting! And DIY usually beats the crap out of Brick and Mortar stuff! For Rythmik sub, I've not done the math, but you could probably save a few bucks, or get as mentioned a custom hand made sub! :D

[Chipless]

I realize that this thread was started a year ago, but I wanted to provide a quick opinion since I have owned and listened to both the Sierra 2s and Sierra RAAL Towers in the exact same room with the same gear connected to both of them. I only have about 25 hours of time with the Towers thus far, so I wouldn't consider break-in complete since Dave has indicated things are settled after about 50 hours. However, I can't imagine them sounding much different than they do now, but only time will tell.

Anyway, the Sierra 2s are EXCELLENT speakers. I was truly blown away by them. I was so impressed by them that I decided to upgrade to the RAAL Towers figuring that if Dave can make a bookshelf sound that good, then his towers ought to be the end-all of speakers. So, are the Towers "better" than the Sierra 2s? Yes. They definitely are. The sound is even more natural than that of Sierra 2s (the Towers "disappear" more often during listening sessions than the Sierra 2s did). Additionally, the whole soundstage is larger/wider with the Towers. I have dual Rythmik FV15HPs, so the difference in bass extension/output between the two is negligible. Now for the important question: Are the Towers worth the difference in price? Well, that obviously depends on how much disposable income you have, but I would say that for the average middle class person, yes, the price difference is worth it, but just barely so. Now, if you can't have a sub for whatever reason, then the towers are definitely worth the extra cost. Honestly, I might have considered going back to the Sierra 2s to reinvest the price difference in acoustic treatments/vacations/beer/etc, but since I have the Horizon RAAL for a center, the thought didn't even cross my mind. The front soundstage is SEAMLESS with movies. Could you get away with Sierra 2s all across the front? Absolutely. However, the Horizon RAAL is much better as a center channel, which is the most crucial speaker for HT. So, in my opinion, if you are going the combined HT and 2-channel stereo route, the Towers are definitely worth the increased cost. If you can't have a sub for whatever reason, and are going with a pure stereo setup, the Towers are once again definitely worth the extra cost. With a pure stereo setup, and a subwoofer, the Towers are just barely worth the extra cost (assuming "middle class" income). In summary, the Towers are worth it in every situation! However, in the last situation, I wouldn't hesitant to purchase the Sierra 2s. In fact, that's the route I would take.

This goes without saying, but everything above is just one average man's opinion. Additionally, the lack of specific listening comments regarding the two was intentional. I have not spent enough time with either to give a proper breakdown by each attribute. However, I feel confident providing the general conclusion listed above. I hope this helps those on the fence!

[davef]

I realize that this thread was started a year ago, but I wanted to provide a quick opinion since I have owned and listened to both the Sierra 2s and Sierra RAAL Towers in the exact same room with the same gear connected to both of them. I only have about 25 hours of time with the Towers thus far, so I wouldn't consider break-in complete since Dave has indicated things are settled after about 50 hours. However, I can't imagine them sounding much different than they do now, but only time will tell.

Anyway, the Sierra 2s are EXCELLENT speakers. I was truly blown away by them. I was so impressed by them that I decided to upgrade to the RAAL Towers figuring that if Dave can make a bookshelf sound that good, then his towers ought to be the end-all of speakers. So, are the Towers "better" than the Sierra 2s? Yes. They definitely are. The sound is even more natural than that of Sierra 2s (the Towers "disappear" more often during listening sessions than the Sierra 2s did). Additionally, the whole soundstage is larger/wider with the Towers. I have dual Rythmik FV15HPs, so the difference in bass extension/output between the two is negligible. Now for the important question: Are the Towers worth the difference in price? Well, that obviously depends on how much disposable income you have, but I would say that for the average middle class person, yes, the price difference is worth it, but just barely so. Now, if you can't have a sub for whatever reason, then the towers are definitely worth the extra cost. Honestly, I might have considered going back to the Sierra 2s to reinvest the price difference in acoustic treatments/vacations/beer/etc, but since I have the Horizon RAAL for a center, the thought didn't even cross my mind. The front soundstage is SEAMLESS with movies. Could you get away with Sierra 2s all across the front? Absolutely. However, the Horizon RAAL is much better as a center channel, which is the most crucial speaker for HT. So, in my opinion, if you are going the combined HT and 2-channel stereo route, the Towers are definitely worth the increased cost. If you can't have a sub for whatever reason, and are going with a pure stereo setup, the Towers are once again definitely worth the extra cost. With a pure stereo setup, and a subwoofer, the Towers are just barely worth the extra cost (assuming "middle class" income). In summary, the Towers are worth it in every situation! However, in the last situation, I wouldn't hesitant to purchase the Sierra 2s. In fact, that's the route I would take.

This goes without saying, but everything above is just one average man's opinion. Additionally, the lack of specific listening comments regarding the two was intentional. I have not spent enough time with either to give a proper breakdown by each attribute. However, I feel confident providing the general conclusion listed above. I hope this helps those on the fence!

Excellent post! This will definitely help customers decide.

Thanks!

[Veda]

Dave, I'd like to get the Sierra 2. Have emailed Dina twice with no reply yet. Can you please check? Thanks.

[curtis]

Dave, I'd like to get the Sierra 2. Have emailed Dina twice with no reply yet. Can you please check? Thanks.
Hey Veda...Ascend has been doing year end inventory, so they are backed up on email.

[Veda]

Hey Veda...Ascend has been doing year end inventory, so they are backed up on email.

Noted. Actually as time goes by I may just get another RAAL Towers in addition to the Sierra 2. Will see the audition against a Veracity ST this weekend.

[Joechoes]

I figured I would give an update.

I bought the RAAL towers and RAAL Horizon center for my front soundstage. So far I have also bought a pair of CBM 170-SE's for side surrounds as well. All of the speakers sound great. If I had the space and cash I would have towers all the way around, but I am happy with the CBM's.

I am hoping my wife buys me another pair of CBM's for my birthday to finish out my system, but that is doubtful; especially since the sale price is over.

The CBM's have had me thinking somebody was in the room with me when I heard voices on them in my video games; they really are that natural. I have no experience with the Sierras or CMT's though to compare.

I went to a movie tonight at a really nice theater and I am certain my speakers sound way better. No more movies at the theater for me. I will wait for movies to come out on blu-ray so they can sound every bit as good as they are supposed to.

I am super anxious for my last two speakers to finish my system and have tried to find used ones so I don't have to wait as long saving up money, but nobody seems to want to part with their Ascend Acoustics speakers.