Need help from Ascend gurus for new setup

[mchrisbrown]

Like many of you guys I'm in search of sound nirvana but need your advice to complete my setup. I've actually already placed my order with Ascend as follows:

Mains - Towers with NRTs - delayed due to cabinet production
Center - Horizon with RAAL ribbon tweeter - Received
Surrounds - CBM 170s - Received
Sub - Rythmik FV15HP - Received from a different source due to production issues (but have one now) - woohoo.

My amp is a Denon AVR-4000 with XT32 Audessy if that matters to any of this

Okay so 90% of this is locked in but I am considering making a change to my front mains from towers to horizons as my front mains for aesthetic and space reasons. I'm thinking I can still make this change since Ascend doesn't have the cabinets for the towers to complete my order. What I'd like to do is place my front left main in horizion format oriented vertically on top of my FV15HP and place a front right horizon on a 24" stand as my front right main. I think this would work great for the following reasons but am seeking validation from others before I call in to change my order.
1. I was originally concerned that placing a front main speaker on top of my sub could possibly cause vibration issues but I've tested this by placing a CBM-170s as a main on top of my FV15HP but really don't see this as an issue. The FV15HP is a beast and the cabinet barely vibrates even at high volumes even when listening to bass heavy material at high volume.
2. I was also concerned about being able to place my sub in an optimal location independent of my mains but in my room this does not seem to be an issue as I've placed a CBM170 on top of my sub in the same location (with the CBM 170 slightly higher of course) and it sounds absolutely awesome.
3. When placed on top of my FV15HP vertically the tweeter and midrange driver of a horizon just so happen to line up perfectly with ear height
4. I've read some posts from Dave that seem to indicate that the Horizons would serve great as mains. He does state the Towers will play slightly lower but with a FV15HP carrying the lower end I really don't think that would be noticed.

So considering all of the above does anyone see a problem or any disadvantage to switching my front mains from towers to horizons? I welcome ALL OPINIONS but would also love to hear from Dave himself if he has any opinions.

Outside of my question I have some general thoughts I'd like to share. Since I'm asking questions I thought it would be appropriate to share some feedback of my own that might be useful to others so here goes. The CBM170s as front mains (temporary for me) in tandem with the FV15HP supplying the low end sounds INCREDIBLE. I know everyone is all about the towers/horizons because we all want the best but I want everyone to understand the that 170s up front with the a big sub (FV15HP) handling the low notes would be an awesome setup for anyone on a budget. Seriously I could could live with this as could 99% of anyone I'm sure. But again, I'm in search of sonic nirvana so can't wait to hear the full setup with towers or horizons as mains.

Final observation - the FV15HP is the best sub I've ever heard - just incredible.

I've drifted a bit so will reiterate the question: Does anyone think I would lose much or anything by using horizons as front mains as opposed to towers?

Thanks
Chris Brown

[Kisakuku]

3. When placed on top of my FV15HP vertically the tweeter and midrange driver of a horizon just so happen to line up perfectly with ear height


Sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea as long as you keep your Horizons, you know, horizontal. I might be misunderstanding something, but it seems like you want to rotate the one sitting on top of the sub from horizontal to vertical orientation, so instead of
W(T/M)W
it becomes
W
T/M
W
which is a bad idea without at least rotating the tweeter 90 degrees. Even then, I'm sure the crossover isn't optimized for this orientation of the baffle and drivers. Just get a short center stand for it that you can put on top of the sub and have the tweeter at ear height. I would recommend checking out Sanus SFC center stands or something similar.

[DevL]

If you move to a new place later on you may find that your sub is going to need to be somewhere other than your mains location or you end up sitting in a null. If you get 2 subs they need to be in opposite corners or opposite walls for the best fill and output, not on the same wall. You are inviting the possibility of nulls for your other listeners by putting the horizons on top of subs. Id go for maximum flexibility and minimized nulls vs. convenient use of the sub as a stand.

Just wondering, why spend all that money on high end gear and leave the main towers as NRT instead of RAAL? I was able to audition a system just like that by a forum member who was gracious enough to let me audition in his home and it solidified my idea to get RAAL on the mains and not just the center as the center was just SO much better than the NRT equipped mains that it just did not make any sense to get the NRT. The owner is also boing to get his towers upgraded to the RAAL to match his Horizon with RAAL. In fact it just killed my interest in any non ribbon tweeter in my set up. I am now waiting on cabinets to get RAAL equipped towers to go with my F15HP and Denon X4000 and will get Sierra 2 for my surrounds.

[RicardoJoa]

IMO, i think a tower set up will look much better then the horizon on top of the sub. You may save some space, but the problem is that one of your mains is sitting on top of the sub while the other is on top of a stand. I have some thing like that in my sytem due to limited space and i will tell that i would rather have my monitor to either sit on a pair of subs or a pair of stands. One of each will look odd IMO

[mchrisbrown]

I really appreciate everyone's opinions here as I really want to get this right. So you guys have me reconsidering my decision to go from towers to horizons as mains so I'll see if I can maybe make something work with the towers but I need to ask a couple of more questions please?

