Achieving much better sound could be just one component away :)

[markie]

I thought you guys would be amused, and perhaps intrigued, by something I just found on AudioCircle. A guy has a sweet rig, including vinyl and tubes. But he finds that music coming through his cablebox of all things puts it all to shame! Why exactly this at would be is a still a mystery. But it tells me something is wrong somewhere in the chain, because his system *should* sound better than his cablebox!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=121535

It also goes to show that reasonably conscious people are not slaves to expectation bias!

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

Define 'better'... Better is subjective right?

As for me I'm not surprised. Vinyl and tube technology is rather ancient now. It's funny when you think about it, that in audio some still think it's better than current technology. LOL

What I find surprising is that someone who seems to have been quite into vinyl and tubes has the honesty to admit that his vinyls and tubes actually might sound worse than digital and solid state. Most don't have that intellectual integrity and the fact that they've wasted thousands of dollars is far too frightening to admit. So they'd just reject that possibility.

[markie]

For sure, better is subjective when it comes to appreciation of audio. But when the vast majority of listeners say something is better, then, well, we can pretty much say it is just ... better. :)

In the case of the person who posted that his cablebox sounded better, it was such a noticeably positive difference that I have very little doubt that the vast majority of listeners would agree with his assessment if they were to listen for themselves. An assumption on my part.

I happen to believe that the great majority of people *do* have the integrity to admit when something sounds much better to them than their own prized system, even if it costs much less.

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

Define 'better'...

For sure, better is subjective when it comes to appreciation of audio. But when the vast majority of listeners say something is better, then, well, we can pretty much say it is just ... better.
You've not really defined 'better', looks to me like you've done more of an appeal to the masses rather than define what 'better' actually is. "Argumentum ad populum", it's a logical fallacy.

Popular does not mean it's better. For instance, B053 or Monster are more popular than Ascend. Does that mean they're better? If by better you mean they've sold more units then ok... But that's not 'better'.


I happen to believe that the great majority of people *do* have the integrity to admit when something sounds much better to them than their own prized system, even if it costs much less.
I disagree. I believe most vinyl/tube audiophiles would not allow themselves to prefer digital/ss above tubes/vinyls. Just like Apple iCrap, Monster Beats, etc., it's often a status/fashion statement more than actual performance. If it's analog it's better, either you know this or you're lower-class and/or not a true audiophile.

I'd bet a thousand bucks that in a DBT test, a listener couldn't tell the difference between the same mix played on a vinyl pressing vs a WAV file with added snaps/crackles/pops & EQ'd as to match the vinyl+turntable FR aberrations.

It's the same thing as when people taste wine, the most expensive wine always comes out on top, even when they're drinking cheap wine, just the fact that the bottle is labeled 50$ instead of 7$ makes it taste a lot better.

[Harro]

It's the same thing as when people taste wine, the most expensive wine always comes out on top, even when they're drinking cheap wine, just the fact that the bottle is labeled 50$ instead of 7$ makes it taste a lot better.

You mean that guy on the side of the road selling me wine for 100.00 in a cardboard container stating it was the best, really was only grape juice? :P

[GirgleMirt]

lol, u dont want to know where that bitterness came from ;)

It's always surprising, the tube thing also spread other places. Guitar for example, so many guitarists so deeply believe tubes sound better, some companies included tubes on some pedals where the tubes weren't even part of the circuit... Simply there for guitarists to believe they were analog and so better sounding than ss...

Another 1000$ wager I'd do; real tube amp vs solid state with tube modeling. I'd bet nobody could tell them apart...

[petmotel]

Yep, add a pair of Ascend speakers, and you're there! Oh wait that might be two components?

Jay

[markie]

Speaking of two components, today I read an article at cnet which asked the question : can it pay off to get separates (amps + processor) instead of a single receiver? Steve Guttenburg thinks it does, at least in the case he evaluated. Oddly, the two Emotiva components were exactly the same two I'm planning on getting.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57573961-47/do-separate-components-sound-better-than-av-receivers-part-2/

As the Ascend speakers get more revealing, the upstream components become that much more important.

Mark

[markie]

Another component to consider are the audio cables. As someone shared recently here, some people have discovered that their supposedly high grade audiophile cables were at fault for introducing surprisingly high noise or other unwanted artifacts into the sound. Another possible problem is with an unsatisfactory contact of the speaker wire with terminals. I've heard that banana plugs provide better than average contact.

Mark

[markie]

This last weekend the AXPONA audio show took place in Chicago. It may be the second largest such show in the US, behind Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. As is usual at such shows, vendors are left scrambling to get their rooms sounding the best they can. Often a room will sound relatively poorly on the first day of the show, but by the end of the show tweaks to the system/room have greatly improved the sound.

What did the vendors do to improve things? It really varies. But the point is that significantly better sound in the same room can be achieved with some effort.

This is an enjoyable video from AVshowreports, where two veterans who clearly love music and good sound report on what they heard at AXPONA. (I just recently discovered AVshowreports and plan to watch many more of their videos!) Starting around the 6:35 minute mark there is a fascinating discussion about the difference going from digital to analogue made in a room that had both.

But more than anything the video interview gives one an idea of what seasoned music lovers value in their listening experience. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrmbTDbvHPA

Mark

[sunlight99]

Vodka suppose to have no taste because it's distilled, but some people still think some brand taste better than others. It's a mystery isn't it?:)

[markie]

Vodka suppose to have no taste because it's distilled, but some people still think some brand taste better than others. It's a mystery isn't it?:)

Hehe! Many have declared that all Vodkas, without any glaring defects and sipped within proper parameters, taste the same - like nothing. :D

But really, from http://www.greatvodka.com/vodkaMyths.htm



At the risk of shattering some dreams, here we attempt to debunk some of the great vodka myths!

Myth #1 All vodkas are the same.
All vodkas are not the same. While vodka is, by legal definition, “A neutral spirit without distinctive character,” without distinctive character does not mean “no flavor.” Vodka is a delicate spirit that can be easily overpowered in cocktails. Many different vodkas will taste the same in your favorite drink. However, when evaluated straight or with a little water, individual attributes will shine through.

In addition, the nose and cleanliness — absence of “heads” and “tails” of the vodka — impact your experience.

Big differences between vodkas result from the quality and type of the raw materials used, the distillation technique and the quality of the bottling.

[bkdc]

It's all subjective.

Basically, what the vinyl/tube fans are saying is that intentional distortion in sound can be pleasing to the ears.

They are willing to pay oodles of extra money to hear intentional distortion introduced into their sound system.

I'm of the group that the best improvement comes from placement and treatment of the room itself.

[Xcalibur]

lol, u dont want to know where that bitterness came from ;)

It's always surprising, the tube thing also spread other places. Guitar for example, so many guitarists so deeply believe tubes sound better, some companies included tubes on some pedals where the tubes weren't even part of the circuit... Simply there for guitarists to believe they were analog and so better sounding than ss...

Another 1000$ wager I'd do; real tube amp vs solid state with tube modeling. I'd bet nobody could tell them apart...

Guitarists prefer tubes because of their overdrive behavior. Tubes soft clip when overdriven, as opposed to SS which hard clips. The result is two very different, and very easy to hear, types of distortion. How a guitar distorts plays a big part of the sound the player is looking to achieve.

To an extent this is also true of audiophile tube gear. It isn't about what a tube amp does have but rather what it lacks: diode switching noise, odd order harmonics, feedback..... all of these things make music sound harsh and less realistic. A well designed tube amp doesn't sound "tubey" it just sounds neutral and correct only it has certain advantages over SS in terms of not creating noise that the human ear finds to be very unpleasant, noise that transistors all produce.

The very first tubes for audio use, DHTs or directly heated triodes, are the most linear and distortion free amplification devices ever invented. This can be proven through measurement as well as listening. The reason they aren't still used widely is because they make very little power, are very inefficient, and are made by hand via craftsmen instead of being mass produced. Convenience wins over performance, much like how the world is dominated by mp3s today.

Your comments sound like bashing based on things you've heard or read rather than actual experience with good examples of the products in question. I've had the pleasure of using both amplification types and find both to be excellent when well designed, but a properly implemented tube amp produces tone colors and harmonics in a way that is all but impossible to do with transistors.

[Audiolover458]

Was ASCEND Represented at AXPONA?

[markie]

Was ASCEND Represented at AXPONA?

I don't believe Ascend does any shows. Shows are both money and time intensive, and Ascend prefers a different path than this type of advertisement (I figure).

