Can't make a decision to save my life........

[RRT-NPS]

So I decided to buy myself a new system for Christmas. I originally told myself to not go all nuts and get a great system and spend as little as possible.

I was originally going to purchase the Peachtree Decco65 (999) and Zu Audio Omen DW (999). As a previous Sierra-1 owner I thought about going that way again but didn't want to have to purchase stands (Why in the hell are good stands so expensive).

After hearing things about the Omens being shouty, forward, bright, etc, I thought just get the Sierras. Since the Sierras aren't as efficient I thought I should go with the Peachtree Nova125 (1499). Then I find out that not only is there now a Sierra Tower but a new Sierra on the horizon, and of course I had to have that.

I finally decided to get the Sierra-2 but if they are close to the price of the tower, get the tower. I am sure Sierra-2 plus stands will be as much if not more than the towers, so maybe I should get the towers. Also, Peachtree has a sale on their separates the NovaPre and Nova220 combo is only (1698). Of course I think I should get the double the power if I can for just a $199 difference.

At this point, my brain hurts and I have no idea what I will be buying (Sierra-2 or Sierra Tower)..... I think I would put money towards the speaker and not towards a stand, if that makes any sense. I figure I would ask you all WWYD..... What Would You Do.

I tend to listen jazz (Cassandra Wilson, Gretchen Parlato, Lizz Wright), Downtempo (Zero 7) and electronica (Disclosure, 4hero, etc)

Thanks in advance. for your opinions.

[Mag_Neato]

Decisions, decisions......such a dilemma!

True, stands are necessary for the Sierra-1/NrT/2. While the Sierra-2 may approach the standard Tower in price, It will have the advantage of the RAAL ribbon tweeter which should give it the edge in the high frequencies. The new mid-woofer will bring the -2 mids close to those of the Tower. The Tower will have the edge in the mids due to the dedicated mid driver, as well as the bottom end due to its dual woofers. If you are crossing the speakers to a sub then the bass advantage of the Towers is all but nullified.

So I guess it comes down to those highs that only the RAAL ribbon can achieve.

[RRT-NPS]

Yeah I would get a ribbon with the Sierra-2, I am not sure if I would spring for the ribbon upgrade on the towers, even though I would want to.

[RicardoJoa]

Sierra 2 with a pair of 12 rythmik and a HK. I cant imaging the sierra costing close to the towers. With the rythmik you will have deeper bass and the can work as stands.

[RRT-NPS]

Sierra 2 with a pair of 12 rythmik and a HK. I cant imaging the sierra costing close to the towers. With the rythmik you will have deeper bass and the can work as stands.

HK? No subs wanted or needed and I am sure a sub costs more than a stand.

[petmotel]

So I decided to buy myself a new system for Christmas. I originally told myself to not go all nuts and get a great system and spend as little as possible.

I was originally going to purchase the Peachtree Decco65 (999) and Zu Audio Omen DW (999). As a previous Sierra-1 owner I thought about going that way again but didn't want to have to purchase stands (Why in the hell are good stands so expensive).

After hearing things about the Omens being shouty, forward, bright, etc, I thought just get the Sierras. Since the Sierras aren't as efficient I thought I should go with the Peachtree Nova125 (1499). Then I find out that not only is there now a Sierra Tower but a new Sierra on the horizon, and of course I had to have that.

I finally decided to get the Sierra-2 but if they are close to the price of the tower, get the tower. I am sure Sierra-2 plus stands will be as much if not more than the towers, so maybe I should get the towers. Also, Peachtree has a sale on their separates the NovaPre and Nova220 combo is only (1698). Of course I think I should get the double the power if I can for just a $199 difference.

At this point, my brain hurts and I have no idea what I will be buying (Sierra-2 or Sierra Tower)..... I think I would put money towards the speaker and not towards a stand, if that makes any sense. I figure I would ask you all WWYD..... What Would You Do.

I tend to listen jazz (Cassandra Wilson, Gretchen Parlato, Lizz Wright), Downtempo (Zero 7) and electronica (Disclosure, 4hero, etc)

Thanks in advance. for your opinions.

Speakers make more of a difference than any other component in the signal chain, the next biggest factor is the room.

Considering the genre of music you listen to most (which is generally recorded quite well) I would suggest to go all out for the Towers w/RAAL tweeters and power them with an inexpensive receiver. You can always upgrade the electronics at a later date. I would suggest improving room acoustics might be a better use of that money prior to electronics upgrades.

The Towers are better top to bottom, most notably in the midrange due to the dedicated, sealed midrange driver. Dynamics are also considerably better. I will promise you that you would have no regrets going that route.

Just my humble opinion.

Jay

[RRT-NPS]

Speakers make more of a difference than any other component in the signal chain, the next biggest factor is the room.

Considering the genre of music you listen to most (which is generally recorded quite well) I would suggest to go all out for the Towers w/RAAL tweeters and power them with an inexpensive receiver. You can always upgrade the electronics at a later date. I would suggest improving room acoustics might be a better use of that money prior to electronics upgrades.

The Towers are better top to bottom, most notably in the midrange due to the dedicated, sealed midrange driver. Dynamics are also considerably better. I will promise you that you would have no regrets going that route.

Just my humble opinion.

Jay

I've decided on the towers. Now to pic a finish. I am thinking Satin Black Bamboo. Cant decide if I want to spend the extra for the RAAL tweeter. $700 is a lot for tweeters....... just sayin'

[petmotel]

I've decided on the towers. Now to pic a finish. I am thinking Satin Black Bamboo. Cant decide if I want to spend the extra for the RAAL tweeter. $700 is a lot for tweeters....... just sayin'

You'll be listening to these for at least ten years, that's a mere 6 bucks a month. Seriously, for your intended usage, which is similar to my own, I think the RAALs make sense. For Pop/Rock music maybe not.

