Which Ascend's for movies?

[Harro]

I currently have the 340se L/C/R along with the 170's as surrounds, but thinking that with the all the different speakers Ascend is now offering I may get better sound from them compared to my current set.

Now that I got my Christmas bonus I was thinking of the Towers with the RAAL and the Horizon with RAAL, will this upgrade make a hugh difference for movies or just for music?
Or would any of the Sierra's be a better fit seeing as I already have the stands?

[FirstReflect]

Depends on your definition of "huge", of course. But, personally, I definitely think it's a very noticeable and worth while upgrade!

You have to realize, Ascend's SE series speakers already have very flat, linear, accurate frequency response both on and off axis. So, the actual pitch and timbre of notes will not sound wildly different in going from the SE series to the Sierra series. Nor should it! Accurate reproduction of notes ought to be a pretty universal goal! And it's why I like the SE series so much. For their price, they do SO much "right" by not deviating away from accurate frequency response.

What you get from the Sierra series is refinement. Most noticeably in the transient response and the "decay" of sounds. The Sierra series have considerably less inertial movement, meaning that when the signal in the recording says to start or stop making a sound, the Sierra series responds faster than the SE series.

You can think of it this way: the SE series do an excellent job of accurately reproducing all of the sounds in a recording. That's a huge achievement, and the most important step, by far! But, they also produce a little bit of extra sound. A little bit of distortion, and a little bit of continued output, even after the signal in the recording said to stop, and to go silent.

So, the Sierra series not only produce all the sounds in the recording accurately, they also do NOT produce any sounds that are NOT in the recording! And the RAAL ribbons do that even better than the already excellent NrT tweeter.

So, that is what you're paying for. If anything, it's the removal of sound, if that makes any sense -- haha. You're not really going to go from the SE series to the Sierra series and be, like, "oh, listen to all those sounds in the recording that I never heard before!". Nope, all the sounds were already there, coming from your SE series.

But, what you WILL get is cleaner, clearer sounds with better delineation between them. It's that whole "air around the notes" description. There's just no residual noise from any sound to carry over into the next sound. Each and every sound in a recording is perfectly clear and separated from every other sound. That's refinement.

Where I think the RAAL tweeters take the sound beyond the NrT tweeter is to that sense of uncanny realism. It takes you from, "I'm listening to excellent speakers", to, "I'm listening to real instruments!" That's a nearly impossible thing to achieve, and it is VERY largely down to the recording itself, as well. It's not like the RAAL upgrade can suddenly make a crappy recording sound like a live performance! It's actually kind of the opposite; crappy recordings are laid bare in all their crappiness -- haha.

But, when you get a good recording? Nirvana. In other threads, I've mentioned that my custom Horizon RAAL speakers gave me an epiphany about listening. In real life, if we go to a live concert, if we're familiar with how things sound live, there's an anticipation factor. We see the bow about to be drawn across the violin strings, and before we even hear the notes, we already anticipate and know what it's going to sound like if we're familiar with the sound of a live violin. That goes for any sound: we anticipate what we're about to hear.

When we get home, and we play a recording, we're still anticipating. It's subconscious. We automatically expect to hear a certain sound and quality to that sound. The vast majority of the time, we don't get it from speakers. It's how we can easily tell that we're listening to speakers, rather than live instruments. But, when the sound we actually hear matches our anticipation? Magic. There's this reward mechanism that goes off in the pleasure sections of our brains. We anticipated something, and then we got it! It's indescribably satisfying. And that's where the RAAL ribbons take you. That's what you're paying hundreds extra for. Frankly, I think it's easily worth thousands ;)

But, you were more concerned with movies. And this is a common thing that I see everywhere that audio is discussed. The common adage seems to be that it's more difficult to reproduce realistic, uncanny, glorious music than it is to play back the audio from a movie. To a certain extent, I understand that thinking. Many movies include sounds that are entirely fabricated. They don't come from existing instruments or voices. Or, they're heavily altered or distorted. There's no anticipation factor for those sounds. So, we don't already expect and know what that sound is going to be ahead of time, like we do with music. If a completely fabricated sound isn't perfectly recreated by the speakers, we'd never know it anyway!