Mark

[davef]

I don't believe Ascend does any shows. Shows are both money and time intensive, and Ascend prefers a different path than this type of advertisement (I figure).

Mark

It's really not the expense -- more so my own patience. I have been attending audio shows since the late 80's, and have thoroughly lost my taste for them quite some time ago. I enjoy going to CES in Vegas every year, but that is to meet with our many vendors and check out cool new gadgets. Even CES has soured for me a bit ever since CES and AVN no longer share the same time period. My cousin owns a few different companies that always display at AVN (Adult Entertainment Expo) Now those were some CRAZY times!

[markie]

Here's another interesting and unexpected observation by a listener which I just saw over at AudioCircle.

He has two external hard drives (with the same music files) which he has fed into his Bryston digital player via USB. They sound different, with one much preferred. The question is, why would this be so? Not sure just yet. His post is below.

Mark


I had been using a WD Passport portable 2.5" external HDD. I backed up my computer's HDD using an OWC external WD Green 3TB HDD and decided to try it in my BDP-1. I powered the OWC external with a linear power supply. I was very surprised to hear how different this sounds vs the WD Passport. The portable sounds much better - open, extended with great dynamic bass. The OWC was rolled off in both extremes, lacked dynamics and was very warm and soft sounding. I switched back and forth with the same results each time.

I am now trying to figure out why they would sound so different.

The WD Passport is powered by the USB 5v that it is receiving from the BDP-1 through a USB-3 cable.
Perhaps it is the cleaner BDP-1 power supply?
USB 3.0 cable

The OWC/WD Green is powered by a linear power supply.
Perhaps the power supply is noisy? (Keces)
Perhaps the umbilical from the Keces to the OWC is picking up noise.
USB 2.0 cable? I switched a couple of cables and they definitely sounded different from each other. A Belden was very warm while a generic was a little more extended.

I am going to experiment further but am quite surprised by the difference.

[bkdc]

Here's another interesting and unexpected observation by a listener which I just saw over at AudioCircle.

He has two external hard drives (with the same music files) which he has fed into his Bryston digital player via USB. They sound different, with one much preferred. The question is, why would this be so? Not sure just yet. His post is below.

[/I]

The guy is hallucinating. Identical digital data is being passed from each hard drive to his DAC.

[dislocatedday]

I'd bet a thousand bucks that in a DBT test, a listener couldn't tell the difference between the same mix played on a vinyl pressing vs a WAV file with added snaps/crackles/pops & EQ'd as to match the vinyl+turntable FR aberrations.
[/I].

There are too many generalizations being thrown about in this thread. The debates about 'vinyl/analog' vs' 'digital' happen all too frequently with the threads often turning into a 'us' against 'them' (..not saying that happens in this forum, but other forums it does..).

Referring to anyone as foolish and snobbish for enjoying and preferring the vinyl format to digital is itself a rather snobbish statement (just as any person who prefers vinyl looking down on a person who is all digital is snobbish).

The quoted statement above does not take into account 'mastering' differences between different versions of albums (the same mix, but different mastering and possibly different source tapes were used if it was originally an analog recording).

I have a vast collection of both vinyl and digital music (CDs, SACDs, DVD-As, BDs, and some downloads). I do not think vinyl is superior to digital or vice versa, but I do have many albums where the best mastering is the vinyl version. In these cases, the vinyl versions typically are not nearly as compressed as the CD or other digital versions. The statement about adding EQ to a digital version to match the vinyl and adding 'crackles and pops' would not account for any dynamic range compression differences. Those can't be undone.

[bkdc]

Guitarists prefer tubes because of their overdrive behavior. Tubes soft clip when overdriven, as opposed to SS which hard clips. The result is two very different, and very easy to hear, types of distortion. How a guitar distorts plays a big part of the sound the player is looking to achieve.


The answer is to get a more powerful solid state amplifier. Unless the guitarist wants to hear tube distortion from an overdriven tube amp. The caveat when it comes to amps has been stated and restated --- the comparison of amps occurs when an amplifier is driven well within its specified limitations of power. Anyone who complains about amplifier distortion as a reason for preferring a tube amp really should reframe his mindset. That's like complaining complaining about your Honda's Civic's performance as you drive to drive it on the racetrack. The answer is to get an amplifier that can handle what you throw at it.

All arguments go out the door if someone is intentionally trying to achieve the sound of tube amplifier distortion.

[davef]

The guy is hallucinating. Identical digital data is being passed from each hard drive to his DAC.

People seem to forget that the only information being passed from the hard drive is either a zero or a one. (off or on). The only possible way two different hard drives can "sound" different from one another is if one is experiencing read errors or if the source file contained on one is different from the source on the other one.

So, if the source file is identical and they do actually sound different -- it is not because one technically sounds different -- but because one of the hard drives is generating digital errors (of which there can be several causes)

[GirgleMirt]

Referring to anyone as foolish and snobbish for enjoying and preferring the vinyl format to digital is itself a rather snobbish statement (just as any person who prefers vinyl looking down on a person who is all digital is snobbish).
Is it really? There's as much vinyl fanboys as there are Apple, ****, Monster and other garbage. I've literally heard people scuff and walk out of audio rooms because there wasn't a turntable in a 50000$ system... Yet the same people had no issue listening to an very old and worn vinyl with ample artifacts. It's mental. It's like scoffing at a model with a pimple, then gushing over another with smallpox.

https://youtu.be/v9JQsXPd41U?t=1m30s



I'd bet a thousand bucks that in a DBT test, a listener couldn't tell the difference between the same mix played on a vinyl pressing vs a WAV file with added snaps/crackles/pops & EQ'd as to match the vinyl+turntable FR aberrations. The quoted statement above does not take into account 'mastering' differences between different versions of albums (the same mix, but different mastering and possibly different source tapes were used if it was originally an analog recording).
Of course it doesn't... What is of interest is the actual quality of the medium; vinyl vs cd. There's no contention that the actual content of a medium might differ, but it's besides the point when considering the actual quality of the medium. Which is the entire point here. My contention is that most who praise vinyl for its superior audio qualities vs CDs are deluded, and that if you added snaps crackles and pops, messed with the FR, added distortion all the other negatives of vinyls to cd quality sound, only a minority, if even that, could tell the difference.

I have absolutely no issue with someone who says that he enjoys vinyl, and if it's because of better mixes, hard to find or non-available recordings, etc., I am 100% for it. My issue arises when people claim that it's better than cd. Better how? "It sounds better"... Oh really?



I have a vast collection of both vinyl and digital music (CDs, SACDs, DVD-As, BDs, and some downloads). I do not think vinyl is superior to digital or vice versa, but I do have many albums where the best mastering is the vinyl version. In these cases, the vinyl versions typically are not nearly as compressed as the CD or other digital versions. The statement about adding EQ to a digital version to match the vinyl and adding 'crackles and pops' would not account for any dynamic range compression differences. Those can't be undone.
Of course, and the opposite is true too. If you have a worse recording/mastering/mixing on a vinyl than you have on a CD, the CD will clearly sound better. But that's beside the point of the actual medium. A vinyl degrades with each play. What is the % of pristine records in your average vinyl collection? It usually takes less than 1 second to differentiate a vinyl from a cd because of all the noise & artifacts of a vinyl... It's not a subtle difference...

Sure, if you have a 10000$ turntable, it doesn't damage the vinyl as much as if you have a normal turntable, and it doesn't sound as bad as a 500$ turntable, yadda yadda... Point is a 100$ Sony cd player can play the same CD 500 times and it'll sound exactly the same as on the 1st play... And the 100$ cd player will sound cleaner than vinyl... And seriously, if the source; the vinyl, isn't pristine, wtf is the point of the high end turntable? It's like getting the RAAL towers and using this (http://static.toysrus.co.uk//medias/sys_master/8609834810041920.jpg) + radio as a source...

Seriously, how can some argue that vinyl is superior to cd? It's ridiculous...

[bkdc]

Seriously, how can some argue that vinyl is superior to cd? It's ridiculous...

Amen. You can certainly 'prefer' the sound of vinyl, but the digital CD played is closer to the original master than the vinyl played even on the best quality phonograph. The sound quality degradation from analog playback exceeds any issues with sound degradation from aliasing due to digital sample rate.

Digital reproduces sound with less distortion and degradation than analog. Period. I'll take 0's and 1's over the vinyl any day, please.