Interestingly, my wife recently bought a movie soundtrack CD (to the movie "Perfect Pitch"), I was very surprised at how very well recorded it was. On the other hand, she also bought the new Katie Perry CD "Prism" which was terrible. So much dynamic compression it just squeezed the life out of the recording. I think that sound engineer needs to find a different profession. And yet it is fairly typical of current pop recordings.

Just pointing out if you are listening to music that has really good detail, excellent dynamic range, and serious transients, you will get the best it has to offer with the RAALs. You've never heard cymbals/high hats, for instance, sound like they do when a RAAL ribbon reproduces them (except for live of course). In a word, sublime!

Jay

[FirstReflect]

I will chime in simply to say, from my own experience, do whatever it takes to get yourself some RAAL ribbon tweeters. I have 3 custom-built Sierra Horizon speakers, all with the RAAL 70-20XR ribbons. I also have a pair of custom built Sierra-1 cabinets with the RAAL 70-20XR tweeter and the same phase plug mid-range driver as the Towers/Horizons in them as Front Wide speakers.

I must say, I have zero regrets about those purchases, and I am SO GLAD that I opted for those highly customized Front Wide Sierra-1s. You see, I also have Sierra-1 NrT Surrounds, Surround Backs & Front Heights. Naturally, I have tried putting the Sierra-1 NrT in the Front Wide positions, just to see how they would compare.

Now, let me be clear: the Sierra-1 NrT are excellent sounding speakers! But with them in place of my custom Wides, I can spot the transition from them to the Front Mains if I'm listening for it. With the custom RAAL 70-20XR + Tower midrange Wides, the sound field is absolutely seamless.

I hate the whole "veils were lifted" line that's so often used in speaker reviews. But it's honestly rather apt in this instance. There's just an extra bit of realism and clarity with the RAAL ribbons vs. the Sierra-1 NrT. Again, to be clear, the Sierra-1 NrT are really, really close. It's a big time case of diminishing returns. But there ARE returns for the extra money paid.

The best way I can put it is that, after some careful listening time, I have decided that I will eventually upgrade all of my Sierra-1 NrT speakers to Sierra-2. Now, I must stress, this is not because I am at all displeased or disappointed with the Sierra-1 NrT speakers. Rather, it is a case where I really feel as though I am THIS CLOSE to absolute audio perfection, and I simply want to "push it over the edge", and take it as far as I can possibly go. The transition from the front soundstage to the Surround and Surround Back speakers is just a hair away from flawless.

I hope that Dave will not feel as though I am bad mouthing the Sierra-1 NrT in any way, because that is not at all what I am trying to convey. Dave himself is saying that the Sierra-2 are the best 2-way bookshelf speakers he has ever heard at any price point. And that would include Ascend's own Sierra-1 and Sierra-1 NrT. Obviously, I've not yet heard the Sierra-2. But since I HAVE heard the Sierra Horizon RAAL and my custom Sierra-1 cabinets with the RAAL 70-20XR + Tower midrange in them, I trust what Dave is sayings about the Sierra-2 completely.

This is a case of refinement, not revolution. You wouldn't listen to my Sierra-1 NrT in place of my custom RAAL Wides and say, "oh, those are worlds apart". But if you're at all like me, you WILL say that there IS a difference, and that you really do get something just that little bit closer to perfection for the extra money spent.

So, all of that in mind, if you cannot afford the Sierra Towers RAAL, I'd urge you to strongly consider the Sierra-2. When you say you want "perfection", to my mind, with all my years of critical listening, and my new speakers VERY fresh in my mind, that means getting a RAAL ribbon tweeter - simple as that :)

[Jasonindenver]

I would buy the best speaker I could afford with the RAAL right away. The RAAL is worth every penny for the type of music you listen to.

The new Sierra 2 is an exciting option because you would have a fantastic speaker right away. You could later add a sub as funds allow and reach the sound quality of the towers.

As far as stands, I have used everything from bookcases to plant stands before shelling out for a set of $400 stands for some B&W 602s. Honestly, I could not tell the difference from the plant stands (cut down to the correct level and weighted of course) from a set of dedicated speaker stands.

I have the towers with the RAALs and love them.

[petmotel]

I would buy the best speaker I could afford with the RAAL right away. The RAAL is worth every penny for the type of music you listen to.

The new Sierra 2 is an exciting option because you would have a fantastic speaker right away. You could later add a sub as funds allow and reach the sound quality of the towers.

As far as stands, I have used everything from bookcases to plant stands before shelling out for a set of $400 stands for some B&W 602s. Honestly, I could not tell the difference from the plant stands (cut down to the correct level and weighted of course) from a set of dedicated speaker stands.

I have the towers with the RAALs and love them.

Dave has stated that the new Sierra-2s are the best 2-way speakers he's heard, but he has also stated that the mids perform somewhere between the Sierra-1s and the Towers. It's important to remember that the dedicated, sealed mid, and dedicated bass drivers (2 per Tower) still outperform the two way designs, both in detail, and dynamics.

The Sierra-2 is undoubtedly an exciting new design for Ascend, but realistically, as a 2-way design, it's still not going to be able to match the Tower/Horizon for sound quality. Since a sub is usually crossed over at about 60 to 80 Hz, the bass region of the Towers will also exceed the bookshelves down to the point where the sub is crossed.