But, I disagree with the general sentiment that movie audio is less demanding than music. In fact, in many, many instances, it's quite the opposite! So much of today's music is completely dynamically compressed. Good recordings aren't. But, they are few and far between these days! Almost all popular music is designed to be heard in a car, or through crappy earbuds. And the quietest whisper to the loudest crescendo are all recorded at the exact same loudness! In fact, because EVERY sound is exactly as loud as every other sound, mixers are even doing crazy things like intentionally pushing certain sounds above 0dBFS, and thus, intentionally clipping the signal to create so much distortion that we interpret it as being louder. We tend to associate more noise and distortion with the sound being louder. So, that is what's going on these days with A LOT of music.

Movies, on the other hand, very much still have dynamics. There are quiet parts of the movie, and then super loud parts. THAT is more challenging for speakers to reproduce accurately. Chalk one up on the movies' side for being a better test of a speaker's capabilities than a great deal of music recordings!

There's also the sheer number of sounds to consider. There can be a tremendous number of sounds coming at you from different directions in a movie. When you hear these recreated accurately, without any superfluous, residual sounds from your speakers, and without any distortion, it can be breathtaking! And with those dynamics in the loudness, there can be really subtle nuances that you've never been able to pick out before. Like I said earlier, listen specifically for them using your SE speakers, and you'll find them. They're there. The SE speakers are playing those sounds. But, through the Sierra series speakers, and the RAAL versions in particular, it's far easier to notice those tiny details and nuances for the first time, because there's no distortion or residual sound that isn't supposed to be there masking them, or covering them up.

So, imagine taking a window and just wiping it perfectly clean. It's not like you couldn't see what was on the other side of the window before. It wasn't filthy or anything. But, when that window is PERFECTLY clean, it's just easier to spot tiny details that you would have had to specifically know about beforehand, and really look for previously.

So, will the Towers and Horizon RAAL make a "huge" difference for movies over the SE series? Well, I think the SE series are already excellent speakers. So, I won't say "huge". ;) But, I will say noticeable. And I will say worthwhile!

I LOVE movies. I honestly think they are a tougher challenge than a great deal of music. And there are plenty of excellent scores in movies that do use real instruments, and that completely make use of that "anticipation factor" that I talked about. Will a completely fabricated laser blast suddenly reveal the secrets of the universe to you when you hear it through the Sierra Towers RAAL instead of the CMT-340SE? No. I don't think so. We've no frame of reference for what that is supposed to sound like, so there's no "right" or "wrong" to it. But, when you hear the orchestral score, or the quiet jazz soundtrack, or the pounding dance music during a club scene? Those things all sound closer to real life. And that's totally noticeable and present in movies.

I do not think you'd be at all disappointed, or have any regrets what-so-ever if you spend the money on the Towers and Horizon RAAL. Let me put it to you that way :) They are immediately noticeable as being clearer than anything you've ever heard before. But, even more than that, once you get used to them a little bit, and then you try to go back to anything else? It's just remarkable. You'll be, like, "how did I ever listen to anything before these Towers RAAL and Horizon RAAL?!"

So, is that "huge" enough? To me it is.

:D

[Harro]

Ah Jonathon, thanks for the reply.
Reading your response to poster's, such as myself has become a morning ritual. I wake up brew my first pot of "joe", sit down at the breakfast table, bring out my tablet and start reading, sort of like reading the morning paper. ;)

I have to admit that reading so much on the towers GREAT ability, I REALLY want them, and will get them, but I may wait until my next bonus. With the excitement of this bonus check my thought went right to the towers, but after thinking about this, I will use the bonus money for 2 more svs pc12+ subs, Emotiva XPA-3 and another set of 170's and this will complete my 11.3 setup. Even though this will cost less than the towers, I will be in great shape for the upgrade to the towers when I get them. I will use the XPA-3 to power the L/C/R channels and have all my satellite speakers running off the 4311ci. With any money left over I will get some theater seats. I feel I can get the best bang for my buck going this route now and wait til later for the towers.

Sorry I so hastily posted this thread but it was like an early Christmas gift that I just wanted to get the Towers NOW.
I thank you for your response and look forward to more morning readings from you.