[GirgleMirt]

So, if the source file is identical and they do actually sound different -- it is not because one technically sounds different -- but because one of the hard drives is generating digital errors (of which there can be several causes)

Actually, I don't think it's even possible given error detection and correction... Ok, maybe not impossible, the odds are so low vs considering the alternative; someone imagining it, that it's not even worth considering!


Anyone who complains about amplifier distortion as a reason for preferring a tube amp really should reframe his mindset. That's like complaining complaining about your Honda's Civic's performance as you drive to drive it on the racetrack. The answer is to get an amplifier that can handle what you throw at it.
This. Or, it's like complaining that the speeding ticket you can get with a Ferrari is much worse than the speeding ticket you can get in your Civic... Hence, a Honda is a much better sports car than a Ferrari. What is unarguable, for the price/performance ratio of tubes/ss, ss gives you amply more power at a fraction of the price. So for pretty much any reasonably priced amplifier, you'll reach distortion & clipping MUCH sooner with tubes than SS, and watt for watt, tubes will distort significantly more... Point is when your tubes are clipping & distorting significantly, basically any similarly priced SS will be playing effortlessly @ < 0.05% THD...

And as I stated earlier, if distortion is somehow beneficial, why not do it via emulation? I'm sure most couldn't tell the difference between a SS with emulated tube distortion vs a real distorting tube amplifier... And that way you don't have to contend with primitive tube technology & all it's drawbacks...

Shit I need to do it one day. Blind test. System A: CD + SS vs System B, the same CD + SS except with vinyl noise & artifact emulation + tube emulation. Then bring in the tube & vinyl crowd so they can rave on how much better system B sounds vs system A... :D

[markie]

People seem to forget that the only information being passed from the hard drive is either a zero or a one. (off or on). The only possible way two different hard drives can "sound" different from one another is if one is experiencing read errors or if the source file contained on one is different from the source on the other one.

So, if the source file is identical and they do actually sound different -- it is not because one technically sounds different -- but because one of the hard drives is generating digital errors (of which there can be several causes)

I'm thinking it is how the hard drive is powered, and the resultant electrical noise propagation through the data cable. Someone posted just yesterday on the same thread and I include it below.

Mark


I have experimented with various usb bus and external supplies. I am using a 1 TB Samsung SSD initially mounted in an " external enclosure". The enclosure provided the option of USB Bus power, Wall wart external supply, and E-sata power from the BDP-2 using the USB only for signal.

http://www.amazon.com/MiniPro-eSATA-6Gbps-External-Enclosure/dp/B003XEZ33Y/ref=sr_1_34?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1426618414&sr=1-34&keywords=usb+3+ssd+enclosure

The results were intriguing, and clearly confirmed the importance of power supply quality to sound.

First, the external DC power supplies were consistently the worst. I had 2 different wall warts to try, with same specs. Both provided the most closed sound, with the least air and the most "edge" to the extreme highs. Same consistent results whether plugged in to conditioner, wall, same AC circuit or separate. I believe these are cheaply made power supplies, likely spitting out plenty of noise/hash.

Second, USB Bus power from the BDP. Better for sure. Interestingly, there were subtle differences between different usb cables, which was surprising for a non-streaming setup. Probably all about noise.

Third, power from e-sata cable, with signal thru USB. Punchier, much better bass. This was the best external setup, until...

Fourth, internalized SSD powered via sata. That's where I am today. Great all around sound, and no worries about extra power cables and usb cables hanging around and jiggling loose. Sonically and aesthetically the best setup for me.

[bkdc]

I'm thinking it is how the hard drive is powered, and the resultant electrical noise propagation through the data cable. Someone posted just yesterday on the same thread and I include it below.

Mark


I have experimented with various usb bus and external supplies. I am using a 1 TB Samsung SSD initially mounted in an " external enclosure". The enclosure provided the option of USB Bus power, Wall wart external supply, and E-sata power from the BDP-2 using the USB only for signal.



Although it is possible to get noise from an analog circuit (like through an amplifier) through ground loops and EMI, the power supply argument is really a horrible argument. You're talking about the transfer of digital data. You're still talking bout 0's and 1's. Other than read errors, there is no "noise". Yes, USB cables can transmit EMI, but if the digital data were being constantly corrupted, you would find that checksums for data files transferred over USB cables would consistently result in corrupted files. You and I both know that USB cables copy/transfer data reliably, and files do not regularly get corrupted even over the cheapest USB cables. Think of all those megabytes or gigabytes of data, none of which contain mistakes. You would have to argue that these are regularly transmitting mistaken 0's versus 1's. That just isn't the case.

The argument being made is that this noisy electrical device is now transmitting EMI to the digital audio converter -> amplifier -> speaker chain. BULLCROCK. Firstly, a decent DAC and amplifier will protect against this phantom suspected EMI noise. And even if you did suffer from a problem, what you would hear is background hiss at very low levels, but the quality of the music would otherwise be unaltered. Nothing would sound punchier or smoother or more metallic, etc. You are talking about audiophiles who claim to hear differences when no differences exist. The fallibility of the person's memory of sound quality is the most likely explanation here. These people who claim to hear differences between two amplifiers but would easily fail a blinded test .... these people who overestimate their ability to discern indiscernable differences. They describe two high quality amplifiers as metallic or punchy or harsh or warm or smooth when there is absolutely no processing or EQ involved other than an attempt at clean amplification. It defies logic. And that's what it is. Illogical.

[Beave]

+1. Stop reading the nonsense on whatever forum that is.

[markie]

To bkdc: Thank you, Mr. Spock. :)

To Beave: It was from AudioCircle. I'm naturally a curious person so things like this actually prompt me to read more. So, for instance, I just came across the article below from another site which describes a similar situation. It raises more questions than it answers, but guys like me find it - as Mr. Spock might put it - fascinating. (Either from a technical or psychological standpoint!)

Mark

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hificritic/vol5_no3/listening_to_storage.htm

[GirgleMirt]

I'm thinking it is how the hard drive is powered, and the resultant electrical noise propagation through the data cable. Someone posted just yesterday on the same thread and I include it below.

Mark


I have experimented with various usb bus and external supplies. I am using a 1 TB Samsung SSD initially mounted in an " external enclosure". The enclosure provided the option of USB Bus power, Wall wart external supply, and E-sata power from the BDP-2 using the USB only for signal.

http://www.amazon.com/MiniPro-eSATA-6Gbps-External-Enclosure/dp/B003XEZ33Y/ref=sr_1_34?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1426618414&sr=1-34&keywords=usb+3+ssd+enclosure

The results were intriguing, and clearly confirmed the importance of power supply quality to sound.

First, the external DC power supplies were consistently the worst. I had 2 different wall warts to try, with same specs. Both provided the most closed sound, with the least air and the most "edge" to the extreme highs. Same consistent results whether plugged in to conditioner, wall, same AC circuit or separate. I believe these are cheaply made power supplies, likely spitting out plenty of noise/hash.

Second, USB Bus power from the BDP. Better for sure. Interestingly, there were subtle differences between different usb cables, which was surprising for a non-streaming setup. Probably all about noise.

Third, power from e-sata cable, with signal thru USB. Punchier, much better bass. This was the best external setup, until...

Fourth, internalized SSD powered via sata. That's where I am today. Great all around sound, and no worries about extra power cables and usb cables hanging around and jiggling loose. Sonically and aesthetically the best setup for me.



Or... And this is just a possibility... But maybe... He's just imagining it. Occam's razor. Sure, it's possible that highly advanced alien life has traveled billions of light years to abduct us and stick their fingers up our asses, but odds are it's just some dumb redneck making shit up.

Anyway, that's why blind tests exist. But just going with some of the guy's descriptions, without having taken the time to read it seriously, sounds like bullshit to me. If there was really an issue, simple, turn your volume to max, do you hear some noise? No? There's no issue with the god damn power supply.


there were subtle differences between different usb cables
:mad: God damnit I wasted energy trying to read it seriously...

And wasting more time on the article:
"Fellow computer audio enthusiast (and Naim PR person) Stephen Harris and I launched into some preliminary listening tests, to establish under reasonably controlled conditions if audible, repeatable differences could really be heard. "
If I remember correctly, this is one of the stupid companies selling an amplifier sized iPod for 5000$... Or was it 25000$?


We readily confirmed that the final sound quality is influenced not only by the choice of network player, DAC, digital cables, or indeed many other long-recognized factors, but additionally — and quite markedly — by the manner in which we now store large quantities of our music at home.
Jesus christ... Not to sound harsh, but reading that article, it's painful, and I can't help but see those testers as the two guys from dumb & dumber. There's just a sort of magic which happens when you put two idiots in a room and let them do their thing. How exactly did they "readily confirm" all of those things? Let me guess, a sighted test? Because double blind tests don't work? Yeah of course, a search of 'blind' in the page resulted in no match. What was I thinking... Blind test.. Sheesh..