If one were to compare the standard Tower with the new Sierra-2, the only area it would be equal to (or in all likelihood better) would be above the crossover point of the tweeter (somewhere close to 3kHz). I dare not even try to speculate which would better appeal to a listener, it could well be a matter of individual taste. Since the Sierra-2 is currently not available to the public, performance deltas are purely speculation.

The Tower would still be my choice, particularly if a sub was not to be implemented in the system. Add in the RAALs, it's a no brainer IMHO (budget, and placement considerations allowing of course).

Jay

[FirstReflect]

Jay, that's a fair assessment and a good point. One thing is for sure: we all agree that if the OP can afford the Sierra Towers RAAL, that is the best possible choice! It just also happens to be the most expensive ;)

Choosing between the Sierra-2 and the standard Sierra Towers is a tricky thing, indeed. Now that we know the Sierra-2 can be had for a mere $1448, it creates an even more interesting dilemma when price is a factor. It also makes the Sierra Towers RAAL a very substantial step up in price.

There's often a lot of talk and emphasis on bass extension. I understand the intuitive appeal, but I must stress the importance of recognizing that the bass you end up hearing is not just what comes out of the speakers; it is the combination of what comes out of the speakers plus the room's acoustics.

I now have the perfect example in my own setup:

If I were to take my custom "skinny" Sierra Horizon RAAL Centre outside, and listen to some bass sweeps, it would play nice and linearly right down to 40-45Hz or so. All on its own, that's what it can output. But in my actual theatre room, I must position the speaker where it makes sense to put the Centre channel, which is more or less centered in the room width-wise, and directly below my television. I've then angled it upwards a bit so that it is aiming at my face when I'm seated.

So, intuitively, we might think we'd want to set a 40 or 50Hz crossover, since that is where the speaker itself naturally starts to roll off. But a funny thing happens if I play a bass sweep through my Centre speaker: the sweep is nice and linear down to 80Hz, then it quickly rolls off until it's basically silent at 70Hz, then it gets louder again until it's pretty much back to linear from about 60Hz down to 40Hz, and then it rolls off again.

So, there's simply some sound wave cancellation going on, centered at about 70Hz. The combination of the room's dimensions, the exact placement of the speaker within the room, and the placement if my seat relative to the speaker, they all combine to produce a bass response that is not even and linear, even though the speaker itself is outputting linear, accurate sound.

To combat this, I have a pair of SVSound PC13-Ultra subs positioned at the mid-points of both side walls. That placement, combined with a bit of fine tuning EQ courtesy of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + SubEQ HT gives me incredibly linear, uniform bass across my full seating area (which is just a futon at the moment that can fit maybe 3 people at most ;) ).

If I just run the Audyssey auto-setup program, my Receiver sets the Centre speaker crossover to 40Hz. If I leave it there and try playing a bass sweep through the Centre speaker, even with my subwoofers now active, I still get that bass suck out between 80 and 60Hz. So, I manually set the crossover for my Centre speaker to 80Hz, and the results are darn near magical! You would never believe, just looking at my theatre and seeing how physically close both subwoofers are to the seat, that the bass would sound seamless and non-localizable. But I promise you, it really, truly does. Not so if just the Centre speaker alone is playing. Not so if I only use one subwoofer. It is the combination of speaker, dual subwoofers, and room acoustics all working together to create a truly convincing illusion that the Centre channel is just effortlessly playing down to below 20Hz, and somehow sounds uniform at all positions on my futon.

My Front Left & Right main speakers do not produce the same, obvious suck out. But, being that they are physically closer to the corners of my room, they do produce a slightly uneven low end, with a fair bit of a hump down around 50Hz. I could just use an EQ to tame that hump, but I chose to manually set my crossover to 60Hz for those channels. And my reason is simple - the unevenness of the low end from my Front Main speakers is not uniform across the entire seating area. The prime seat in the middle gets a 50Hz hump. But the two outer seating positions get less of a single hump, and more of a bit of up and down fluctuation below 60Hz. My pair of subwoofers, on the other hand, produce unbelievably uniform bass across the full seating area. So, once again, by manually selecting a 60Hz crossover for the Front Mains (as opposed to the 40Hz chosen by my auto-setup program), I get the illusion that my Front Main speakers just effortlessly play down to below 20Hz, and do so very uniformly at any seating location on my futon.

My point in all of this is that extended deep bass response from the speakers themselves is not necessarily very useful. I completely understand the intuitive desire for it, but in a real room, the results might not be what you expect or hope for. In fact, they very likely will not be. When it comes to deep bass, you must always account for the room's acoustics, and what effect they will have on the bass you actually end up hearing across your entire seating area. You cannot place your speakers in the ideal locations for deep bass. You have to place your speakers in the proper locations for good imaging and soundstage, hopefully following the Dolby, DTS, THX & Audyssey speaker placement guidelines as closely as possible.

So, since we now know the Sierra-2 are so inexpensive (relatively speaking, of course. They really ought to be priced at $2700/pair wholesale. That would be the industry norm), we have to consider the fact that you could purchase a pair of Sierra-2 plus a pair of $550 ea. subwoofers, and still pay the same or less as a pair of Sierra Towers RAAL on their own. The pair of $550 subwoofers - assuming you can place them ideally - can provide deeper, more uniform, more linear bass than the Sierra Towers RAAL. With the shockingly good results I've managed to achieve in my setup, that is an extremely compelling option, IMO!