[FirstReflect]

Hahaha -- thanks! And you're welcome :)

I understand. It's a big purchase either way! If you're running one subwoofer right now, having dual subs will certainly give your system a big, big, awesome improvement! That's an easy decision to support.

I feel I must caution you about a three subwoofer setup, though. Unless you've got it planned out where one of the three subwoofers is elevated, it's actually better to either use two subwoofers, or four. Three subwoofers all on the floor will cause more unevenness in the bass response from seat to seat, and larger peaks and nulls than using two or four subwoofers. So, I just didn't want you spending all that money, only to get disappointing results! Going from one to two subwoofers can be a HUGE upgrade. But, going from two to three is actually a downgrade. It makes the uniformity of the frequency response in your room worse, not better. I know, seems to go against intuition, but that is the case! The exception is if you elevate the third subwoofer, and mathematically figure out the ideal height for its placement so that it will even out the frequency response in the vertical direction. If that's your plan, then you're in good shape with three ;) But, I just wanted to double check :)

Also, your 4311 might be different, but in my 11 speaker setup with my Onkyo 5010, I had no option to use the internal amps of the 5010 to power the Front Wide channels. What I mean is, when using all 11 channels in the Main Zone, there is no longer an option to assign the internal amps to whatever channels you want. When I activate 11 speakers in the Main Zone, the 9 internal amps become fixed, and the Front Wide channels MUST be powered by an external 2-channel amp. I can still power any of the other 9 speakers with external amps using the pre-outs of the 5010 if I want to. But, I cannot tell my 5010 to use its 9 internal amps to power, say, the Center, Surrounds, Surround Backs, Front Height & Front Wide channels, and then use an external 2-channel amp for my Front Main Left & Right speakers. That would still equal 11 speakers, but the 5010 won't let me assign the amps that way. They are locked to powering the Front Mains, Center, Surrounds, Surround Backs, and Front Heights. And the Front Wides then MUST be powered externally.

Like I say, your 4311 might be different. But, just double check the manual ;) If it's the same situation as with my 5010, it's not the end of the world. You could use the XPA-3 to power your Center and Front Wides. But, if I were using the XPA-3 in my setup with my 5010, I would HAVE to do that. I would not have the option to use that XPA-3 to power my Front Mains and Center. I'd still have to add another 2-channel amp to power the Front Wides. So, I just thought that was worth a quick double check of the manual for you ;)

Finally, I do love having an 11 speaker setup. It's very satisfying to know that I've pretty much maxed out what's possible with a home system these days :D But, I have to say, I'm finding very little worthwhile about the Front Height speaker channels. I've done a lot of listening and comparison of all the various listening modes. I LOVE having the Front Wide channels. I think those add tremendously to the experience and the seamlessness of circling panning sounds. But, I've really not found the Front Heights to add much of anything to the experience.

Now, I'm not saying to avoid them. You might really like them, and find them far more worthwhile than I. But, I just don't want you to get your hopes up too high about the Front Heights. If I had to pick, there's be zero contest for me between the Front Heights and the Front Wides. The Front Wides add so much! The Front Heights really don't do much of anything for me :p

Either way you go, these will be some really nice upgrades! I've no where left to go in my upgrade path, really. I will be upgrading all of my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2, eventually. That'll be the biggest thing left for me! Other than that, I suppose I could get a monoblock amp for each and every speaker in my system. And I could get the Marantz AV8801 so I would have a balanced XLR connection to each amp. And I could go to four PC13-Ultra instead of two. But, honestly, all of those things are pretty dubious in terms of actual audible improvements. I'd be doing them just to do them. Just to have the "ultimate". But, I highly, highly doubt they'd be genuinely worthwhile and audible upgrades. Upgrading the Sierra-1 NrT speakers in my system to Sierra-2; that's the only worthwhile upgrade ahead of me.

So, in a way, I envy that you'll still have the Sierra Tower RAAL and Horizon RAAL upgrade ahead of you. You KNOW there's a very worthwhile upgrade still ahead of you! After that, you'll be like me: forced to just listen to your system and enjoy it immensely, with no more gear to lust after. It's tough, y'know?