In our initial listening tests, I couldn't discern any tangible difference in sound between the two hard drives. Harris thought the Hitachi sounded very ethereal, almost out of phase, and rated it lowest; the Seagate was sharper with a more thumpy bass, slightly brighter with a slight tendency to sibilance. Both lacked much drive in presenting the Madonna track, and were certainly 'mushy' compared with the best sound quality we'd heard from the QNAP stable.

Drive three (a solid state type) gave a far from subtle shift in tone and soundstaging. I thought that here this Kingston SSD spread the stage wider, could really pull apart the multi-track layers, and certainly led in blackness too, sounding agreeably quieter than it had any right to. Yet there was also a dull flatness to its presentation, even a graying of timbre.

If the Kingston SSD stood apart from the disk drives for its mostly good yet quite alien character, drive four made itself known for entirely the wrong reasons. This Corsair drive (another SSD) conspicuously highlighted vocal sibilants, and had a hard, relentless quality that was impossible to miss. Strangely, it also robbed the music of pace; it was the least engaging on any emotional level thanks to an enveloping tunelessness that appeared to carve up a song like an MP3 rip.
Seriously... *censored*

It's amazing really. The world of audio... Amazing... 2015... The **** hardrive that holds the mp3, with an external dac, it affects the sound... "Yeah I know, I heard it with my own ears..." THE NUANCES... "no we didn't do a blind test..." Amazing... Just... Amazing... The ***** hard drive, it ***** "robbed the music of pace"... And the USB cable! The 0s and 1s.. Works for EVERYTHING ELSE, except for audiophiles and their music... **** digital USB cables need TUBES, or a friggin turntable... Maybe CRYO the HD. Yeah complain about the *** **** DIGITAL CABLE, because a ****** needle running through a crease in a plastic disk is more accurate. And they'd call ME deranged and lock me up after I'd strangle them both on the spot... :mad:

[randyrlee2]

GirgleMirt,

I have to say THANK YOU for the shits and giggles tonight. Seriously Dude, you made my evening. There is soooo much twaddle out there about stereo stuff that it becomes like voodoo. That's actually one of the reasons I ended up with Ascend RAAL Towers, because I could see the measurements and wasn't being sold mumbo-jumbo.

Anyway, thanx again. Just damn glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read your post.

randy

[markie]

+1 for the lol
From henceforth you shall be called Darth GiggleMirth

[bkdc]

I can just see it now. Pretty soon, some snake-oil salesmen will sell an 'audiophile hard drive' complete with high quality toroidal transformer power supply and high quality silver-conductor USB cable with gold plated foofoo with a standard seagate or hitachi or western digital drive within the casing for 10000% mark-up. On the outside will be some big overpriced audiophile label. LOL

To the audio novice, it is so so so easy to buy into the lies. A fool and his money are easily parted. There are plenty of ethical audio and psychoacoustics experts trying to save you from wasting your money. Listen to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

[Too_Blue]

I suspect that GiggleMirt's secret identity is Gordon Ramsey. :D

Love it!

[luisv]

Excellent and I too almost lost it when I was reading the post. Way too funny. I'm sure folks have heard of Andrew Robinson, so maybe this will help... maybe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AAs-4bnZpE

[markie]

I like Andrew Robinson, straight shooter. His personal experience that cables sound the same to him (except for db's?) is different from mine and many others. No biggie. The differences I heard between three different cables from the same company (Onda), playing exactly the same music portion, in the same room and the same very nice equipment (like Vandersteen speakers) were quite obvious. What I thought was, wow, they were different, but was one really much better than the other (despite their price differentials)? One cable might be preferred for a certain type of music or song but not for another. I would much rather buy a generic cheaper cable and equalize each song (such as one can do in iTunes) as I see fit. (Actually if I was serious about sound I wouldn't be using iTunes but something like JRiver hehe!) I'm assuming the differences in the cables amounted to mere frequency response differences, but maybe there was more to it, don't know.

I may post soon on something interesting I read recently regarding a way of experiencing one's music that goes beyond what is directly measurable, like frequency response. It could come in handy in evaluating one's equipment if one was doing some swapping and listening for differences.

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

Haha thanks guys! :D I had to edit the post due to complaints to Ascend though... Removed the 2 images which I thought made the post.. oh well!

Genuine question, for the average person, how much of an improvement would a thorough (professional?) ear cleaning do? My guess would be... Not much for most people? Hard to tell without ever have tried it, but I'd think the average dirt in the ear canal doesn't have a serious impact? I think for some people with issues it might be significant, others, not so much. Anyway, no idea... Ear canals aren't easy to 'clean', maybe I'll look up if there's some technique to do so... Could anything 'amass' on the ear drum and reduce hearing of your average individual?

Also, I also find it amazing how your own hearing seems to change from one day or another... Even with headphones, who's sound is much more 'stable' than speakers, it seems that their perceived sound changes over time; never exactly the same...

So that said, for audio, I think it's ridiculous that subjective testing is so widespread and the norm. Given the significant effect of the room, the positioning of the listener and the speakers, and human error, I find it silly that some people think they can perceive changes in say amp, cables, cd player, etc... I've seen people in shows, walk in an untreated demo room, listen to a system for a few minutes, and then comment on the amp. Or the cd player... It's borderline mental. And these people seem to have no notion about how your listening position affects sound. (they'll sit non-centered, in the rear of the room, etc.). It's the norm.

Btw, am I the only person in the world with 'Carbon fiber' Sierras? :D

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1088&d=1409747668

I thought about making a post about them, but never actually did so... I think I might be the only person i the world with C.F Sierras... Heh! (not really ;) )

[luisv]

Btw, am I the only person in the world with 'Carbon fiber' Sierras? :D
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1088&d=1409747668

I thought about making a post about them, but never actually did so... I think I might be the only person i the world... Heh! (not really ;) )

Nice indeed! I for one would be interested in reading what you did, so if you can create the post, I would appreciate it. I agree with you as I'm not sure how someone can listen to something in a demo room for a few moments and say, yup that sounds better / worse and that's what my system is missing. smh

[GirgleMirt]

Hehe well I used a similar technique as seen here (https://youtu.be/uTSccuADTUM?t=2m10s) with a DIY cabinet for the remains of a NrT upgrade. But it really does help incredibly though for the sound, CF being one of the strongest and lightest material around, it's a huge sound improvement vs non CF'd MDF cabinet!

Strength, Stiffness, and Comparisons With Other Materials
Carbon fiber is extremely strong. It is typical in engineering to measure the benefit of a material in terms of strength to weight ratio and stiffness to weight ratio, particularly in structural design, where added weight may translate into increased lifecycle costs or unsatisfactory performance. The stiffness of a material is measured by its modulus of elasticity. The modulus of carbon fiber is typically 20 msi (138 Gpa) and its ultimate tensile strength is typically 500 ksi (3.5 Gpa). High stiffness and strength carbon fiber materials are also available through specialized heat treatment processes with much higher values. Compare this with 2024-T3 Aluminum, which has a modulus of only 10 msi and ultimate tensile strength of 65 ksi, and 4130 Steel, which has a modulus of 30 msi and ultimate tensile strength of 125 ksi.

As an example, a plain-weave carbon fiber reinforced laminate has an elastic modulus of approximately 6 msi and a volumetric density of about 83 lbs/ft3. Thus the stiffness to weight for this material is 107 ft. By comparison, the density of aluminum is 169 lbs/ft3, which yields a stiffness to weight of 8.5 x 106 ft, and the density of 4130 steel is 489 lbs/ft3, which yields a stiffness to weight of 8.8 x 106 ft. Hence even a basic plain-weave carbon fiber panel has a stiffness to weight ratio 18% greater than aluminum and 14% greater than steel. When one considers the possibility of customized carbon fiber panel stiffness through strategic laminate placement, as well as the potentially massive increase in both strength and stiffness possible with lightweight core materials, is it obvious the impact advanced carbon fiber composites can make on a wide variety of applications
With that much science behind it, how can it not improve sound?! Speakers definitely fit in the "if it's got CF it's better" category, so I couldn't not consider not going with Carbon fiber. These took literally hours to make, and dozens of minutes of internet research to design. Not your typical Ascend speaker! Also completely hand made, which makes it better, using high performance tools, such as a table saw, a router, a sander, and human hands. Although no blood was involved, there was definitely some blood sweat and tears involved... Ok no tears either.. But some sweat though probably got in there... Helps with imaging I'm told! Can get hot here...