Now, Jay, you're absolutely correct that the Towers still might hold an edge in midrange performance. And, of course, as much as we talk about bass and treble, nothing is more important than the midrange! But here's the conundrum:

Sierra-2 plus a pair of $550-ish ea. subwoofers can provide better bass than the Towers, midrange that's maybe not quite as good as the Towers, but better than the Sierra-1s (which are no slouch in the midrange, let's not forget!), and better treble than the NrT tweeter.

Of course, the standard towers are only $500 more per pair than the Sierra-2. So if that's your price comparison, then the dual subwoofer configuration goes out the window. That said, while they don't dig right down to 20Hz, a pair of HSU STF-2 subs could be had for only about $700, and those could still play lower, and more uniformly than the Towers on their own.

The Towers still have the out and out advantage in sheer dynamic and peak loudness capabilities. But Dave has said the Sierra-2 are cleanly hitting 108dB from 10-12 feet away, so sheer loudness shouldn't be a problem for them unless you're very far away.

Obviously, Sierra Towers RAAL AND dual subwoofers take the cake! But I have to say, if it were my money, I think I'd opt for Sierra-2 plus a pair of good subwoofers - even just the HSU STF-2s - over the Sierra Towers on their own. Better real world bass, plus that RAAL ribbon tweeter. Could the Tower midrange be even better? Sure. But you've heard the Sierra-1's midrange. That's certainly still very good. And the Sierra-2, according to Dave, are even better than that! So outside of a direct A-B comparison, I seriously doubt you'd hear the Sierra-2's midrange and think that anything is lacking ;)

My (several) two cents, anyhow :)

[petmotel]

Rob, as usual you make compelling discussion, and some good points. Everyone's situation is unique, and therefore needs are also unique.

Consider all of the variables, from budget, to room size/acoustics, to equipment acceptance by the significant other, and system usage. Big subs for instance are not accepted by many style conscientious wives. Some will not be willing to forego the floor space required of the Towers, opting instead to place bookshelf speakers on a table, or entertainment cabinet. As I've said, I believe it may well boil down to personal taste, or factors unrelated to ultimate performance. Not all people are as uncompromising in regards to system performance as you are (ya think???LOL).

[RRT-NPS]

You guys have given me a lot to think about. I would LOVE to have a speaker with a ribbon tweeter, so it will either be the Sierra-2 or the Towers with the RAAL. That's 1498 (plus stands) vs 2598. If I stick to my plans and make this the last set of speakers I EVER buy, I know I should go with the RAAL Tower.

I will keep you posted.

[markie]

Rob, as usual you make compelling discussion, and some good points.
That's for sure! Excellent points Rob, I learn much from your contributions!
Mark

[Erik]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it but if you go with a bookshelf subwoofer combo, for music, a sealed sub might be better than a ported one because people say it's less boomy. I'm sure, like everything else in this hobby, there is a healthy debate on the subject. In the OP, I just saw mention of music and not home theater.

I have a Sierra-1 NRT + HSU combo for music only. Hope to upgrade to the Sierra-2 in the very near future. I actually got a pair of Harbeth P3SER to upgrade the midrange from the Sierra NRT. When I got them home, they sounded small compared to the Sierra NRT and the difference in the mid range was not enough to justify the large premium. I returned them the next day. Taught me a good lesson and made me appreciate how good the Sierra's really are.

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, guys :)

I do hope no one takes what I wrote the wrong way. If anyone were to opt for the standard Towers over the Sierra-2 plus a pair of subwoofers combo, I certainly wouldn't hold that decision against them! Maybe you just like the looks better, or, as has been suggested, they'd be easier to place in the room, or dual subs are just flat out a no-go; there are plenty of good reasons why the standard Towers, all on their own, might make more sense and be the better choice for someone.

I just jumped in, though, because I so often see deeper bass extension brought up as a big plus for going with towers. That's just in general. From my end, I've known all the theory, and talked at length about room acoustics and dual subs and all that; but I have to say, I was (and still am) absolutely shocked at the real world results that I've experienced now in my theatre. It's one thing to read and talk about the theory of it all. It's quite another to actually put it into practice!

Truthfully, I wrote so much because I still can't get over how, if I'm sitting to one side of my futon, I have a subwoofer right there beside me. Like, it's maybe a foot and a half away. I can literally reach out my arm and touch it. And yet I truly cannot localize that subwoofer by ear, and the blend between the bass coming from the subwoofers and ANY of my 11 speakers is just seamless and perfect. It's mind-blowing, and I just can't get over it :D And yet, if I turn off one of my two subwoofers, suddenly I can easily localize the one remaining sub, and the bass response from seat to seat goes all over the place - completely non-uniform.

So the point about not always being able to ideally position even one subwoofer, let alone a pair of subs, that is most definitely a valid concern! I totally get that most people cant get away with putting two gigantic cylinder subs in their home theatre ;) But it's much more about having two ideally placed subs than it is about the size of each subwoofer. There are some truly small, compact, and very good-looking subwoofers out there!

To Erik's point: it's not quite as cut and dry as sealed vs. ported. I would easily put my PC13-Ultra subs (in ported mode), or any of the Rythmik ported subs up against many of the sealed subwoofers out there and be very confident that those particular ported subs would outperform much of the sealed competition in every single metric possible.

But it has been shown that if you take the exact same driver and amp, and the only change you make is to put them in a ported box, and then compare them to their performance in a sealed box, that, generally speaking, the sealed configuration will have less group delay, faster transient response, and typically a 12dB/octave roll off starting up around 40-50Hz or so; whereas, the ported configuration will have a higher maximum SPL output level, play linearly down to a lower frequency, but then have a rather steep 24dB/octave roll off, plus more group delay and slower transient response. If you push the sealed configuration really hard in order to try and equal the same loudness of output, you tend to get higher distortion, just dB for dB vs. the ported configuration, too.

