Ascend acoustics needs surround seapkrs to match the sierra towers

[BrianBoru]

I have inquired about this previously, and told just to use one of the other speakers not designed to match the towers. But, I am not alone in wanting to have a matched set for surround sound. I was reminded of this recently by the following post from someone trying to decide whether or not to get the Towers:

3. Ascend Acoustics RAAL Towers

Why am I considering Ascend if I have a $15K budget? They use the same RAAL tweeter as the Salks, they are easier to drive, ready to ship, and cost THOUSANDS less. In addition the center is IMHO a steal considering it is a 3-way design, fairly robust, and has the RAAL tweeter. Plenty of good reviews on these as well.

The cons I see are the fact there is no matching surrounds (really Ascend??), they are not as full range as the others, and obviously they use less costly parts. I would imagine the crossover, cabinet, and midrange drivers are not in the same league as the others but I could be wrong. I'd assume the others weigh 2-3 times as much for a reason.

The questions is do they perform 90% as well as the others at 1/4 the cost?

[JustaSheep]

What would a matching surrounds consist of? Are you asking for a 2-way bookshelf speaker that performs as full range as the towers? FWIW, I've heard it said repeatedly that all in the Ascend line are designed to match tonally for integration purposes.

Ascend has made custom Sierra-1's with RAAL tweeters, if this is what you are referring to. There is also a new one in design that may better match your needs.

[curtis]

I would imagine the crossover, cabinet, and midrange drivers are not in the same league as the others but I could be wrong. I'd assume the others weigh 2-3 times as much for a reason.
I wonder how you have come to these conclusions...

Which speaker specifically are you comparing the Sierra Tower to?

The crossover is top notch...but I am not sure how you want compare here. The cabinet is excellent, and I have seen the SongTower in person. The Sierra Tower is much more rigid (primarily due to the use of bamboo and not MDF), and fit/finish is at least on the same level. As for the weight...the Sierra Tower is a bit smaller, and bamboo weighs less....and there is not a 2-3 times difference in comparison to the SongTower.

[Kisakuku]

I wonder how you have come to these conclusions...

Which speaker specifically are you comparing the Sierra Tower to?


I think the OP is quoting somebody else's AVS post.

[davef]

I have inquired about this previously, and told just to use one of the other speakers not designed to match the towers. But, I am not alone in wanting to have a matched set for surround sound. I was reminded of this recently by the following post from someone trying to decide whether or not to get the Towers:

3. Ascend Acoustics RAAL Towers

Why am I considering Ascend if I have a $15K budget? They use the same RAAL tweeter as the Salks, they are easier to drive, ready to ship, and cost THOUSANDS less. In addition the center is IMHO a steal considering it is a 3-way design, fairly robust, and has the RAAL tweeter. Plenty of good reviews on these as well.

The cons I see are the fact there is no matching surrounds (really Ascend??), they are not as full range as the others, and obviously they use less costly parts. I would imagine the crossover, cabinet, and midrange drivers are not in the same league as the others but I could be wrong. I'd assume the others weigh 2-3 times as much for a reason.

The questions is do they perform 90% as well as the others at 1/4 the cost?

Hi Brian,

What is your definition of a matching surround? All of our loudspeakers work extremely well with each other. If you are referring to a bi-pole or di-pole surround, it is not going to happen as these designs do not fit within our performance philosophy (nor would they properly match a direct firing loudspeaker even if it used identical parts). The Sierra-1 NrT match up extremely well with the NrT towers, and the Sierra-1 with RAAL ribbons match up with the Ribbon Towers.