Oh and the glue... High tech glue. High quality... Wood... Glue. I went with the good stuff, I went totally crazy, I think it was $2.49 instead of normal $1.99 wood glue... Brand name, shit, don't remember the brand... Should have written it down, as brand names helps performance. The superior quality glue helps to keep the sound tight and cohesive. Which is great for C.F. And it glued so well, much better than normal glue, you can easily hear the differences between glues. Oh and the MDF wood was personally selected by me. 1st sheet of the pile. Always the best! Some people don't go with the best. I do. Only hand selected MDF wood. It's high tech too, they didn't have that in medieval times... High tech MDF, hand crafted, selected, glued, with high tech and quality glue, CF'd, hand made, with sweat, amazing.

Here are my original impressions upon hearing the Carbon Fiber Sierras for the first time:


Color me impressed. Compared to the already excellent Ascend Sierra, Carbon Fiber Sierra seemed to turn up the detail level, gut-punching PRAT, and harmonic density a notch. I never thought Ascend Sierra was not great in these departments before, but the Carbon Fiber Sierra definitely had more of these qualities. Increased detail resolution is most apparent in female vocals and upper midrange, where another light appeared to be shining on this region, making it easier to hear and see. A byproduct of this was improved imaging and placement in the soundstage. Each performer occupied solid, precise space on the stage, with life and sparkle projecting forward.

The next thing that hits you is the more impactful, solid basslines, which had more pitch definition and punch. Ascend Sierra has fabulous bass richness and definition already, but it just became tighter, with more solidity in growl and attack. The midrange had plenty of richness and girth, which made the whole sound balanced by holding together the more forward detailing and forceful bass into a coherent, colorful whole. When reading how the Carbon Fiber Sierra was designed with digital components in mind, I expected a softer, warmer type of sound to smooth over digititis, but almost the opposite has happened for some reason. This means that those audiophiles with digital front end that may be a bit long in the tooth, overly "hot" or "digital" sounding, may not necessarily find the Digital HP cord to be all that forgiving despite all its virtues described above. Those who own great, smooth digital gear but hope to extract a bit more air, sparkle, resolution, and punch, the Digital HP is the cord for the job.
(the above is totally not ripped off!!) Just amazing what adding Carbon Fiber to Sierra will do for you.. Really amazing...! Those nuances.. :D

Though I'm thinking of replacing it with a normal wood finish.. C.F. is supposed to come off really easily without leaving residue, so I think I'll eventually go this route.. I'm quite hesitant to lose all the CF benefits though... ;)

[Mag_Neato]

I like Andrew Robinson, straight shooter. His personal experience that cables sound the same to him (except for db's?) is different from mine and many others. No biggie. The differences I heard between three different cables from the same company (Onda), playing exactly the same music portion, in the same room and the same very nice equipment (like Vandersteen speakers) were quite obvious. What I thought was, wow, they were different, but was one really much better than the other (despite their price differentials)? One cable might be preferred for a certain type of music or song but not for another. I would much rather buy a generic cheaper cable and equalize each song (such as one can do in iTunes) as I see fit. (Actually if I was serious about sound I wouldn't be using iTunes but something like JRiver hehe!) I'm assuming the differences in the cables amounted to mere frequency response differences, but maybe there was more to it, don't know.

I may post soon on something interesting I read recently regarding a way of experiencing one's music that goes beyond what is directly measurable, like frequency response. It could come in handy in evaluating one's equipment if one was doing some swapping and listening for differences.

Mark

Ok, here's a thought from the dark side of my brain: You auditioned (3) different cables that had noticeably different sonic signatures, presumably at (3) different price points. BUT.......they are all from the same company. Consider this; If you could not differentiate the least expensive cable from the most expensive then how could the company justify the price difference? I believe that these companies selling multi-tiered products engineer these differences into the products so that there is an audible difference, justifying the price levels in the consumer's mind.

Ok, conspiracy theory rant over!

[luisv]

More food for thought... I could be wrong, but most if not all, speaker manufactures do not use esoteric speaker wire to connect drivers to the crossovers within the cabinet. The appropriate gauge would be used, but not uber expensive cabling; therefore, wouldn't that be a weak link? Same with amps, pre-amps, etc. The electronic components that are not surface mounted or wire jumpers between circuit boards and such are usually not wired with esoteric cables, so again, another weak link.

[luisv]

Hehe well I used a similar technique as seen here (https://youtu.be/uTSccuADTUM?t=2m10s) with a DIY cabinet for the remains of a NrT upgrade.

Interesting idea to reuse those components. Cool!




With that much science behind it, how can it not improve sound?! Speakers definitely fit in the "if it's got CF it's better" category, so I couldn't not consider not going with Carbon fiber. These took literally hours to make, and dozens of minutes of internet research to design. Not your typical Ascend speaker! Also completely hand made, which makes it better, using high performance tools, such as a table saw, a router, a sander, and human hands. Although no blood was involved, there was definitely some blood sweat and tears involved... Ok no tears either.. But some sweat though probably got in there... Helps with imaging I'm told! Can get hot here...

Oh and the glue... High tech glue. High quality... Wood... Glue. I went with the good stuff, I went totally crazy, I think it was $2.49 instead of normal $1.99 wood glue... Brand name, shit, don't remember the brand... Should have written it down, as brand names helps performance. The superior quality glue helps to keep the sound tight and cohesive. Which is great for C.F. And it glued so well, much better than normal glue, you can easily hear the differences between glues. Oh and the MDF wood was personally selected by me. 1st sheet of the pile. Always the best! Some people don't go with the best. I do. Only hand selected MDF wood. It's high tech too, they didn't have that in medieval times... High tech MDF, hand crafted, selected, glued, with high tech and quality glue, CF'd, hand made, with sweat, amazing.

Here are my original impressions upon hearing the Carbon Fiber Sierras for the first time:


(the above is totally not ripped off!!) Just amazing what adding Carbon Fiber to Sierra will do for you.. Really amazing...! Those nuances.. :D

Though I'm thinking of replacing it with a normal wood finish.. C.F. is supposed to come off really easily without leaving residue, so I think I'll eventually go this route.. I'm quite hesitant to lose all the CF benefits though... ;)

lmao :p :p

[markie]

Ok, here's a thought from the dark side of my brain: You auditioned (3) different cables that had noticeably different sonic signatures, presumably at (3) different price points. BUT.......they are all from the same company. Consider this; If you could not differentiate the least expensive cable from the most expensive then how could the company justify the price difference? I believe that these companies selling multi-tiered products engineer these differences into the products so that there is an audible difference, justifying the price levels in the consumer's mind.

Ok, conspiracy theory rant over!

Good one, although it is not a conspiracy theory but a conspiracy fact, and not necessarily a dark fact. Some engineering differences may simply be more costly to implement.

Here's what a cable maker said in a post a few days ago.


I can design a cable to sound however you want it to.

from

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=133829.msg1420039#msg1420039

This is from a thread entitled "I now believe in high end cabling!" started a few days ago by non other than Big Red Machine, a well known common sense audio enthusiast.

Mark

[luisv]

What happens once the signal flows from the external speaker cable, to the speaker cabinet binding post? Unless the internal speaker wires and crossover connections are similar to the external cabling design, aren't the design elements of the esoteric cable nullified? For example, drop a lawn mower engine into a Ferrari, the car is still a Ferrari, but the engine nullifies the rest of the performance of the car. Wouldn't the same hold true with cabling if it's designed different externally and internally within the cabinet?

[markie]

What happens once the signal flows from the external speaker cable, to the speaker cabinet binding post? Unless the internal speaker wires and crossover connections are similar to the external cabling design, aren't the design elements of the esoteric cable nullified? For example, drop a lawn mower engine into a Ferrari, the car is still a Ferrari, but the engine nullifies the rest of the performance of the car. Wouldn't the same hold true with cabling if it's designed different externally and internally within the cabinet?

Good point luisv. My thinking is that distortions introduced throughout the audio chain have their unique signatures, and the distortions are additive. So rather than a more major source of distortion nullifying lesser distortions, they just add up. The brain/mind becomes comfortable and familiar with a distortion 'baseline', and when, say, a new external cable replaces another one, old distortions are removed and new distortions introduced and the brain/mind can discern the difference from its accustomed baseline.

