Ascend Lineup Comparisons for a newbie

[greyatlien]

Hey folks, new to the forum and as well as Audiophelia(you know you like that made up word).

I was referred to Ascend Acoustics by ImCloud from Audioholics and have grown very intrigued by Ascends offerings based on the price point and the tons of glowing reviews as well as how involved Ascend is with the different discussions.

My question might be an odd one and is pretty subjective as well. However I wanted to ask which larger manufacturer lineups do Ascend's lineups compare to?

Sierra lineup is comparable to ?
HTM compares to ?
CBM/CMT lineup is comparable to ?

This will give me a pretty good point of reference as I save money for my new speakers.

Thank you in advance,
Grey

[FirstReflect]

Hi there! Welcome to the forum. I'm happy to read that ImCloud is still holding down the fort over on the Audioholics forums :) I had a pretty big hand, if I do say so myself, in his speaker and subwoofer purchase a couple of years ago, so it's nice to see him still "paying it forward", as it were ;)

You're right that comparisons such as this are highly subjective. It can also become very contentious, and for that reason, I know a lot of folks prefer to just avoid making statements about their opinions, because it so often leads to arguments and unpleasantness. But, I'm willing to take a stab at it :D

I'll still give the disclaimer, though: this is purely my opinion, and based purely on my own listening experiences. I'm committing the cardinal sin of offering up subjective impressions that I've made in different locations. I've never had all of these speakers in the same room, or with blind A-B comparisons. This is in no way a scientific finding, or something that you should take as anything other than one man's opinion!

Is that enough to protect me? haha. Likely not. But, I've allowed myself to feel more confident about my perceptions and listening practices. A lot of that is thanks to DaveF here at Ascend. When my subjective observations line up really well with Ascend's measurements, and Dave's own claims and observations, I'm a little less worried now than I used to be about offering my opinions on sound. At the very least, I don't think I'm way out to lunch ;)

So, with all of that out of the way…

I think the "big name" brand and models that are closest to the Ascend SE Series (including the HTM-200SE, CBM-170SE & CMT-340SE) would be the MK Sound THX Ultra speakers. Yes, the venerated S150 reference monitors that are used at places like Skywalker Sound are, in my opinion, probably the closest sonic match to Ascends least expensive speakers. This is one of the reasons why Ascend garners so much praise! If you want studio-accurate sound, you can get it from Ascend's SE series speakers at prices that are thousands of dollars less than the industry stalwarts.

Naturally, there are still differences - particularly in the off-axis dispersion. Ascend's SE series speakers offer very wide and even off-axis response, while the MK Sound S150 have far more wave interference due to the triple tweeters and dual, side aligned woofers. As such, the Ascend speakers are actually better suited for a home environment. Off-axis response is a lot less critical in a production studio where only a single listening position matters, and the room is typically highly damped and deadened with absorptive wall treatments. In a typical home, you'll have a wider seating area, and a far more reflective room, so it's very important that the off-axis dispersion be very even and wide so that the sound does not change in timbre as you move to different locations within the room. Think single sweet spot vs. wide sweet spot ;) But, on-axis, the overall frequency response and sound quality of the MK Sound THX Ultra speakers and Ascend's SE series speakers are quite similar, IMO. DaveF used to work at M&K, so, perhaps this is not so surprising :)

The standard Sierra series speakers (the Sierra-1, Sierra-1 NrT, standard Sierra Tower & standard Sierra Horizon), I would probably compare them most closely with Revel's Performa3 when it comes to the bookshelf models, and the Revel Ultima series when it comes to the Towers and Horizon. There's a lot that I like about Revel's design philosophy. Flat on-axis response, very even and controlled off-axis response, high order crossovers to prevent sound wave interference between drivers. These are all traits shared by Ascend's Sierra series speakers, as well. Again, though, Ascend offers this sort of sound quality at prices far lower than these Revel series. And that is, yet again, why Ascend garners so much praise.

As for Ascend's flagship speakers (Sierra Towers RAAL, Sierra Horizon RAAL & Sierra-2 bookshelf), I honestly don't know if I would say there's a "big name" retail brand that can compare. Some folks will likely mention some other internet direct brands. But, in terms of something you will be able to hear at a store, the only speakers I might suggest would be the Focal Electra 1000 Be 2 Series speakers. I very nearly bought a Focal Electra Be speaker setup myself. It would have been WAY more expensive.