As far as your other comments:


The cons I see are the fact there is no matching surrounds (really Ascend??),

I completely disagree.. We have a rather wide selection of speakers to be used as surrounds at nearly all price points.


they are not as full range as the others

Which others? You can not defy the laws of physics, our towers are 30-75% smaller than most of these others yet they actually come quite close to the bass response of these others, and even surpass a few ;) Adding a Rythmik subwoofer gives you bass that no full range loudspeaker at any price can match…


and obviously they use less costly parts.
How does one draw that conclusion? We can charge less for our towers because, frankly, we DO NOT purchase our parts from Madisound or Parts Express. We purchase our drivers in very large volumes direct from the manufacturer, there is no middle man. Frankly, it is a bit ridiculous when an ID audio company claims to eliminate the retail markup when they themselves are paying that retail markup by purchasing their components from a retailer, and thus paying a retail markup which absolutely gets transferred to the consumer ;)

We have been around long enough and have enough industry contacts and resources that allows us to purchase in large volume quantities direct from the manufacturers themselves.


I would imagine the crossover, cabinet, and midrange drivers are not in the same league as the others but I could be wrong.
Definitely wrong.... In fact, our crossovers are just as complex (and considerably more so than a few of these competitors), they use metallized polypropylene capacitors and heavy gauge air-core inductors. Our crossovers are also not messily put together on a piece of wood – we use custom tooled high grade epoxy resin PC boards (quite expensive actually). Our cabinet is made from layered bamboo which is 5-10x more expensive than any grade of MDF and this material is also far superior in every way that matters for audio. Have you ever done a comparison between knuckle wrapping our cabinets against these competitors? I have ;)


I'd assume the others weigh 2-3 times as much for a reason.
The reason why they weigh more is that they are considerably larger and are made with MDF + Veneer. Bamboo weighs less and we don’t use veneer and all the glues that are associated, yet this bamboo is considerably stiffer, less resonant and offers much faster settling times.

The difference in making these comparisons is that we pay less for our components, not because they aren't as good, but because we can. Combine that with a profit margin that is also less than our competitors, and you have the Sierra Towers :)


The questions is do they perform 90% as well as the others at 1/4 the cost?
Only an individual listener can decide which speakers they prefer. I can say without hesitation that our Sierra Towers have the highest satisfaction rate of any product we have ever manufactured, in fact, higher than any product I have personally ever been involved with. We can't even build them fast enough and RAAL has had to change their manufacturing procedures just to accommodate our demand. The real question one should be asking is, "Why do these others cost so much more” ;)

[Kisakuku]

Dave, like I said above, the OP just quoted somebody else's post from AVS (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1419393/).

[BrianBoru]

For me, and others, like the one I quoted, the other speakers in the Ascend line do not adequately match the Sierra Towers. They use completely different drivers and, presumably, different crossovers. While I have also heard the claim that "all in the Ascend line are designed to match tonally", that does not mean that they match well. I would think going from a RAAL tweeter to any other would be quite noticeable as sound moved between speakers.

You say that Ascend has made custom Sierra-1's with RAAL tweeters, but I see no mention of this on the website. The best they offer there is an NrT Upgrade. So, it would be nice if one of the Ascend guys would confirm your report, and even to post such upgrades on the website.

But, I am afraid that even an upgraded Sierra-1 would not work for me as a surround speaker in my home theater. I need to put surround speakers on the side walls, where patrons walk down the aisles to their seats. The Sierra-1 with grill will stick out about a full foot into the aisle. This would be an unacceptable obstruction, not to mention looking very bulky on the wall.

I am looking for a surround sound speaker group that does not have such deep cabinets for the surround speakers. A bookshelf speaker is fine on a bookshelf or a stand, but would not work well on my walls. The closest thing Ascend has to a better profile for surrounds is the HTM-200 SE HOME THEATER MONITOR. However, this is clearly a vastly different type of speaker than the Sierra series, with vastly different sonic characteristics, no matter how well they try to match the tonal quality.

What I am hoping is that Ascend Acoustics will eventually recognize a market for better matching and more versatile (in placement) surround speakers for the their superb Sierra Towers. Although the box of the HTM-200 SE is probably too small for a Sierra speaker, it could be enlarged (in height), while keeping the same depth in order to make it more friendly for wall placement. Naturally, one would also want the driver's (e.g. the RAAL) to match the Sierra's as well.

[curtis]

Have you found any other company that meets your product/surround criteria?