Some people have been so fond of a certain cable that they have asked that their custom speaker manufacturer to use the same cabling inside the speaker, even though it may cost a substantial penny. Of a certainty: different people have different cost/benefit priorities!

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

Wouldn't the same hold true with cabling if it's designed different externally and internally within the cabinet?
It's funny that I'm so often reminded of religion when thinking about audio topics lol In this case, it's the exact same thing as with religion... You're not supposed to ask or even think about these questions. As soon as you do, the whole concepts fall apart and belief becomes impossible, and you're forever excluded from these circles.

Like power cables and the internal wiring of the house... Magic stones sitting on top of amp... Magic feet below amps or cd players... High end digital cables, etc... You have one group who have never questioned anything about their beliefs, and another that did, and because of that, can no longer hold those beliefs... You just have to have faith dude, don't ask how/why it works, just accept that it does, and revel in your beliefs!

One thing I've noticed about charlatans, is that they always frown and are unhappy with an inquisitive mind. Be it again religion, supernatural, fraudulent products, when you have something which has sound theory behind, the advocate will be happy to share the why and how. But if you ask a question about the how/why and you get frowns & some BS answer, dodging, or "don't question!" type answer, you can be nearly certain that it's BS.

Take Ascend and it's products, they give nearly all the relevant information; specs, measurements, how/why components are designed/selected, what they do, how they work, etc. And if you ask a question, Dave is transparent & happy to answer, and willingly explains & share information. Ask a snake oil vendor relevant questions, and likely he'll shrivel up, won't give an answer and probably attack your credibility. And the saddest part is that if fanboys are present, they'll likely do the same.

Anyway... Rambling... But to believe, you must not question. Questioning is the 1st step towards becoming a heathen. So instead of asking questions about something, you should seriously ask yourself if you want to believe or not. ;)

[markie]

We all believe; it is a question of what we believe.

I believe that authority and dogma should be questioned, whether it concerns religion or science or what have you. Truth is not averse to honest examination.

A main problem with our species is that when we acquire a little bit of truth, get fairly expert in a thing or two, in our vanity we think we have it all figured out and proceed to rest comfortably in our little constrained domain. It may be a personal domain or a shared, social domain. Who among us is immune?

In my youth thought I had it all figured out in my religion. Then I questioned it, and the rest is history that I won't get into.

The Wright brothers developed a flying machine in the face of a skeptical academia and media. Yet in a twist of irony one of the brothers would later say, I think in the 1930s, that airplanes had exhausted their potential.

Einstein developed the Theory of Special Relativity and a time when academia had thought the universe was more or less entirely explained. Yet Einstein would later say, I think in the 1940s, that it was unlikely that we could harness the power of atomic fission.

In 1989 Pons and Fleischmann announced Cold Fusion, something that academia thought impossible at such low temperatures. They were shamed out of the county and came to live in Europe. To this very day academia and the main stream media won't touch the subject. Yet within our lifetimes it will become commonplace, a given.

So yeah, question dogma and authority. Much of what we hold up as infallible truth will fail the test of time.

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

Much of what we hold up as infallible truth will fail the test of time.
Will? And how exactly do you know that? And what do you mean exactly, like one day, apples will fall upwards? Otherwise I generally agree with you! The main difference though with the Wright Brothers, Einstein, etc., is that if you queried them on their theories & beliefs, they would not shy away to give you a genuine honest explanation, even if it would probably go over our head... And there lies the difference between someone honestly trying to improve or expand a field, rather than try to pawn off some supernatural bs for profits...

It's the same with DBTs, again going back with Ascend, they have measurements of all of their products. Therefore, you can see the difference. You know it's real, you know it exists. Cable charlatans don't usually want their customers to be educated customers, otherwise they wouldn't be their customers... So unlike ethical individuals/companies, their aim is misinformation, and they benefit from their customer's ignorance. They're not interested in the truth; they don't want people doing DBTs to evaluate their products, they just want dumb stupid ignorant customers to buy their shit.

To be fair to the last cable question, say the cable was broken by design and it's goal was to attenuate the highs... Which is dumb, but whatever... Adding the same cabling inside the speaker would attenuate them more, which might be good or bad... If the cable supposedly keep those magical elves and gremlins from affecting the signal, since there's no elves and gremlins affecting the signal, using it in the cabinet wouldn't make any difference.

Anyway, I think it's clear that paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a cables acting as a static EQ isn't the smartest idea. Same for supernatural unexplainable voodoo shielding. So when asking whether the connector/inside wiring makes a difference as it's not the 'magical' cable, it's a bit counterproductive, as pretty much conceding or assuming that the cable in itself is beneficial, and that's the real contention, whether it actually does anything better than a 2$ RCA cable or your normal copper cable. If it's EQing, then it's a broken cable and is worse. If it's voodoo shielding, it doesn't do anything better.

When buying/shopping for a cable, you should know exactly what it's supposed to do, and IMHO it should be demonstrated to do what it is supposed to do. That pretty much means it should be validated through DBTs. IMHO. It's funny that the audio community in general doesn't embrace the concept of DBTs. Well funny... Not really funny, more like borderline moronic, but you get what I mean ;) Talk about embracing ignorance and not caring about reality!

[luisv]

Good point luisv. My thinking is that distortions introduced throughout the audio chain have their unique signatures, and the distortions are additive. So rather than a more major source of distortion nullifying lesser distortions, they just add up. The brain/mind becomes comfortable and familiar with a distortion 'baseline', and when, say, a new external cable replaces another one, old distortions are removed and new distortions introduced and the brain/mind can discern the difference from its accustomed baseline.

Some people have been so fond of a certain cable that they have asked that their custom speaker manufacturer to use the same cabling inside the speaker, even though it may cost a substantial penny. Of a certainty: different people have different cost/benefit priorities!

Mark

I understand your logic, but wouldn't the same hold true for any wire based part in the signal path? Crossover parts as well as voice coils? I would assume that most speaker manufacturers would not allow nor approve any customization of their product and I would assume that most wouldn't even entertain a discussion about using my cables of choice within their designs instead of their own. Maybe a smaller shop would be open to it, but I bet that most would not be as that would be a support nightmare and varied sonic signatures from the speakers themselves as I like brand X and you might like brand Y cable.

But wait, never mind the signal path within our home audio systems, let's take a step back. What about within the record producers studio system? Are we hearing distortion from their associated equipment if they use different or inferior cables from our own system? They are the individuals that produced the sonic vision of the recording itself, so who would be correct? The mic cords, the amp cables, etc etc. Who's right? Their sound signature based on their cables or ours if we use a different product? Are we adding or subtracting from their vision as to how a recording should indeed sound like?

I dunno, but all of this voodoo certainly doesn't make any sense to me. All I can tell you is that based on a recommendation I originally purchased Kimber Cable 8TC speaker cable for my B&Ws and it set me back a ton of cash. Fast forward a few years, and yes, by this time everything was well broken-in, I started to want more from my system. Within the same room and using the same components, I decided to experiment with speaker placement and distance; however, the 8TC wasn't long enough for me to widen the distance that much more between the speakers so I ran out to my garage and grabbed some 14 gauge speaker wire that I had left over from my a car stereo system installation. I figured it would sound worse, but it would at least allow me to experiment without breaking the bank. At first I was in total disbelief. Then I placed the speakers back into the carpet indentations from the spikes of the Sound Anchors that are attached to my B&Ws. Guess what... drum roll please... no sonic difference between the 14 gauge cable and the urber expensive Kimber Cable. And no, it wasn't any special twisted air gaped cryogenic ultra virgin type copper with silver soldered tips... it was plain jane speaker cable with grime and dust from the bowels of my garage. I continued to listen, asked the wife to join me, did some cable swaps within the same speaker locations and we both came to the same conclusion... zip, zilch, nada, zero difference between cables. So lesson learned, I sold the 8TC, picked up some Canare cable from Bluejeans and used the rest to take the wife out shopping of which it made her very happy and I in turn... well... was also happy too. :cool:

[markie]

To luisv, on the whole record companies could probably do a better job by using better techniques and equipment. Afterall why else do some recordings sound like crap. Cable choices in the studio would represent only a relatively very small part in that, but it is still a part. It's additive.

I love it that you had the curiousity to actually experiment with your cables. You found no difference, which is great. More money to you. Other people with other systems find not so subtle differences, which I also accept.

