HT 5.1 setup help

[PlayMovie]

I have been reading this forum and the ascend and Aperion threads on avsforums for a few months now. I am pretty much a beginner and do not have a lot of knowlege about audio.

I am now thinking of putting together a 5.1 system and later plan to expand it to a 7.2 system. My main interest is to build a dedicated media room which will be used for movies and maybe a little bit of music. I have in the past owned a Jamo 5.0 system with Jamo tower speakers and it served my
purpose when I used to live in an apartment.

I want speakers that can produce clear dialogues and produce the best surround sound effects. The speakers should be able to maintain clarity even when I crank up the volume without any distortion.
I have narrowed down my choice to Aperion or Ascend, i got an opportunity to audition the Aperion Grand Verus 5.1 system recently and liked them a lot. I have read a lot of very good reviews about Ascend but have not got a chance to listen to the speakers would love to listen to them if someone has these in the Dallas area.


My Media Room: 19 (H) x 17 (W) x 10 (H)
Usage: 95% Home Theater 5% Music

I will have to install my projector and screen along the width of the room as I have a recessed window along the length of the room.

Below are my choices (prices below include shipping)

Option 1



Speaker
Model
Price $


Front Left
Sierra-1
$467


Front Right
Sierra-1
$467



Center
Sierra-1 Center
$498


Surround
CMT-170
$330


Subwoofer
Rythmik F12SE
$1056


Receiver
Denon AVR-3312CI(accessories4less.com)
$565


Total $3383

Option 2



Speaker
Model
Price $


Front Left
CMT-340 SE
$304


Front Right
CMT-340 SE
$304



Center

[td]$324


Surround
CMT-170
$330


Subwoofer
HSU VTF2-MK4
$596



Receiver
Denon AVR-3312CI(accessories4less.com)
$565


Total $2423


Option 3



Speaker
Model
Price $


Front Left
Sierra Tower
$1047


Front Right
Sierra Tower
$1047



Center
Sierra Horizon
$1098


Surround
CMT-170
$330


Subwoofer
Rythmik F12SE
$1056


Receiver
Denon AVR-3312CI(accessories4less.com)
$565


Total $5143



I have been debating between these options and have not been able to make a decision especially because I have not gotten a chance to hear the difference between the 3 Ascend choices I have above.
The price difference option 1 and 2 isnt that much but the difference between 2 and 3 is almost double. Would option 3 give me twice the clarity and performance than option 2 ?
Also if were to go with option 3 will I need an invest in an amp to drive those speakers ?

I welcome all your valuable suggestions.

[curtis]

Did you hear a Verus Grand Bookshelf or Tower system?

Clarity is only one aspect of a speaker's performance. To say that a system costing twice as much as another will give you twice the clarity isn't realistic.

IMO...with your room and intended use, which is mainly home theater, I would suggest option 2, and put more money into a larger subwoofer such as the Rythmik FV15HP. Your room is not small and would benefit from a subwoofer with more output like the FV15HP.

The Denon you have chosen is fine for this setup.

That said, the Sierra Tower and Horizon are superior speakers, but what I would suggest to you is to go out and to listen to as many speakers as you can so that you understand differences and that pricing to performance is not a one to one ratio.

If money is not an issue, than option 3 is the best setup, but I would still suggest you opt for the FV15HP instead of the F12SE. Not the same sound quality of the F12 (though close), but far more output.

[PlayMovie]

Curtis - Thank you for your quick response. I heard both the Verus Grand Tower and the Verus Forte towers. I auditioned these speakers at the Aperion office when I visited Portland recently. The Verus Forte though clear did not have the punch the Verus Grand had.

My initial plan was to go with one F12SE and later when i upgrade, add the rear speakers and another F12SE sub. Do you think this would work best or just having one F15HP would be a better option ?

Is there a particular reason you suggested option 2 over option 1, is it because the Sierra-1's are better for music than for home theater use ?