What is the length and width of the tower base (longest dimensions if not a perfect rectangle)?
Could I put the sub behind the left front main tower with the sub facing perpendicular to the speaker (side of sub against the back wall and backed into a corner)?

Thoughts?

Thanks very much for the help,
Chris

[mchrisbrown]

Just wondering, why spend all that money on high end gear and leave the main towers as NRT instead of RAAL? I was able to audition a system just like that by a forum member who was gracious enough to let me audition in his home and it solidified my idea to get RAAL on the mains and not just the center as the center was just SO much better than the NRT equipped mains that it just did not make any sense to get the NRT. The owner is also boing to get his towers upgraded to the RAAL to match his Horizon with RAAL. In fact it just killed my interest in any non ribbon tweeter in my set up. I am now waiting on cabinets to get RAAL equipped towers to go with my F15HP and Denon X4000 and will get Sierra 2 for my surrounds.

DevL,
I struggled very hard with my decision between RAAL and NRT for my mains. Some opinions seem to indicate that the NRTs are so good the difference is barely noticeable. Others indicate that the ribbons are so good that they are must have. I really wish I could hear the difference and decide for myself but I have to rely on the opinions of other. Those of you have heard both - how big of a difference is there?

I'm probably 70/30 Home Theater and below is a quote from Dave that led to my making the call for RAAL in the center and NRT for the fronts:

If my priority was towards home theater, I would go left/right domes with RAAL center (if my budget would allow) I know that seems like a mismatch -but-, the RAAL ribbon has more linear horizontal dispersion than the dome (big advantage for the center) and dialogue is smoother and more natural sounding, never harsh or fatiguing. Timbre matching is excellent.

I am actually watching Kung Fu Panda 2 with dome towers and the RAAL center right now (kids are here at the office with me now) This combination is excellent -- lively enough to satisfy that requirement while also giving me some of that RAAL magic for dialogue.

I think you are making a good choice. It is not a problem if you would like to change to the dome but you need to let us know ASAP as your cabinet is scheduled to be cut for the RAAL tomorrow. Once cut, there is no turning back...

[Kisakuku]

What is the length and width of the tower base (longest dimensions if not a perfect rectangle)?
Could I put the sub behind the left front main tower with the sub facing perpendicular to the speaker (side of sub against the back wall and backed into a corner)?


The tower bases have the same dimensions as the TP-24 stand bases, which are listed on the site as 10" wide x 14" deep.

Nothing prevents you from trying out this arrangement, but it might or might not be a good position for the sub in terms of its frequency response at the main listening position. Also, if the sub is right behind the left tower, it might present some issues for the tower's rear port.

[mchrisbrown]

Sweet! The skies have parted and I have been shown the light. Prior to yesterday I had my mind set on having my subwoofer in the front of my room near the front speakers. Due to space constraint issues last night I tried moving the sub to right beside the primary listening/watching couch. I was totally blown away by how much more punch and power I could feel from the sub. I'm not talking about an incremental increase; the difference was really unbelievable and I had one of those awesome "aha" moments when you just know something is right. So now my sub sounds great and is also an end table. I also have all the room I need up front so I can stay with the towers - I love it when a plan comes together.

One side question now: I have the cone of the sub facing directly into one wall about 8 inches from the wall and about a foot from the corner. Is this an acceptable practice? I'm not used to pointing speakers into a wall but it sounds great. I could rotate the sub 180 degrees and the cone would be pointing towards the couch but I often lay on the couch with my head on the side armrest of the couch. This would mean I'd have an FV15HP pushing out bass 5" from my head and that doesn't sound like a good idea?

Lessons learned:
1 Audessy is great but it can't substitute for proper sub location
2 Sub placement is easier to determine (at least for me) without big fronts that can produce great bass. Since I don't have my towers yet I was using the CBM-170 as fronts so the bass load was being carried by the sub and I could really tell what was going on from a sub perspective. I think if I had the towers it would have "disguised" some of what I learned by moving the sub around because I'd have more bass coming from more directions. Now obviously I want all of those joyous deep notes that will be coming from my towers. I'm just saying that for specifically for setup and sub placement using fronts that don't go as deep can be helpful.

Can't wait for my towers! Still considering the possibility of going to RAALs to match my center.

[DevL]

I was able to listen to 340, Sierra tower with Nrt and Horizon with RAAL. The Nrt was a huge amount better than the 340. A mediocre tweeter to a very good tweeter. The RAAL is IMO at least that big a jump again. It god beyond sounding like an excellent tweeter and sounds like real life. Best way I can explain it. Not having a RAAL is just not an option for me. If Ascend quit offering the RAAL Id just go to another manufacturer. I was expecting them to sound similar from reports I heard. It was not even close. The Nrt is mild, subdued and a little warm IMO. The RAAL is not similar in any way other than it is producing the same frequencies. Doint short yourself... get the RAAL.