So, yes, generally there are trade-offs in ported vs. sealed subs. But a really great sub is a really great sub. There are sealed subs, like the JL Audio offerings for example, that can play lower, louder, and with less distortion than a lot of ported subs. And there are ported subs that can play with faster transient response and less group delay than a lot of sealed subs. So it does end up being a matter of quality and design in the end.

Putting it all together, you could keep the price very reasonable, maybe not dig right down to 20Hz, but have some VERY small subs with something like the SVSound SB-1000. That sub is a tiny 13" cube, weighs less than 30lbs each, and you can get a pair of them (shipping included) for $950! Piano black ups the price to $1100 for a pair, but that's still in line with what I talked about before. And those subs are so small, they can be placed just about anywhere, and the "decorating committee" should have far less of a problem with them ;)

Anyways, my point was/is simply that, now that I've really heard it in action, I can't stop raving about the darn near magical results of having a pair of ideally placed subwoofers handling the bass. The Towers are awesome, don't get me wrong. But you have to place them where Front Main speakers go, and they do not always play the same bass at the same time; sometimes the bass for each speaker channel is independent. So I just want folks to be aware is all :)

A pair of Sierra-2 plus a pair of tiny 13" cube subs - perhaps all in a gorgeous piano gloss black finish? Plenty of folks might actually find that combo easier to place in their room than a pair of towers. And if they also cost less AND actually produce better bass? Well that's worth consideration, at least. I think so, anyway :)

I just want everyone to have a pair of great subwoofers, and hear the results for themselves! Heck, that makes me a humanitarian, doesn't it? haha. We all deserve such glorious bass in our lives.

:D

[RRT-NPS]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it but if you go with a bookshelf subwoofer combo, for music, a sealed sub might be better than a ported one because people say it's less boomy. I'm sure, like everything else in this hobby, there is a healthy debate on the subject. In the OP, I just saw mention of music and not home theater.

I have a Sierra-1 NRT + HSU combo for music only. Hope to upgrade to the Sierra-2 in the very near future. I actually got a pair of Harbeth P3SER to upgrade the midrange from the Sierra NRT. When I got them home, they sounded small compared to the Sierra NRT and the difference in the mid range was not enough to justify the large premium. I returned them the next day. Taught me a good lesson and made me appreciate how good the Sierra's really are.

I am not a fan of subwoofers. I find the bass to be artificial sounding and exagerated. It's boomy, which is probably due to the room more so than the sub. Also, it is another cable to have to deal with and hide.

[Erik]

That is true, setting up the sub can be room dependent. My sub is about 3ft from the speakers and I sit about 9ft away and the sound is good, not boomy at all. But if I go into my pantry on the other side of the room about 30ft from the sub the sound is boomy. It's real strange.

I also had to use the SPL meter with an iPhone to get the sub to play at the same SPL as the speakers b/c I have a 2 channel amp not a receiver that can do this automatically. Getting the sound right is definitely not plug and play.

[natetg57]

I am not a fan of subwoofers. I find the bass to be artificial sounding and exagerated. It's boomy, which is probably due to the room more so than the sub. Also, it is another cable to have to deal with and hide.

I've owned boomy subwoofers but I've never heard a Rythmik, for example, described as boomy. If the bass is exaggerated than it's turned up too high. I have a 15" sealed Rythmik and I think it sounds great and blends seamlessly. If anything, IMO, the bass is so clean and tight that it's unimpressive for casual listeners that are expecting to be shaken by everything. You might enjoy this review http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0709/rythmik_f12se.htm
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with going without a sub either if you are not worried about hearing and feeling that lowest octave.

[RRT-NPS]

I've owned Sierra-1s before and they played plenty deep for me.

[FirstReflect]

I am not a fan of subwoofers. I find the bass to be artificial sounding and exagerated. It's boomy, which is probably due to the room more so than the sub. Also, it is another cable to have to deal with and hide.

Yes, indeed. If that is how you feel about subwoofers, then you have, unfortunately, simply not had the experience of hearing a pair (or quad) subwoofers ideally positioned and set up properly in a system. I really wish you could hear how it sounds in my theatre. The very last thing the bass sounds like in my room is artificial, exaggerated, or boomy. It is smooth, clean, tight, and just effortlessly extended. But, as I've droned on about above, it's not even just the extension and quality. It's the fact that if I were to play the bass through just my (very capable) custom Sierra Horizon RAAL Front speakers, the speakers themselves can play nice and linearly and accurately down to 40Hz, but that is not how they end up sounding in the room. In the prime seat, the Front Mains have a pretty big 50Hz hump, while the Centre has a huge 70Hz dip. And sitting to either side, the Front Mains have fluctuating bass below 60Hz, and the Centre still has a suck out centered at 70Hz.

So, in my case, playing bass through my speakers is what sounds uneven, and in the case of my Front Main speakers while seated in the prime seat, boomy at 50Hz. Meanwhile, letting my pair of ideally placed subwoofers take over at crossover frequencies above where the speakers start to have uneven bass issues that are due to room acoustics effects related to where they are positioned in the room relative to the seats, that results in smooth, linear, accurate bass all the way down to below 20Hz, and it sounds uniform and even at all 3 seating positions.