To GM, I agree that using cables as a way to equalize isn't the best. Personally, changing cables would be the last thing I would try to tweak a system. Some people go through cable after cable, unsatisfied, until they stumble upon one that does the trick for some reason. I accept that, even without a DBT :)

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

Personally, changing cables would be the last thing I would try to tweak a system. Some people go through cable after cable, unsatisfied, until they stumble upon one that does the trick for some reason. I accept that, even without a DBT :)
What is it you accepting exactly?

I can 'accept' it in the same way as I could accept someone trying 50 different ways to step through a door; one with a pancake on his head, another time the other jumping backward on one leg, or with one hand holding a sausage and his tongue out of his mouth, until he finally found the best possible way for him to do so, which is with both fingers crossed, jumping on one leg, one hand on top of his head and the other up his butt. I mean, I can accept that this is the best possible way he found to step through a door, you know, the way which gives him the best luck & reduces the risk of aliens or spirits bothering him... But it doesn't really validate the existence of aliens or spirits...

The blind test would at least confirm that he's not wasting his time and money on cables which could in the end do absolutely nothing. And again, we're talking about a cable, one of the simplest and most nondescript feature of a system. I guess it's borderline insanity... Waste so much time, energy and money on something which which might make absolutely no real difference... At least if you bothered to do a blind test and make sure there actually was an audible difference, you would show that you actually cared about it, but when you refuse to do so, well... You're pretty much in denial... I don't know I guess it's common behavior for so many of us, I just can't understand how you can fail so badly at reasoning... "I don't care about the truth I just want to hold on to my beliefs even though they might be wrong." I think they just can't entertain the possibility that they might be wrong. I think that thought is just too scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a3zXJ7biqI

[markie]

GM, I would bet that Big Red Machine would welcome a double blind test if a couple of friends took the effort to help him out with it in his house and confirm the results one way or the other. If it were me I would, both out of personal curiousity and to "tell the tale" to others who might listen. But the reality is that such tests are a pain in butt to carry out. Properly done it should be carried out over several days, to avoid listener fatigue.

Would you refuse a double blind test? I assume no. I bet almost everyone reading this post would not refuse a double blind test in his own home, among friends who were looking forward to the experiment, a great excuse to get together to eat and drink and listen. What is puzzling to me is how you come to the belief that a person would find it too 'scary' to go through with it.

I could understand a person not wanting to come to grips with certain religious questions, because it could pose a sort of perceived existential threat, but discerning differences in audio equipment, especially when one is convinced of a positive result? :confused:

Mark

[GirgleMirt]

But the reality is that such tests are a pain in butt to carry out. Properly done it should be carried out over several days, to avoid listener fatigue.
Why several days?! The best DBTs are the ones where you can switch in quick succession, so you can quickly compare between both. (aural memory isn't good enough to differentiate minute differences even if there were...) But anyway, single blind test is rather easy, and if you want it to be over a longer period of time, even simpler, just have someone change the cables without telling you which cable is which, and just try to guess.


What is puzzling to me is how you come to the belief that a person would find it too 'scary' to go through with it.

I could understand a person not wanting to come to grips with certain religious questions, because it could pose a sort of perceived existential threat, but discerning differences in audio equipment, especially when one is convinced of a positive result? :confused:Mark
Well take the example of the guy who wasted hundreds if not thousands of dollars in cables before finding the 'right' one, only to have someone say that his 7th cable, 399.99$ Nuance flat wire, doesn't sound any better than a 1.99$ Radio-Shack RCA special... All this time and money wasted... Scary!

When the audiophile first reads about cables & DBTs, a common reply is: "Dude, I heard it, and I can easily tell the difference, I'm not crazy and I'm not imagining things!". Many just won't even entertain the possibility, why could that be other than fear? Well pride also, but again if someone is worried about his pride, then it comes back to fear; fear failing the test and looking like an idiot. Or worse, fear about realizing that he did waste his time, money and energy, and that he is indeed an idiot, or at least was tricked... Well guess what, you take the hit and learn from your experience. You don't voluntarily remain ignorant & just ignore reality because of your fear and pride... 2015... With all the information available at their fingertips, it's absolutely unforgivable to be aware of the cable scam and voluntarily remain ignorant.

It always amazes me how so many function... Some vid had some woman (http://www.break.com/video/what-happens-when-you-don-t-vaccinate-your-kids-2844410)'s 7 kids sick at home because they had caught Pertussis because the woman didn't have her kids vaccinated. Anti-vaccine. Her own words: "I'm not kicking myself up for it"... WHY THE HELL NOT YOU DUMB WOMAN??!?! Your kids are sick because of your idiocy, and you're not kicking yourself? What's wrong with you?! Kick yourself hard, learn from your mistake and don't ever let something like that happen again! Hate it when people mess up and are like: "whatever..." "Not my fault.." NO! NOT WHATEVER! That was your fault!!! Look at what you did, take responsibility, and learn not to repeat it!!! The whatever... Kills me...

I think it's all the same. A lack of reason isn't limited to one subject, usually the people who believe in astrology, religion, magical cables, luck, destiny, karma, luck, ghosts, aliens, conspiracy theories, etc., are usually the same. And it's always the people who don't ask questions, don't bother think... If you ask them why they believe, their response is usually something like: "Why not? Why couldn't there be?" Their opinions aren't the result of reasoning, it's the result of an absence of reasoning. It drives me nuts. I can't understand people like that...

It's not the beliefs themselves. It's the lack of reasoning & recurring process of never validating their lack of thought. Cables... Astrology... Oh it doesn't matter right? Homeopathy... Conspiracy theories... Anti-vaccine... Supernatural beings... Then people are surprised when like 30% of USA believe in ghosts or other nonsense...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/02/real-ghosts-americans-poll_n_2049485.html

A HuffPost/YouGov poll shows that 45 percent of Americans believe in ghosts, or that the spirits of dead people can come back in certain places and situations.
Jesus... Not even 30%, 45%...... :mad: That's how you get a society of ignoranimus... Just never teach people to think... So sad... It's depressing. Snake oil vendors, homeopaths, evangelists, astrologists, so many ripoff artists taking advantage of people. And they're just like sheep... Gobbling all up... Depressing... :(

So why bother? Be it cables, religion, whatever... "Oh it' doesn't matter! It's just X! X doesn't really matter!". I believe that it is important. Not for the beliefs themselves, but because it's a slippery slope, and it can shape your entire set of beliefs. Either you're on the side of reason, or you're on the side of... Lack of reason... The senseless, thoughtless, deluded, the willfully ignorant. I guess it's the choice, do you care about the truth, or not? If you don't care, then your opinion, thoughts (or absence of) and beliefs are totally irrelevant and useless. It's mental suicide. Self-sabotage. I don't know... Incomprehensible...

[markie]

GM, hmmm, how to reply to such a rant? Well first off I don't believe that the typical 'audiophile' has his self esteem so wrapped up in a particular cable choice that he can't face the possibility that he chose badly. Why can't the typical audiophile be more like luisv, who upon learning that he couldn't tell the difference in cables, sold off his expensive cables and came away happy?

Vaccines? I can think of no better explanation for the atrocious rates of autism, about 1 in 50 now. Incredible and totally unacceptable. Autism was virtually unknown in the early twentieth century. The lady's error was she had a little bit of knowledge and generalized. The concept of vaccination is great. It's just that certain vaccines, notably the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine, should be regarded as highly suspect. For instance did you know that in England, when they controlled for when MMR vaccine was delivered to children, that later injections correlated to a lower incidence of autism? Probably not. Did you know that, despite the mantra that "all vaccines are safe", the only study to directly check for this in baby primates, showed that the baby monkeys were adversely affected? Probably not.

Want a conspiracy theory? Check out Andrew Wakefield on Wiki, the English doctor who was barred from medicine for ringing the bell on the MMR vaccine. You would think he was totally evil. Then take the time to actually see the guy being interviewed on Youtube and you might come away with an entirely different impression.


Either you're on the side of reason, or you're on the side of... Lack of reason... The senseless, thoughtless, deluded, the willfully ignorant.

I suppose you think it is reasonable that a purely material universe somehow produces beings that are conscious, minded and self aware. I don't. So your idea of what is reasonable differs from mine. In my life I've learned a valuable lesson, and that is to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The fact that there are erroneous beliefs and fears in the human race is just a matter of course in our development. We're getting there, don't despair. Have faith.

Mark

[DougMac]

Want a conspiracy theory? Check out Andrew Wakefield on Wiki, the English doctor who was barred from medicine for ringing the bell on the MMR vaccine.Mark
No, he was barred from medicine for falsifying research. His research and the results he posted has been proven to be completely false. Exhaustive long range studies in Denmark, where there are detailed health records of every citizen, has shown there is absolutely no correlation between vaccinations and autism.