[curtis]

Curtis - Thank you for your quick response. I heard both the Verus Grand Tower and the Verus Forte towers. I auditioned these speakers at the Aperion office when I visited Portland recently. The Verus Forte though clear did not have the punch the Verus Grand had.

My initial plan was to go with one F12SE and later when i upgrade, add the rear speakers and another F12SE sub. Do you think this would work best or just having one F15HP would be a better option ?

Is there a particular reason you suggested option 2 over option 1, is it because the Sierra-1's are better for music than for home theater use ?
It was for budget reasons. If you are concentrating on home theater, the budget is better spent on option 2, and an FV15HP(not to be confused with the F15HP). In your space and use, the FV15HP would be the better choice....and later adding another FV15HP to smooth out the room response.

In any of your options, I would recommend the FV15HP over the Hsus or sealed Rythmiks.

[JustABrah]

Some of your wants will have a connection with your AVR, clear dialog, surround sound and not distort at high volumes, about a year ago I ab Denon, Yamaha, Marantz and Anthem and the Anthem was in a league of its own, I would suggest looking at other option than Denon. Anthem really uses it surround sounds and gives you that bubble effect but also maintains a very clear dialog and doesn't distort, since there's a new model of the MRX to be announced next month you should beable to find a MRX-300 on sale, I ended up buying a Cambridge but I might still get the Anthem.

If you could swing LCR Horizons that's what I'd do, even better if you could do the raal tweeters even if that means getting your rears later. Since your into movies have 3 of the same fronts would be the best option. I know you'd be happy option 1 just upgrade the tweeters to raal or NrT and look at changing your AVR.

[FirstReflect]

Ahh yes. Putting together your first, high-end 5.1 system is always a challenge! There are SO many options out there.

Now, here's the thing: you clearly want to do this "right". And you want to do it once, without feeling as though you wasted a single penny.

Audio is a bit tricky. In video, there are very clear standards. Each primary and secondary colour has specific co-ordinates that we can measure with a spectrophotometer and/or colorimeter. There is a specific mix of those colours that is used to give us our white point and grey scale. The gamma is specified. White and black levels are specified. It's all very clear and standardized, and we can measure and see exactly how close we get to the standards. There's a clear "right" and "wrong" in video.

Not so with audio, though. Rooms are different. Playback equipment is different. And recordings -- oh recordings. They vary wildly. On the recording side, you have the recording engineers, the mixers, the mastering engineers. Each of them has a different setup, and the very same recording comes out of each stage sounding different -- sometimes dramatically different. There's no clear "target" to aim for with your home sound system. No clear specifications for exactly what it should sound like, or how it should measure. And all of those guys on the recording side? They are obsessed with "translatability", which is to say, they are WELL aware that people will be listening to their finished product on a huge array of playback systems: from car audio, to crappy earbuds, to nearfield desktop or computer systems, to multi-million dollar hi-fis. And they want their recording to sound "good" on all of them! Not "the same", obviously. But "good".

So, all of this is to say, personal taste is a perfectly valid consideration in audio. There's no definitive "right" or "wrong". BUT THAT SAID, there's a certain level of simple technical proficiency upon which I think most of us can agree.

The recording, whatever it may be, is sending out a signal. And that signal is saying, "play this note, for this duration, at this loudness". Any deviation in the reproduction of those commands is a form of distortion.

BUT HERE'S THE RUB: there is MEANT to be some distortion -- namely, distortion of that original signal in the form of a some amount of room reflections.

If you imagine a "perfect" speaker and amplifier system -- one that introduces no distortion what-so-ever to the original signal in the recording -- those speakers still have to send their sound out into a room. And thus, some portion of those sound waves will bounce around that room prior to reaching your ears.

There is such a thing as a room with no reflections. It's called an anechoic chamber. They are used for taking the most accurate measurements of the output of speakers possible. But they are a horrible listening environment!

You see, as humans, we are constantly taking in information about our surroundings. Subconsciously, we are always listening for reflections, which we use as audio cues to tell us about our surroundings. It is a bit like sonar. It is how, with your eyes closed, you could walk into a room and sense whether it is very small, or very large. Or if it has no ceiling. Or if you're in a wide open field.