Subwoofers definitely CAN sound boomy and artificial. You're not wrong. And I'm sure we've all experienced that at some point! I certainly have. But it's too broad to say you just don't like subwoofers. That's like saying you don't like dogs because you've only met two, and one tried to hump your leg, and the other one bit you :p I mean, if those had been your only experiences with dogs, it would make perfect sense that you wouldn't like them! But it wouldn't be fair to swear off all dogs completely. If you met a really well trained dog, you'd see how awesome they can be! So, same thing with subs :)

Your point about extra wires and the hassle of placing them in the room is certainly a valid concern, though. There are some wireless subs out there, and wireless adapter add-ons available, too. But you still need a power cord for each sub, so it's never truly wireless.

Anyways, I'd urge you not to swear off subwoofers entirely. That's no way to live. haha. You'd be depriving yourself of such wonderful bass possibilities! But I totally understand if placement and wires are hassles you don't want to deal with. It can be totally worth it, though ;)

[RRT-NPS]

I am a fan of subwoofers in home theater just not for 2 channel music. This might sound odd since I am always concerned with the bass a speaker is capable of producing. When I want to see if a speaker will work for me, I have to hear how Sade's No Ordinary Love sounds on it. I still get a bit of a chubby recalling the first time I heard a 5" Scanspeak Revelator driver. To this day it is VERY hard for me to not just buy a speaker with revelators and call it a day. However, I have learned (around here) that a speaker is more than just a driver.

[petmotel]

I am not a fan of subwoofers. I find the bass to be artificial sounding and exagerated. It's boomy, which is probably due to the room more so than the sub. Also, it is another cable to have to deal with and hide.

Well this was a thread originated by yourself, your needs are the ones that matter in this thread. For a music only, stereo system in a multi-use environment without a sub, even though the Towers with the RAAL tweeters are the most expensive speaker Ascend produces, it's important to remember what an amazing value these speakers truly are. Value aside, they are exceptional performers, and will likely fulfill your needs, and keep you grinning for a very long time to come.

Ascend, as most of us here are well aware, uses a different business model than the norm in speaker manufacturing. I doubt that you can find another speaker product with the component cost/asking price ratio as absurdly high as their products.

Seems like discussions concerning speakers often end up with the discussion turning to subs. Bass response can be optimized by various means, often times there is more latitude in a stereo system for things such as speaker placement, and prime listener location. Additionally, placement of natural diffusors like bookshelves, and natural sound absorption like rugs, furniture, wall hangings, and drapes, and a good room correction system can achieve very good results.

Jay

[billy p]

What's worse...I ask? Not being able to make a decision or the constant wavering to upgrade what you already have. Sometimes its better to go about it and not leave any doubt. Yup that's what I would do but I'm in a good place with my current setup...fwiw...less of course the sub since its currently missing from my system now!:(

[RRT-NPS]

Well, my decision has been made and my order placed. I just got off the phone with Dina. I purchased Sierra Towers in Black Bamboo with RAAL tweeters. Looking forward to an early December delivery.
Thanks for all the advice.

[FirstReflect]

Woo! Congrats!

I'm happy for you that you went for it. You will be VERY happy with the Sierra Towers RAAL. Do they cost a bit extra? Sure. But, oh, once you hear them...you'll have zero doubts about where that money went, or whether it was worth the extra few hundreds. The Towers RAAL are worth every single penny, plus many, many more on top of that!

The Sierra-2 ought to be wholesaling for $2700/pair. The Towers RAAL ought to wholesale for $4300/pair at least. Instead, Dave sells them customer direct for $1448/pair and $2598/pair, respectively. If we were buying them at a retail store, we'd be paying at least double the wholesale prices that I've estimated! So Ascend's consumer direct prices are, like, just a little over 1/4 of industry standard pricing on speakers that use components of this quality. And you can't even get Ascend's custom drivers in any other speakers, so they're even more of a steal.

Anywho, major congrats on making a decision! It's a GREAT decision, and I am extremely confident that you will have zero regrets about it once your speakers arrive and you get to hear them in person!

[DevL]

Well, my decision has been made and my order placed. I just got off the phone with Dina. I purchased Sierra Towers in Black Bamboo with RAAL tweeters. Looking forward to an early December delivery.
Thanks for all the advice.

I have those EXACT same speakers (Satin Black Towers with RAAL). I also consider this to be my last set of mains I will purchase. I also have a Rythmik F15HP sub and there is no way Id give up my sub for music. No way I'd want a vented sub either, less transient response, more phase shift, etc. My sub is already too loud as is and has to be turned down for Audessy to even do its thing, so a port is pointless IMO. Have you ever heard a well tuned sealed sub? From your description it seems the answer is no. The bass from my sub is far more natural than the bass from the tower... or any speaker.

You WILL be lacking smooth bass response seat to seat getting any pair of towers... or other speaker for that matter. I fully intend to get a second F15HP to even out the possible listening positions in my room. You can not do that with a pair of towers or even a single sub.

I do not feel getting a pair of towers and fully lacking deep bass is in any way a real viable long term solution or more realistic sounding. Once you hear QUALITY bass you will think its as big a revaluation as the RAAL is for the high end. My only recommendation would be to look at 2 F15 as the F15HP excursion and amp power is wasted IMO if you like linear bass response and a pair of F15s is plenty if you don't live in the Taj Mahal.

Oh... and if you feel the RAAL is meh on arrival... pull the grill covers and turn off the A/C fan. Amazing detail I have not heard elsewhere.