My wife is a nurse midwife and the director of a school of nursing ranked in the top 20 in the nation by US News and World Reports. She agrees that there is no connection. She has researched this using scientific and medical journals instead of listening to a bad comedian and his bimbo Playmate wife.

[Beave]

Thank you DougMac for correcting Mark's nonsense.

I was deliberately staying out of this thread until I read his post. Is Mark just trolling us? Can anybody be that misinformed? It's baffling.

[GirgleMirt]

Doug's post++

http://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/vaccine-myths-debunked/


GM, hmmm, how to reply to such a rant? Well first off I don't believe that the typical 'audiophile' has his self esteem so wrapped up in a particular cable choice that he can't face the possibility that he chose badly.
Well in a sense we're both wrong and both right, both of us are generalizing here... Some did do blind tests, and pretty much every one I've seen has failed. But I'm more talking about the proverbial cable believer, the one who posts and raves about the difference of this cable vs that cable that, without ever validating his beliefs. Throughout the years, I've noticed a clear pattern, and again it's similar to religion... Where those who are into cables and believe in their huge difference & benefits, aren't really interested or maybe just can't or don't want to entertain the possibility that they might be deluded... They'd rather form a small closed knit community of people with the same beliefs, à la head-fi & DBT-free zone, where they can just hear what they want to hear and reinforce their beliefs...



Vaccines? I can think of no better explanation for the atrocious rates of autism, about 1 in 50 now.
You're probably referring to the the 1 in 68 ASD numbers reported by the CDC... An explanation for this was simply that the detection mechanism in place today are more effective than they were 20 years ago, so we are identifying more cases in children today than we were before. And also what is considered ASD today and what was considered ASD 20 years ago isn't the same...

And besides, the "I can think of no better explanation for" is a type of logical fallacy; argument from ignorance/incredulity. Maybe you can't think of a better explanation, but that doesn't make your explanation correct... Besides, do you have a background in a medical field? If not, and you're not an expert, how is your opinion on autism even relevant? Have you done extensive research on the subject?


atrocious rates of autism, about 1 in 50 now. Incredible and totally unacceptable. Autism was virtually unknown in the early twentieth century.
lol That's exactly right! ;)


For instance did you know that in England, when they controlled for when MMR vaccine was delivered to children, that later injections correlated to a lower incidence of autism? Probably not.
So shouldn't autism be down then compared to 15 years ago?

http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html

Most anti-vaccination believers claim that the compound Thimerosal led to an increase in autism cases. The Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine is their usual target. However, Thimerosal was never used as a preservative in the Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine. No vaccine licensed since 1999 has contained Thimerosal as a preservative, except a few multi-dose container vaccines such as some (but not all) HIB and Influenza vaccines. Autism has not declined since 1999, thereby disproving this connection. However, this has not stopped anti-vaccination believers from claiming that it was the MMR vaccine itself that caused autism or that it was vaccines in general that caused autism. All of these ideas have been disproven in multiple scientific and legal examinations of the evidence. The primary scientific reason for the increase in autism diagnoses is due to more disorders being included in the Autism Spectrum and doctors getting better at diagnosing the characteristics of autism.

Anyway, we're getting off topic..



I suppose you think it is reasonable that a purely material universe somehow produces beings that are conscious, minded and self aware. I don't.
Well produces... It's not like I think the universe is a factory that builds conscious self-aware individuals from a production line... And 'purely material universe' as opposed to what exactly? Like magic? The supernatural? Ouuuh.. (spooky voice) Until there's evidence that there's something other than 'material', we're kinda wasting our breath talking about it... I guess that if you consider that anything is possible, then it's possible that a magic sandwich or a pink unicorn has created the universe & life on earth, but I just don't see any reason why anyone should believe it...

So yeah, so far, abiogenesis & evolution seems like the most plausible explanation to me. Given billions and billions of galaxies, each with billions and billions of stars and planets, add an incomprehensible amount of time, yeah, seems highly reasonable to me that what is ridiculously unlikely to happen will happen. Again, humans have created life from non-living matter, so we know it's possible. And we've observed evolution. No evidence of the supernatural as of yet... And James Randi is looking!

But to go back to beliefs.. Belief spawns from facts and evidence no? Observation, hypothesis, testing, experimenting, etc.? Magic doesn't explain anything, if magicmandunnit, then you have to explain how he did it and where he came from; who created magicman? Can't create something from nothing right? (ahem!! (http://www.amazon.ca/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/1451624468/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429055796&sr=8-1&keywords=lawrence+krauss)) So you have an even more impossible problem on your hands, since you know, we have an observable universe, but no magicman or even any evidence of magicman to study... And the original question; where does the universe come from, isn't answered at all... Religion answers nothing. Lighting? God... Rain? God... Sun? God... Life? God... Death? God... Stars? God... Fire? God.. It's not an explanation...


So your idea of what is reasonable differs from mine.
Well you say you don't think it's reasonable... As I said, it's not the belief that's important, it's the reasoning behind it. Can you explain then why you don't think it's reasonable? What is unreasonable about it? What would be the alternative? What is reasonable according to you, and most importantly, why?

[markie]

I'll make it short. No, Andrew Wakefield did not falsify evidence. Again, watch the man himself on YouTube and listen to his story instead of reading Wikipedia.

The study in Denmark. Perhaps, perhaps, there is something rotten in the state of Denmark. I say this because (as I assume you know) the guy (Thorsen) who led that study was indicted on many cases of fraud and money laundering, over a million dollars, involving the CDC. So frankly I don't trust him and would welcome another study, and one independent of the CDC. The CDC is way too cozy with the pharmaceutical / vaccine industry. For instance a director of the CDC left to become president of Merck's vaccine division.

Read carefully: I'm not being dogmatic that there is a connection between the MMR vaccine and autism, I'm saying it looks like that to me, and warrants further study, rather than receiving the reflex dismissal it does.

That's really all I want to say on the matter.

Regarding mind arising from a purely material universe. It isn't reasonable to me because there is no apparent reason for mere physical laws to arrange matter, through evolution, into living things, let alone self conscious beings like ourselves who are able to even ponder our origin and destiny.

It is more reasonable to me that the universe was minded to begin with, and minded beings like ourselves are manifestations of that. If material energy can be accepted to be simply 'there' at the 'beginning', why not mind as well?

And if mind is there at the beginning, it would follow that meaning and purpose are intrinsic in the universe as well. Material law has nothing to say for those qualities. And when matter and mind co-mingle very interesting things happen, like evolution with 'direction', leading to beings like ourselves. Ascend indeed.

That's all I will say on the subject, this is after all a forum on speakers and such! Cheers.

Mark

[DougMac]

Thank you DougMac for correcting Mark's nonsense.

I was deliberately staying out of this thread until I read his post. Is Mark just trolling us? Can anybody be that misinformed? It's baffling.
This is a product site about some fine speakers. I'm sure everyone that posts here are fans. I was surprised when I opened this thread to see it had gotten so far afield. I was going to stay out as well, but when I saw such blatant information on a subject of which I'm familiar and that is of practical interest to my wife, I had to respond. I immediately had second thoughts, not because of any doubts regarding the information in my post, but based on my furthering a conversation that frankly doesn't belong here.

I suggest Curtis or Dave clean up this thread, removing any posts not related to audio. Actually, I think the forum would be better off without this and other navel gazing threads. If you want to discuss philosophy and misinformation, go to Cheers, order a beer and sit down with Cliff.

[curtis]

I haven't had to delete or modify a thread in a LONG time....a testament to the type of people we have in the forum.

So long in fact, I can't remember my moderator login and password.

Let's consider this a dead thread.

[davef]

This is a product site about some fine speakers. I'm sure everyone that posts here are fans. I was surprised when I opened this thread to see it had gotten so far afield. I was going to stay out as well, but when I saw such blatant information on a subject of which I'm familiar and that is of practical interest to my wife, I had to respond. I immediately had second thoughts, not because of any doubts regarding the information in my post, but based on my furthering a conversation that frankly doesn't belong here.

I suggest Curtis or Dave clean up this thread, removing any posts not related to audio. Actually, I think the forum would be better off without this and other navel gazing threads. If you want to discuss philosophy and misinformation, go to Cheers, order a beer and sit down with Cliff.

Thanks Doug.

This thread has definitely run its course and is not conducive to our products or audio in general. This might be the first thread that I have closed in nearly a decade.