So, there ya have it! I don't know how much flack I'll get for offering these opinions, or how much disagreement there will be. But, if you can check out the MK Sound THX Ultra speakers, the Revel Performa3 speakers, the Revel Ultima speakers, and the Focal Electra 1000 Be 2 speakers, I think you will have a reasonable idea of the sort of sound quality that Ascend is offering. And once you see the price tags, I think you'll quickly realize why Ascend customers are so happy and enthusiastic!

I hope that's of some help :)

- Rob H.

[greyatlien]

Rob,

Thank you very much for your response, it provided the insight and direction that I was looking for. I have a Revel and Focal dealer within an hour of me so I can plan a visit to listen to get an idea of what is to come. I can feel myself becoming one of Ascends newest Cheerleaders due to the value and the quality that keeps being emphasized by all of the forum members.

[FirstReflect]

Excellent! I'm happy that you found my reply helpful :)

Just so you know how it is that Ascend is undercutting these well-established brands in terms of prices:

David Fabrikant has basically priced all of the upgraded components, such as the RAAL ribbon tweeters, at cost. No extra profit is being made when you opt for one of the upgrades that Ascend offers. Same goes for the upgraded finish options. Ascend isn't making any extra profit. So, that is highly unusual. It's more work, but no extra profit. Ascend's margins go down every time an upgrade is sold! That's kind of a crazy way to do business, to be honest.

For mass market speakers, what you'll generally have at the store is a sticker price that is about 4x what it cost to make the speaker. The manufacturer will sell the speakers wholesale for double what it cost them to make it (parts & labour), and then the retailer will double that wholesale price to get to the retail price that you'd pay at a store.

But, those margins of 100% and another 100% above that only work for mass market products that sell in high volumes. For higher end speakers that sell in far lower volumes, the prices have to be marked up a lot more than 4x over cost to make it "worth while" to the retailers and manufacturers.

If you buy Ascend's flagship Sierra Tower RAAL speakers, Ascend is only making around a 50% margin, if that. It might actually be closer to 40%. In other words, out of the $2700-ish per pair price, only something in the range of $750-$900 is actually profit. And that's only accounting for parts costs and the necessary labour to assemble them. That does not account for things like how much it costs to lease or own Ascend's warehouse space, all the internal shipping costs to bring in the parts, and all of the many overhead costs -- things like insurance, and, oh yeah, taxes! So, that is WAY below industry standards. Even if Ascend were selling directly to customers at mass market wholesale prices, the Sierra Towers RAAL ought to be priced at around $4000/pair, and $3600/pair at a bare minimum. At a store, if they were mass market and selling in large volumes, $8000/pair would be totally reasonable and expected.

But, the Sierra Towers RAAL are not mass market speakers. Your average Joe is not looking to spend close to $3000 on one pair of speakers, let alone $8000! As a result, higher margins would be typical if they were being sold in stores. $15,000/pair wouldn't be out of line at all.

So, when you see the Focal Electra 1028 Be speakers, and they have an MSRP of $9000/pair, you actually come to realize that they most likely cost LESS to actually manufacture -- just in terms of the price of parts and labour -- than the Sierra Towers RAAL! There's around an honest to goodness cost of about $1800/pair in parts and labour for the Sierra Towers RAAL -- quite possibly more. The Focal Electra 1028 Be likely have an actual cost (parts & labour) around half of that; maybe in the $900-$1000 range. Otherwise, the margins at $9000/pair retail just wouldn't be high enough.

The biggest "problem" for Ascend is that people see the Sierra Towers RAAL priced at $2700/pair, and then they see the Focal Electra 1028 Be priced at $9000/pair, and they automatically assume that the Focal 1028 Be MUST be better. It's, like, "look at the price difference! How could speakers that are $9000 not be better than speakers that are $2700?!"

Well, if we flipped that on its head, and you were told that one pair costs $900 to manufacture, and the other pair costs $1800 to manufacture, THEN which ones would you assume are better?

;)

Obviously, Ascend is not the only speaker company using internet direct sales to undercut the store brands on prices. But, even amongst internet-direct brands, Ascend's margins are shockingly low. Particularly when it comes to upgrades. Other ID brands will typically take at least a little bit of profit if you upgrade certain drivers, or you upgrade the cabinet material or the finish. And I think that's totally reasonable! I don't have any problem with a company maintaining a given profit margin. That's expected! But, in speaking with Dave, he genuinely just cares more about giving everyone the chance to hear the very best components available. He has to recoup his cost. But, that's all he does. No extra profit. And his margins shrink. That's an insane deal. :)

[eliwankenobi]

Hello,

I'll take a stab as well! Hope I wont get burned!