[DavidR]

You say that Ascend has made custom Sierra-1's with RAAL tweeters, but I see no mention of this on the website. The best they offer there is an NrT Upgrade. So, it would be nice if one of the Ascend guys would confirm your report, and even to post such upgrades on the website.
Such options have been discussed in threads on this forum, but you're right, they're not on the website. I'm assuming that's because they're custom configurations made mostly as one-off's. I'm sure that if you called Ascend or sent Dave a PM, he'd be willing to discuss custom options to satisfy your needs. I'm guessing custom also means rather more expensive, but that's up to you to decide if it's worth the price.



What I am hoping is that Ascend Acoustics will eventually recognize a market for better matching and more versatile (in placement) surround speakers for the their superb Sierra Towers. Although the box of the HTM-200 SE is probably too small for a Sierra speaker, it could be enlarged (in height), while keeping the same depth in order to make it more friendly for wall placement. Naturally, one would also want the driver's (e.g. the RAAL) to match the Sierra's as well.
Perhaps something like this would be what you're looking for? http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?4914-Sierra-Horizon-(Sierra-Tower-Center)&p=44183#post44183
Since it's front ported, I'm assuming it can be placed right up against a wall with no ill effects. The thought occurs to me that one could even recess into the wall cavity to save a few more inches.

-- Dave

[GirgleMirt]

The cons I see are the fact there is no matching surrounds (really Ascend??)

There is a surround which is perfectly matched to the RAAL and NrT speakers; http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/horizon/horizon.html Now yes, sure, they're big, but hey, if you want the same drivers, you require the internal volume, I guess the size could be reduced a little by say dropping a woofer, but if you can't fit Sierras anyhow, what were you expecting, RAAL to design a whole new mini-RAAL tweeter, a whole new mini-mid and a whole new mini-woofer to fit in a mini Sierra surround? lol Sorry but that does not make much sense ;) I just wouldn't work; you can't make things (speakers) smaller and expect them to work the same.

Maybe from a marketing perspective yeah sure, B&M companies often have 10 different speakers with drivers reaching from 3 inch to 12 inches, but practically, you don't really need 12 flavors of the same speaker... 1 small 2 way, 1 medium 2 way, 1 small 2.5 way, 1 medium 2.5 way, 1 small 3 way, 1 medium 3 way, 1 large 3 way with 3 bass woofers,1 large 3 way with 3 larger bass woofers, etc. You need to design, order, build, etc., all those different parts, all of that costs a lot of $$$, and in the end it must be reflected on prices... Realistically, I don't think it's a great idea... Better focus on 1 great speaker than 10 average ones...


You say that Ascend has made custom Sierra-1's with RAAL tweeters, but I see no mention of this on the website. The best they offer there is an NrT Upgrade. So, it would be nice if one of the Ascend guys would confirm your report, and even to post such upgrades on the website.
Btw, Davef = Ascend, the main man, the guy with the wizard hat who waves his magic wand and makes all those nice little speakers appear ;) From start to end; design, production, testing, etc., Ascend is his company! :D

[FirstReflect]

I'm going to chime in on both sides of this discussion :)

First, I totally agree that for any casual fan who is just visiting Ascend's website, it certainly is not obvious that Dave is totally willing to make custom speakers for his customers. And I think that is totally fair! Ascend has their lineup of speakers, that's, by far, the bulk of what keeps them in business. But it should be known that custom speakers CAN be made by Ascend. I've certainly taken advantage of Dave's willingness, personally!

Second, the Sierra-1 with the NrT tweeter are pretty much a perfect match as Surround speakers for the standard Sierra Tower and Horizon, which use the same NrT tweeter. One thing that is not abundantly clear on the website, though, is that you can use the Sierra-1 close to a wall by buying the Q-Plugs that go in the rear port. The Q-plugs do show up in the "Buy Ascend Now" area, but they really are not promoted on the main website - not even listed in the "accessories" area. So that could be improved, I think :)

