Matching timbre of the Sierra Horizons with in wall/inceiling surrounds and backs

[cogipro]

Very soon I will receive my 3 Sierra Horizons, each with RAAL tweeters, which will serve as my L/C/R fronts in a large room (7000 cubic ft. including kitchen in the back) 7.1 system driven by a **** 8500N power match amp at 500 watts at 4 ohm (Horizons are 4 ohm). Preamp not yet selected. The question is, what inceiling or inwall speakers to install to more closely match the timbre and tonality of the Horizons? In room speakers in the rears/surrounds are not an option (WAF). Sub will be my old Mackie HRS 150. Of course, I would love to find a set of backs and surrounds with ribbon tweeters, sealed, and able to handle the power, but these are likely a rare or very expensive beast(s). The amp is rated at 300 watts per channel at 8 ohm and probably around 400 watts at 6 ohm. The ceiling is a cropped vaulted one which looks like the bottom half of a capital 'A'. Side walls are not an option, so the 'slanted ceiling' will be the install site of the 4 speakers. The viewing distance is 17 feet in this 21' x 36' x 10'? room. The room will be acoustically pretty active with only an area rug and chairs/sofa from 18 feet and in towards the front. Maximum (total) to spend on these 4 would be around 5K (stretchable depending on the find). Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Curt

[FirstReflect]

Hi, Curt.

Congrats on your Sierra Horizon RAAL purchases! You are going to LOVE those speakers as your Front Mains and Centre :D

It's a shame you cannot make use of the new Sierra-2 as your Surround and Surround Back speakers. Obviously, they will offer the closest timbral and overall sound quality match to the Horizon RAAL Front speakers.

Before I make a couple of recommendations, my absolute first recommendation to you would be to contact David Fabrikant right here at Ascend!

Ascend does not outwardly present itself as a custom speaker manufacturer. But, I can tell you from first hand experience, Dave is willing and (very) able to design and manufacture custom one-off speakers! For example, for my future "master plan", I required a Center speaker with a minimal depth from front to back. I also wanted Front Main speakers that would perform equally to the Sierra Towers RAAL, but that could be stand mounted. Dave took on these projects for me, and created a "Skinny" Sierra Horizon RAAL Center with dimensions of 11" tall x 40" wide x 7.5" deep, and front ported. As far as I know, no one else has ordered that same "Skinny" design yet. So, it was truly a one-off! And if someone else has ordered one since mine, I definitely know that mine was the first ;) Dave put in a tremendous amount of design work, and did so before I had even committed to placing my full order!

My Front Main speakers wound up being "Low-Profile" Sierra Horizon RAAL speakers. Dave had already designed this enclosure for people who wanted the Horizon, but needed it to be shorter from top to bottom (11" is quite tall for a Center!). But, I had my "Low-Profile" versions oriented vertically, giving them dimensions of 32.5" tall x 8.5" wide x 11.75" deep, and front ported. My Front Mains are not unique. I know a few other people who also have this "Low-Profile" design. But, it is still a completely custom build.

So, my point is that Ascend might very well be capable of meeting your needs. You could use the Sierra-2 drivers, which include the new 10mm wide RAAL ribbon tweeter and the new SEAS woven polypropylene mid-woofer with the cast magnesium basket! Ascend is the only company with these specific drivers, and by all the measurements available, they are out of this world!

Thus, the very first thing you should do is to contact Mr. Fabrikant and discuss your needs. He might be able to design a fully enclosed speaker using the Sierra-2 drivers that could be mounted within a wall/ceiling. Or, he might be able to create a sealed or front ported speaker that could be mounted flush on the wall.

On a selfish note, I'm kind of hoping you might be willing to go for an on-wall design! One of the things I will be looking to purchase at some point in the future is an on-wall Sierra-2! I am hoping that Dave's next big project might be some on-wall Sierra Series speakers. We have had a small amount of chatter about on-wall Sierra Series speakers, and Dave seems open to the idea, having already considered a "Sierra-0.5", but being forced to reject those initial plans due to cost considerations. But, an on-wall Sierra-1/-1 NrT/-2 seems like a possibility. I have envisioned an enclosure that is about 6 or 6.5 inches deep from front to back, with either a front, or a top/bottom port placement, as well as binding post positions that would allow the speaker to be mounted flush on the wall.

So, if you are willing to be our "guinea pig", you might actually have the honour of kick starting this on-wall project!

I'm not sure about in-wall/in-ceiling. On-wall seems like it would be the more practical solution, as the laminated bamboo material could still be used for the cabinets, the same drivers could be used, and the same internal air volume within the cabinets could be maintained by simply making the cabinets taller, and perhaps a tiny bit wider in order to compensate for the thinner depth from front to back. In-walls would be a truly divergent design, though. A completely different beast. But, if anyone is up to the task of designing either form factor, it's Dave!