I have also heard the Revel Performa 3 several times at my local dealer. I was very close to buy a pair of M105 ($1500) and the center ($1000). Then I got a chance to hear the Ascends Sierra Towers RAAL at a fellow member's house (merrymaid520) who was kind enough allow me to demo them at his house. I liked what I heard very much.
I now have a pair of Sierra-1 NrT and can tell you that they both go head to head. I'm talking about the M106 here which has a 6.5" woofer (and goes for $2000) vs the 5.25" woofer in the Sierra. And the Sierra has an edge in bass output as well!! (Although this is listening to the Sierras in my room and by remembering the Revels at the dealer's room, but if going by their specs, you'll see the Ascends have lower frecuency reach than Revels)

I'll say this too..the performa3 line looks beautiful! Especially the walnut finish but that's besides the point. My Sierras look amazing as well ;)

So if and when you go to demo the Performa3 speakers, ask to demo m106 and you will have a pretty good idea about how the ascends will sound. This is, if you are considering the bookshelf Sierras.

I have not heard the other models other than the Sierra line, but going from my experience listening to my Sierra-1 NrTs and the RAAL towers, the models in their lower end lines should be as much a high value as the Sierras are.

[davef]

Excellent! I'm happy that you found my reply helpful :)

Just so you know how it is that Ascend is undercutting these well-established brands in terms of prices:

David Fabrikant has basically priced all of the upgraded components, such as the RAAL ribbon tweeters, at cost. No extra profit is being made when you opt for one of the upgrades that Ascend offers. Same goes for the upgraded finish options. Ascend isn't making any extra profit. So, that is highly unusual. It's more work, but no extra profit. Ascend's margins go down every time an upgrade is sold! That's kind of a crazy way to do business, to be honest.

For mass market speakers, what you'll generally have at the store is a sticker price that is about 4x what it cost to make the speaker. The manufacturer will sell the speakers wholesale for double what it cost them to make it (parts & labour), and then the retailer will double that wholesale price to get to the retail price that you'd pay at a store.

But, those margins of 100% and another 100% above that only work for mass market products that sell in high volumes. For higher end speakers that sell in far lower volumes, the prices have to be marked up a lot more than 4x over cost to make it "worth while" to the retailers and manufacturers.

If you buy Ascend's flagship Sierra Tower RAAL speakers, Ascend is only making around a 50% margin, if that. It might actually be closer to 40%. In other words, out of the $2700-ish per pair price, only something in the range of $750-$900 is actually profit. And that's only accounting for parts costs and the necessary labour to assemble them. That does not account for things like how much it costs to lease or own Ascend's warehouse space, all the internal shipping costs to bring in the parts, and all of the many overhead costs -- things like insurance, and, oh yeah, taxes! So, that is WAY below industry standards. Even if Ascend were selling directly to customers at mass market wholesale prices, the Sierra Towers RAAL ought to be priced at around $4000/pair, and $3600/pair at a bare minimum. At a store, if they were mass market and selling in large volumes, $8000/pair would be totally reasonable and expected.

But, the Sierra Towers RAAL are not mass market speakers. Your average Joe is not looking to spend close to $3000 on one pair of speakers, let alone $8000! As a result, higher margins would be typical if they were being sold in stores. $15,000/pair wouldn't be out of line at all.

So, when you see the Focal Electra 1028 Be speakers, and they have an MSRP of $9000/pair, you actually come to realize that they most likely cost LESS to actually manufacture -- just in terms of the price of parts and labour -- than the Sierra Towers RAAL! There's around an honest to goodness cost of about $1800/pair in parts and labour for the Sierra Towers RAAL -- quite possibly more. The Focal Electra 1028 Be likely have an actual cost (parts & labour) around half of that; maybe in the $900-$1000 range. Otherwise, the margins at $9000/pair retail just wouldn't be high enough.

The biggest "problem" for Ascend is that people see the Sierra Towers RAAL priced at $2700/pair, and then they see the Focal Electra 1028 Be priced at $9000/pair, and they automatically assume that the Focal 1028 Be MUST be better. It's, like, "look at the price difference! How could speakers that are $9000 not be better than speakers that are $2700?!"