Hahaha :D

[Kisakuku]

Also, your 4311 might be different, but in my 11 speaker setup with my Onkyo 5010, I had no option to use the internal amps of the 5010 to power the Front Wide channels. What I mean is, when using all 11 channels in the Main Zone, there is no longer an option to assign the internal amps to whatever channels you want. When I activate 11 speakers in the Main Zone, the 9 internal amps become fixed, and the Front Wide channels MUST be powered by an external 2-channel amp. I can still power any of the other 9 speakers with external amps using the pre-outs of the 5010 if I want to. But, I cannot tell my 5010 to use its 9 internal amps to power, say, the Center, Surrounds, Surround Backs, Front Height & Front Wide channels, and then use an external 2-channel amp for my Front Main Left & Right speakers. That would still equal 11 speakers, but the 5010 won't let me assign the amps that way. They are locked to powering the Front Mains, Center, Surrounds, Surround Backs, and Front Heights. And the Front Wides then MUST be powered externally.



4311 lets you select either fronts or heights as externally amplified channels in 11.x mode.

[Dark Ranger]

So, in a way, I envy that you'll still have the Sierra Tower RAAL and Horizon RAAL upgrade ahead of you. You KNOW there's a very worthwhile upgrade still ahead of you! After that, you'll be like me: forced to just listen to your system and enjoy it immensely, with no more gear to lust after. It's tough, y'know?

Although upgrades certainly are fun, it's also a good feeling not to have upgrade-itis hanging over you. I'm finally at that point after about 2.5 years. I can just enjoy the system without nagging thoughts and lust for equipment on the Wish List. :p I see you in a similar position. You've got one of the best surround systems I've ever seen. You're pretty much all set on the speaker front. Electronics upgrades may be fun to play around with, but you've got the essentials more than covered.

There's a member on another forum I frequent that has this personal quote in his profile: "I'm done chasing!" He might be referring to something else, but I like to think it means that he's done chasing after upgrades and such. He's content with his system. That's very much where I am now (after the Sierra-2 arrives of course ;)). There are really just two more pieces that I'm looking at, but there's no rush. One of them is a turntable which hasn't even been released yet. I've been considering trying out vinyl to see what all the fuss is about.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that not having to think about upgrades is also a great feeling. :cool:

[Harro]

I understand about 3 subs, so to see what my room may look like I ran REW room simulator.
Here is the graph it posted with 3 subs at a crossover on the subs at 120.http://i.imgur.com/9EXW3gV.jpg
I think it looks pretty good but I do not know enough about reading graphs to say if that is true or not. It looks to me to be rather flat from 70 down. The 70 up should be taken care of easily with the 340's and 170's, as far as my understanding goes. I did the sim also with just 2 subs placed on opposite sides of the room and the graph came out almost the same as with 3, but with 3 I gained some headroom. But like I say I am a rookie on all this. :)

You have me thinking about the heights now, and yes the wides did make a big improvement to the listening experience. But then again I think down the road that the sound tracks coming from the movies will or hopefully include more channels in their mix, so adding heights now, I would have them, but then again I could save some cash now and upgrade to the heights when that happens. Oh crap here I thought I had a good game plan and now I am wondering what to do again. LOL

Ok need to think about this again.

I came up with an idea, how about I sell all my stuff and move in with you and bring my 36TB nas along and we all can enjoy 2400 movies and 150 TV shows non stop. :eek:

Thanks for all the replies.

[pierreterrier]

Dark Ranger I'm real happy to hear you are considering the world of turntables and since you seem very thorough in researching things this probably won't tell you anything you won't find out or already know but here are some of the important things I found out that you will most likely be faced with:

First the turntable in order to give you the wow experience that audiophiles or music lovers like me rave about will most likely have to be more expensive than any other part of your system. In my case the towers with raals set me back under $3,000 while the turntable and the cartridge were just under $4,000. As for the amp/preamp, as often mentioned here, no need to spend big bucks there, it should be the least expensive part of the system. Of course the reason for spending that much on the turntable/cartridge is because it is the source of the system, what will extract the music out. And in a turntable system it is much more complicated to extract the best sound than on any digital system.

And then the real fun starts; adjusting your turntable tonearm and cartridge.