Alrighty, so, if it turns out that Dave cannot meet your needs, or it's simply a matter of time table, and you're not able to wait for the design and manufacturing lead times, here are a couple of other suggestions that I have for you :)

1) Try getting in touch with Salk Sound: http://www.salksound.com/ . Salk does custom speaker design and manufacturing, and they have access to RAAL ribbon tweeters. To be clear, these are not the exact same parts that Ascend uses. Ascend has a very close relationship with their parts manufacturers, and the parts used at Ascend a custom made ONLY for Ascend, with particular design choices and alterations to make sure that all of the parts work together as symbiotically as possible. It's a "more than just the sum of the parts" type of situation. Salk will be using "off the shelf" parts. But, that said, RAALs tweeters are excellent, regardless. So, if it turns out, for whatever reason, that Ascend cannot do the custom speaker design and manufacturing for you, perhaps Salk can. And you should at least be able to get reasonably close in terms of the parts used. There will still be a lead time for design and manufacturing, though. So, if you have to have your Surround speakers right away...

2) Focal Electra IW 1002 Be: http://www.focal.com/en/electra-1000-be-2/217-electra-iw-1002-be-3544053695075.html

It's not a ribbon tweeter, and it's a completely different woofer, using a glass and foam composite instead of woven or mineral-filled polypropylene. But, IMO, these are probably the next best thing as far as readily available, dedicated in-wall/on-wall speakers go!

Focal makes all of their own drivers. The glass and foam woofers offer very good self-damping, which is a feature that is also key to the excellent sound quality of Ascend's woofers. Focal is using Beryllium dome tweeters. Nothing can equal the transient response and impulse decay times of RAAL's ribbon tweeters. But, if you're going to use a metal dome, Focal's Beryllium tweeters come about as close as you can reasonably hope for.

When it comes to matching the timbre of the sound, that is all about having the very same on and off axis frequency response. The Focal IW 1002 Be and the Ascend Sierra Horizon RAAL will not be a perfect timbre match, but both speakers exhibit flat, accurate on-axis frequency response, and wide off-axis response.

To put it another way, prior to my Ascend purchase, the Focal on-wall speakers were my next highest choice. The Ascends are easily a better value, and less expensive while giving up nothing in the way of performance. But, the Focal Electra Be series speakers sound very, very good. And I was this close to purchasing them. So, for what it's worth, I prefer a very neutral and accurate sound, with extremely linear on-axis response, wide off-axis response, and super fast transient response. I would say that the Focal Electra Be and Ascend Sierra RAAL speakers are more similar than they are different in all of these metrics. So, while the sound quality won't be identical, I would contend that you'll hopefully find them to be a closer sonic match than you might expect just looking at the completely different materials of the drivers. When the goal is accurate sound with very low distortion and very fast transient response, the ultimate sonic results begin to merge, regardless of what materials are being used. So, I'd say to you that the Focal Electra Be in-wall/on-wall speakers are worth a try if you cannot wait for custom speakers to be designed and made for you!

And by the way, the IW 1002 Be and IW 1003 Be speakers are sold as in-walls. You can then purchase separate frames that turn them into on-wall speakers, if you prefer ;)

Those are my top suggestions for you! I hope they will be of some help, and potentially provide a solution of some kind :)

Merry Christmas!

- Rob H.

[cogipro]

Rob,

Thank you very much for your extensive assessment and recommendations. Indeed it will be very interesting to get Dave's response. Your idea of a custom speaker using Ascend specific drivers and tweeters is very intriguing. The fact is, this system is being placed in new construction for which the framing begins next week. Time is on our side with a completion date of around July 1. I'll check out your other ideas, but since I am in no hurry, Dave's ideas will be most interesting to hear.

Merry Christmas!

Curt C.

[avsnoob10]

Before I bought my Sierra Towers and Horizon all with RAAL little over a year ago, I asked Dave for recommendation for an onwall to match RAAL towers and Horizon and Dave doesn't like the dipolar or bipolar concepts but if you have to have an onwall Dave's recommendation back then was MK Sound tripole design however as far as I know MK does not exists anymore. I have been running my HT in 3.2 format because I do not want my surrounds to be anything other than matching Ascend:) Like Rob said if there is enough interest we can convince Dave for an onwall Sierra. Dave, I hope you are as excited as we are... Merry Christmas everyone!!!

[cogipro]

Sounds like there may be some momentum building here for the on walls. I am thinking that I can modify the structural design of the room to accommodate on walls rather than in walls just to keep the setup all Ascend (minus the sub).

[davef]

I am definitely going to consider this. I want to wait for some Sierra-2 feedback first, if very positive -- I believe this same combination of components would translate very well to a high end on wall speaker.

[FirstReflect]

I am definitely going to consider this. I want to wait for some Sierra-2 feedback first, if very positive -- I believe this same combination of components would translate very well to a high end on wall speaker.

Ermahgerd!

:D :D :D