Well, if we flipped that on its head, and you were told that one pair costs $900 to manufacture, and the other pair costs $1800 to manufacture, THEN which ones would you assume are better?

;)

Obviously, Ascend is not the only speaker company using internet direct sales to undercut the store brands on prices. But, even amongst internet-direct brands, Ascend's margins are shockingly low. Particularly when it comes to upgrades. Other ID brands will typically take at least a little bit of profit if you upgrade certain drivers, or you upgrade the cabinet material or the finish. And I think that's totally reasonable! I don't have any problem with a company maintaining a given profit margin. That's expected! But, in speaking with Dave, he genuinely just cares more about giving everyone the chance to hear the very best components available. He has to recoup his cost. But, that's all he does. No extra profit. And his margins shrink. That's an insane deal. :)

Oh my, your estimates on our actual costs and profit margins are sometimes too close for comfort. I have often explained the same thing to inquiring consumers -- that our products cost quite a bit more to manufacture yet sell for significantly less than B&M brands (and many ID brands). Of course, we also don't have the overhead of the larger B&M brands and we are able to remain somewhat profitable because, typically, the # 1 expense of CE companies is marketing -- and our marketing expense is basically zero (aside from our website). Not even simple banner ads... We are 100% word of mouth. Unfortunately, however, if we were forced to start marketing we would probably have to do things a bit differently here to support the added expense.

[FirstReflect]

Oh my, your estimates on our actual costs and profit margins are sometimes too close for comfort. I have often explained the same thing to inquiring consumers -- that our products cost quite a bit more to manufacture yet sell for significantly less than B&M brands (and many ID brands). Of course, we also don't have the overhead of the larger B&M brands and we are able to remain somewhat profitable because, typically, the # 1 expense of CE companies is marketing -- and our marketing expense is basically zero (aside from our website). Not even simple banner ads... We are 100% word of mouth. Unfortunately, however, if we were forced to start marketing we would probably have to do things a bit differently here to support the added expense.

Oooops! Sorry, Dave! I certainly didn't intend to cause discomfort!

To be very clear, I do not know the actual numbers! I am making educated guesses based upon what I know certain components to cost, and extrapolating based on more common pricing practices. I'm not "outing" Ascend's prices in any way, because I don't actually know the numbers for sure!

But...yeah...there's Dave's own words right there in the above post! haha. So, I'm not way out of the ballpark or anything, it seems ;)

I do apologize if talking about pricing and profit makes anyone uneasy, though. It's very unusual for people to be forthright about actual costs, and actual profit margins. But, I'm of the strong opinion that people actually spend more money more willingly when they're aware of where their hard-earned dollars are actually going!

Sometimes, people balk at the realization that things cost at least 4x as much as they cost to manufacture, and very often, more like 10x. But, this is why I love shows like Shark Tank and Dragon's Den where they actually state things outright - how much it costs to manufacture, what it sells for wholesale, what the retail price is, and what the margins are as a result. Most companies - you simply cannot survive on 50% margins! Charging retailers a wholesale price that is twice as much as what it cost you to make the products is, like, the absolute bare minimum! You see it on those shows I just mentioned: they'd toss Dave out in a heartbeat if he ever went to them looking for an investment - not nearly enough margin! haha

It's tough: people are so used to only looking at the final price tag. That's natural: that's how much money is going to be coming out of their bank account! But, that is really not the story of where your money is actually going.

This is why things like jewelry and perfume are so insane. Perfume - it's 99.99% water! It costs fractions of a cent. Include the bottle and it's maybe a couple of cents per unit in actual cost - labour included, since it's all automated and all perfumes in the world are churned out by just a handful of factories that have LONG since recouped their costs for the equipment. And yet, it sells for tens or even hundreds of dollars per bottle! And people still assume, "the more expensive, the better it must be". Nope - it's all just water and some combination of a mere 10 scents that humans can actually detect. It's quite possibly the ultimate rip-off. Great margins, though. haha

[greyatlien]

I have been reading pages upon pages of information from this forum and it makes me extremely comfortable with everything I have read. To the point that I have made my dream decisions in terms of 2 Channel as well as surround sound. I really like the customization of adding the RAAL tweeter and/or custom finishes, it really takes it home for me. Value is huge for me, being that I live in an area where my above average income is dwarfed by the enormous cost of living. I really appreciate the niche that Ascend has created. I am saving my money and ensuring that I have the Wifey "OK" to ensure that I am only hearing the speakers, not the nagging. :-)