It will take hours finding what works best for your ears. As an example it took me 105 hours of music listening before I knew I had it with my current setup. But my VPI classic turntable is far from being easy to adjust since it is a uni pivot point tonearm, also called a drunken sailor in the industry:). I mean to get everything right is like working on watches, minute misalignements will have big repercussions. To add to that the uni pivot point rests in a container which you can add silicone to in order to get the sound you like best. More silicone, bigger bass less clarity, no silicone ultimate clarity less bass, the perfect setting for me turned out to be 2 drops. It may sound nuts but in reality you are completely in control of the sound with a top of the line turntable that has all the adjustments features. And there are plenty; overhang adjustment (using a jig to install the cartridge onto the tonearm), setting the tracking force, setting the azimuth, adjusting the anti skating and the tone arm height to get the correct stylus rake. All those are the major ones that you absolutely need to have if you ever want to be able to reach the full potential of a turntable. Any turntable with anything automatic or non adjustable features is pointless.

Then of course what record you'll play has everything to do with the sound. By example records from the 90s were mostly recorded digitally and done in very poor fashion resulting in a flat sound regardless how your turntable is adjusted. However since then many record companies have realized their erring ways and are now issuing brand new fantastic sounding albums in analog and are also reissuing gems from the past from the original analog master tapes and now we're talking. Of course going to used record stores and finding gems from the seventies when some of the best ever recorded albums were made is a great alternative (1973 to 1982 usually being the best). It is my favorite hobby by far. In the end it's audio nirvana for me but it comes with a big price and is a much more complicated process than anything done with a digital set up. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it couldn't be any truer about turntables. Just thought you should know.

[bkdc]

I recall that Dave previously steered prior customers to the NrT tweeters rather than the RAALs on the Sierra Towers for home theater use.

[Kisakuku]

I recall that Dave previously steered prior customers to the NrT tweeters rather than the RAALs on the Sierra Towers for home theater use.

For the reasons of cost only.

[Dark Ranger]

Dark Ranger I'm real happy to hear you are considering the world of turntables...

...

...The more you put into it, the more you get out of it couldn't be any truer about turntables. Just thought you should know.

Hi pierreterrier,

I really appreciate your advice and suggestions. Indeed, analog turntables are a very different animal than the digital systems I'm familiar with. It requires a different approach. I'm willing to invest the time to learn and experiment. Budget may end up being the limiting factor though. Might have to save up a little longer for something decent. :)

I've bookmarked your post for future reference. Thank you!

[pierreterrier]

You're very welcome. Some of you guys helped me so much in making my decision to purchase the Towers with Raals I figure I should return the favor speaking about things I know a little about.

[markie]

Pierre, wow, I had no idea there were such intricacies involved with turntables. Very educational, thanks!

Dark Ranger, might you be waiting for a turntable from Emotiva? :) I just listened to their podcast and there is one in the pike. They also have just released a separate phono preamp XPS-1 for $150, because the upcoming XMC-1 won't have a phono section. Heck they also have some tubed products on the way as well! Impressively most of these products will now be made in the USA, apparently.

Now back on topic. Which Ascends for movies? All of them :)

Mark

[Dark Ranger]

Dark Ranger, might you be waiting for a turntable from Emotiva? :)

Good guess, markie! You got it right. :)


I just listened to their podcast and there is one in the pike.

It was first announced during Emofest 2013 (September) and was shown as a prototype only. Emotiva worked alongside of Clearaudio (Germany) to create a prototype similar to the Concept. Since then, some things have changed and we've learned that the TT will be made in USA and will be CNC-milled. I'm really excited about that!


They also have just released a separate phono preamp XPS-1 for $150, because the upcoming XMC-1 won't have a phono section.

Indeed, the XPS-1 has been a long time coming (well over a year), but it's now available and it's the same exceptional phono stage from their reference XSP-1 analog preamplifier. When I'm ready to step foot into the world of vinyl, I'll be picking up one of these external phono stages.