Third, the Sierra-1 can, indeed, be customized to use the same RAAL 70-20XR tweeter as the Sierra Tower RAAL and Horizon RAAL. The Sierra-1 can also be customized to use the RAAL 70-20XR tweeter AND the same mid-range driver as the Sierra Tower and Horizon! The Sierra-1 using the RAAL ribbon tweeter and Sierra Tower mid-range start to roll off up around 90Hz, though. So they are not bass-capable speakers. If you want a perfect mid-range and treble match, though, this is entirely possible. It IS a custom speaker, though, and you have to contact Ascend directly in order to buy it. You won't find it on the website, so it's not for casual fans ;)

Fourth, if the Sierra-1 bookshelf form factor just doesn't work for you (and I can totally understand situations where it wouldn't), now you're into the territory of ordering a fully custom speaker from Ascend. And Dave seems entirely open to such projects! He certainly made a far bigger effort than I ever expected when I asked about building a "skinny" Horizon Center speaker for me!

But the bottom line is that you can contact Ascend directly, tell them exactly the form factor that you want, and I'm sure Dave will make every effort to figure out a custom designed speaker that will work for you!

Fifth - this is where I flip over to the other side of the discussion!

I do agree that a dedicated Surround speaker - with a form factor that would more easily go on, or near, a wall - would be a great addition to Ascend's standard lineup of speakers! The HTM-200SE works very well as an option for CBM-170SE and CMT-340SE speaker owners. But I honestly agree that a dedicated Surround form factor speaker to match the Sierra, Sierra NrT, and Sierra RAAL series of speakers could potentially be a hot seller, and make it easier for casual fans to put together a 5 or 7 speaker package right on the regular website.

Not everyone is comfortable with requesting custom speakers. And certainly not everyone who visits the Ascend website would know that custom speakers are even possible! The Sierra-1 bookshelf form factor will not work for everyone in the Surround positions - even with the Q-Plugs providing near-a-wall placement options.

Not only that, but "on-wall" speakers are certainly a very hot trend right now! Again, the HTM-200SE are a great, lower cost, "on-wall" option. But an "on-wall" Sierra series speaker would be a great addition, I think :)

The thing is, it's a lot more work for Dave than some people might imagine. You can't just plunk the standard Sierra-1 drivers in a flatter, sealed box and call it a day!

But I have to say, I think it would be a worthwhile project. I think it would further increase Ascend Acoustic's sales. Perhaps when Dave completes the Sierra-2 bookshelf, this could be his next project? A speaker that could be to the Sierra series speakers what the HTM-200SE is to the SE series speakers. I think there's some logic and attractiveness to that idea, at least :)

[BrianBoru]

jonathan_teller replied: (abbreviated)

.....
Fifth - this is where I flip over to the other side of the discussion!

I do agree that a dedicated Surround speaker - with a form factor that would more easily go on, or near, a wall - would be a great addition to Ascend's standard lineup of speakers! ..... But I honestly agree that a dedicated Surround form factor speaker to match the Sierra, Sierra NrT, and Sierra RAAL series of speakers could potentially be a hot seller, and make it easier for casual fans to put together a 5 or 7 speaker package right on the regular website.
...
Not only that, but "on-wall" speakers are certainly a very hot trend right now! Again, the HTM-200SE are a great, lower cost, "on-wall" option. But an "on-wall" Sierra series speaker would be a great addition, I think

The thing is, it's a lot more work for Dave than some people might imagine. You can't just plunk the standard Sierra-1 drivers in a flatter, sealed box and call it a day!

But I have to say, I think it would be a worthwhile project. I think it would further increase Ascend Acoustic's sales. Perhaps when Dave completes the Sierra-2 bookshelf, this could be his next project? A speaker that could be to the Sierra series speakers what the HTM-200SE is to the SE series speakers. I think there's some logic and attractiveness to that idea, at least.
___________________________

Thanks Jonathan for seconding my proposal. It also seems to me that lower profile dedicated surround speakers in the Sierra line would draw more prospective customers to Ascend systems. In particular, it seems like only a minor variant on your custom center would work well for me and others. In particular, you have a

"Skinny" Horizon Center speaker: 11" tall x 40" wide () x 7.5" deep () - front slot ported. RAAL ribbon tweeter. Tweeter above the mid-range driver (just like standard Horizon). Matte Black finish.