[pierreterrier]

RRT-NPS, you made the ultimate choice with your purchase and I totally agree with your assessment about subs in stereo music only applications. Rest assured that if you have the proper acoustic set up in your room you will not need any sub for your stereo enjoyment at all. I have the sierra towers with raals and even so I have a sub I never turn it on when listening to stereo music because the towers have all the bass I ever want and the quality of it is astonishing and that's no bull. For movies on my 5.1 system the sub is always on, for music on my 2.1 stereo system, never.

[billy p]

Yup...looking back that's what I should have done. I'll likely not return the Towers like I did the STC for the move up to RAAL. As for the Towers...well I'm not a huge bass head and they do rather well..thanks...BUT...having been without my sub for about 2 weeks now...I really do miss it for music listening...YMMV.

[pierreterrier]

The more I think about the many folks here saying a sub really helps the bass for music even with the Towers is the issue could be two fold: First the obvious, the room acoustics may be lacking. Like I see many pics here with towers laying right there on tile floors, I mean how could anyone hope to achieve good sound on surfaces like that. But what also might be a huge factor in that bass evaluation of the Towers is the fact that I listen to my music on analog VINYL only while most here do so on digital CD or whatever digital feed is available nowadays. And that is a HUGE difference in sound overall, nothing digital will have the depth of analog. There is also a warmth to the sound which is significant in the bass department. Instead digital is cold, just like the tiles :) Plus of course what's your amp quality like? And are you using 10 gauge speaker wires? All those things will add up in overall bass reproduction. All that to say with my setup the Towers by themselves are king for bass and if they are not for some, it's most likely not because of the Towers. Hope that helps.

[RRT-NPS]

Now that I have made up my mind on the speakers, I would LOVE to save some money on the amp, since I kinda blew my wad on the RAAL Towers.
I was going to go with the Peachtree Nova125 ($1499) or The NovaPre/Nova220 ($1698). However, I see that the towers are 4 ohm speakers and the Decco65 puts out 65 in to 8ohms and 95w into 4ohms. Would that do the towers justice or should I stick with my original plan?

Thanks.

[Kisakuku]

The more I think about the many folks here saying a sub really helps the bass for music even with the Towers is the issue could be two fold: First the obvious, the room acoustics may be lacking. Like I see many pics here with towers laying right there on tile floors, I mean how could anyone hope to achieve good sound on surfaces like that. But what also might be a huge factor in that bass evaluation of the Towers is the fact that I listen to my music on analog VINYL only while most here do so on digital CD or whatever digital feed is available nowadays. And that is a HUGE difference in sound overall, nothing digital will have the depth of analog. There is also a warmth to the sound which is significant in the bass department. Instead digital is cold, just like the tiles :) Plus of course what's your amp quality like? And are you using 10 gauge speaker wires? All those things will add up in overall bass reproduction. All that to say with my setup the Towers by themselves are king for bass and if they are not for some, it's most likely not because of the Towers. Hope that helps.

Yes, deep analog VINYL automagically gets rid of room modes and drops F3 from 35Hz to 20Hz. How long are your 10 gauge speaker cable runs?

[pierreterrier]

15 feet each.

[curtis]

I'll throw my two cents in about subwoofers and bass reproduction...

As good as the Towers are, their bass can not match a good and well integrated subwoofer(s).

On their own, the Towers are great for most music, and a quality well integrated sub will not hurt them...it will only enhance the overall presentation.

[rsmt2000]

Yes, deep analog VINYL automagically gets rid of room modes and drops F3 from 35Hz to 20Hz

Is this really true? or is there a sarcasm in it ??

[Peabody]

Is this really true? or is there a sarcasm in it ??
I am fairly certain (ok, 100% sure) that this is intense sarcasm. :eek:

[curtis]

Is this really true? or is there a sarcasm in it ??
I'll answer for him....pure sarcasm. 10 gauge cables at 15 feet would add to that.

Oops...Peabody beat me to it.

[FirstReflect]

Is this really true? or is there a sarcasm in it ??

That's some heavy sarcasm. See the word "automagically"? That's not a typo ;)

When I first got all my custom Ascend speakers. Some folks might recall me writing that the first thing that jumped out at me was how great the bass coming from my custom Sierra Horizon RAAL Front Main speakers was. I'm usually all about noise floor, detail, transients and realism. So for me to notice the bass first really means its something special!

So I don't blame the folks who are saying they feel the Towers do all that they want in the bass. The bass produced by the Towers IS very impressive indeed! Some might recall that I thought it was so good, it had me considering using a much lower crossover frequency than I had planned.

But that was before I had everything in its final placement, and before I had played some bass sweeps, and calibrated. After going through the full process of setup, there's simply no way that the bass output of my custom Sierra Horizon RAAL speakers - as truly amazingly good as it is just in terms of what is coming out of the speakers themselves - can equal the results of crossing them over to my pair of ideally positioned and calibrated subwoofer in my room, across all 3 seats.

So, to be clear, I'm not saying a single bad thing about the bass output of the Towers. I was shocked by how good it is. But, as I've repeated here, it's not just the speakers themselves in play. You cannot avoid the effects of room acoustics. You cannot place Towers in the ideal locations for bass while maintaining proper placement for the Front Main channels at the same time. And, as amazing as the bass if the Towers is, it does not extend linearly to below 20Hz, it starts to roll off around 40Hz

Does any of that mean they cannot sound phenomenal with 2-channel music? Absolutely not! I could easily listen to my custom Sierra Horizon RAAL Front Mains by themselves and find the sound extremely pleasing!

The only thing I take issue with is saying that the Towers all on their own is the "ultimate" way to listen, or that subwoofers are somehow undesireable. That's just not the case.

