In wall rears?

[EnigmamAtt]

All

I am currently looking at purchasing some speakers. Planning to do a 4.1 system with a phantom center in a 18x18 or so room with 12 ft ceilings. Hardwood floors.

Had been planning to do the b&w cm5's in front with their built in cwm652's in the rear. From what I've read the Sierra 1's are a better speaker than the cm5 for the money. But what I cannot figure out is what type of rears I would match with them? I have to do in walls in the rear and I don't see any on ascend's website.

What would folks here recommend? By way of reference the cwm652s are abut 250 ea and I would like too be in same price range. I will be powering with a marantz sr5008 already purchased.

Thanks
Matt

[P Seastrand]

Someone in the past suggested mounting the 200's in the wall since they don't have any rear port. I don't know how successful that was, however.

[FirstReflect]

I hope I don't tick off too many folks here with what I'm about to say. I just want to be very honest, though. I only ever try to offer the advice that I would want to receive myself if I were asking the question :)

To EnigmamAtt, I have to say, your room - from your description - sounds like it will be a very challenging acoustical environment. You didn't make any mention of acoustically treating your room, or having it designed specifically for audio, so I'm making the assumption here that the room is basically "as is", as you described it, and for that reason, I have to recommend that you carefully select speakers that can help to compensate for your challenging room acoustics.

When you have a very open room with lots of hard, reflective surfaces, it can be very difficult to get clear, detailed, pleasing sound. You have to be aware that what you end up hearing at your seat is a combination of the direct sound that is coming out of the speakers, plus the reflected sound that is bouncing around your room before it reaches your ears. Clarity and detail come from having a rather high ratio of direct sound to reflected sound. In other words, the more reflections you're hearing, the more you are "hearing your room", rather than hearing the speakers themselves. There's a balance to be struck between direct and reflected sound. No reflections at all sounds very strange - very "dead" and "dry". But too many reflections sounds "diffuse" and "muddy", or, at worst "unintelligible" and "echoey".

All of this is to say, in your particular room - as you've described it - I would highly recommend that you choose speakers that are more highly directional. In other words, speakers that tend to "beam" their sound straight forward a little more, rather than casting out a very wide and even dispersion of sound to their sides, top, and bottom. With a more directional speaker, you will reduce the reflections by virtue of more of the sound energy being directed straight at you to begin with. And that will help to keep the sound clearer and more detailed at your seat.

Most of Ascend's speakers have very wide and even dispersion. In a better acoustic environment, this is a great benefit as it allows for a much larger "sweet spot", and helps to keep the imaging and soundstage very realistic and uniform throughout the listening area. But listening in your home is about the combination of the speakers and the room. They have to work as a team; they are a system. So, as fantastic as Ascend's speakers are, I do not look at it as a "one size fits all" situation. We must match the characteristics of the speakers to the room in which they will be used. And in this particular situation, I think you would be better served with more directional speakers that have a narrower dispersion of sound.

While they are not as accurate and transparent in my opinion, I have found the GoldenEar Technology speakers to work particularly well in challenging acoustical environments: http://www.goldenear.com/ The folded ribbon tweeter that they use produces fairly strong directionality. And they do offer in-wall and in-ceiling models, as well.

My natural inclination is to most highly recommend that you wait for Ascend's Sierra-2 model to become available. While the RAAL ribbon tweeter in the Sierra-2 will have unusually wide horizontal dispersion for a ribbon tweeter, it will have the more limited vertical dispersion that is inherent in a planar driver design. More than that, though, it will have the tremendously rapid decay time of a RAAL ribbon, meaning that, when the signal in the recording says to stop producing sound, that RAAL ribbon stops on a dime, with almost no residual movement from the inertia of the driver. That cleanliness of output means clearer, more detailed sound, as well.

The only issue is that the Sierra-2 will cost more, and there's still no matching in-wall option. So that brings me back to the GoldenEar recommendation. If you can at least track down a GoldenEar dealer in your area and try an audition, at the very least, I think you'll find them worth consideration.