I've rejected the idea of just buying a cheap ($150) TT to try things out. Actually, my only real experience with vinyl so far is when I was a child. My parents had a Sanyo 3-in-1 audio player--AM/FM radio, 8-track deck, and phonograph all built into one unit. One of my favorite records was played at Christmas time and I still have very fond memories of that setup. I figured if I was going to rediscover the magic I remembered, it's worth investing more dough to get a competent setup. I've purchased the best speakers, subwoofer, and electronics that I can afford right now, why not do the same with the TT stuff?

The Pro-Ject Debut Carbon looks like a great entry-level table. I actually considered it for a long time. Also, I really like the Pro-Ject RPM 10.1 Evolution, but I cannot justify $3,000 for a TT right now, and that's not including the cartridge.

Pierreterrier has a very nice table (VPI Classic 1) and cartridge (Soundsmith Zephyr). I may not be able to match that level of quality at first, but I'm shooting for around $1,000 - $1,500 for a table + cartridge. That should be decent enough to determine if I want to continue onward with analog vinyl. My interest with Emotiva's TT is because they bring the value factor to everything they make. 99% of my electronics, from source to amp, are from Emotiva. I now have the system I've always dreamed of, but without dumping $20,000 into the hobby. My point is that I'm definitely willing to consider their take on a TT. Some hardcore vinyl enthusiasts might scoff, but hey, if it gets me into the world of vinyl, is that really a bad thing? :)


My apologies to OP for taking this thread off-course.

[pierreterrier]

The pro-ject debut tables are very nice. I still have one and it's hooked up to a different system. I use it to listen to used albums I purchase to check if they are in the kind of condition I need them to be in so I can decide whether they can become part of my collection or not. Once the album is found to be in fine audio condition I fully wash it and only then I can play it on the VPI. A thousand dollar cartridge is too valuable to play a dirty record with. Keep in mind the debut is still an entry table though (debut = beginning in french) and many adjustments are just not available on it. But considering its limitations it's the best table under $500 imo. Unfortunately it will always go back to this about turntables: Having as many adjustable features as you can afford will always be the most important thing and that's when the cost goes up. If you don't have them all, there will always be a time when you'll wish you could adjust this or that but you just don't have it and there is no way to add it later on. Once you have a quality table with all the adjustments capabilities you should basically be set for life other than your cartridge. Plenty of room there to upgrade your sound with better cartridges. The beauty with the Zephyr cartridge is it is designed specifically for the VPI classic, meaning Soundsmith made it a perfect match for the uni pivot tonearm design. And the cool part is VPI and Soundsmith are two completely different companies even so both located in New-Jersey (everything they do is built there and it's all made in the USA) but they worked together on that project. My recommendation to you would be to spend as much on the turntable as you can so you get as many features as you can afford and get a cheap cartridge to start, you can always upgrade that later.Believe me when I tell you if you go vinyl the right way you will never go back for music purposes, it's that good.

[pierreterrier]

Right now I'm listening to red hot chili peppers Blood sugar sex magik, a 2011 press cut from the original analog master tapes of 1991. UNBELIEVABLE! Wish everyone could hear those Towers, the bass is absolute killer on this album, no sub :).

[Dark Ranger]

pierreterrier,

I wanted to send you a PM to continue this topic outside of OP's thread (since it's off-topic). However, your user account is not set up to accept PMs. Let me know if there's a better way to reach you. :)

[Galaga]

I recall that Dave previously steered prior customers to the NrT tweeters rather than the RAALs on the Sierra Towers for home theater use.


For the reasons of cost only.

Is that because the cost of spending more $$$ on the raal ribbons is unjustified for ht use or simply because the customer was trying to come in under budget? Just wondering because I'm considering the same upgrade as OP, though my usage is about 50/50 music/ht. So I guess it doesn't matter as much in my case, but I still had some of the questions as OP.

[davef]

Is that because the cost of spending more $$$ on the raal ribbons is unjustified for ht use or simply because the customer was trying to come in under budget? Just wondering because I'm considering the same upgrade as OP, though my usage is about 50/50 music/ht. So I guess it doesn't matter as much in my case, but I still had some of the questions as OP.

The RAAL ribbon upgrade does not have any negatives with regard to home theater, but much of their benefits are not nearly as audible with home theater sources compared to music. With 50/50 usage and if the ribbons are within your budget, I definitely recommend going with them :)