Certainly, there ARE subwoofers out there that are inferior to the bass output by just the Towers. And poor placement of a sub can make things sound worse instead of better. There's definitely quite a bit of effort that must go into selecting and setting up subwoofers that will enhance what the Towers can do in a room. So it's not "plug and play". And if your situation does not allow for proper subwoofer placement and integration, I can fully agree that the Towers all on their own might actually sound better. But they are not the ultimate setup for bass. There's room for some small improvement. And a pair (or quad) ideally placed, very good subwoofers can deliver that improvement. I have the setup to prove it :)

[natetg57]

I think this thread is a good example of the wide variety of tastes and opinions we have in our hobby. These setups get very personal to us because of the amount of time we spend picking out components, upgrading, setting up and listening to them. And I think that most of the time as we get used to our own particular setup it progressively sounds better and better to us. We really need to allow others to have their own opinions and views without imposing what we view as 'fact' on them.

[petmotel]

Now that I have made up my mind on the speakers, I would LOVE to save some money on the amp, since I kinda blew my wad on the RAAL Towers.
I was going to go with the Peachtree Nova125 ($1499) or The NovaPre/Nova220 ($1698). However, I see that the towers are 4 ohm speakers and the Decco65 puts out 65 in to 8ohms and 95w into 4ohms. Would that do the towers justice or should I stick with my original plan?

Thanks.

Is there any particular reason you are interested in the Peachtree equipment? A much less expensive A/V receiver will provide plenty of power for your needs. I can't see the value added by the more expensive electronics which will sound the same as any other gear which measures comparably. Plus the A/V receiver will probably include some type of room correction, and bass management, which will be usefull when all of these folks talk you into a sub LOL!

Jay

[Erik]

Now that I have made up my mind on the speakers, I would LOVE to save some money on the amp, since I kinda blew my wad on the RAAL Towers.
I was going to go with the Peachtree Nova125 ($1499) or The NovaPre/Nova220 ($1698). However, I see that the towers are 4 ohm speakers and the Decco65 puts out 65 in to 8ohms and 95w into 4ohms. Would that do the towers justice or should I stick with my original plan?

Thanks.

When I saw Decco65 specs you mentioned, I thought about this post from Dave

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?5511-best-amp-for-sierra-1nrt&p=46095#post46095

Just the first part where he talks about current capabilities. Not sure I know enough about the subject to say that this is the case with the Decco65, but it definitely gives me some pause and would research further before purchasing.

Other amps that I have seen, and the one I own, double the power output when the speaker impedance is 1/2.

[pierreterrier]

Why handling a discussion like this in such childish fashion, all that's achieved is giving a bad name to high end audio tech nerds. Usually this blog is better than that. Gotta go listen to some music now, definitely beats talking about it by a mile...

[davef]

Guys, the no sub / sub argument is an interesting one. For over ten years I worked side by side with the man often credited with starting the subwoofer revolution, there were times I preferred listening to music with a perfectly integrated high performance subwoofer and there were times I preferred to listen without a subwoofer. 15 years later, I still have the same experience -- sometimes I prefer with and sometimes I prefer without... No rhyme or reason, just personal preferences that change often.

[mapmn006]

Nice choice! :)

975

Also here is an interesting article on subs (and the "need" for two)...

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/stereo-subwoofers.htm

[pierreterrier]

I had read the Ken Rockwell article posted above a while back when debating sub(s) for my stereo system. Reading it again today, this part where he debates the one vs two subs for stereo really stood out for my application:

"Summing the bass to mono is not optimum for stereo music reproduction, unless you have a recording that already has had its bass summed into or mixed as mono. Most music recordings have been released with stereo bass since 1982."

So since most of my record collection spans from the mid 60s to the early 80s I understand better why all my bass seems to come from dead center between the speakers just like from a sub. They are like 12 feet apart and you could swear there is an imaginary sub sitting right in the middle between them. And that's partly why I like the sound of the bass so great with my Towers. Simple as that. It feels like I have a sub there so it saves me from the difficult task of integrating a hi tech sub (or two) into my system. I am now even more glad that this was my music era, thanks to Ken for that info I had overlooked. But I get it, perfectly well integrated subs (if you can get there) would only enhance any system, just not worth the hassle and expense in my case.

[RRT-NPS]

I've changed my mind, I am going to cancel my order on the towers and wait for the Sierra-2 to ship....... and no, I won't be using a sub.

[natetg57]

I'm with ya RRT-NPS, I thought about ordering Raal towers and Horizon but cannot justify the expense for my budget. It also pains me tha I would have to lose so much on selling my three Sierra-1's. I am, though, really excited about upgrading my front three to Sierra-2's!

[RRT-NPS]

I'm with ya RRT-NPS, I thought about ordering Raal towers and Horizon but cannot justify the expense for my budget. It also pains me tha I would have to lose so much on selling my three Sierra-1's. I am, though, really excited about upgrading my front three to Sierra-2's!

Yeah I can't justify the expense. I love music and all but I just can't bring myself to let go of almost 3K. When I decided to purchase a system, I budgeted $850 for Sierra-1. I had no idea there was even a Sierra-2 being planned and didn't want to spend what the towers cost. Here I am after a few weeks on the forum not only going for towers, but upgrading to the RAAL. Suze Orman would not be pleased. LOL!

I loved my Sierra-1 and I am sure I will love the Sierra-2. I am spending a little more than originally planned but at least I get to experience that RAAL ribbon that everyone seems to be creaming over.

[ats_phd]

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/stereo-subwoofers.htm

I never anticipated Ken Rockwell into speaker systems.