A total lack of reflections means that we have no audio cues. And when all audio cues are gone, we get disoriented! People actually often feel nauseated if they stand in an anechoic chamber. It feels as though your ears need to "pop". And our "fight or flight" response kicks in, because a lack of reflections means that we have no objects close by to provide protection. It means we are totally exposed, and that causes us to panic!

So reflections from a room are absolutely necessary! BUT, too many reflections, or reflections that are too strong, start to distort the sound that comes out of your speakers too much. We can have literal echoes. Or we can simply have "smearing" of the sound -- where the direct sound coming straight from the speakers to our ears interacts with reflections that arrive at our ears only a few milliseconds later, and our brain "merges" them together into one, indistinct sound. This is often the cause for dialogue being difficult to understand, or for making it difficult to delineate the sound of one instrument or voice from another.

So, before we even talk about speakers and amps, we need to think about the room! The room is a huge component of your sound system! Personally, I say it's a full 50%. The exact same speakers played in different rooms can sound very different. Just think of playing your speakers inside a tile bathroom vs. a large living room. Same speakers. VERY different sound.

You have a dedicated room. That is fantastic news! But we've no idea how much thought, effort, or budget you've put into the acoustics of that room.

Now, like I've said, there's still no "right" or "wrong". There are a lot of different theories out there as to what makes the "ideal" acoustic environment. Personally, I fall into the camp of believing it is best to keep a fairly high ratio of direct sound to reflected sound, and to attempt to keep delay times relatively similar to one another across the entire audible frequency range. We are not eliminating ALL reflections nor ALL distortion of the original signal in the recording. But we are creating a fairly high ratio of non-distorted sound to distorted sound in this way. We keep enough of "the room's inherent sound" intact so that we do not become disoriented. But we reduce much of the room's distorting effects.

I'd like to recommend a couple of YouTube videos that demonstrate what I'm talking about very well:

RealTraps small room video: http://youtu.be/dB8H0HFMylo

GiK/Zolan Schuster high-end room video (subtitled): http://youtu.be/D66v5JC0eVk

Also, it is best to listen to the before-and-after music demonstrations twice each. Once on a playback system that can reproduce the deep bass, and a second time on a playback system with the bass below 200Hz cut out so that you can really hear the difference in the midrange and treble without the bass masking it. You'll notice that the before-and-after differences in the bass are HUGE. But, for that exact reason, it's important to also listen with the bass removed so that you aren't distracted by the huge change in the bass, and can focus on the midrange and treble instead, where there are also very noticeable differences!

Again, exact same speakers before-and-after, but the room has changed. And when you're talking about wanting the utmost in clarity, I think you'll realize very quickly just how important the room really is!

So, I'll let you digest all of this before getting into speaker and sub recommendations :) I say that because it might affect your budget!

As has been said, the Sierra Tower and Horizon are straight up better speakers than the SE series. But, personally, if I were looking for the best clarity and detail, I would MUCH rather have the CMT-340SE speakers in a room that has good acoustics (according to my weaker reflections, even decay times philosophy) vs. the Sierra Towers in a bad acoustic environment. Naturally, if money were no object, I'd take the best speakers and put them in the best room! haha. But you've indicated that money IS a concern -- or at least a factor. So this discussion of room acoustics might affect your speaker purchase decision!

If you'd like more advice regarding room acoustics, and how much it might cost to acoustically treat your room, I would HIGHLY recommend that you talk with the good folks over at GiK Acoustics. You can make use of their FREE Room Analysis (http://gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice/) , and be given specific advice for your room, as well as indications of what it might cost for, at the very least, the most vital treatments. It's free, so why the heck not, right? :)

Anywho, let's have a go at this part of your system first, and then we'll get to your speakers and subwoofers after. I know this is not your original question. But it's clear that you want to "do this right", so this is the way to come at it!

Enjoy :)