If Dave could make this just a little less deep (at 6.0 ") and a little longer, say 50 inches, it would have the same volume and be more attractive as a lower profile Sierra Horizon for both center, right, left, and surround sound speakers. Though I am not sure if all the Sierra drivers would fit in such a narrow depth cabinet :-). If they do, they might even be aligned vertically through a common axis for vertical placement, as in the towers. And, I believe that the RAAL tweeters though would have to be rotated 90 deg between horizontal center and vertical placements for optimal dispersion.

Now that I have learned that Dave will do custom speakers, I have to ask him if he considers this proposal feasible as a custom job. I would want 6 of these configured vertically to comprise 4 surrounds and 2 rear speakers; along with 3 Sierra Towers for the fronts and center behind my screen.

[avsnoob10]

Interesting Sierra .5: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?3898-Sierra-5

[dougand]

Sadly that thread hasn't been touched in 3 years. A Sierra .5 might just give me an option to avoid in-walls.

[davef]

jonathan_teller replied: (abbreviated)

.....
Fifth - this is where I flip over to the other side of the discussion!

I do agree that a dedicated Surround speaker - with a form factor that would more easily go on, or near, a wall - would be a great addition to Ascend's standard lineup of speakers! ..... But I honestly agree that a dedicated Surround form factor speaker to match the Sierra, Sierra NrT, and Sierra RAAL series of speakers could potentially be a hot seller, and make it easier for casual fans to put together a 5 or 7 speaker package right on the regular website.
...
Not only that, but "on-wall" speakers are certainly a very hot trend right now! Again, the HTM-200SE are a great, lower cost, "on-wall" option. But an "on-wall" Sierra series speaker would be a great addition, I think

The thing is, it's a lot more work for Dave than some people might imagine. You can't just plunk the standard Sierra-1 drivers in a flatter, sealed box and call it a day!

But I have to say, I think it would be a worthwhile project. I think it would further increase Ascend Acoustic's sales. Perhaps when Dave completes the Sierra-2 bookshelf, this could be his next project? A speaker that could be to the Sierra series speakers what the HTM-200SE is to the SE series speakers. I think there's some logic and attractiveness to that idea, at least.
___________________________

Thanks Jonathan for seconding my proposal. It also seems to me that lower profile dedicated surround speakers in the Sierra line would draw more prospective customers to Ascend systems. In particular, it seems like only a minor variant on your custom center would work well for me and others. In particular, you have a

"Skinny" Horizon Center speaker: 11" tall x 40" wide () x 7.5" deep () - front slot ported. RAAL ribbon tweeter. Tweeter above the mid-range driver (just like standard Horizon). Matte Black finish.

If Dave could make this just a little less deep (at 6.0 ") and a little longer, say 50 inches, it would have the same volume and be more attractive as a lower profile Sierra Horizon for both center, right, left, and surround sound speakers. Though I am not sure if all the Sierra drivers would fit in such a narrow depth cabinet :-). If they do, they might even be aligned vertically through a common axis for vertical placement, as in the towers. And, I believe that the RAAL tweeters though would have to be rotated 90 deg between horizontal center and vertical placements for optimal dispersion.

Now that I have learned that Dave will do custom speakers, I have to ask him if he considers this proposal feasible as a custom job. I would want 6 of these configured vertically to comprise 4 surrounds and 2 rear speakers; along with 3 Sierra Towers for the fronts and center behind my screen.

Hi Brian,

I like your idea... One of the issues with making a "skinny" speaker with the RAAL 70-20xr is the depth of the tweeter itself. This is really a beast of a tweeter and quite deep, but after evaluating, I do think 6" cabinet depth with 70-20 (or just slightly more) might be possible.

Please send me an email or private message so we can discuss :)

Thanks again!

[GirgleMirt]

What happened to that grill?! :eek:

[davef]

What happened to that grill?! :eek:

LOL -- that is just one of our "dummy" tweeters that we use for the ribbon cutouts. It is just an empty shell -- no internals :)