Another good option that I would recommend would be the Martin Logan ElectroMotion and Motion Series speakers: http://www.martinlogan.com/product-list.php These also use a folded ribbon tweeter, and Martin Logan offers in-wall, in-ceiling, and on-wall Surround models.

And a final option that I'll throw out there would be the HSU Research horn-loaded speakers: http://hsuresearch.com/speakers.html These are less expensive, and use a more traditional tweeter, but their horn-loaded design makes them more directional, and the efficiency will be a help in your size of room, too.

Just to be clear, I'm a huge Ascend Acoustics fan. I'm a loyal customer. And I personally believe there's no higher value in performance for the dollar than Ascend. But that does not mean that Ascend is the 100% best choice for every single situation. I think the Sierra-2 would be your very best choice for a pair of Front Main bookshelf speakers. But that means waiting, and paying a higher price. Totally worth it on both counts, but it's a consideration, is all. And then there will be the matter of getting in-wall surrounds. You won't be able to get a perfect sonic match to the Sierra-2. Personally, I'm completely ok with the Surround speakers not being a 100% perfect sonic match. Their job is primarily ambience, envelopment, and the occasional sound effect. They don't need to be a flawless sonic match to achieve that. Using one of the Martin Logan models as your surround speakers along with the Ascend Sierra-2 as your Front Mains would work very well, IMO.

But, if you want all of your speakers right away, you want to keep the price within the budget that you've mentioned, and you want all of your speakers to come from the same brand and match in terms of the drivers and design that is used, then I offer the recommendations that I've listed above.

I hope that will be of some help :)

[billy p]

Hey Rob...I'd just like to say that your posts are always well thoughtout & offer all OP's a wide variey of options with plenty of details to mull over...I know this from having read many of you helpful posts over at the audiholics web site under your FR user name...You've always spoke highly of the all the Ascend product lines and often recommended them to OP... if they fit within their requirements and/or budget...I can only agree having come from a quad pole design with a more defused sound & tend to have wider dispersion pattens....I now prefer a more directional speaker for surrounds... overall it lends itself better for both music and HT....IMO.

Cheers, Bill....

[FirstReflect]

Thanks, Bill!

Yes, since I have this confusing screen name thing going on here (I guess I really should get in touch with the forum masters here, and see about changing my screen name on this forum :p ), just to clarify, my name is not "Jonathan", it's Rob H. I picked this "jonathan_teller" screen name on this forum many, many years ago. I go by the screen name FirstReflect most everywhere else, although, similar situation, I used FirstReflection over at the Audioholics forum (which I've neglected for far too long now, but...time!). At least that name is close enough that most folks can easily put 2 and 2 together -- haha.

Anywho, screen names...yeah -- haha. Sorry for the confusion :p

[RicardoJoa]

I thought the sierra1 has really good center image. My experience with them is that, as long as they are positioned correctly , they always have a pretty focus center image. What i mean correctly, is that they arent as sensitive as my other pairs of speakers which require pulling out from walls or spread apart. I can put my sierra on my TV console spread apart about 6 feet and not worry whether they are pull from the front wall, and the center image seems is always there. Wouldnt that make them a great phantom set up?

[davef]

All

I am currently looking at purchasing some speakers. Planning to do a 4.1 system with a phantom center in a 18x18 or so room with 12 ft ceilings. Hardwood floors.

Had been planning to do the b&w cm5's in front with their built in cwm652's in the rear. From what I've read the Sierra 1's are a better speaker than the cm5 for the money. But what I cannot figure out is what type of rears I would match with them? I have to do in walls in the rear and I don't see any on ascend's website.

What would folks here recommend? By way of reference the cwm652s are abut 250 ea and I would like too be in same price range. I will be powering with a marantz sr5008 already purchased.

Thanks
Matt

Hi Matt,

Personally, I think our Sierra-1 would work quite well in this environment. I am using Sierra-1 in my living room, which is 18 feet wide and nearly 30 feet long (open to the kitchen). We have wood floors and the room is quite reflective -- the Sierra-1 perform very well. We are also using in-wall rear speakers (this is mostly the wife and kids TV room ;) )